Like Maemo right. Nokia will be fine and remain number one while Apple will remain #2.
Nokia is so huge, it will be a while before anyone can over-take it.
But after using a G1 for ten minutes, I struggle to think of a single reason why a customer might select a Symbian device over an Android device or the iPhone.
My guess is that we will see a Nokia Android phone within a year.
Well I live in the US. I have had Sprint, Verizon, and Nextel the last 9 years. I have had well over 60 different cell phones personally and am generally considered a cell phone expert by people who know me. I can and have disassembled thousands of cell phones. From 2001-2003 I ran a service where people sent me their cell phones and I modded them, which made me about $20,000 a year in my spare time,
I have never had GSM service (ATT/Tmobile) cause frankly the call quality is horrible and the data network is worse than a 3rd world countries network.
While I have never had ATT/Tmobile, obviously I have known people who have and out of all of them, and out of all random people I have observed on the street, I have not seen a Nokia phone with my own eyes in the last 5 years.
Dear Dueces, The fact that you have only used phones that do not support the GSM standard explains why you know so little. Your "3rd world country" comment cracks me up as many so called 3rd world countries actually have quite advanced mobile phone networks, because they are much quicker and cheaper to install than a landline infrastructure.
I am guessing you belong to a small elite in the US who claim to know about foreign countries because they can see them from their front porch (or maybe on TV)? Of course, if you haven't travelled outside of the US you wouldn't know that your precious Sprint/Verizon/Nextel phones are worthless in Europe.
Oh, and: My wife and I have been t-mobile customers for many years. She is currently using her fourth Nokia phone (we just ordered an LG for her). For me only at&t and t-mobile are viable providers in the US, as I don't want to get a loaner phone every time I go to Europe.
Just for fun: My phone market predictions: Verizon will drive Sprint/Nextel out of business or merge and just leave one CDMA provider in the US. Nokia will lose market share with the Koreans, Taiwanese, and Japanese manufacturers gaining market share. Apple will continue to gain market share. Sony-Ericsson will continue to lose market share.
Nokia is so huge, it will be a while before anyone can over-take it.
But after using a G1 for ten minutes, I struggle to think of a single reason why a customer might select a Symbian device over an Android device or the iPhone.
My guess is that we will see a Nokia Android phone within a year.
C.
You might have a point but then again, you might see something quite interesting from Nokia VERY soon and it's not the Tube or 5800 Music express. I'm just saying.
Grow in what way. You act as is Nokia employees simply come to work everyday and wait to go home. That is the most ridiculous statement I have heard on this forum to date and believe me there have been plenty. Nokia will continue to do what their core biz is: make phones and cellular network infrastructure, and with that, they will continue GROW...... Apple sells one phone, and does this pretty well.
The one thing that the rest of the Appleistas here fail to realize is that Nokia is not going away. EVER. They will still sell their phones and still be the #1 seller in the biz. Apple will continue to be #2. This can be attributed simply to the fact that not everyone wants an iPhone. There are for sure more people that want Nokia's than those that an iPhone. Not to mention those that have had iPhones and went back to their brand (also people leaving their brand for the IPhone so this is probably zero sum gain.). Then you have those like me who are hybrids. I recognize the failings of the iPhone but still have one as well as a Nokia to fill in most of the gaps the iPhone leaves open.
Never really was arguing with that just expressing my opinion as a business owner and that was Apple's upside is far greater than Nokia's. Just as Apple has tremendous growing room to Microsoft's market leading 90%ish. I personally would rather work for Apple or any company in that current situation in the mobile space because it must be exciting just as it was with Nokia coming from nothing to world leader. Just my opinion though and I don't think Nokia will disappear as they will probably be more Apple like (as actually innovating) than your RIMs, Moto, etc.
But after using a G1 for ten minutes, I struggle to think of a single reason why a customer might select a Symbian device over an Android device or the iPhone.
I think because a lot of people want features that the iPhone and G1 don't offer. I want a device to have a standard number keypad and not be very wide, which rules out both options completely. I think this is where Android will have a huge advantage as it will find itself in all sorts of different devices with different screen and keypad layouts, shapes and sizes. I'm looking forward to see what other manufacturers do with Android.
If the market recognizes Android to be a superior platform to Symbian and WinMo, what benefit would there be throwing more money into Symbian?
C.
It's irrational to compare a future concept of the currently incomplete and lackluster Android with the entrenched and well used Symbian platform of today. All evidence points to Nokia spending more time and money to redesign Symbian, than Android is geting from Google and open source devs. This year alone Nokia has openly admitted they are need to revamp and rethink their SW, they bought Symbian and Qt, and are working with Mozilla to port FF3 over. Counting Nokia out of the running now would be a grave error.
