The only reason manufacturers supporting this is to find an excused to charge people for phone chargers. They will start selling new phones for the same price but without the charger "Oh you don't have one?! buy this one then because the phone does not come with a charger" Million of phones X price for a charger = millions in extra profit. This will probably go for few years before they decide that micro-USB chargers are old tech and they come up with something else. Another few years charging people for charger they used to include for free with every phone.
Standardization will certainly help. Around my office there must be 8 different types of chargers.
I don't have a large collection of old chargers because I resist buying new phones. I've had the same phone for 3.5 years and the only one that interests me is the iPhone, but there's no way I can justify the cost of the plan. My wife and I have a land line and two cell phones, all with caller ID and voice mail, and we pay half as much per month as Rogers wants for an iPhone plan. I know the extra money gives me internet access "everywhere", but I really don't need it.
I have to agree that the FireWire 800 plug is a pain in the ass, but how often do you plug/un-plug your FW800 devices?
This connector happened rather by accident. The original iPod was FireWire based as USB was mostly 1.1 at the time (and on the Macs, only 1.1). While USB 1.1 could charge the iPod, syncing was much slower (painfully slow...I used to have a 20GB MP3 player with USB 1.1 before the iPod came out).
When Apple wanted to make a Windows compatible version of the iPod, they needed to use USB 2.0 since most PCs had USB, but not FireWire.
Thus the 30-pin iPod connector was born...one connector that could be used for USB or FireWire, until the iPhone 3G wherein they took the FireWire away (there are adapters for this though).
So now, the 30-pin connector really only provides Apple with 2 things...lock-out with accessories (alarm clocks, stereo systems, speakers,etc...) that are made for iPod/iPhone, and of course maintaining compatibility.
But from a consumer perspective, the 30-pin connector doesn't get us anything, unless we need it for existing compatibility...of course Apple already broke some of this when they removed FireWire. For users without any existing USB based 30-pin connector accessories, they'd be better off if Apple moved away from this connector and went with Micro USB.
It will be interesting to see what Apple does here...especially if they're going to be the only ones with a unique connector (but still in spec because they have an adapter/cable). That might make them be in spec technically, but practically speaking not so much because chargers and accessories (like battery pack chargers) will be made with the standard Micro USB male end.
I
While your history is correct, your interpretation of the usefulness of the connector is wrong.
Apple's connector is so important that the other manufacturers petitioned Apple to open it up to everyone. Not only that, they are attempting to develop a connector similar to it as a standard, and again pressed Apple to submit their connector as that standard.
No go. Apple isn't that stupid.
In actual fact, the connector is one of Apple biggest advantages. With )S 3.0 allowing tight coupling between the connector and third party devices, we'll see uses for the iPod Touch and the iPhone that not other models from any other manufacture will be able to match.
Even the much desired game controllers will appear. I'd love to see how they would do this for the Pre, with its USB connector.
We now have the popular Nike models working directly. And have seen some medical devices shown. A company is coming out with sensors for measuring numerous dynamic states.
This will be a whole new category that no other phone will be able to participate in.
"Apple's responded, and in a statement told Pocket-lint: "As we've said in the past, we are committed to the Apple dock connector and this initiative will not require us to change it. Today's memorandum gives manufacturers the option to provide an adapter that connects with the universal charger".
That sounds, to our ears, like a micro-USB adaptor will be bundled with future versions of the iPhone, as well as the cable that it currently comes with. Problem solved, though perhaps with not quite the simplicity that Apple often invokes."
To my ears that sounds like Apple will be introducing a $19 "universal phone charger adaptor". Apple including it for free is serious wishful thinking.
Curious: what other major examples of EU not thinking through standards are you thinking of?
As an aside, I wish some of the EU standards related to mobile telephony -- system-wide GSM standards, for starters -- could have been adopted in the US.
I was thinking of some of the DIN standards I've had to deal with.
Circuit breakers that are standardized for size, but not overload capacity, so they pop when they shouldn't. Connector standards for wiring that have metal hold-down screws in plastic bus strips that strip their threads.
There's lots of that. It's not just some manufacturers inferior components, but components are are required to be manufactured that way.
I also don't understand some DIN safety standards. Often right after the UL comes out with a standard, their new standard is often opposite to that. I often wonder if they do any real-world testing.
