Apple stirs controversy with iMovie's '08 overhaul

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  • Reply 261 of 289
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,949member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    Once you introduce timelines, time code, and multi-track audio. You are most certainly entering "pro like" nomenclature.



    Are there consumer video apps that don't have time line? There's a point where it ceases to be consumer and becomes Fisher-Price. Anyone that didn't want to use a time line didn't even have to use it.



    Did iMovie have time code support at all? I'm fine with that not being in iMovie, on this point, I would agree.



    There wasn't much to iMovie 6's multi track capabilities, it's hardly what I would call a pro like capability.



    Quote:

    Perhaps it plays to a different mind set. I know people who do music and think Garage Band is as simple as it gets.



    There's a parallel here. A lot of us thought that iMovie was as simple as it gets.
  • Reply 262 of 289
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MiMac View Post


    I see a petition has been started... iMovie Petition



    Not sure if 40 people are going to be enough to convince Apple to throw millions more in resources at "correcting" iMovie '08.
  • Reply 263 of 289
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Quote:

    Are there consumer video apps that don't have time line? There's a point where it ceases to be consumer and becomes Fisher-Price. Anyone that didn't want to use a time line didn't even have to use it.



    Probably not but that is only because the timeline and time code are a convention taken from pro apps which was adopted from linear video editing to make it easier for video editors to transition from tape to tape to computer hard drive based editing.



    Editing is essentially timing and knowing where to make a transition from one action to another. The skill in editing is knowing where to make a cut and it doesn't matter what tool you use to make that cut.



    Quote:

    There wasn't much to iMovie 6's multi track capabilities, it's hardly what I would call a pro like capability.



    I don't call it "pro like" because its not as developed as some other NLE. Its "pro like" becasue multi-track audio increases the learning curve. To properly use it you have to learn.
  • Reply 264 of 289
    adamradamr Posts: 72member
    I can understand why people are upset at the changes from 06 to 08.



    However, I never used iMovie 06. I could use it - I knew how - but I never did. The main reasons were: 1. destructive editing and 2. I had access to FCP.



    Now, even if I use FCP for more advanced work, iMovie 08 still has value to me in how quickly I can put something together. Also, the library is really useful (although, because I have a MacBook as my primary machine, I can't keep much in the library at the same time). As the tech adviser to my family, I can say that they are MUCH more likely to use iMovie 08 than 06. iMovie 08 is much more like an iPhoto for video. Just as iPhoto is not Photoshop Elements, iMovie does not need to be Final Cut lite.



    Now, however, to justify this change in iMovie Apple really needs to bring out a much improved version of FCE which is easier to use, has the cool themes etc but has the power. And it needs to be substantially cheaper. Make it US$99 and it is a winner.
  • Reply 265 of 289
    adamradamr Posts: 72member
    Sorry, double post.
  • Reply 266 of 289
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,664member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    .......... To properly use it you have to learn.



    That's the crux of it, right there.



    What other programs, on the Mac, could this not be said of? Every application I am aware of has an implicit assumption built in: you will need to learn at least a few conventions to begin to use it. As you gain familiarity, you can take advantage of some additional functionality.



    This is true of Page, Garage Band, iPhoto, Mail, Keynote, even iTunes.



    But somehow, there is a new standard, just for video editing, that declares there must be no learning curve at all, and anything that isn't instantly graspable at the level of drag and drop is "too complicated" and must be removed.



    I've made the point several times now, but if Apple had taken a similar hatchet to any of the apps above, I'm pretty sure most of the people who are satisfied with iMovie '08 would be screaming bloody murder, no matter how "streamlined" the interface had become, and no matter how many assurances they received that now that Pages, say, was reduced to a handful of very basic options, many more people would be able to tackle that whole, esoteric world of "page layout". I'm guessing that even quite a few anecdotes about how various cousins, siblings and pets were delighted that they, too, could now pick one of three document formats or one of ten fonts and use the "upload to my blog" button without having to really think about it or learn anything, wouldn't do much to win too many people over. They might forgiven for being of the opinion that there is a trade-off between simplicity and functionality, and that it is quite possible to err on the side of the former.



    I would also like to point out that many people are conflating some of the modern improvements in iMovie '08, such as a ubiquitous media browser, real time transitions and non-destructive editing, with "ease of use", as if those things couldn't have been added to something very much like iMovie '06, or adding those things without removing, say, control of audio level within a clip would have made iMovie '08 harder to use.
  • Reply 267 of 289
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    That's the crux of it, right there.