PS: With mobile OS X, Android, and Blackberry platforms all adopting WebKit, and with nothing preventing Nokia from also adopting it, Mozilla needs Nokia a lot more than Nokia needs Mozilla who are now woefully behind in the mobile browser market. I assume because of the greater desperation on Mozilla's part, that Nokia probably got an exclusivity for a set duration on mobile FF3 after the Qt porting. (speculation)
It's irrational to compare a future concept of the currently incomplete and lackluster Android with the entrenched and well use Symboan platform of today. All evidence points to Nokia spending more time and money to redesign Symbian, than Android is geting from Google and open source devs. This year alone Nokia has openly admitted they are need to revamp and rethink their SW, they bought Symbian and Qt, and are working with Mozilla to port FF3 over. Counting Nokia out of the running now would be grave error.
The fact that Symbian will be open source is a draw to developers that want to develop for the platform but did not want to purchase all the tools. Once Apple can start matching Nokia daily sales, I will become worried. Till then Apple is just another hardware vender that makes phones. Not that the iPhone is terrible, it is just not great, especially for those of use that are used to a more full featured phone. If the iPhone was marketed as an iPod with phone, no one could complain but as Apple is intent on marketing it as a phone, it will always fall sure of the more established phones until Apple closes the gap.
If Android is going to be that great, why did Apple waste their money writing the iPhone OS, they could have used that as well.
Android is some way behind OS X in terms of software technology. Perhaps as much as 2-3 years.
Android apps are (mainly) running as Java Bytecode. OS X runs native code.
And there is no mobile software development environments that can come close to Cocoa in terms of speed of development.
But the first-generation Android phone is still impressive. Dramatically more so than current WinMo and Symbian devices.
Nokia's market share suggests they are well ahead of a some newbie like Android. But technically they are years behind.
If you want to catch up with Apple and Android, the wrong place to start is with Symbian. For lots and lots of reasons. The only question is; How long will Nokia be prepared to wait, before they figure this out?
If you want to catch up with Apple and Android, the wrong place to start is with Symbian. For lots and lots of reasons. The only question is; How long will Nokia be prepared to wait, before they figure this out?
Maybe you should read some non-apple centric sites, Nokia has already listed details of their future direction (and I'm not referring to the open source Sybmian stuff)
Android is some way behind OS X in terms of software technology. Perhaps as much as 2-3 years.
Android apps are (mainly) running as Java Bytecode. OS X runs native code.
And there is no mobile software development environments that can come close to Cocoa in terms of speed of development.
But the first-generation Android phone is still impressive. Dramatically more so than current WinMo and Symbian devices.
Nokia's market share suggests they are well ahead of a some newbie like Android. But technically they are years behind.
If you want to catch up with Apple and Android, the wrong place to start is with Symbian. For lots and lots of reasons. The only question is; How long will Nokia be prepared to wait, before they figure this out?
C.
I think Nokia as a multi-million pound company is going to have a lot more figured out than you are. I find it rather amusing that you think you know better than they do!
Maybe you should read some non-apple centric sites, Nokia has already listed details of their future direction (and I'm not referring to the open source Sybmian stuff)
Just found the stuff on OMAP3.
Adopting a Linux core is a much smarter move than trying to resuscitate Symbian with a bit of open souce voltage.
It puts them back in the race, but there's a lot of lost ground to catch up.
I think Nokia as a multi-million pound company is going to have a lot more figured out than you are. I find it rather amusing that you think you know better than they do!
What I find funny is how the Appleistas forget that Apple was one Microsoft investment away from the toilet. They were circling the drain for years and Microsoft came in and put in the plug. Funny how times change and memories go blank.
Fact is, Nokia is ramping up to compete with Apple. This alone should be news enough that they are not throwing in the towel. Nokia has not released their TS phone yet but the reviews point to it being a best seller as is the just released N85.
It is a sad commentary on Apple followers that they are so far into fantasy land that they have lost touch with reality.
Fact is, Nokia is ramping up to compete with Apple.
Nokia, the market leader, is ramping up to compete with a company that entered the Mobile market last year. That's a mighty impressive statement.
Fact is, the mobile market is in a phase of transition. It's moving from a market that is all about hardware, to being all about software. And transitions bring change.
Nokia has led this market for a few years. It's made some money. But it has failed to invest in software. Symbian is a dead horse. Thanks to that lack of focus, all that Nokia has is a nascent linux OS and a necrotic mobile OS despised by developers.
