The idea that Target - or any other large-scale consumer retailer - would freely give up valuable shelf space to a niche product format is ridiculous. You obviously know even less about retail than you do about the disc market .
I think that the big retailers charge all their suppliers for shelf space. Our farm pays for pecan displays in large supermarkets. Both Blu-ray and HD-DVD probably pay for the shelf space that they get.
That is totally different from Toshiba bribing a manufacturer to switch sides.
If this were the case--that 360 add-on owners would come around the ball park of the PS3--well, then Blu-ray has a much, much better attach rate than HD DVD considering they've outsold them in disc purchases for the entire year at a 2/3:1 clip.
You're probably right about PS3 having better attach rate than xbox360 owners, when compared within the gaming console contributions in the format war. We know significant amount of non-gamers are buying PS3 with main purpose of Blu-Ray HDM playback. However, HD-DVD does have cheaper standalone player solutions, hence there are more standalone HD-DVD players than standalone blu-ray players. Unlike Blu-Ray, the gaming console isn't the best solution for HDM playback for HD-DVD supporters. Most non-gamers would probably not go with xbox360 route.
That's not logic, it's rationalization. And not a very good one.
The idea that Target - or any other large-scale consumer retailer - would freely give up valuable shelf space to a niche product format is ridiculous. You obviously know even less about retail than you do about the disc market .
That space is likely being paid for in cash and kind, just like Toshiba's "marketing exclusives" deal with Paramount. The only difference here is that you are willing to say making such a deal "makes sense" whereas you and you ilk raised all kinds of conspiracy nonsense about the Toshiba deal. That's called blatant hypocrisy.
And seriously, you - of all people - really shouldn't be lecturing anyone on fanboyism.
exactly... especially HDM status still being niche with the high price tag of $499 at stores like Target. This will be waste of shelf space for Target shoppers.... unless the retail price change to below $250. Sony is paying for that space....... But this is business.
And it is business when Toshiba pays for other things like the end cap at local BB along with Samsung, LG, and Sony trying demo their products. No conspiracy here.
In the HD arena, the 360 is not competition. You're talking about competition in the gaming arena, in which case, you might as well start arguing how the Wii and the PS2 are doing great in sales.
No, because the Wii is not a HD device. That's somewhat arbitrary but really the Wii isn't a next generation console anyway hardware wise. Its a gamecube with a new controller and a faster processor.
Wii sales don't constrain PS3 sales as much as 360 sales do IMHO. In any case, 360+HD DVD add on is direct competition within the HD arena.
Sure. I'm sure people love downloading 30GB movies. That only takes, what, 5 hours assuming you're not stuck with DSL or slower? As for the $180 attachment, sales figures prove it's not flying off the shelves. You mention the Elite. Yeah, it's such a bargain to buy a $459 console (only the Elite has the HDMI required for 1080p) then add a $180 attachment, rather than buying a $499 console with a built-in HD drive.
I don't think the bitrates are the same and the aren't sending 30GB down.
In any case, if you go to a streaming implementation then you need to only download sufficient buffer to handle pauses and you don't need 5 hours worth of DL before you get to watch your 2 hour movie.
Quote:
Keep telling yourself that. An awful lot of PS3 owners at AVS say they've bought lots of Blu-ray movies but much fewer games, putting the lie to "games are most important."
AVS is not a representative PS3 market. Or the attach rates of Blu-Ray would be through the roof. That would indicate that "games are most important". You have to be really obstinate to claim that games are not the most important aspect of any GAME console.
4. Due to the PS3 having a blu-ray player, the only hope that HD-DVD had was if the PS3 died as a gaming unit, and that is not occurring, the PS3 will end up with half of X.
5. so HD-DVD is doomed, QED.
Well...conversely the only way that Blu-Ray would have extinguished HD-DVD is if the PS3 didn't do 30% X but instead did 70% X as they did with the PS2. While the sales rate from time of launch is equal the fact is that 2 years ago no one would have expected 360 parity with the PS3.
HD-DVD isn't doomed if they can offset the PS3 with $99-$199 players this Christmas. Then they might have numerical parity IF the mass market adopts it despite the format war because its cheap enough to risk. $99 is more certain. $199 less certain. For $199 I'd rather get little Johnny a DS, PSP, 360, Wii or PS3 for more money and worry about HD discs next year when hopefully there is no format war going on.
The entertainment budget is a zero sum game and frankly the format war is a variable parents don't need when looking at gifts over $100.
They would not "already have the player" since the Xbox 360 does not come with it. The HD DVD player is offered as an attachment. This has been stated in several posts.
It'd have been better if the Elite had the HD-DVD player IN it.
That's not logic, it's rationalization. And not a very good one.
The idea that Target - or any other large-scale consumer retailer - would freely give up valuable shelf space to a niche product format is ridiculous. You obviously know even less about retail than you do about the disc market .
And you obviously know even less about providing links or some kind of proof to support your claims...and you wonder why I mentioned fanboyism. We are all fanboys to some degree, but at the very least, do us all a favor and be an informed fanboy...link please!