    What other programs, on the Mac, could this not be said of? Every application I am aware of has an implicit assumption built in: you will need to learn at least a few conventions to begin to use it. As you gain familiarity, you can take advantage of some additional functionality.



    This is true of Page, Garage Band, iPhoto, Mail, Keynote, even iTunes.



    Pages and Keynote are part of iWork. Garage Band is arguably harder but also arguably even less used. iTunes is simpler. Mail is trivial.



    Some folks hate iMovie 08. Other folks are picking it up where they never touched iMovie 06. I'd say that if the latter outnumbers the former then Apple did a good job but from here and now and where we stand that's hard to tell.



    Vinea
  • Reply 268 of 289
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,664member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post


    Pages and Keynote are part of iWork.



    So? If the "get people using software that they otherwise wouldn't use by making simpler by removing features" idea is a good one, why shouldn't it apply across the board?



    Quote:

    Garage Band is arguably harder but also arguably even less used.



    Which suggests that Apple should have done something about that by removing even more features from Garage Band to make it even simpler to get more people using it.



    Quote:

    iTunes is simpler. Mail is trivial.



    Only because you've actually been motivated to learn how to use them. Go into the menus in Mail and tell me that there is less there than in iMovie. I bet a lot of people don't use things like smart mail boxes because they can't figure out how. Apple should remove that functionality to make Mail more inviting. Also, they really need to get rid of that "Advanced" tab in iTunes. It makes me nervous just knowing it's there.



    Quote:

    Some folks hate iMovie 08. Other folks are picking it up where they never touched iMovie 06. I'd say that if the latter outnumbers the former then Apple did a good job but from here and now and where we stand that's hard to tell.



    Vinea



    That's true enough, up to a point, but pandering for market share isn't really Apple's thing, is it? Why not change up some of the OS UI conventions to make them more like Windows, and if market share increases then we'll know it was the right thing to do, right?



    At any rate, my suspicion is that iMovie '08 will, in fact, have more people fooling with video, for a while. The trouble is, without any depth of functionality, there isn't much there to hold one's interest. After importing a bunch of old footage kicking around on your hard drive, and tossing a few clips on top of each other, the novelty will wear off, and then we'll be back to people who actually want to do something with video. And then what?



    The theory seems to be that if you can make video editing something that you barely have to think about then you have made it "accessible" and "fun". In my experience, accessibility and fun only stick around when you have the chance to get better at something. The new iMovie almost militantly guards against that possibility-- the movie you found so easy to make the first time out will be the movie you make the tenth, and twentieth, and hundredth time. Assuming anyone even bothers to take it that far.
  • Reply 269 of 289
    Put together another two short films today, one in 06 and one in 08, very similar format. 08 beat 06 hands down, for my purposes: I was finished in 30 minutes whereas 06 took about an hour (I had to adjust video color and that takes ages in 06, especially if you don't get it right the first time around).



    I honestly do not understand the fuss, and I know 06 pretty well and have every GeeThree collection. iMovie 08 is a fabulous app.
  • Reply 270 of 289
    mimacmimac Posts: 871member
    Addabox, you made some very good points there and I'd have to agree with you. Why 'simplify' something that was once an extremely useful tool for many just to appeal to a potential market of users that will dabble for a while then get bored with it. Sure, a 'movie' will be knocked out in less time with minimal effort, though as you say, it will be the same movie again and again. Now that's progress!



    Was it not possible to re-write iMovie 06 to include the new features as well as the old, keeping the familiar UI with timelines etc. (maybe as an 'advanced' feature)? Ah, no. Lots of FCE boxes to shift.



    iMovie 06? ... God forbid anyone should have to learn something?!! We couldn't allow that!



    The future? ... Apple. The choice for people who think "Taco Bell" is a phone company.
  • Reply 271 of 289
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,664member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post


    Put together another two short films today, one in 06 and one in 08, very similar format. 08 beat 06 hands down, for my purposes: I was finished in 30 minutes whereas 06 took about an hour (I had to adjust video color and that takes ages in 06, especially if you don't get it right the first time around).



    I honestly do not understand the fuss, and I know 06 pretty well and have every GeeThree collection. iMovie 08 is a fabulous app.



    Scrubbing, a ubiquitous media browser and real time transitions are fabulous features, and almost certainly account for your speed up.



    I can't imagine how, given those improvements, it would be any more difficult or slower in iMovie '06 to drag clips to the timeline, drag transitions between clips, and drag sound onto that.



