Zero Punctuation's take on the console wars. (extremely NSFW language, and a bit dated (August) but an excellent commentary on each console's shortcomings!)
That video was great. Quite a good summary of the situation I'd say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
Well there's a rock-solid argument if I've ever seen one; appeal to anonymous Internet poster authority.
I wasn't appealing to any type of authority, you asked a question and I said my opinion on that point was the same as iPoster's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
Of course it has an element of truth. There are a lot of kid-friendly games on the Nintendo. This does not mean that Nintendo products are solely for kids anymore than the fact that my car is often driven on a highway means that my car was built solely for highways.
The car wasn't built 'solely' for it but here you are working in absolutes again. You do get cars which are designed for certain types of terrain whether or not you choose to drive them on a variety of terrain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
It's a bit redundant to attack your astounding ignorance of human nature (loathing violence = weakness; women love to get beaten up; etc?), but what you are describing is actually the symptomatic progression of substance abuse.
I didn't actually say either of those things so I'll assume you just decided to go off on your own tangent. I believe that's symptomatic of substance abuse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
Which seems to make your viewpoint more narrow and inflexible and, therefore, less mature.
Uh, I don't think so somehow. If a kid asks me to play a kids game and I say I could but I'd rather not, I hardly think that makes me less mature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
Where is the Wii regularly in stock for $250?
I can get a $280 Xbox 360 right now. I can get one 30 minutes from now. I will have no problem at all getting one.
I don't see your point, that's just what I was saying. The Wii isn't in stock because it was cheaper and sold out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
If the attraction was price, why would they pay more for a Wii than a PS3 off-the-shelf (there are plenty of those on shelves)?
I already answered that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
Just like with Mario/Zelda games.
AI in Mario? You mean the advanced AI where the bombermen run around aimlessly trying to home in on your location? You mean varied locations like having a different solid color on a planet? You mean different weapons like jumping on something or punching it? No, not just like Mario/Zelda.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
Sure, but what does this mean? Complexity for complexity's sake isn't good. A more complex game is not necessarily a better or more mature game.
It's not complexity for the sake of complexity. It's complexity which results from more advanced development i.e an actual progression of gaming since it started. When gaming first arrived, there were no advanced games. It was Pong or nothing. Games progressed in terms of complexity, depth and entertainment value. Nintendo is staying in the 90s with basic button bashing or Wii swishing in order to win games.
With modern FPS games you actually have to think about what you are doing, you don't just see an enemy and jump on their head to gain a star. You actually have to use real-life tactics to take an enemy down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
Why should anyone care about the "identity" of a games console?
As nvidia said, brand identity is meaningful. No one should care but that's not to say they don't. Also, these brand identities exist for a reason and they have implications for developers who want to associate their product with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
Yet you paint Mario/Zelda-type games with that stagnation brush? you should try being less hypocritical and dishonest in your talking points.
If I'm being hypocritical then you are too since you are doing the same. In fact you are doubly hypocritical because you are criticizing me for being hypocritical, which is itself hypocrisy. But that doesn't make me doubly hypocritical for observing your double hypocrisy.
Uh, I don't think so somehow. If a kid asks me to play a kids game and I say I could but I'd rather not, I hardly think that makes me less mature.
How is being less flexible a good thing? How can an inability to do something simple be an admirable trait?
I can have fun playing Half-Life 2 and Mario Galaxy and Wii Bowling and Rock Star.
I think that is objectively better than only being able to have fun playing Half-Life 2.
Quote:
I don't see your point, that's just what I was saying. The Wii isn't in stock because it was cheaper and sold out.
Two questions:
Do you sincerely think the $30 difference between the 360 and the Wii is a strong factor in choosing between them?
Why spend $400 on a $250 retail product when, as you argue, people only buy it because it is cheap?
Quote:
AI in Mario? You mean the advanced AI where the bombermen run around aimlessly trying to home in on your location? You mean varied locations like having a different solid color on a planet? You mean different weapons like jumping on something or punching it? No, not just like Mario/Zelda.