Markets like this have no loyalty. Consumers upgrade phones every 18 months. If something better comes along, the entire market-share can vanish in a couple of years. Can anyone remember a company called Palm?
Nokia have no one to blame but themselves. They could have invested in a linux core 3 or 4 years ago. They could have been there before Google or Apple. It's a bit late to start now.
They may be the biggest mobile vendor, but in terms of software, they are Finnish.
Nokia, the market leader, is ramping up to compete with a company that entered the Mobile market last year. That's a mighty impressive statement.
Fact is, the mobile market is in a phase of transition. It's moving from a market that is all about hardware, to being all about software. And transitions bring change.
Nokia has led this market for a few years. It's made some money. But it has failed to invest in software. Symbian is a dead horse. Thanks to that lack of focus, all that Nokia has is a nascent linux OS and a necrotic mobile OS despised by developers.
Markets like this have no loyalty. Consumers upgrade phones every 18 months. If something better comes along, the entire market-share can vanish in a couple of years. Can anyone remember a company called Palm?
Nokia have no one to blame but themselves. They could have invested in a linux core 3 or 4 years ago. They could have been there before Google or Apple. It's a bit late to start now.
They may be the biggest mobile vendor, but in terms of software, they are Finnish.
C.
Some of what you say is true. Nokia didn't have to compete in the US market really because they made a TON of money while almost completely ignoring the US market. Not bad. Now they have decided to compete in this market and that requires them to change and they are in the process. Developers hated Symbian because of the costs involved, the somewhat static way Nokia operated, but now that it is open source, the developers will come and be happy with the new environment. If anything, Nokia has the cash to throw at the problem to fix. You act as though only Apple is able to come up with software ideas. Very myopic.
Comments
Like Maemo right. Nokia will be fine and remain number one while Apple will remain #2.
Nokia is so huge, it will be a while before anyone can over-take it.
But after using a G1 for ten minutes, I struggle to think of a single reason why a customer might select a Symbian device over an Android device or the iPhone.
My guess is that we will see a Nokia Android phone within a year.
C.
Well I live in the US. I have had Sprint, Verizon, and Nextel the last 9 years. I have had well over 60 different cell phones personally and am generally considered a cell phone expert by people who know me. I can and have disassembled thousands of cell phones. From 2001-2003 I ran a service where people sent me their cell phones and I modded them, which made me about $20,000 a year in my spare time,
I have never had GSM service (ATT/Tmobile) cause frankly the call quality is horrible and the data network is worse than a 3rd world countries network.
While I have never had ATT/Tmobile, obviously I have known people who have and out of all of them, and out of all random people I have observed on the street, I have not seen a Nokia phone with my own eyes in the last 5 years.
Dear Dueces, The fact that you have only used phones that do not support the GSM standard explains why you know so little. Your "3rd world country" comment cracks me up as many so called 3rd world countries actually have quite advanced mobile phone networks, because they are much quicker and cheaper to install than a landline infrastructure.
I am guessing you belong to a small elite in the US who claim to know about foreign countries because they can see them from their front porch (or maybe on TV)? Of course, if you haven't travelled outside of the US you wouldn't know that your precious Sprint/Verizon/Nextel phones are worthless in Europe.
Oh, and: My wife and I have been t-mobile customers for many years. She is currently using her fourth Nokia phone (we just ordered an LG for her). For me only at&t and t-mobile are viable providers in the US, as I don't want to get a loaner phone every time I go to Europe.
Just for fun: My phone market predictions: Verizon will drive Sprint/Nextel out of business or merge and just leave one CDMA provider in the US. Nokia will lose market share with the Koreans, Taiwanese, and Japanese manufacturers gaining market share. Apple will continue to gain market share. Sony-Ericsson will continue to lose market share.
Nokia is so huge, it will be a while before anyone can over-take it.
But after using a G1 for ten minutes, I struggle to think of a single reason why a customer might select a Symbian device over an Android device or the iPhone.
My guess is that we will see a Nokia Android phone within a year.
C.
You might have a point but then again, you might see something quite interesting from Nokia VERY soon and it's not the Tube or 5800 Music express. I'm just saying.
Grow in what way. You act as is Nokia employees simply come to work everyday and wait to go home. That is the most ridiculous statement I have heard on this forum to date and believe me there have been plenty. Nokia will continue to do what their core biz is: make phones and cellular network infrastructure, and with that, they will continue GROW...... Apple sells one phone, and does this pretty well.