The only reason manufacturers supporting this is to find an excused to charge people for phone chargers. They will start selling new phones for the same price but without the charger "Oh you don't have one?! buy this one then because the phone does not come with a charger" Million of phones X price for a charger = millions in extra profit. This will probably go for few years before they decide that micro-USB chargers are old tech and they come up with something else. Another few years charging people for charger they used to include for free with every phone.
You mean similar to how Apple did the same when they dropped the charger from the iPod?
And it won't be limited to the phone manufacturers making the chargers, and they will have more uses than just a phone, so the price of the charger will remain cheap
Yes, because protecting the environment is a half baked idea...
You've apparently jumped the gun, because you can see the reasons I gave. did you write that just to be annoying?
Quote:
Most stores manage to ask people if they have batteries for devices that require them, it won't be too hard for them to ask if you have a charger.
You'd be surprised at how many times that doesn't happen, esp. at a large store such as Walmart.
Quote:
I think they will, they have 24% of the world cellphone users, so need to start something. Or are you worried as Nokia, and SE are based there, so what happens there will make it's way around the rest of the work, and then hit one of the smallest cellphone using areas, the USA?
I couldn't disagree more. Yes, there's going to be a changeover period, but once all phones accept one charger connection, this will provide a clear benefit. Consumers will already have a phone charger so they don't need another one in the box with the phone. If there were one in the box with the phone, it just wouldn't get used.
This will ultimately avoid the construction and shipment of millions upon millions of chargers and that is a good thing.
It' not that simple.
Are you saying that all phone manufacturers will adopt the same size battery? That wont ever happen, and I hope it doesn't.
I'm not against the concept. But I don't see it being as efficient as they are assuming. And I don't see charging performance being that good on all phones.
I couldn't disagree more. Yes, there's going to be a changeover period, but once all phones accept one charger connection, this will provide a clear benefit. Consumers will already have a phone charger so they don't need another one in the box with the phone. If there were one in the box with the phone, it just wouldn't get used.
This will ultimately avoid the construction and shipment of millions upon millions of chargers and that is a good thing.
It's not that simple.
Are you saying that all phone manufacturers will adopt the same size battery? That wont ever happen, and I hope it doesn't.
I'm not against the concept. But I don't see it being as efficient as they are assuming. And I don't see charging performance being that good on all phones.
Yes, it is that simple. Eventually, phones will be sold without chargers and consumers will use the ones they've already got. So instead of manufacturers shipping 180 million chargers each year in the box with the 180 million phones they sell, they'll ship 0 chargers a year in the box with the phone.
Some people will lose or break their chargers, but you can be damn sure it'll be less than 180 million. Let's be generous and put the number of chargers at 18 million (10%). That's 162 million chargers not being made or shipped. That has significant positive environmental impact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
Are you saying that all phone manufacturers will adopt the same size battery? That wont ever happen, and I hope it doesn't.
I'm not against the concept. But I don't see it being as efficient as they are assuming. And I don't see charging performance being that good on all phone
No, I'm not saying manufacturers all have to adopt the same battery. They will have to ensure that they pick a high upper limit for the current handling capability of the universal charger (the standard isn't set yet). As long as it's high enough, you'll still be able to charge large batteries quickly.
Charging extra for a universal adaptor would defeat the purpose of a standard adaptor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bregalad
To my ears that sounds like Apple will be introducing a $19 "universal phone charger adaptor". Apple including it for free is serious wishful thinking.
The problem is that you're stuck in the Apple mindset, thinking of a power adaptor that has a socket in it. Most adaptors have a fixed wire that you can't remove. This standard means that most manufacturers will make power adaptors with fixed cables that have a micro USB plug at the end. Then, all phones must have a micro usb socket that you can plug that USB plug into to charge the phone. In this way, you can use any charger to charge any phone.
Some phones will also use that USB socket on the phone to provide a USB connection for synching data with a computer, in which case you will use a micro USB to full size USB cable.
Others, like Apple, will use some other connector on the phone, and provide a mating adaptor to allow connection of the micro USB connector.
So, instead of needing one cable and a power adaptor you need two cables and a power adaptor. Which is less optimal.
So, it's a little cheaper except that if the intent is to reduce the number of power adaptors anyway, the cost savings is likely a wash vs another cable. Companies will stop including adaptors with their phones and charge extra for them anyway.
So, it's a little cheaper except that if the intent is to reduce the number of power adaptors anyway, the cost savings is likely a wash vs another cable
You're saying a cable costs the same as a charger? Both monetarily and in terms of environmental impact (raw materials used, energy used in manufacture and shipping)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
Companies will stop including adaptors with their phones
You mean similar to how Apple did the same when they dropped the charger from the iPod?