I mean different capabilities, different weapons, different environments (space, under water, etc…), and enemies with different behaviors.
Quote:
Nintendo is staying in the 90s with basic button bashing or Wii swishing in order to win games.
How do 360 and PS3 controllers work if not "button bashing"? See how far you get in a PS3/360 game without pressing buttons.
Quote:
With modern FPS games you actually have to think about what you are doing, you don't just see an enemy and jump on their head to gain a star. You actually have to use real-life tactics to take an enemy down.
Yes, you don't jump on their head, you shoot them in the head.
Quote:
If I'm being hypocritical then you are too since you are doing the same. In fact you are doubly hypocritical because you are criticizing me for being hypocritical, which is itself hypocrisy. But that doesn't make me doubly hypocritical for observing your double hypocrisy.
What hypocrisy? When have I called an entire genre of game stagnant? I play FPS games and RTS games, and while they are not dramatically different from their forebears, I wouldn't be so stupid as to say they haven't changed at all.
You are the one ignorantly attacking an entire genre of games and showing an obvious ignorance of their content.
Adventure/platform games like Mario/Zelda and FPS/RTS games have all evolved over the course of time.
Nope I make definitions that encompass variables. I don't feel the need to work in absolute terms.
It's more mature and intense when you use relevant facts and arguments that do not need to be obfuscated by inventing your own definitions and not disclosing them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
Isn't Portal technically a first person shooter? That can be pretty complex.
It's a puzzle game. I'm beginning to wonder if you understand the difference between gameplay and presentation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008
In this decade, Unreal Tournament 2004, UT3, has to be considered as significantly advancing the FPS genre, IMO.
Firstly, yes, there have been many CaptureTheFlag gamestyles. However, in UT3, the vehicles, and vehicle designs take things to an interesting new level. Vehicles in particular like Necris Viper, Darkwalker, and Scavenger really mix things up, ...
Then there is UT2004 (Onslaught) and UT3 (Warfare) "strategy" gameplay. ...
There is this "orb" in Warfare mode. ...
^^^ This is how to do it.
Specific, unambiguous and relevant arguments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
With modern FPS games you actually have to think about what you are doing, you don't just see an enemy and jump on their head to gain a star. You actually have to use real-life tactics to take an enemy down.
Such as pointing at them with a mouse and pressing a button?
I browsed some COD4 single player clips from Youtube. The core gameplay has nothing to do with realism. The simplest infantry fighting techniques, taught starting from ~2-3 weeks of our basic training, are omitted. The strafing, pointing and clicking that is left in the assault scenes is little more than Counterstrike in nicer clothes. Nice graphics and scripted sequences though.
How is being less flexible a good thing? How can an inability to do something simple be an admirable trait?
I can have fun playing Half-Life 2 and Mario Galaxy and Wii Bowling and Rock Star.
I think that is objectively better than only being able to have fun playing Half-Life 2.
By mentioning 'inability' again shows you didn't read what I said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
Two questions:
Do you sincerely think the $30 difference between the 360 and the Wii is a strong factor in choosing between them?
Why spend $400 on a $250 retail product when, as you argue, people only buy it because it is cheap?
There may be a lower price difference now but that wasn't the case before, which is why I think the market will look different after Christmas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
I mean different capabilities, different weapons, different environments (space, under water, etc…), and enemies with different behaviors.
Well yeah but where is the progression from games that were out years ago? The statement you just made applies to the original Mario. Wolfenstein did not have advanced AI whereas CoD 4 does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
How do 360 and PS3 controllers work if not "button bashing"? See how far you get in a PS3/360 game without pressing buttons.
It doesn't surprise me that you don't know the difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
Yes, you don't jump on their head, you shoot them in the head.