    Then, you could change up your transitions, vary the sound levels with simple dragging, have some actual control over your titles, maybe add an effect or two (I know, I know, it involves dragging the effect onto the clip you want to effect, so it's pretty hard, but still.....) and send it off to iDVD for archiving.



    The point being that the features that make iMovie '08 faster and easier are in no way incompatible with the features that made iMovie '06 more powerful.



    Right? People keep saying something like "scrubbing is great, couldn't do scrubbing in iMovie '06, so iMovie '08 is much better and just what the doctor ordered."



    Improvements and reduced functionality are not somehow obliged to go hand-in-hand.
  • Reply 272 of 289
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Quote:

    The point being that the features that make iMovie '08 faster and easier are in no way incompatible with the features that made iMovie '06 more powerful.



    It is in that the entire UI has been completely changed to make it more intuitive for people who know nothing about video editing.



    Quote:

    Why 'simplify' something that was once an extremely useful tool for many just to appeal to a potential market of users that will dabble for a while then get bored with it.



    The point isn't for people to dabble and get bored. The point is to make it easier to use and more useful to a larger group of people.



    Quote:

    iMovie 06? ... God forbid anyone should have to learn something?!! We couldn't allow that!



    People will still have to learn to use 08. Its about shrinking the learning curve for people who do not want to spend a great deal of time or effort to cut home movies.
  • Reply 273 of 289
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,664member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    It is in that the entire UI has been completely changed to make it more intuitive for people who know nothing about video editing.



    Well, I still disagree that any of that requires dropping functionality. I also just can't see what is so bewildering about a timeline. How is having the linear elements of your movie running from left to right less intuitive than having line breaks with little jagged edges to indicate that the shot continues?



    Just imagine the media browser, scrubbing and real time transitions combined with something much like iMovie '06's timeline and flexibility. I honestly can't imagine how that was going to be harder to use than what we got.



    Quote:

    The point isn't for people to dabble and get bored. The point is to make it easier to use and more useful to a larger group of people.



    But again, without much in the way of discoverability or depth, people will dabble and get bored. There's nothing very interesting about making a movie of 4 second shots with 1 second dissolves and an iTunes song on top of it, which is the model the UI encourages you to use. And God knows there won't be anything very interesting about watching that.



    Quote:

    People will still have to learn to use 08. Its about shrinking the learning curve for people who do not want to spend a great deal of time or effort to cut home movies.



    I'm still not convinced that iMovie '06 required all that much in the way of time and effort, but at any rate it should have been possible to directly address its areas of slowness-- importing and transition rendering-- while keeping some fine grained control, even if only quarantined by an advanced tab.



    It's not that it's a bad idea to make a program that allows new comers to dive right in, it's that it's a bad idea to begin and end with that level of functionality, if only because new comers become seasoned hands and start wanting to try something a little more advanced.
  • Reply 274 of 289
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    So? If the "get people using software that they otherwise wouldn't use by making simpler by removing features" idea is a good one, why shouldn't it apply across the board?



    Because Keynote is as much "Pro" vs Powerpoint as FCP is "Pro" vs iMovie?



    Quote:

    Which suggests that Apple should have done something about that by removing even more features from Garage Band to make it even simpler to get more people using it.



    Perhaps they should. I dunno...I've never had much inclination to play with it although I might now with iMovie.



    Quote:

    Only because you've actually been motivated to learn how to use them. Go into the menus in Mail and tell me that there is less there than in iMovie. I bet a lot of people don't use things like smart mail boxes because they can't figure out how. Apple should remove that functionality to make Mail more inviting. Also, they really need to get rid of that "Advanced" tab in iTunes. It makes me nervous just knowing it's there.



    Are you seriously trying to say that reading email using Mail is an equal or more complex task than using iMovie HD?



    Quote:

    That's true enough, up to a point, but pandering for market share isn't really Apple's thing, is it? Why not change up some of the OS UI conventions to make them more like Windows, and if market share increases then we'll know it was the right thing to do, right?



    We're not talking about market share. We're talking about serving their existing iLife userbase. If most iLife users didn't find iMovie HD approachable then simplification was correct if more customers end up using it where fewer did before.



    Quote:

    At any rate, my suspicion is that iMovie '08 will, in fact, have more people fooling with video, for a while. The trouble is, without any depth of functionality, there isn't much there to hold one's interest. After importing a bunch of old footage kicking around on your hard drive, and tossing a few clips on top of each other, the novelty will wear off, and then we'll be back to people who actually want to do something with video. And then what?