But Apple did not take away your ability to recharge your iPod with it. You were able to charge your iPod using your computer USB port.
Quote:
And it won't be limited to the phone manufacturers making the chargers, and they will have more uses than just a phone, so the price of the charger will remain cheap
They are cheap now because cell phones come with charger and few people actually need to buy one. Once you get your phone without a charger they will hike the price in the name of an incentive for to get people to keep their old chargers and because you don't have a choice. I don't know about you but I don't trust charging my phone with cheap no brand charger because the last time I did that years back my phone got fried.
I am not against the idea of protecting the environment but I am against another reason to force people to fork more money in the name of the environment. You want to protect the environment you have to get those companies to improve their battery and charge delivery technology (wireless charging tech is universal if I am not mistaken) and pay more for better research.
The problem is that wireless charging is horrendously inefficient. It's possible to make a wired charger that's over 90% efficient; you can't achieve that with wireless charging.
Ok - Mr.H. My mistake! It's not really wireless the way wireless is generally understood these days. Let's call it "cordless charging".
They are re-working the "connectors"!! Gee, in 3 years from now I don't want to "plug" my phone in anymore when I get home. I just want to take it out of my pocket and put it on the desk and it charges.
It actually works pretty good too. Takes longer to charge of course but it's handy to be able to pickup the phone and use it without undocking a cable first. Good for a quick 15-20% charge here and there to top off. (and you certainly need it on the Pre.. subpar battery life)
I'm all for standardisation in cases like this, and all for regulation in order that it is achieved as quickly as possible. However I do think that they've standardised the wrong end of the cable here. Why not standardise on a power brick with a standard-sized USB connector on it, and have every phone which doesn't employ a micro-USB connector on the phone itself (which should be recommended but not compulsory) include a cable ending with a stndard USB connector?
Not only that, but now they are going to make all of the old cables and chargers end up in a landfill because now they are all obsolete, except for a select few of course. I'm so glad the EU has spare time on their hands to worry about cell phone chargers. I just wouldn't be able to get by without their help.
After the connectors get standardized the transformer part will be in the wall or replace your lighter in the car. The USB can detect what voltage amps and watts. Hotels will have extra cables. You'll replace some sockets in your house with one plug 120v and the other low voltage with a USB plug. Wouldn't this be simple? Think about led lights and all low voltage electrical equipment.
Comments
I don't have a large collection of old chargers because I resist buying new phones. I've had the same phone for 3.5 years and the only one that interests me is the iPhone, but there's no way I can justify the cost of the plan. My wife and I have a land line and two cell phones, all with caller ID and voice mail, and we pay half as much per month as Rogers wants for an iPhone plan. I know the extra money gives me internet access "everywhere", but I really don't need it.
I have to agree that the FireWire 800 plug is a pain in the ass, but how often do you plug/un-plug your FW800 devices?
This presents a rather weird situation.
Some history on the 30-pin iPod connector:
This connector happened rather by accident. The original iPod was FireWire based as USB was mostly 1.1 at the time (and on the Macs, only 1.1). While USB 1.1 could charge the iPod, syncing was much slower (painfully slow...I used to have a 20GB MP3 player with USB 1.1 before the iPod came out).
When Apple wanted to make a Windows compatible version of the iPod, they needed to use USB 2.0 since most PCs had USB, but not FireWire.
Thus the 30-pin iPod connector was born...one connector that could be used for USB or FireWire, until the iPhone 3G wherein they took the FireWire away (there are adapters for this though).
So now, the 30-pin connector really only provides Apple with 2 things...lock-out with accessories (alarm clocks, stereo systems, speakers,etc...) that are made for iPod/iPhone, and of course maintaining compatibility.
But from a consumer perspective, the 30-pin connector doesn't get us anything, unless we need it for existing compatibility...of course Apple already broke some of this when they removed FireWire. For users without any existing USB based 30-pin connector accessories, they'd be better off if Apple moved away from this connector and went with Micro USB.
It will be interesting to see what Apple does here...especially if they're going to be the only ones with a unique connector (but still in spec because they have an adapter/cable). That might make them be in spec technically, but practically speaking not so much because chargers and accessories (like battery pack chargers) will be made with the standard Micro USB male end.
I
While your history is correct, your interpretation of the usefulness of the connector is wrong.
Apple's connector is so important that the other manufacturers petitioned Apple to open it up to everyone. Not only that, they are attempting to develop a connector similar to it as a standard, and again pressed Apple to submit their connector as that standard.