They are far from equivalent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
What hypocrisy? When have I called an entire genre of game stagnant? I play FPS games and RTS games, and while they are not dramatically different from their forebears, I wouldn't be so stupid as to say they haven't changed at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
FPS games do not vary. For god's sake, what does the acronym "FPS" stand for?
Ouch, might want to check that contradiction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
Adventure/platform games like Mario/Zelda and FPS/RTS games have all evolved over the course of time.
But Mario/Zelda never beyond the level of accessibility to children.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon
It's more mature and intense when you use relevant facts and arguments that do not need to be obfuscated by inventing your own definitions and not disclosing them.
I'll dumb it down a bit so you get it this time. Inexperienced gamers think that games targeted to them are intense. Experienced gamers know that games targeted to inexperienced gamers are not. Therefore the definition of intense varies based on the level of gaming experience you have or if you are older, the level of gaming intensity that you are comfortable with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon
It's a puzzle game. I'm beginning to wonder if you understand the difference between gameplay and presentation.
Ah so let me get this right. You are playing in the first person. You have a gun, which you shoot. I guess that makes it a puzzle game. It's a puzzle based FPS, FPS is not as narrow a genre as you like to believe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon
The core gameplay has nothing to do with realism.
That would be why they constantly researched modern warfare techniques by consulting people in the actual military who are in interviews saying how accurately the game portrays modern combat? Even going so far as to suggest it might be possible to use Call of Duty 4 as a training simulation.
By mentioning 'inability' again shows you didn't read what I said.
What is the difference? You apparently find no fun in simple games. That is not something that makes you more mature. If it has anything to do with maturity, it shows you are less mature.
Quote:
There may be a lower price difference now but that wasn't the case before, which is why I think the market will look different after Christmas.
I have been going around fairly often trying to find Guitar Hero III for the Wii. At Target last night there were 6 PS3s with 8 Rock Band games for that (and assorted Guitar Hero), 10 Xbox 360s with 6 Rock Band games for that (and assorted Guitar Hero). No Wiis, not Guitar Hero for Wii. They got 4 Wiis and 3 GH-Wiis in that morning and they were sold out 45 minutes after the store opened.
That is anecdotal evidence, yes, but it's something I see myself all the time and someone people report all the time.
And, of course, I can just re-post my hard evidence…
You have no rationale behind why you think "the market will look different after Christmas". There are no reports of Wii sales flagging or PS3/XBox sales booming. Nothing even anecdotal supports it.
Quote:
Well yeah but where is the progression from games that were out years ago?
What the hell does this even mean? It is your assertion that Mario/Zelda games haven't changed, and that assertion is flatly untrue.
Quote:
It doesn't surprise me that you don't know the difference.
Tell me the difference.
Do you mean that you have to press buttons at the right time or the move fails? (Like timing a jump to land on a moving platform or on top of an enemy instead of in front or behind?)
Do you mean that you have to press a series of buttons in sequence or the move fails? (Like jumping up walls and going across moving obstacles?)
Quote:
Ouch, might want to check that contradiction.
What contradiction? What FPS game varies from another? They are all FPS. You have a gun in front of you and you shoot the enemies. It's a cheap observation, because the acronym itself purposefully categorizes a certain type of game; if they did vary they wouldn't be FPS games anymore.
What's funny about that is that you quote me saying that FPS games evolve over time. Perhaps you should learn what the word "vary" means.
Quote:
But Mario/Zelda never beyond the level of accessibility to children.
Children are part of the target audience. Not the entire target audience, but part of it.
The UI you are using to type this post is designed to be accessible to children, why aren't you in a command prompt in Linux BIG STRONG INTERNET MAN?
Quote:
Therefore the definition of intense varies based on the level of gaming experience you have or if you are older, the level of gaming intensity that you are comfortable with.
"Intense" means "intense", it doesn't vary based on game genre. Perhaps you just aren't very good at coming up with the right word for the job.
Quote:
That would be why they constantly researched modern warfare techniques by consulting people in the actual military who are in interviews saying how accurately the game portrays modern combat? Even going so far as to suggest it might be possible to use Call of Duty 4 as a training simulation.
