Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire

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  • Reply 1621 of 1665
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post


    An SD (Secure Digital) card is a removable memory card that is primarily used to capture photos in digital cameras. I am unaware as to whether an SD slot can be repurposed for any kind of system expansion a la ExpressCard, but I don't think so.



    The fact that the newer versions of SD (SDHC) are being increasingly adopted by most video camera makers instead of MiniDV tape, 8cm discs or internal hard drives is probably the factor that pushed Apple to adopt the slot over the rival CompactFlash format.



    Two birds, one slot.



    That seems likely. The SD slot isn?t a replacement for the EC/34, but if it?s true that ExpressCard was being used by less than 1% of their userbase than the removal is understandable. I?d have preferred another USB port over the SD card slot, but it?s not my company.
  • Reply 1622 of 1665
    iqatedoiqatedo Posts: 1,829member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    There was no room on the last design which meant something had to go, which meant the obsolescing FW400 port. The MBPs still had FW800 and the MB never had FW800. They have removed the latched battery/HDD bay which means there is more side area to place ports while increasing the battery size and maintaining their aesthetics. As it?s been stated many times before, If the 17? MBP?s built-in battery was a success then the other uni-body Macs would get it and FW800 would be added.



    Others will jump on you (and me ) for saying this but I at least agree. There was just simply no where for another port to go in the design that included a removable battery. Building the battery in, with the lesser constraints on the particular housing and even the shape, made room I think for other features, in this case, the FW800 port and the SD card slot.



    I think that the SD card slot will prove prescient, typical Apple.



    All the best.
  • Reply 1623 of 1665
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,600member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post


    The D80 and D90 both use SD cards. I know a $1000 camera isn't "pro", but in terms of sheer numbers, there must be more of them out there.



    Not to mention, almost every consumer digicam uses SD now. Even Sony and Olympus are starting to abandon their stupid MS and XD formats.



    A few D-SLR's do, but the majority don't.



    But as I said, a cheap adapter will allow SD's to go in a CF slot without projecting more than about 3/8", while the opposite isn't true.



    I always think the bigger adapter is better because it allows compatibility. It's disappointing that Apple would go for the lowest common denominator here, rather than the higher end solution that would allow both.



    After all, they sell so many adapters for their own exclusive connectors that selling one from one standard to another shouldn't be so difficult.
  • Reply 1624 of 1665
    frank777frank777 Posts: 5,839member
    Just read a comment posted under the MacWorld story on the new laptops.



    The poster speculates that the SD card slot could better position Apple to abandon the CD drive entirely.

    That's a really good point.
  • Reply 1625 of 1665
    benroethigbenroethig Posts: 2,782member
    They would be really stupid to do so at this point.
  • Reply 1626 of 1665
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,600member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post


    Just read a comment posted under the MacWorld story on the new laptops.



    The poster speculates that the SD card slot could better position Apple to abandon the CD drive entirely.

    That's a really good point.



    I don't get that. An SD slot has less advantage in that area than do USB drives.
  • Reply 1627 of 1665
    hudson1hudson1 Posts: 800member
    I think time is showing Firewire to be of greater lasting need than ExpressCard. Many of those using EC34 had wireless 3G modems. Those are almost universally replaceable with USB devices now.
  • Reply 1628 of 1665
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,600member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post


    I think time is showing Firewire to be of greater lasting need than ExpressCard. Many of those using EC34 had wireless 3G modems. Those are almost universally replaceable with USB devices now.



    Firewire's worth will extend for a couple of years more. Past that, most users will have no use for it, especially if Apple does the right thing and includes E-SATA with power over the line and a 6 Gb/s data rate.
  • Reply 1629 of 1665
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    I don't get that. An SD slot has less advantage in that area than do USB drives.



    SanDisk is happy with the news. A little reprieve after throwing in the towel last week against the iPod. Perhaps Apple sees a future more than the current use here implies. I certainly don?t get it.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post


    I think time is showing Firewire to be of greater lasting need than ExpressCard. Many of those using EC34 had wireless 3G modems. Those are almost universally replaceable with USB devices now.



    Hopefully we?ll see 3G cards built in to the notebooks with the next revision.
  • Reply 1630 of 1665
    hudson1hudson1 Posts: 800member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Firewire's worth will extend for a couple of years more. Past that, most users will have no use for it, especially if Apple does the right thing and includes E-SATA with power over the line and a 6 Gb/s data rate.



    With all due respect, history has taught me to be skeptical of all future predictions of people finding no use for Firewire. Also, my point had more to do with the greater perceived need for Firewire versus EC34.
  • Reply 1631 of 1665
    frank777frank777 Posts: 5,839member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Firewire's worth will extend for a couple of years more. Past that, most users will have no use for it, especially if Apple does the right thing and includes E-SATA with power over the line and a 6 Gb/s data rate.



    I see no evidence that the audio industry is preparing to move to eSATA with power.

    Until they do, Apple will have to include FW on the Pro machines.



    And Apple's not doing both, so eSATA will likely remain out in the cold.
  • Reply 1632 of 1665
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,600member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post


    With all due respect, history has taught me to be skeptical of all future predictions of people finding no use for Firewire. Also, my point had more to do with the greater perceived need for Firewire versus EC34.