I'm simply deducing what is stated in the article directly, not contriving conspiracy theories as yourself. Funny how you labeled the $150 million dollar payoff as a conspiracy theory when there was a plethora of links stating that it indeed happened and I provided them as such, but when I give you an article that directly states that the terms of the agreement between Sony and Target deal with end caps on aisles, you contrive notions of conspiracy, but without any links to back it up. Get with it man.
Quote:
That space is likely being paid for in cash and kind, just like Toshiba's "marketing exclusives" deal with Paramount. The only difference here is that you are willing to say making such a deal "makes sense" whereas you and you ilk raised all kinds of conspiracy nonsense about the Toshiba deal. That's called blatant hypocrisy.
Likely, or fact? The burden of proof is on you.
Moreover, the act of Paramount is much different, in that I don't see Target eliminating HD DVD discs from their stores, as Paramount eliminated their movies from Blu-ray consumers who, from a logistic perspective, provided the most money in terms of sales for them.
I understand business is business, but there is no hypocrisy coming from me. I simply listed an article for your viewing pleasure, and whether there are behind the scenes deals going on for actual "shelf space" remains to be seen or proven. Regardless, this move by Target makes sense in my opinion, again, in the sense that the consumer is overwhelmingly choosing Blu-ray over HD DVD. What part of that don't you get? And you question my knowledge of the disc market? What part of being outsold all year long don't you understand?
Blu-ray is, or is not dominating HD DVD for this year? Answer the question. Therein lies the answer of why I think Target is doubling their shelf space for Blu-ray,...the consumer has spoken and continues to speak. Or maybe, Target should have gone against the consumer trend like Paramount, and totally gotten rid of Blu-ray and went HD DVD exclusive...would that of made better "sense" to you? It doesn't does it? Much like the move by Paramount didn't make any sense from a consumer perspective, but made all the sense in the world from a bribery perspective, thus alienating the majority of the HD consumer base.
It'd have been better if the Elite had the HD-DVD player IN it.
You know, for people with HDM playback in mind, the extra $50 to $100 more for a console may be worth it, but for those who is just in it for the games, it's unecessary cost. Just like when PS3 customers have to pay for Blu-Ray playback capability whether they want it or not. Don't forget that many nextgen console owners do not even own proper HDTV.
I'm sure there will be a point where HD-DVD drive cost equal or come close to DVD drives and such upgrade may not burden the overall cost. Most will have to wait for this to happen, and then the HD-DVD drive upgrade may occur with xbox360.
HD-DVD equipped xbox360 can play as double edged swore at this time, but when price isn't affected, I'm all in for the idea.
Well, for all the talk about the profiles of Blu-ray, Joshua Zyber over at HDD wrote a commentary piece that I thought was well balanced and eye opening...
...So where does that leave us now? To whom do Combo discs currently appeal? Average movie buyers have continued to stick with the more affordable DVD-only option, a complete failure of the Trojan Horse plan. HD DVD buyers are upset that they're being forced to pay extra for a "feature" they will rarely (if ever) use. And those who support both HD DVD and Blu-ray would just as soon buy the Blu-ray that's $5 cheaper with the same quality and features. Combo discs put HD DVD in a no-win situation.
Worse than that, the damn discs don't even work half the time! Just the other night, I sat down to watch my recently-purchased HD DVD copy of '300' on my Toshiba HD-XA2 player, and I only made it 45 minutes before the stupid thing froze up and ceased playback. No matter how many times I try to restart the movie, the disc will not play beyond Chapter 14. This is an extremely high-profile release; in fact, it's currently the best-selling title on either the HD DVD or Blu-ray formats, and the disc won't function in a top-of-the-line HD DVD player! Who wants to put up with nonsense like that? I certainly don't.
Let's not kid ourselves that this is an isolated defective disc or a one-time anomaly. Complaints about playback problems on '300' are widespread, and similar compatibility issues have plagued earlier Combo releases such as 'Children of Men', 'The Good Shepherd', 'Happy Feet', 'Superman Returns', and 'The Matrix Reloaded' (copies from the expensive 'Ultimate Matrix Collection' box set which has the bonus features in DVD format on the flip-side of the disc). Some of these will only work properly on second-generation HD DVD players but not first-generation models, and some bizarrely just the opposite. Some function fine on Toshiba's players but not on Microsoft's HD DVD add-on accessory for the XBox 360, and others vice versa. Some don't work right on any player at all.
The excuses are manifold. First we were told that certain titles were authored out of spec for the HD DVD format, but if that were true why would they work on some players but not others (even within the same player model)? Then we were told it was a manufacturing error having to do with the bonding process that seals the two halves of the disc together. Some people believe that there's a filmy residue on the surface of the discs that the player's laser can't read through, and have claimed better results after cleaning or boiling (yes, boiling!) the discs for a few minutes. For what it's worth, I actually tried this boiling trick on a couple of my non-responsive discs, but it didn't do anything to solve my playback errors.
Universal was good enough to offer a mail-in exchange program for "defective" copies of 'Children of Men' and 'The Good Shepherd'. However, many people who received "corrected" copies found them just as problematic. Later, Toshiba issued a firmware update for their players that seemed to clear up most of the problems with these two titles. If it were really a physical manufacturing error on certain copies, how could a firmware change in the player make a difference? And if it were an authoring mistake that a firmware update can work around, why are brand new discs like '300' still not working correctly? Something just isn't right here.