You should change your username to "I LOVE MARKETING!"
Ah so let me get this right. You are playing in the first person. You have a gun, which you shoot. I guess that makes it a puzzle game. It's a puzzle based FPS, FPS is not as narrow a genre as you like to believe.
I'm guessing that makes Super Mario Sunshine a 3rd person shooter then.
Quote:
That would be why they constantly researched modern warfare techniques by consulting people in the actual military who are in interviews saying how accurately the game portrays modern combat?
They need experts to make it look good and superficially "correct". I don't know how much you know about game development, but the full design documents, illustrations etc. for a major title grow to thousands of pages, regardless of if it's a fantasy game or realistic. The environment needs to be internally consistent and whole to be immersive.
What you don't notice are the elements of a real tactical scenario that are missing and that the game makes no attempt to replicate. They would make things too difficult for your average "intense mature" sixteen-year old console gamer, and also repetitive, boring and unfair. That's why they are not in a mass market console game, and never will be. There'd be no point.
Quote:
Even going so far as to suggest it might be possible to use Call of Duty 4 as a training simulation.
You can take a cutting-edge training tool like VBS2 far ahead of an interactive movie like COD4 in realism, stick the same extreme-mature sixteen-year olds in the driver's seat, and while you'd have a rhythm of action closer to the real thing, it would be a team deathmatch.
The presence and intervention of professional instructors, a focus on a particular thing to train, chain of command, communication and adherence to standard operating procecures are elements that turn a game into a useful, relevant training exercise. Additional tools and out-of-game rules round out the training environment.
Even going so far as to suggest it might be possible to use Call of Duty 4 as a training simulation.
They found real police officers to say similar things about the original Police Quest. Does that mean that Police Quest is too intense and mature for Wii players?
I have been going around fairly often trying to find Guitar Hero III for the Wii. At Target last night there were 6 PS3s with 8 Rock Band games for that (and assorted Guitar Hero), 10 Xbox 360s with 6 Rock Band games for that (and assorted Guitar Hero). No Wiis, not Guitar Hero for Wii. They got 4 Wiis and 3 GH-Wiis in that morning and they were sold out 45 minutes after the store opened.
That is anecdotal evidence, yes, but it's something I see myself all the time and someone people report all the time.
You have no rationale behind why you think "the market will look different after Christmas". There are no reports of Wii sales flagging or PS3/XBox sales booming. Nothing even anecdotal supports it.
Absolutely correct, I have never talked to a store that didn't sell out of their Wii shipment in 30-45 minutes. Recently I was at the base Exchange on Fort Bragg, they literally had stacks of 30-40 PS3s and 360s each on the floor of the game department, not a Wii in sight. If I'd had my camera with me I would have taken a picture, it was so comical!
Results 1 - 10 of about 14,300,000 for how to find a wii
Almost all the results for 'how to find a PS3' are from last Christmas, or are how to find a cheap PS3: Results 1 - 10 of about 5,910,000 for how to find a PS3.
This season my Aunt went out of her way to find a Wii...for my 70+ year old Grandmother and Great Aunt (who live together now). Maybe not 'intense' gamers, but they over qualify as 'mature'! And another sale for Nintendo over Sony or Microsoft.
What is the difference? You apparently find no fun in simple games. That is not something that makes you more mature. If it has anything to do with maturity, it shows you are less mature.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one or we'll just go in circles. I don't believe that my lack of desire to play children's games makes me immature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
I have been going around fairly often trying to find Guitar Hero III for the Wii. At Target last night there were 6 PS3s with 8 Rock Band games for that (and assorted Guitar Hero), 10 Xbox 360s with 6 Rock Band games for that (and assorted Guitar Hero). No Wiis, not Guitar Hero for Wii. They got 4 Wiis and 3 GH-Wiis in that morning and they were sold out 45 minutes after the store opened.