    I have no problem making this prediction.



    Before there was no good alternative for some of the more important services FW offers. Now there are several. It's also easy to see that the main source of FW's requirement on a computer, camcorders, are quickly moving away from FW and to USB. That will only occur more rapidly once USB 3 comes out next year. HDDs that were dependent on FW for external use as SCSI faded, are moving to E-SATA even without power over the line. That will also increase next year once E-SATA 3 with power over the line is available.



    So what is the future for FW? I don't see one for MOST people's needs.



    As for the comparison to EC34, it doesn't matter, both are likely on the way out.
  • Reply 1633 of 1665
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,600member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post


    I see no evidence that the audio industry is preparing to move to eSATA with power.

    Until they do, Apple will have to include FW on the Pro machines.



    And Apple's not doing both, so eSATA will likely remain out in the cold.



    The audio industry will move to USB 3, as they have moved, in fits and starts, to USB 2. USB 3 solves the problems that USB still has, which is mostly in the area of speed.



    E-SATA, as you should know, is for mass storage, not for passing signals between one device and another, such as a midi keyboard, guitar, etc.
  • Reply 1634 of 1665
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 15,443moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    I had hundreds of professional customers who used digital going back years. The truth is I never had someone tell me of a problem with a CF card or slot caused by an incorrect insertion that damaged either.



    While it obviously happens, it happens rarely. It isn't a reason to not want to use CF cards.



    I imagine if the slot is designed as tightly as it could be, the chances of a fault occurring would be slim. Nonetheless, I think overall the design of SD cards is better although I admit I find them a bit too small sometimes.



    As I say, it's perhaps about pushing the standard as opposed to just supporting the most popular one. I for one would love to see write-protected Flash media take over from optical storage - it just takes up far too much space.



    HD-DVD managed to get by with 15GB so with proper encoding, you could similarly get away with 16GB flash cards. Right now, these cost £30 vs £4 for a 25GB BD-R. SDXC should arrive by the end of the year in 64GB+ capacities, hopefully bringing a price cut.



    If they manage to bring the price of a 16GB card down to £4 by halving the price every 6 months, by early 2011, Apple or someone else could try to emerge a new digital content distribution format - a format that works on mobile devices too. Flash drops 60% annually according to Samsung:



    http://www.engadget.com/2007/04/25/s...-anytime-soon/



    As good as networks get, shuffling around 16GB per movie isn't going to be doable for a while. Perhaps in VOD services for streaming but not in the cases of small businesses showing off work to clients. Major upload bandwidth is required.



    It could be an open standard just like H264 and no license fees. Basically just dump an H264 movie onto an SD card and it's supported as well as having hardware accelerated playback.



    The beauty of the plan is that you don't have to convince people to buy expensive drives as a lot of people already have them on their computers.



    If I had $20 billion in the bank, this is what I'd spend a significant portion doing. Making a loss-leading digital content distribution format to end all formats and manage to get your logo on every disc/card. That's mind-share for you.
  • Reply 1635 of 1665
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,600member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    I imagine if the slot is designed as tightly as it could be, the chances of a fault occurring would be slim. Nonetheless, I think overall the design of SD cards is better although I admit I find them a bit too small sometimes.



    As I say, it's perhaps about pushing the standard as opposed to just supporting the most popular one. I for one would love to see write-protected Flash media take over from optical storage - it just takes up far too much space.



    HD-DVD managed to get by with 15GB so with proper encoding, you could similarly get away with 16GB flash cards. Right now, these cost £30 vs £4 for a 25GB BD-R. SDXC should arrive by the end of the year in 64GB+ capacities, hopefully bringing a price cut.



    If they manage to bring the price of a 16GB card down to £4 by halving the price every 6 months, by early 2011, Apple or someone else could try to emerge a new digital content distribution format - a format that works on mobile devices too. Flash drops 60% annually according to Samsung:



    http://www.engadget.com/2007/04/25/s...-anytime-soon/



    As good as networks get, shuffling around 16GB per movie isn't going to be doable for a while. Perhaps in VOD services for streaming but not in the cases of small businesses showing off work to clients. Major upload bandwidth is required.



    It could be an open standard just like H264 and no license fees. Basically just dump an H264 movie onto an SD card and it's supported as well as having hardware accelerated playback.



    The beauty of the plan is that you don't have to convince people to buy expensive drives as a lot of people already have them on their computers.



    If I had $20 billion in the bank, this is what I'd spend a significant portion doing. Making a loss-leading digital content distribution format to end all formats and manage to get your logo on every disc/card. That's mind-share for you.



    A couple of decades ago I was telling people that music distribution would be on memory cards. Of course the price and non-volatility was not there yet.



    But, I didn't foresee the internet. CompuServe, which I used, was far different from what we have now.



    It looks to me that the time for card distribution has already passed, despite the cheapness of the present cards, and the much cheaper prices in the future.