Well, for all the talk about the profiles of Blu-ray, Joshua Zyber over at HDD wrote a commentary piece that I thought was well balanced and eye opening...
This have been already covered here that current combo disc isn't helping with the format war. The extra cost and higher disc defective rate isn't good for anyone, but we knew that already.
Are we here to watch the dead horse die again?
what's even more interesting is what Denon is saying about profile 1.1.....
This is slightly Off-Topic as it has to do with high-def creation and not consumption, but I thought some of you here might have some ideas. I own a video production company and the following is reposted from another forum
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I have a potential client that will be needing content supplied to any number from 1-20 HD flat panels. (1-20 separate locations of a chain) Ideally I would like to give them HD content for their HD panels. This is not necessarily a requirement, but my HD rates are higher so it'd be nice.
I can produce HD, no problem. I've got an HV20 and if I land this client I'll get an A1, my problem is how the heck to get it on their panels. In an SD world I'd simply make a nice user-friendly looping DVD. Am I correct in my interpretation of the DVDSP manual that I can burn HDDVD content to a standard DVD, just not much of it? Anyone know how much time you can fit on one at 1080 or 72op? That could be workable at first, but as time goes on it'd be nice if this thing had enough varied content that it ran awhile before repeating.
The other problem with the HDDVD workflow being that I don't think HDDVD is going to make it. Even if I'm wrong the wait for HDDVD burners seems to just keep getting longer and longer, so I'm stuck with what I can fit on standard DVD.
If I get them to go BluRay I don't know how the workflow would go. There's no direct BluRay support in DVDSP 4, but I think I read that Toast can fill in the gap. Is that the case? Is there anyone using a BluRay workflow?
I've also considered going the Mac Mini or Apple TV Route. If it were just in my one location that would be great as I could go a few blocks over and update it from time to time using my MacBook. But, I'd like a solution that will work with all 20-odd locations if they start putting panels in all of them. I can't drive around the country every month or so updating 20 different AppleTVs. Ok, so I could, but I doubt they'd want to pay for it.
One of the things I'm anticipating for 4Q is the release on BD of some my of old time favorites that I only have on Criterion LDs, such as 2001, Close Encounters and Blade Runner.
So let's put aside the bickering on which format is winning, the who-cares talk about game players as game players and the debatable and slightly suspect financial data being thrown around and let's move on to something else.
I'm curious, what's the steps that studios have to go through to take an older movie that's on film and make the necessary transfers to turn it into HDM? Anyone help me out here?
They would not "already have the player" since the Xbox 360 does not come with it. The HD DVD player is offered as an attachment. This has been stated in several posts.
{SIGH}
I said DVD as in SD DVD as in the format released in 1997 and the current market leader in the redistribution of film.
They most likely have an SD-DVD player already so it would cost them only the price of the disc to access the film.
I assume the xbox 360 can play SD-DVDs as well? although it wouldn't surprise me if it couldn't. I do know the PS3 can play SD-DVDs.
I really doubt if more than one percent of 360 users have bought an add on, however EVERY PS3 user can play BD, this is why the 360 does not really matter, but the PS3 does, even the honest HD-DVD owners will admit that.
You know, for people with HDM playback in mind, the extra $50 to $100 more for a console may be worth it, but for those who is just in it for the games, it's unecessary cost. Just like when PS3 customers have to pay for Blu-Ray playback capability whether they want it or not. Don't forget that many nextgen console owners do not even own proper HDTV.
links? proof? otherwise its just so much FUD.
The studios are using BD, it just so happens they are GAMES STUDIOS using up all that lovely space.
Some of the comments on here have gotten VERY blind of late, no wonder murch has left.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac
I'm sure there will be a point where HD-DVD drive cost equal or come close to DVD drives and such upgrade may not burden the overall cost. Most will have to wait for this to happen, and then the HD-DVD drive upgrade may occur with xbox360.
HD-DVD equipped xbox360 can play as double edged swore at this time, but when price isn't affected, I'm all in for the idea.
and what about the 10 million odd 360 owners who wont be able to access the games that the GAME STUDIOS will want to put on those discs? and what about M$ saying MANY times that they Don't see the point, that DVD is good enough for games?
It makes no sense to put a HD-DVD drive in the 360 it will only piss off more customers, it does make sense if you want to praise the holy grail of HD-DVD love in, that some people here seem so keen on.
One of the things I'm anticipating for 4Q is the release on BD of some my of old time favorites that I only have on Criterion LDs, such as 2001, Close Encounters and Blade Runner.
So let's put aside the bickering on which format is winning, the who-cares talk about game players as game players and the debatable and slightly suspect financial data being thrown around and let's move on to something else.
I'm curious, what's the steps that studios have to go through to take an older movie that's on film and make the necessary transfers to turn it into HDM? Anyone help me out here?
Have you any idea how funny I find that?
you DONT want to talk about all the possible variations on a theme RE HiDef formats - but you DO want to talk about Blade Runner!!!
A film thats had a gazillion variations made me laugh!
Anyway, taking your point, I'm very interested in reading a review on the PQ of Blade Runner, as I understand it Ridley is overseeing as much of it as he can, so I'm hopeful that it will look as good as it can.