No go. Apple isn't that stupid.
In actual fact, the connector is one of Apple biggest advantages. With )S 3.0 allowing tight coupling between the connector and third party devices, we'll see uses for the iPod Touch and the iPhone that not other models from any other manufacture will be able to match.
Even the much desired game controllers will appear. I'd love to see how they would do this for the Pre, with its USB connector.
We now have the popular Nike models working directly. And have seen some medical devices shown. A company is coming out with sensors for measuring numerous dynamic states.
This will be a whole new category that no other phone will be able to participate in.
http://www.tomsguide.com/us/bluetoot...news-4097.html
http://www.icontrolpad.com/
http://www.22moo.com.au/gamebonepro.html
"Apple's responded, and in a statement told Pocket-lint: "As we've said in the past, we are committed to the Apple dock connector and this initiative will not require us to change it. Today's memorandum gives manufacturers the option to provide an adapter that connects with the universal charger".
That sounds, to our ears, like a micro-USB adaptor will be bundled with future versions of the iPhone, as well as the cable that it currently comes with. Problem solved, though perhaps with not quite the simplicity that Apple often invokes."
pocketlint
To my ears that sounds like Apple will be introducing a $19 "universal phone charger adaptor". Apple including it for free is serious wishful thinking.
Curious: what other major examples of EU not thinking through standards are you thinking of?
As an aside, I wish some of the EU standards related to mobile telephony -- system-wide GSM standards, for starters -- could have been adopted in the US.
I was thinking of some of the DIN standards I've had to deal with.
Circuit breakers that are standardized for size, but not overload capacity, so they pop when they shouldn't. Connector standards for wiring that have metal hold-down screws in plastic bus strips that strip their threads.
There's lots of that. It's not just some manufacturers inferior components, but components are are required to be manufactured that way.
I also don't understand some DIN safety standards. Often right after the UL comes out with a standard, their new standard is often opposite to that. I often wonder if they do any real-world testing.
The only reason manufacturers supporting this is to find an excused to charge people for phone chargers. They will start selling new phones for the same price but without the charger "Oh you don't have one?! buy this one then because the phone does not come with a charger" Million of phones X price for a charger = millions in extra profit. This will probably go for few years before they decide that micro-USB chargers are old tech and they come up with something else. Another few years charging people for charger they used to include for free with every phone.
You mean similar to how Apple did the same when they dropped the charger from the iPod?
And it won't be limited to the phone manufacturers making the chargers, and they will have more uses than just a phone, so the price of the charger will remain cheap
Yes, because protecting the environment is a half baked idea...
You've apparently jumped the gun, because you can see the reasons I gave. did you write that just to be annoying?
Most stores manage to ask people if they have batteries for devices that require them, it won't be too hard for them to ask if you have a charger.
You'd be surprised at how many times that doesn't happen, esp. at a large store such as Walmart.
I think they will, they have 24% of the world cellphone users, so need to start something. Or are you worried as Nokia, and SE are based there, so what happens there will make it's way around the rest of the work, and then hit one of the smallest cellphone using areas, the USA?
That's very funny.
And you missed the entire point of my post.
I couldn't disagree more. Yes, there's going to be a changeover period, but once all phones accept one charger connection, this will provide a clear benefit. Consumers will already have a phone charger so they don't need another one in the box with the phone. If there were one in the box with the phone, it just wouldn't get used.
This will ultimately avoid the construction and shipment of millions upon millions of chargers and that is a good thing.
It' not that simple.
Are you saying that all phone manufacturers will adopt the same size battery? That wont ever happen, and I hope it doesn't.
I'm not against the concept. But I don't see it being as efficient as they are assuming. And I don't see charging performance being that good on all phones.
I couldn't disagree more. Yes, there's going to be a changeover period, but once all phones accept one charger connection, this will provide a clear benefit. Consumers will already have a phone charger so they don't need another one in the box with the phone. If there were one in the box with the phone, it just wouldn't get used.
This will ultimately avoid the construction and shipment of millions upon millions of chargers and that is a good thing.
It's not that simple.
Are you saying that all phone manufacturers will adopt the same size battery? That wont ever happen, and I hope it doesn't.
I'm not against the concept. But I don't see it being as efficient as they are assuming. And I don't see charging performance being that good on all phones.
It's not that simple.