Wii owners like kids games like Guitar Hero. PS3 and 360 customers are more hardcore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
That is anecdotal evidence, yes, but it's something I see myself all the time and someone people report all the time.
You mean my anecdotal evidence was just based on what I experience some of the time? This would make your anecdotal evidence more accurate and it conveniently supports your own bias?
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
And, of course, I can just re-post my hard evidence?
Yeah but that 'evidence' is based on the assumption that all consoles are marketed to a common demographic, which I don't believe is the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
You have no rationale behind why you think "the market will look different after Christmas". There are no reports of Wii sales flagging or PS3/XBox sales booming. Nothing even anecdotal supports it.
You're looking at total sales. The 360 is actually outselling the Wii in America but is doing terribly in Japan. Can we even lump hugely different cultures together and make general assessments about the habits of any one culture? I don't believe we can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
Tell me the difference.
Do you mean that you have to press buttons at the right time or the move fails? (Like timing a jump to land on a moving platform or on top of an enemy instead of in front or behind?)
Do you mean that you have to press a series of buttons in sequence or the move fails? (Like jumping up walls and going across moving obstacles?)
I'm not going to fall for that one because it seems suspiciously like you're going to say Mario and/or Zelda have these things. Anyway, things like Wii sports, just swishing the controller around is button bashing. Not all games will be. For example, I'd imagine that Burnout on the Wii isn't vastly removed from Burnout on the PS3 or 360. Again, I mean that most games are just targeted to kids and it's those games with the simplistic controls where you score points with just uncontrolled thrashing. I've seen videos on youtube of kids playing with the Wii and that's all they do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
Children are part of the target audience. Not the entire target audience, but part of it.
The UI you are using to type this post is designed to be accessible to children, why aren't you in a command prompt in Linux BIG STRONG INTERNET MAN?
I am not looking for an intense experience that will draw me into the action. But when I do need to get something hardcore done, I use the command line and I do so daily.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
"Intense" means "intense", it doesn't vary based on game genre. Perhaps you just aren't very good at coming up with the right word for the job.
I didn't say it varied based on genre unless you are defining the target audience as a genre.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
You should change your username to "I LOVE MARKETING!"
Well, normally I'd agree that it's just a marketing angle but I would have said the same thing about Gran Tourismo (note: Playstation exclusive). Then I saw the comparison done on Top Gear:
I don't consider GT to be a very intense game btw, this is about research and realism vs marketing.
Btw, Groverat I noticed you said you played the Orange Box. I'm curious as to why you might think they didn't port it to the Wii.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon
I'm guessing that makes Super Mario Sunshine a 3rd person shooter then.
Nope because you don't primarily shoot things, it's a platformer. Portal is a modification of an FPS, Mario isn't. You can use the Portal gun inside HL2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon
They need experts to make it look good and superficially "correct". I don't know how much you know about game development, but the full design documents, illustrations etc. for a major title grow to thousands of pages, regardless of if it's a fantasy game or realistic. The environment needs to be internally consistent and whole to be immersive.
Yeah but the development effort goes deeper than superficial. The bullets in CoD 4 for example have different penetration levels depending on what material they are hitting. These things affect the game considerably. I've played PSone games where you could perform a head shot using a shotgun with the same efficiency as a sniper rifle. Some games have moved on and the effort shows. The PS3 and XBox 360 are powerful enough to handle very realistic physics and this completely affects how the game plays.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon
What you don't notice are the elements of a real tactical scenario that are missing and that the game makes no attempt to replicate. They would make things too difficult for your average "intense mature" sixteen-year old console gamer, and also repetitive, boring and unfair. That's why they are not in a mass market console game, and never will be. There'd be no point.
I'll agree there, they still have to weight the development effort towards entertainment value in the end and doing so can easily be at the expense of realism. But that doesn't reduce the achievement of the development effort involved in the higher end games.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guartho
They found real police officers to say similar things about the original Police Quest. Does that mean that Police Quest is too intense and mature for Wii players?