I read a review of Flatliners (mid 80s) and it seems THAT had a better transfare than a lot of more recent films, but then as I recall the same happened with SD-DVD in the early days. it really does appear to be up to the source material and the care taken over the transfare.
I really cant see 30GB vs 50GB makeing a huge difference in terms of codecs unless the studios insist on cramming on hours of usless filler, or of course if its an over long film.
-
I fell asleep last night wathing The Fellowship of the Rings on the Apple TV I woke up about the half way point, having joined the 2 DVD halves together into one file, to make a 3 hour 38 min film.
It made me wonder would a 30GB HD-DVD manage that without significant codec artifacting? or will they break it up into two seperate discs like the DVD release? {and then try and claim superior PQ over BD as opposed to pure hassle free one disc because-it-has-the-space 50GB BD}
It's a serious question for anyone
It will be a good day for HiDef when the LOTR films are out IMO
What I am saying is that Xbox Live is allowing members to download movies that are available for purchase in HD DVD format for rentals. I'm sorry if I was not clear enough. Now, how hard is it to imagine that if a person who owns an Xbox 360 that has never seen his or her fave movie in a hi def format would go ahead and rent it to see the difference. And how hard is it to imagine that if they enjoyed the experience very much that they would perhaps consider purchasing that $180 attachment player? Can you not see how said individual would then consider purchasing a hard copy version of what they just saw a bit more than if they did not rent it and see the difference?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe
With that attitude they are also likely, if not MORE likely to just go out and buy the DVD, they already have a player without spending ANY extra cash on a drive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe
{SIGH}
I said DVD as in SD DVD as in the format released in 1997 and the current market leader in the redistribution of film.
They most likely have an SD-DVD player already so it would cost them only the price of the disc to access the film.
I assume the xbox 360 can play SD-DVDs as well? although it wouldn't surprise me if it couldn't. I do know the PS3 can play SD-DVDs.
\
No why on earth would someone be more inclined to purchase a regular DVD rather than a HD DVD copy of a favorite movie after watching a Hi def version on XBox Live? If it's a favorite movie they probably already own it on DVD already since most people already own a DVD player.
Quote:
I really doubt if more than one percent of 360 users have bought an add on, however EVERY PS3 user can play BD, this is why the 360 does not really matter, but the PS3 does, even the honest HD-DVD owners will admit that.
Do you have numbers to support that belief? No that it matters though. I agree with you there. I don't think the majority of XBox 360 owners have purchased the HD DVD attachment for the same reason that the Blu Ray playing capability has not been enough to make it surpass the Xbox 360s sales: MOST consumers are smart enough to sit this war out and not spend money on either format right now. You guys can argue all you want about what is the superior format tech wise but in the end it doesn't matter because superior technology does not guarantee winning a format war. It would be great for the consumers if that's all it took for a format to be decided, but there's more to it than that.
The studios are using BD, it just so happens they are GAMES STUDIOS using up all that lovely space.
Some of the comments on here have gotten VERY blind of late, no wonder murch has left.
and what about the 10 million odd 360 owners who wont be able to access the games that the GAME STUDIOS will want to put on those discs? and what about M$ saying MANY times that they Don't see the point, that DVD is good enough for games?
It makes no sense to put a HD-DVD drive in the 360 it will only piss off more customers, it does make sense if you want to praise the holy grail of HD-DVD love in, that some people here seem so keen on.
What the hell are you talking about?... you're little more incoherent than usual.
This is slightly Off-Topic as it has to do with high-def creation and not consumption, but I thought some of you here might have some ideas. I own a video production company and the following is reposted from another forum
--------
I have a potential client that will be needing content supplied to any number from 1-20 HD flat panels. (1-20 separate locations of a chain) Ideally I would like to give them HD content for their HD panels. This is not necessarily a requirement, but my HD rates are higher so it'd be nice.
I can produce HD, no problem. I've got an HV20 and if I land this client I'll get an A1, my problem is how the heck to get it on their panels. In an SD world I'd simply make a nice user-friendly looping DVD. Am I correct in my interpretation of the DVDSP manual that I can burn HDDVD content to a standard DVD, just not much of it? Anyone know how much time you can fit on one at 1080 or 72op? That could be workable at first, but as time goes on it'd be nice if this thing had enough varied content that it ran awhile before repeating.
The other problem with the HDDVD workflow being that I don't think HDDVD is going to make it. Even if I'm wrong the wait for HDDVD burners seems to just keep getting longer and longer, so I'm stuck with what I can fit on standard DVD.
If I get them to go BluRay I don't know how the workflow would go. There's no direct BluRay support in DVDSP 4, but I think I read that Toast can fill in the gap. Is that the case? Is there anyone using a BluRay workflow?
I've also considered going the Mac Mini or Apple TV Route. If it were just in my one location that would be great as I could go a few blocks over and update it from time to time using my MacBook. But, I'd like a solution that will work with all 20-odd locations if they start putting panels in all of them. I can't drive around the country every month or so updating 20 different AppleTVs. Ok, so I could, but I doubt they'd want to pay for it.
So, any answers or other suggestions?
Well... here is a link for HD-DVD authoring guide on DVD, but you can probably get some of our questions answered from the AVS folks as well.