The one thing that the rest of the Appleistas here fail to realize is that Nokia is not going away. EVER. They will still sell their phones and still be the #1 seller in the biz. Apple will continue to be #2. This can be attributed simply to the fact that not everyone wants an iPhone. There are for sure more people that want Nokia's than those that an iPhone. Not to mention those that have had iPhones and went back to their brand (also people leaving their brand for the IPhone so this is probably zero sum gain.). Then you have those like me who are hybrids. I recognize the failings of the iPhone but still have one as well as a Nokia to fill in most of the gaps the iPhone leaves open.
Never really was arguing with that just expressing my opinion as a business owner and that was Apple's upside is far greater than Nokia's. Just as Apple has tremendous growing room to Microsoft's market leading 90%ish. I personally would rather work for Apple or any company in that current situation in the mobile space because it must be exciting just as it was with Nokia coming from nothing to world leader. Just my opinion though and I don't think Nokia will disappear as they will probably be more Apple like (as actually innovating) than your RIMs, Moto, etc.
But after using a G1 for ten minutes, I struggle to think of a single reason why a customer might select a Symbian device over an Android device or the iPhone.
I think because a lot of people want features that the iPhone and G1 don't offer. I want a device to have a standard number keypad and not be very wide, which rules out both options completely. I think this is where Android will have a huge advantage as it will find itself in all sorts of different devices with different screen and keypad layouts, shapes and sizes. I'm looking forward to see what other manufacturers do with Android.
My guess is that we will see a Nokia Android phone within a year.
I doubt it, considering what Nokia has already publicly stated about the direction they are going in, Android isn't in the picture.
I doubt it, considering what Nokia has already publicly stated about the direction they are going in, Android isn't in the picture.
That's brave, but it's not very rational.
If the market recognizes Android to be a superior platform to Symbian and WinMo, what benefit would there be throwing more money into Symbian?
C.
That's brave, but it's not very rational.
If the market recognizes Android to be a superior platform to Symbian and WinMo, what benefit would there be throwing more money into Symbian?
C.
It's irrational to compare a future concept of the currently incomplete and lackluster Android with the entrenched and well used Symbian platform of today. All evidence points to Nokia spending more time and money to redesign Symbian, than Android is geting from Google and open source devs. This year alone Nokia has openly admitted they are need to revamp and rethink their SW, they bought Symbian and Qt, and are working with Mozilla to port FF3 over. Counting Nokia out of the running now would be a grave error.
PS: With mobile OS X, Android, and Blackberry platforms all adopting WebKit, and with nothing preventing Nokia from also adopting it, Mozilla needs Nokia a lot more than Nokia needs Mozilla who are now woefully behind in the mobile browser market. I assume because of the greater desperation on Mozilla's part, that Nokia probably got an exclusivity for a set duration on mobile FF3 after the Qt porting. (speculation)
It's irrational to compare a future concept of the currently incomplete and lackluster Android with the entrenched and well use Symboan platform of today. All evidence points to Nokia spending more time and money to redesign Symbian, than Android is geting from Google and open source devs. This year alone Nokia has openly admitted they are need to revamp and rethink their SW, they bought Symbian and Qt, and are working with Mozilla to port FF3 over. Counting Nokia out of the running now would be grave error.
The fact that Symbian will be open source is a draw to developers that want to develop for the platform but did not want to purchase all the tools. Once Apple can start matching Nokia daily sales, I will become worried. Till then Apple is just another hardware vender that makes phones. Not that the iPhone is terrible, it is just not great, especially for those of use that are used to a more full featured phone. If the iPhone was marketed as an iPod with phone, no one could complain but as Apple is intent on marketing it as a phone, it will always fall sure of the more established phones until Apple closes the gap.
That's brave, but it's not very rational.
If the market recognizes Android to be a superior platform to Symbian and WinMo, what benefit would there be throwing more money into Symbian?
C.
And you mention the major word, if.
In Symbians main markets, Windows Mobile is next to none existent, and Android doesn't exist at all.
If Android is going to be that great, why did Apple waste their money writing the iPhone OS, they could have used that as well.
Nokia wants control over what they are doing, writing their own software is the best way of doing that.
And you mention the major word, if.
In Symbians main markets, Windows Mobile is next to none existent, and Android doesn't exist at all.
If Android is going to be that great, why did Apple waste their money writing the iPhone OS, they could have used that as well.
Nokia wants control over what they are doing, writing their own software is the best way of doing that.
True, but also that Symbian will be Open Source which will increase the developer ranks.
If Android is going to be that great, why did Apple waste their money writing the iPhone OS, they could have used that as well.
Android is some way behind OS X in terms of software technology. Perhaps as much as 2-3 years.
Android apps are (mainly) running as Java Bytecode. OS X runs native code.
And there is no mobile software development environments that can come close to Cocoa in terms of speed of development.