    The theory seems to be that if you can make video editing something that you barely have to think about then you have made it "accessible" and "fun". In my experience, accessibility and fun only stick around when you have the chance to get better at something. The new iMovie almost militantly guards against that possibility-- the movie you found so easy to make the first time out will be the movie you make the tenth, and twentieth, and hundredth time. Assuming anyone even bothers to take it that far.



    It may be hard to believe but for some folks making movies isn't fun as much as it is a chore. I do not want to spend 40 minutes much less 40 hours making a movie from my kids B-day party. I want to put something together quickly that looks nice that I can toss on the web page so friends and family can see it. I will do this about 5 times a year. Anything I learn is likely forgotten between these sessions. My skill improvement from video #2 to video #20 isn't likely to really increase all THAT much.



    Just like I'm not using Aperture to do significant post-processing on my photos I'm taking with my point and shoot digital camera. I use iPhoto and play with levels at most. Do I occasionally wish I had more post-processing options? Yes. But not all that often. 99% of the time it's: delete fuzzy photos, rotate all photos upright, batch apply image enhacement, tick on Automatic Ken Burns, pick music and BOOM. Instant Album that doesn't look too horrid. Minimal thought process and effort.



    Oh...and I sure as heck hope my kids have a tenth and twentieth birthday so its pretty likely there will be a twentieth time. If for some reason I suddenly have the yen to take video up as a hobby I'll go buy myself FCE.



    Vinea
  • Reply 275 of 289
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post


    Perhaps they should. I dunno...I've never had much inclination to play with it although I might now with iMovie.



    Dear god, I hope Apple isn't listening. In terms of features, usability and price, GarageBand is probably the the best music production app ever. Ever try to use Logic?



    I would guess that there is a fairly large number of people out there--amateur musicians who can't justify spending $300 to $500 on a professional app, or invest the time to learn it--who have been terribly underserved by developers. If Apple decided to lobotomize GB the way they did iMovie, I would be very, very disappointed.
  • Reply 276 of 289
    mimacmimac Posts: 871member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post


    ...It may be hard to believe but for some folks making movies isn't fun as much as it is a chore. I do not want to spend 40 minutes much less 40 hours making a movie from my kids B-day party. I want to put something together quickly that looks nice that I can toss on the web page so friends and family can see it. I will do this about 5 times a year. Anything I learn is likely forgotten between these sessions. My skill improvement from video #2 to video #20 isn't likely to really increase all THAT much.



    Vinea



    Horses for courses.



    iMovie 08 will suit some people just fine if they only want to throw a few clips together and stick the end product up on the web. Thats Ok, though you are still limited to what you can produce. IMHO iMovie 06 is good enough for doing just that, and it also has the power and feature to produce something more altogether pleasing to view.



    I'd rather iMovie 08 was a "quick" feature of a familiar and powerful product because I believe that time spent on producing a superior video or DVD with a tool such as iMovie 06 pays in the end. I'd like to watch these kind of DVDs in the future and think to myself "now that looks awesome! I'm glad that I put some effort into producing it" rather than "hmmm, it's kinda nice".

    If it feels like a chore then why bother at all? The fun is all in the production and end product.



    My $0.02
  • Reply 277 of 289
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MiMac View Post


    If it feels like a chore then why bother at all? The fun is all in the production and end product.



    My $0.02



    For other folks to enjoy? Like 4 grandparents? Naaaaaaah.



    Vinea
  • Reply 278 of 289
    slackulaslackula Posts: 262member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post


    For other folks to enjoy? Like 4 grandparents? Naaaaaaah.



    Vinea



    No, for my wedding clients who pay me $900 a pop for their iMovie 06/Gee Three plugin-produced wedding day film on DVD....
  • Reply 279 of 289
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,949member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Slackula View Post


    No, for my wedding clients who pay me $900 a pop for their iMovie 06/Gee Three plugin-produced wedding day film on DVD....



    If that's a serious post, I'd think that you would benefit from a Final Cut Express workflow. iMovie 6 was great (IMO) for simple, quick & dirty movies, but you can get much nicer titling and more editing flexibility with FCE.
  • Reply 280 of 289
    meelashmeelash Posts: 1,045member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Slackula View Post


    No, for my wedding clients who pay me $900 a pop for their iMovie 06/Gee Three plugin-produced wedding day film on DVD....



    Exactly.



    That's why iMovie 06 was scrapped. Because people like you need to be using a professional program. How long would it take you to recoup the cost of FCE?
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