Comments
The idea that Target - or any other large-scale consumer retailer - would freely give up valuable shelf space to a niche product format is ridiculous. You obviously know even less about retail than you do about the disc market
I think that the big retailers charge all their suppliers for shelf space. Our farm pays for pecan displays in large supermarkets. Both Blu-ray and HD-DVD probably pay for the shelf space that they get.
That is totally different from Toshiba bribing a manufacturer to switch sides.
If this were the case--that 360 add-on owners would come around the ball park of the PS3--well, then Blu-ray has a much, much better attach rate than HD DVD considering they've outsold them in disc purchases for the entire year at a 2/3:1 clip.
You're probably right about PS3 having better attach rate than xbox360 owners, when compared within the gaming console contributions in the format war. We know significant amount of non-gamers are buying PS3 with main purpose of Blu-Ray HDM playback. However, HD-DVD does have cheaper standalone player solutions, hence there are more standalone HD-DVD players than standalone blu-ray players. Unlike Blu-Ray, the gaming console isn't the best solution for HDM playback for HD-DVD supporters. Most non-gamers would probably not go with xbox360 route.
That's not logic, it's rationalization. And not a very good one.
The idea that Target - or any other large-scale consumer retailer - would freely give up valuable shelf space to a niche product format is ridiculous. You obviously know even less about retail than you do about the disc market
That space is likely being paid for in cash and kind, just like Toshiba's "marketing exclusives" deal with Paramount. The only difference here is that you are willing to say making such a deal "makes sense" whereas you and you ilk raised all kinds of conspiracy nonsense about the Toshiba deal. That's called blatant hypocrisy.
And seriously, you - of all people - really shouldn't be lecturing anyone on fanboyism.
exactly... especially HDM status still being niche with the high price tag of $499 at stores like Target. This will be waste of shelf space for Target shoppers.... unless the retail price change to below $250. Sony is paying for that space....... But this is business.
And it is business when Toshiba pays for other things like the end cap at local BB along with Samsung, LG, and Sony trying demo their products. No conspiracy here.
In the HD arena, the 360 is not competition. You're talking about competition in the gaming arena, in which case, you might as well start arguing how the Wii and the PS2 are doing great in sales.
No, because the Wii is not a HD device. That's somewhat arbitrary but really the Wii isn't a next generation console anyway hardware wise. Its a gamecube with a new controller and a faster processor.
Wii sales don't constrain PS3 sales as much as 360 sales do IMHO. In any case, 360+HD DVD add on is direct competition within the HD arena.
Vinea
Sure. I'm sure people love downloading 30GB movies. That only takes, what, 5 hours assuming you're not stuck with DSL or slower? As for the $180 attachment, sales figures prove it's not flying off the shelves. You mention the Elite. Yeah, it's such a bargain to buy a $459 console (only the Elite has the HDMI required for 1080p) then add a $180 attachment, rather than buying a $499 console with a built-in HD drive.
I don't think the bitrates are the same and the aren't sending 30GB down.
In any case, if you go to a streaming implementation then you need to only download sufficient buffer to handle pauses and you don't need 5 hours worth of DL before you get to watch your 2 hour movie.
Keep telling yourself that. An awful lot of PS3 owners at AVS say they've bought lots of Blu-ray movies but much fewer games, putting the lie to "games are most important."
AVS is not a representative PS3 market. Or the attach rates of Blu-Ray would be through the roof. That would indicate that "games are most important". You have to be really obstinate to claim that games are not the most important aspect of any GAME console.
Vinea
4. Due to the PS3 having a blu-ray player, the only hope that HD-DVD had was if the PS3 died as a gaming unit, and that is not occurring, the PS3 will end up with half of X.
5. so HD-DVD is doomed, QED.
Well...conversely the only way that Blu-Ray would have extinguished HD-DVD is if the PS3 didn't do 30% X but instead did 70% X as they did with the PS2. While the sales rate from time of launch is equal the fact is that 2 years ago no one would have expected 360 parity with the PS3.
HD-DVD isn't doomed if they can offset the PS3 with $99-$199 players this Christmas. Then they might have numerical parity IF the mass market adopts it despite the format war because its cheap enough to risk. $99 is more certain. $199 less certain. For $199 I'd rather get little Johnny a DS, PSP, 360, Wii or PS3 for more money and worry about HD discs next year when hopefully there is no format war going on.
The entertainment budget is a zero sum game and frankly the format war is a variable parents don't need when looking at gifts over $100.
Vinea
Uh, no.
They would not "already have the player" since the Xbox 360 does not come with it. The HD DVD player is offered as an attachment. This has been stated in several posts.
It'd have been better if the Elite had the HD-DVD player IN it.
That's not logic, it's rationalization. And not a very good one.
The idea that Target - or any other large-scale consumer retailer - would freely give up valuable shelf space to a niche product format is ridiculous. You obviously know even less about retail than you do about the disc market
And you obviously know even less about providing links or some kind of proof to support your claims...and you wonder why I mentioned fanboyism. We are all fanboys to some degree, but at the very least, do us all a favor and be an informed fanboy...link please!