But the first-generation Android phone is still impressive. Dramatically more so than current WinMo and Symbian devices.
Nokia's market share suggests they are well ahead of a some newbie like Android. But technically they are years behind.
If you want to catch up with Apple and Android, the wrong place to start is with Symbian. For lots and lots of reasons. The only question is; How long will Nokia be prepared to wait, before they figure this out?
C.
If you want to catch up with Apple and Android, the wrong place to start is with Symbian. For lots and lots of reasons. The only question is; How long will Nokia be prepared to wait, before they figure this out?
Maybe you should read some non-apple centric sites, Nokia has already listed details of their future direction (and I'm not referring to the open source Sybmian stuff)
Android is some way behind OS X in terms of software technology. Perhaps as much as 2-3 years.
Android apps are (mainly) running as Java Bytecode. OS X runs native code.
And there is no mobile software development environments that can come close to Cocoa in terms of speed of development.
But the first-generation Android phone is still impressive. Dramatically more so than current WinMo and Symbian devices.
Nokia's market share suggests they are well ahead of a some newbie like Android. But technically they are years behind.
If you want to catch up with Apple and Android, the wrong place to start is with Symbian. For lots and lots of reasons. The only question is; How long will Nokia be prepared to wait, before they figure this out?
C.
I think Nokia as a multi-million pound company is going to have a lot more figured out than you are. I find it rather amusing that you think you know better than they do!
Maybe you should read some non-apple centric sites, Nokia has already listed details of their future direction (and I'm not referring to the open source Sybmian stuff)
Just found the stuff on OMAP3.
Adopting a Linux core is a much smarter move than trying to resuscitate Symbian with a bit of open souce voltage.
It puts them back in the race, but there's a lot of lost ground to catch up.
C.
I think Nokia as a multi-million pound company is going to have a lot more figured out than you are. I find it rather amusing that you think you know better than they do!
C.
C.
And that seals the deal!
And that seals the deal!
What I find funny is how the Appleistas forget that Apple was one Microsoft investment away from the toilet. They were circling the drain for years and Microsoft came in and put in the plug. Funny how times change and memories go blank.
Fact is, Nokia is ramping up to compete with Apple. This alone should be news enough that they are not throwing in the towel. Nokia has not released their TS phone yet but the reviews point to it being a best seller as is the just released N85.
It is a sad commentary on Apple followers that they are so far into fantasy land that they have lost touch with reality.
Fact is, Nokia is ramping up to compete with Apple.
Nokia, the market leader, is ramping up to compete with a company that entered the Mobile market last year. That's a mighty impressive statement.
Fact is, the mobile market is in a phase of transition. It's moving from a market that is all about hardware, to being all about software. And transitions bring change.
Nokia has led this market for a few years. It's made some money. But it has failed to invest in software. Symbian is a dead horse. Thanks to that lack of focus, all that Nokia has is a nascent linux OS and a necrotic mobile OS despised by developers.
Markets like this have no loyalty. Consumers upgrade phones every 18 months. If something better comes along, the entire market-share can vanish in a couple of years. Can anyone remember a company called Palm?
Nokia have no one to blame but themselves. They could have invested in a linux core 3 or 4 years ago. They could have been there before Google or Apple. It's a bit late to start now.
They may be the biggest mobile vendor, but in terms of software, they are Finnish.
C.
Nokia, the market leader, is ramping up to compete with a company that entered the Mobile market last year. That's a mighty impressive statement.
Fact is, the mobile market is in a phase of transition. It's moving from a market that is all about hardware, to being all about software. And transitions bring change.
Nokia has led this market for a few years. It's made some money. But it has failed to invest in software. Symbian is a dead horse. Thanks to that lack of focus, all that Nokia has is a nascent linux OS and a necrotic mobile OS despised by developers.
Markets like this have no loyalty. Consumers upgrade phones every 18 months. If something better comes along, the entire market-share can vanish in a couple of years. Can anyone remember a company called Palm?
Nokia have no one to blame but themselves. They could have invested in a linux core 3 or 4 years ago. They could have been there before Google or Apple. It's a bit late to start now.
They may be the biggest mobile vendor, but in terms of software, they are Finnish.
C.
Some of what you say is true. Nokia didn't have to compete in the US market really because they made a TON of money while almost completely ignoring the US market. Not bad. Now they have decided to compete in this market and that requires them to change and they are in the process. Developers hated Symbian because of the costs involved, the somewhat static way Nokia operated, but now that it is open source, the developers will come and be happy with the new environment. If anything, Nokia has the cash to throw at the problem to fix. You act as though only Apple is able to come up with software ideas. Very myopic.