    As far as corporate distribution is concerned, I don't see cards as being cheap enough. Manufacturers of memory won't manufacture cards that cost too little, as they can't make money on them. As a CD/DVD disk costs a manufacturer less that 5 cents, it's got an advantage in pricing that flash will never beat. Even BD disks are coming down in price, and will be at that level after a while.



    Possibly for consumers, it will be different. In a couple of years, a 256 GB flash card, slow, but fast enough for the purpose, will cost maybe $30. so consumers may be able to go somewhere and download content directly to the card, but I really don't see it happening.



    I really do believe that CD/DVD/BD will remain the main distribution methods until broadband becomes ubiquitous and fast enough to bypass it at a high enough quality level.



    If flash card sizes and pricing was where it is now 2 years ago, it might have had a chance by now.
  • Reply 1636 of 1665
    mimacmimac Posts: 872member
    Great to see FireWire reinstated! Very sensible move indeed.



    I really wish Apple would get serious about FireWire and reduce or even abolish licensing fees for 800. This would give other manufacturers extra incentive to include the port on their peripherals and ultimately boost consumer awareness of the standard and its distinct advantages, especially with video/audio devices. Continued development of the interface could then gain more momentum.



    Just a thought.
  • Reply 1637 of 1665
    hobbithobbit Posts: 532member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Why cut out the users of the better cameras?



    I don't understand all this complaining about why no Compact Flash card reader?



    Guys, this was never an option! Ever.



    That's like complaining why the new MacBook Pros don't come with a built-in vacuum cleaner.

    It doesn't make sense. It is impossible.



    SD cards are 24mm wide. Compact Flash cards are 42.8mm wide. That is a lot wider. We're not talking a few mm here.



    The only way they would have managed to put a Compact Flash card reader into the 13" MBP is by reducing the width of the battery by 18.8mm, which is likely akin to 1 or 1 1/2 hours of battery life (the battery has to be rectangular).

    Given the choice of a CF reader instead of SD card reader or 1 1/2 hour longer battery life, I can tell you which wins!



    A CF reader was never an option.

    This was unrealistic from the start.





    As to why they added an SD card slot?

    Maybe the new Tablet will use SD card storage?

    Maybe Apple will start selling movies on SD cards?

    Maybe some movie rental service will start renting movies on SD cards?



    There's definitely something SD card related in the making!

    That's my guess.
  • Reply 1638 of 1665
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,600member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hobBIT View Post


    I don't understand all this complaining about why no Compact Flash card reader?



    Guys, this was never an option! Ever.



    That's like complaining why the new MacBook Pros don't come with a built-in vacuum cleaner.

    It doesn't make sense. It is impossible.



    SD cards are 24mm wide. Compact Flash cards are 42.8mm wide. That is a lot wider. We're not talking a few mm here.



    The only way they would have managed to put a Compact Flash card reader into the 13" MBP is by reducing the width of the battery by 18.8mm, which is likely akin to 1 or 1 1/2 hours of battery life (the battery has to be rectangular).

    Given the choice of a CF reader instead of SD card reader or 1 1/2 hour longer battery life, I can tell you which wins!



    A CF reader was never an option.

    This was unrealistic from the start.





    As to why they added an SD card slot?

    Maybe the new Tablet will use SD card storage?

    Maybe Apple will start selling movies on SD cards?

    Maybe some movie rental service will start renting movies on SD cards?



    There's definitely something SD card related in the making!

    That's my guess.



    You don't know if this is true though. Yes, it's wider. But it not wide. If pro cameras can fit two flash slots in there, then Apple could put a CF slot in.



    This is the same argument we had last year about FW.



    Really, If Apple wanted to do it, they would have done it.



    An SD slot makes little sense. They should have stuck with the Express slot.



    I'll tell you the real reason why they did this.



    It's cheaper, and they're lowering the prices. That's why.
  • Reply 1639 of 1665
    Quote:

    An SD slot makes little sense. They should have stuck with the Express slot.



    I think an SD slot makes a lot more sense. I bet there'll be far more people taking the memory card from their digital cameras and putting it in the MacBook than there will be people using the ExpressCard slot. I don't really know of any cameras that use Compact Flash anymore. My dads old camera did, but that all seems to have been phased out now.
  • Reply 1640 of 1665
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,600member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mrochester View Post


    I think an SD slot makes a lot more sense. I bet there'll be far more people taking the memory card from their digital cameras and putting it in the MacBook than there will be people using the ExpressCard slot. I don't really know of any cameras that use Compact Flash anymore. My dads old camera did, but that all seems to have been phased out now.



    I think you guys who favor the SD slot really don't understand what's being lost.



    You can get a $12 adapter for SD cards that fits in the Express slot, just as you can get many other adapters.



    The SD slot is the lowest functioning slot you can get. Apple went to it because it's cheap.



    I'm sorry, but anyone getting an expensive computer should know about adapter cards, or at least should know enough to ask about them as has been done here.



    Despite what some PC users think, the Mac is not the "Computer for Dummies". Or at least it shouldn't be.



    If a computer comes with an Express slot, the purchaser should look at the manual to see what can be done with it.



    No excuse not to know this. An SD slot is no substitute.
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