I'm simply deducing what is stated in the article directly, not contriving conspiracy theories as yourself. Funny how you labeled the $150 million dollar payoff as a conspiracy theory when there was a plethora of links stating that it indeed happened and I provided them as such, but when I give you an article that directly states that the terms of the agreement between Sony and Target deal with end caps on aisles, you contrive notions of conspiracy, but without any links to back it up. Get with it man.
That space is likely being paid for in cash and kind, just like Toshiba's "marketing exclusives" deal with Paramount. The only difference here is that you are willing to say making such a deal "makes sense" whereas you and you ilk raised all kinds of conspiracy nonsense about the Toshiba deal. That's called blatant hypocrisy.
Likely, or fact? The burden of proof is on you.
Moreover, the act of Paramount is much different, in that I don't see Target eliminating HD DVD discs from their stores, as Paramount eliminated their movies from Blu-ray consumers who, from a logistic perspective, provided the most money in terms of sales for them.
I understand business is business, but there is no hypocrisy coming from me. I simply listed an article for your viewing pleasure, and whether there are behind the scenes deals going on for actual "shelf space" remains to be seen or proven. Regardless, this move by Target makes sense in my opinion, again, in the sense that the consumer is overwhelmingly choosing Blu-ray over HD DVD. What part of that don't you get? And you question my knowledge of the disc market? What part of being outsold all year long don't you understand?
Blu-ray is, or is not dominating HD DVD for this year? Answer the question. Therein lies the answer of why I think Target is doubling their shelf space for Blu-ray,...the consumer has spoken and continues to speak. Or maybe, Target should have gone against the consumer trend like Paramount, and totally gotten rid of Blu-ray and went HD DVD exclusive...would that of made better "sense" to you? It doesn't does it? Much like the move by Paramount didn't make any sense from a consumer perspective, but made all the sense in the world from a bribery perspective, thus alienating the majority of the HD consumer base.
It'd have been better if the Elite had the HD-DVD player IN it.
You know, for people with HDM playback in mind, the extra $50 to $100 more for a console may be worth it, but for those who is just in it for the games, it's unecessary cost. Just like when PS3 customers have to pay for Blu-Ray playback capability whether they want it or not. Don't forget that many nextgen console owners do not even own proper HDTV.
I'm sure there will be a point where HD-DVD drive cost equal or come close to DVD drives and such upgrade may not burden the overall cost. Most will have to wait for this to happen, and then the HD-DVD drive upgrade may occur with xbox360.
HD-DVD equipped xbox360 can play as double edged swore at this time, but when price isn't affected, I'm all in for the idea.
HD DVD Still in Beta?
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/sh...Went_Wrong/894
...So where does that leave us now? To whom do Combo discs currently appeal? Average movie buyers have continued to stick with the more affordable DVD-only option, a complete failure of the Trojan Horse plan. HD DVD buyers are upset that they're being forced to pay extra for a "feature" they will rarely (if ever) use. And those who support both HD DVD and Blu-ray would just as soon buy the Blu-ray that's $5 cheaper with the same quality and features. Combo discs put HD DVD in a no-win situation.
Worse than that, the damn discs don't even work half the time! Just the other night, I sat down to watch my recently-purchased HD DVD copy of '300' on my Toshiba HD-XA2 player, and I only made it 45 minutes before the stupid thing froze up and ceased playback. No matter how many times I try to restart the movie, the disc will not play beyond Chapter 14. This is an extremely high-profile release; in fact, it's currently the best-selling title on either the HD DVD or Blu-ray formats, and the disc won't function in a top-of-the-line HD DVD player! Who wants to put up with nonsense like that? I certainly don't.
Let's not kid ourselves that this is an isolated defective disc or a one-time anomaly. Complaints about playback problems on '300' are widespread, and similar compatibility issues have plagued earlier Combo releases such as 'Children of Men', 'The Good Shepherd', 'Happy Feet', 'Superman Returns', and 'The Matrix Reloaded' (copies from the expensive 'Ultimate Matrix Collection' box set which has the bonus features in DVD format on the flip-side of the disc). Some of these will only work properly on second-generation HD DVD players but not first-generation models, and some bizarrely just the opposite. Some function fine on Toshiba's players but not on Microsoft's HD DVD add-on accessory for the XBox 360, and others vice versa. Some don't work right on any player at all.
The excuses are manifold. First we were told that certain titles were authored out of spec for the HD DVD format, but if that were true why would they work on some players but not others (even within the same player model)? Then we were told it was a manufacturing error having to do with the bonding process that seals the two halves of the disc together. Some people believe that there's a filmy residue on the surface of the discs that the player's laser can't read through, and have claimed better results after cleaning or boiling (yes, boiling!) the discs for a few minutes. For what it's worth, I actually tried this boiling trick on a couple of my non-responsive discs, but it didn't do anything to solve my playback errors.
Universal was good enough to offer a mail-in exchange program for "defective" copies of 'Children of Men' and 'The Good Shepherd'. However, many people who received "corrected" copies found them just as problematic. Later, Toshiba issued a firmware update for their players that seemed to clear up most of the problems with these two titles. If it were really a physical manufacturing error on certain copies, how could a firmware change in the player make a difference? And if it were an authoring mistake that a firmware update can work around, why are brand new discs like '300' still not working correctly? Something just isn't right here.