Yes, it is that simple. Eventually, phones will be sold without chargers and consumers will use the ones they've already got. So instead of manufacturers shipping 180 million chargers each year in the box with the 180 million phones they sell, they'll ship 0 chargers a year in the box with the phone.
Some people will lose or break their chargers, but you can be damn sure it'll be less than 180 million. Let's be generous and put the number of chargers at 18 million (10%). That's 162 million chargers not being made or shipped. That has significant positive environmental impact.
Are you saying that all phone manufacturers will adopt the same size battery? That wont ever happen, and I hope it doesn't.
I'm not against the concept. But I don't see it being as efficient as they are assuming. And I don't see charging performance being that good on all phone
No, I'm not saying manufacturers all have to adopt the same battery. They will have to ensure that they pick a high upper limit for the current handling capability of the universal charger (the standard isn't set yet). As long as it's high enough, you'll still be able to charge large batteries quickly.
To my ears that sounds like Apple will be introducing a $19 "universal phone charger adaptor". Apple including it for free is serious wishful thinking.
The problem is that you're stuck in the Apple mindset, thinking of a power adaptor that has a socket in it. Most adaptors have a fixed wire that you can't remove. This standard means that most manufacturers will make power adaptors with fixed cables that have a micro USB plug at the end. Then, all phones must have a micro usb socket that you can plug that USB plug into to charge the phone. In this way, you can use any charger to charge any phone.
Some phones will also use that USB socket on the phone to provide a USB connection for synching data with a computer, in which case you will use a micro USB to full size USB cable.
Others, like Apple, will use some other connector on the phone, and provide a mating adaptor to allow connection of the micro USB connector.
So, instead of needing one cable and a power adaptor you need two cables and a power adaptor. Which is less optimal.
So, it's a little cheaper except that if the intent is to reduce the number of power adaptors anyway, the cost savings is likely a wash vs another cable. Companies will stop including adaptors with their phones and charge extra for them anyway.
So, it's a little cheaper except that if the intent is to reduce the number of power adaptors anyway, the cost savings is likely a wash vs another cable
You're saying a cable costs the same as a charger? Both monetarily and in terms of environmental impact (raw materials used, energy used in manufacture and shipping)?
Companies will stop including adaptors with their phones
That's the whole point!
You mean similar to how Apple did the same when they dropped the charger from the iPod?
But Apple did not take away your ability to recharge your iPod with it. You were able to charge your iPod using your computer USB port.
And it won't be limited to the phone manufacturers making the chargers, and they will have more uses than just a phone, so the price of the charger will remain cheap
They are cheap now because cell phones come with charger and few people actually need to buy one. Once you get your phone without a charger they will hike the price in the name of an incentive for to get people to keep their old chargers and because you don't have a choice. I don't know about you but I don't trust charging my phone with cheap no brand charger because the last time I did that years back my phone got fried.
I am not against the idea of protecting the environment but I am against another reason to force people to fork more money in the name of the environment. You want to protect the environment you have to get those companies to improve their battery and charge delivery technology (wireless charging tech is universal if I am not mistaken) and pay more for better research.
The problem is that wireless charging is horrendously inefficient. It's possible to make a wired charger that's over 90% efficient; you can't achieve that with wireless charging.
Ok - Mr.H. My mistake! It's not really wireless the way wireless is generally understood these days. Let's call it "cordless charging".
Did you see the Pre's $80 accessory?
And here some 5 year old tech: http://www.engadget.com/2004/10/20/s...harging-issue/
They are re-working the "connectors"!! Gee, in 3 years from now I don't want to "plug" my phone in anymore when I get home. I just want to take it out of my pocket and put it on the desk and it charges.
apple has been ahead of the curve all my adapters already work on all my products
Did you see the Pre's $80 accessory?
It actually works pretty good too. Takes longer to charge of course but it's handy to be able to pickup the phone and use it without undocking a cable first. Good for a quick 15-20% charge here and there to top off. (and you certainly need it on the Pre.. subpar battery life)
I'm all for standardisation in cases like this, and all for regulation in order that it is achieved as quickly as possible. However I do think that they've standardised the wrong end of the cable here. Why not standardise on a power brick with a standard-sized USB connector on it, and have every phone which doesn't employ a micro-USB connector on the phone itself (which should be recommended but not compulsory) include a cable ending with a stndard USB connector?
Not only that, but now they are going to make all of the old cables and chargers end up in a landfill because now they are all obsolete, except for a select few of course. I'm so glad the EU has spare time on their hands to worry about cell phone chargers. I just wouldn't be able to get by without their help.