I knew this would happen. Somehow game intensity and the point about the complexity in games has become mixed together. Just because a game is complex does not make it intense (Gran Tourismo). Just because a game is intense does not make it complex (possibly Burnout). But there needs to be some level of both in order to satisfy a hardcore gamer and children's games are weak on both counts. Mild content and simplistic controls (Mario).
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPoster
Or this, google results for 'how to find a wii':
Results 1 - 10 of about 14,300,000 for how to find a wii
Hmmm, you get 15.1 million for how to find a gay. That seems like one hell of a coincidence. Or maybe it's completely meaningless results given that the Xbox returns 13.7 million.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPoster
This season my Aunt went out of her way to find a Wii...for my 70+ year old Grandmother and Great Aunt (who live together now). Maybe not 'intense' gamers, but they over qualify as 'mature'! And another sale for Nintendo over Sony or Microsoft.
I meant immature as in immature gamer i.e underdeveloped/inexperienced. I imagine your elderly relatives qualify for that.
All you need are another 2.5 million OAPs to buy a Wii and they'll be neck and neck with the 360 sales in America. Not sure how that'll affect Nintendo's reputation though. First they were all about the kids, now they're after the OAPs. They're going to be the most uncool consoles ever.
I can hear the kids at school now - 'Haha you have a Wii? My Grandma has one of them'. *pummelling ensues*.
Oh boy..... I can't figure out what's more embarrassing: the fact that this thread is really beyond sad, or the fact that the handful of posters that atavistically go back-and forth (as though they are on their game-controller autopilot) doesn't realize that it is beyond sad.
Oh boy..... I can't figure out what's more embarrassing: the fact that this thread is really beyond sad, or the fact that the handful of posters that atavistically go back-and forth (as though they are on their game-controller autopilot) doesn't realize that it is beyond sad.
Ewwww.......
Quit it, guys.
What makes this thread worse than any other? If it's a subject you don't care about then don't post. The thread subject is concerning the Wii relative to the other consoles. This is no different from say the long Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD discussion (hell yeah 116 pages here we come ).
I actually think the thread has been pretty good and has at least stayed true to the topic at hand. It's unlikely to be a topic that will be resolved as it's opinion based but very few good discussions can be resolved quickly.
One thing that probably puts people off is the long posts so maybe we can try to cut down on the length of those. Believe it or not I'm trying to but the Wii people are all over this thread and all the non-Wii people have buggered off.
If I can reduce it, I'd like to discuss the following main points:
- The 360 is actually outselling the Wii in America but is doing terribly in Japan. Cultural differences.
- Why aren't games like the Orange Box on the Wii? Underpowered?
- Do games need to become more complex with the development effort required or are simple games enough given that people have enjoyed simple games for years? Will there ever be a limit to how complex they can become and if we reach that state will they stop being innovative?
We can move away from the whole target demographic issue as that's not really going anywhere and it's obvious enough that it doesn't need to be analyzed.
Wii owners like kids games like Guitar Hero. PS3 and 360 customers are more hardcore.
Why, then, are sales for GH and Rock Band so high?
Quote:
You mean my anecdotal evidence was just based on what I experience some of the time? This would make your anecdotal evidence more accurate and it conveniently supports your own bias?
Anecdotal evidence regarding measurable reality is different than anecdotal evidence regarding personal opinion. It is either true or untrue that there are PS3s and XBoxes left on the shelves longer than Wiis. There is no truth about one's personal opinion with regards to the enjoyability of games or, even more subjectively, whether or not certain games are "cool".
Quote:
Yeah but that 'evidence' is based on the assumption that all consoles are marketed to a common demographic, which I don't believe is the case.
So it is you assertion that MS and Sony purposefully market their products to a smaller market than Nintendo's? I don't think that's the case at all.
I'm not going to fall for that one because it seems suspiciously like you're going to say Mario and/or Zelda have these things.