Well, for all the talk about the profiles of Blu-ray, Joshua Zyber over at HDD wrote a commentary piece that I thought was well balanced and eye opening...
HD DVD Still in Beta?
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/sh...Went_Wrong/894
haha...
eye opening for what?...
This have been already covered here that current combo disc isn't helping with the format war. The extra cost and higher disc defective rate isn't good for anyone, but we knew that already.
Are we here to watch the dead horse die again?
what's even more interesting is what Denon is saying about profile 1.1.....
http://www.listenup.com/content/part...dge.aug.07.php
this will be well beyond the combo disc issues.
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I have a potential client that will be needing content supplied to any number from 1-20 HD flat panels. (1-20 separate locations of a chain) Ideally I would like to give them HD content for their HD panels. This is not necessarily a requirement, but my HD rates are higher so it'd be nice.
I can produce HD, no problem. I've got an HV20 and if I land this client I'll get an A1, my problem is how the heck to get it on their panels. In an SD world I'd simply make a nice user-friendly looping DVD. Am I correct in my interpretation of the DVDSP manual that I can burn HDDVD content to a standard DVD, just not much of it? Anyone know how much time you can fit on one at 1080 or 72op? That could be workable at first, but as time goes on it'd be nice if this thing had enough varied content that it ran awhile before repeating.
The other problem with the HDDVD workflow being that I don't think HDDVD is going to make it. Even if I'm wrong the wait for HDDVD burners seems to just keep getting longer and longer, so I'm stuck with what I can fit on standard DVD.
If I get them to go BluRay I don't know how the workflow would go. There's no direct BluRay support in DVDSP 4, but I think I read that Toast can fill in the gap. Is that the case? Is there anyone using a BluRay workflow?
I've also considered going the Mac Mini or Apple TV Route. If it were just in my one location that would be great as I could go a few blocks over and update it from time to time using my MacBook. But, I'd like a solution that will work with all 20-odd locations if they start putting panels in all of them. I can't drive around the country every month or so updating 20 different AppleTVs. Ok, so I could, but I doubt they'd want to pay for it.
So, any answers or other suggestions?
So let's put aside the bickering on which format is winning, the who-cares talk about game players as game players and the debatable and slightly suspect financial data being thrown around and let's move on to something else.
I'm curious, what's the steps that studios have to go through to take an older movie that's on film and make the necessary transfers to turn it into HDM? Anyone help me out here?
Trying to change the channel eh? Uncomfortable with the question?
The typical HD-DVD obfuscation is very dull, bottom line is, are the sales good?
Uh, no.
They would not "already have the player" since the Xbox 360 does not come with it. The HD DVD player is offered as an attachment. This has been stated in several posts.
{SIGH}
I said DVD as in SD DVD as in the format released in 1997 and the current market leader in the redistribution of film.
They most likely have an SD-DVD player already so it would cost them only the price of the disc to access the film.
I assume the xbox 360 can play SD-DVDs as well? although it wouldn't surprise me if it couldn't. I do know the PS3 can play SD-DVDs.
I really doubt if more than one percent of 360 users have bought an add on, however EVERY PS3 user can play BD, this is why the 360 does not really matter, but the PS3 does, even the honest HD-DVD owners will admit that.
You know, for people with HDM playback in mind, the extra $50 to $100 more for a console may be worth it, but for those who is just in it for the games, it's unecessary cost. Just like when PS3 customers have to pay for Blu-Ray playback capability whether they want it or not. Don't forget that many nextgen console owners do not even own proper HDTV.
links? proof? otherwise its just so much FUD.
The studios are using BD, it just so happens they are GAMES STUDIOS using up all that lovely space.
Some of the comments on here have gotten VERY blind of late, no wonder murch has left.
I'm sure there will be a point where HD-DVD drive cost equal or come close to DVD drives and such upgrade may not burden the overall cost. Most will have to wait for this to happen, and then the HD-DVD drive upgrade may occur with xbox360.
HD-DVD equipped xbox360 can play as double edged swore at this time, but when price isn't affected, I'm all in for the idea.
and what about the 10 million odd 360 owners who wont be able to access the games that the GAME STUDIOS will want to put on those discs? and what about M$ saying MANY times that they Don't see the point, that DVD is good enough for games?
It makes no sense to put a HD-DVD drive in the 360 it will only piss off more customers, it does make sense if you want to praise the holy grail of HD-DVD love in, that some people here seem so keen on.
One of the things I'm anticipating for 4Q is the release on BD of some my of old time favorites that I only have on Criterion LDs, such as 2001, Close Encounters and Blade Runner.
So let's put aside the bickering on which format is winning, the who-cares talk about game players as game players and the debatable and slightly suspect financial data being thrown around and let's move on to something else.
I'm curious, what's the steps that studios have to go through to take an older movie that's on film and make the necessary transfers to turn it into HDM? Anyone help me out here?
Have you any idea how funny I find that?
you DONT want to talk about all the possible variations on a theme RE HiDef formats - but you DO want to talk about Blade Runner!!!
A film thats had a gazillion variations
Anyway, taking your point, I'm very interested in reading a review on the PQ of Blade Runner, as I understand it Ridley is overseeing as much of it as he can, so I'm hopeful that it will look as good as it can.
I read a review of Flatliners (mid 80s) and it seems THAT had a better transfare than a lot of more recent films, but then as I recall the same happened with SD-DVD in the early days. it really does appear to be up to the source material and the care taken over the transfare.
I really cant see 30GB vs 50GB makeing a huge difference in terms of codecs unless the studios insist on cramming on hours of usless filler, or of course if its an over long film.
-
I fell asleep last night wathing The Fellowship of the Rings on the Apple TV I woke up about the half way point, having joined the 2 DVD halves together into one file, to make a 3 hour 38 min film.
It made me wonder would a 30GB HD-DVD manage that without significant codec artifacting? or will they break it up into two seperate discs like the DVD release? {and then try and claim superior PQ over BD as opposed to pure hassle free one disc because-it-has-the-space 50GB BD}
It's a serious question for anyone
It will be a good day for HiDef when the LOTR films are out
What I am saying is that Xbox Live is allowing members to download movies that are available for purchase in HD DVD format for rentals. I'm sorry if I was not clear enough. Now, how hard is it to imagine that if a person who owns an Xbox 360 that has never seen his or her fave movie in a hi def format would go ahead and rent it to see the difference. And how hard is it to imagine that if they enjoyed the experience very much that they would perhaps consider purchasing that $180 attachment player? Can you not see how said individual would then consider purchasing a hard copy version of what they just saw a bit more than if they did not rent it and see the difference?
With that attitude they are also likely, if not MORE likely to just go out and buy the DVD, they already have a player without spending ANY extra cash on a drive.
{SIGH}
I said DVD as in SD DVD as in the format released in 1997 and the current market leader in the redistribution of film.
They most likely have an SD-DVD player already so it would cost them only the price of the disc to access the film.
I assume the xbox 360 can play SD-DVDs as well? although it wouldn't surprise me if it couldn't. I do know the PS3 can play SD-DVDs.
No why on earth would someone be more inclined to purchase a regular DVD rather than a HD DVD copy of a favorite movie after watching a Hi def version on XBox Live? If it's a favorite movie they probably already own it on DVD already since most people already own a DVD player.
I really doubt if more than one percent of 360 users have bought an add on, however EVERY PS3 user can play BD, this is why the 360 does not really matter, but the PS3 does, even the honest HD-DVD owners will admit that.
Do you have numbers to support that belief? No that it matters though. I agree with you there. I don't think the majority of XBox 360 owners have purchased the HD DVD attachment for the same reason that the Blu Ray playing capability has not been enough to make it surpass the Xbox 360s sales: MOST consumers are smart enough to sit this war out and not spend money on either format right now. You guys can argue all you want about what is the superior format tech wise but in the end it doesn't matter because superior technology does not guarantee winning a format war. It would be great for the consumers if that's all it took for a format to be decided, but there's more to it than that.
links? proof? otherwise its just so much FUD.
The studios are using BD, it just so happens they are GAMES STUDIOS using up all that lovely space.
Some of the comments on here have gotten VERY blind of late, no wonder murch has left.
and what about the 10 million odd 360 owners who wont be able to access the games that the GAME STUDIOS will want to put on those discs? and what about M$ saying MANY times that they Don't see the point, that DVD is good enough for games?
It makes no sense to put a HD-DVD drive in the 360 it will only piss off more customers, it does make sense if you want to praise the holy grail of HD-DVD love in, that some people here seem so keen on.
What the hell are you talking about?... you're little more incoherent than usual.
This is slightly Off-Topic as it has to do with high-def creation and not consumption, but I thought some of you here might have some ideas. I own a video production company and the following is reposted from another forum
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I have a potential client that will be needing content supplied to any number from 1-20 HD flat panels. (1-20 separate locations of a chain) Ideally I would like to give them HD content for their HD panels. This is not necessarily a requirement, but my HD rates are higher so it'd be nice.
I can produce HD, no problem. I've got an HV20 and if I land this client I'll get an A1, my problem is how the heck to get it on their panels. In an SD world I'd simply make a nice user-friendly looping DVD. Am I correct in my interpretation of the DVDSP manual that I can burn HDDVD content to a standard DVD, just not much of it? Anyone know how much time you can fit on one at 1080 or 72op? That could be workable at first, but as time goes on it'd be nice if this thing had enough varied content that it ran awhile before repeating.
The other problem with the HDDVD workflow being that I don't think HDDVD is going to make it. Even if I'm wrong the wait for HDDVD burners seems to just keep getting longer and longer, so I'm stuck with what I can fit on standard DVD.
If I get them to go BluRay I don't know how the workflow would go. There's no direct BluRay support in DVDSP 4, but I think I read that Toast can fill in the gap. Is that the case? Is there anyone using a BluRay workflow?
I've also considered going the Mac Mini or Apple TV Route. If it were just in my one location that would be great as I could go a few blocks over and update it from time to time using my MacBook. But, I'd like a solution that will work with all 20-odd locations if they start putting panels in all of them. I can't drive around the country every month or so updating 20 different AppleTVs. Ok, so I could, but I doubt they'd want to pay for it.
So, any answers or other suggestions?
Well... here is a link for HD-DVD authoring guide on DVD, but you can probably get some of our questions answered from the AVS folks as well.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=705146