Fall for what? Mario and Zelda have varied gameplay control and elements. To be successful, you need to do things in sequence with proper timing while avoiding obstacles and enemies. You can avoid it all you like, but it's true.
Quote:
Well, normally I'd agree that it's just a marketing angle but I would have said the same thing about Gran Tourismo (note: Playstation exclusive).
It's marketing. It's all marketing.
Quote:
Btw, Groverat I noticed you said you played the Orange Box. I'm curious as to why you might think they didn't port it to the Wii.
Too much work, I'd imagine, and the Wii probably doesn't have the horsepower to make it look like they want.
Thanks to BRAVIA TVs, Sony's stock is actually doing decent, even immediately after said fiascoes. Then again, if it weren't for Blu-Ray (I think PS3 would be at least as successful as Xbox 360 otherwise), memory stick, rootkit, exploding battery, etc., Sony would be doing very well.
Why, then, are sales for GH and Rock Band so high?
Maybe it's people that couldn't get a Wii?
It's probably just some Christmas thing. Families are always looking to buy unique gifts just to see the looks on people's faces when you open it, not realizing it's not really a good surprise.
I bet the second hand bins will be full of Guitar Hero after Christmas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
Anecdotal evidence regarding measurable reality is different than anecdotal evidence regarding personal opinion. It is either true or untrue that there are PS3s and XBoxes left on the shelves longer than Wiis. There is no truth about one's personal opinion with regards to the enjoyability of games or, even more subjectively, whether or not certain games are "cool".
You only know about the stores you've seen and my opinion is based on people I've come in contact with over a number of years which is a social observation. Also, having PS3s and 360s left on shelves is a good thing. That means supply > demand so fewer unhappy people at Christmas time.
Plus, like I say although you are seeing more boxes in store, if you are in the US, the XBox 360 is actually doing really well. Some figures put the Wii ahead but others put the 360 ahead so the Wii isn't completely wiping the floor when you also have to consider that the 360 is fighting off the PS3 and a bad reputation for hardware failure. Maybe the extra 360s are in store to allow for exchanges over the Christmas period.
There was also a rumor going round that Nintendo were deliberately holding back supplies. Given the hype that surrounds an out of stock product, it's not surprising why they'd do that really.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
So it is you assertion that MS and Sony purposefully market their products to a smaller market than Nintendo's? I don't think that's the case at all.
Ah no, y'see I think that Sony and Microsoft are targeting a slightly bigger market but it's because their market is divided between PSP, 360, PS3 and PS2 that it seems smaller.
But anyway, I don't think companies necessarily go after the biggest market, they go after the most profitable (like Apple) or at least what they feel is more profitable. They probably know that a 20-something guy would be willing to spend more than the average parent on a game or console.
What parent who has 3 mouths to feed, a mortgage, a car etc. walks into a store and pays £50 for a game? 20-something guys don't have the financial burdens and so can spend a bit more.
What they obviously didn't bank on is that OAPs would be so interested in video games and they have a ton of expendable income.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
Fall for what? Mario and Zelda have varied gameplay control and elements. To be successful, you need to do things in sequence with proper timing while avoiding obstacles and enemies. You can avoid it all you like, but it's true.
Of course but the difficulty is pretty low and even if there are tricky bits, the overall presentation is pretty weak but like I say, it's subjective based on experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
It's marketing. It's all marketing.
If it improves gameplay then it has to be more than purely marketing. You'd probably say that the Wii-mote improves gameplay whereas I think it hinders it and I would say it's a marketing gimmick so I guess it's subjective too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat
Too much work, I'd imagine, and the Wii probably doesn't have the horsepower to make it look like they want.
It surely couldn't be more work than what's required to develop for the PS3. But it's interesting that you mention about looks. I agree with you that it would look pretty bad on the Wii but doesn't that mean the Wii doesn't do it for you? You want to play the Orange Box but it's not available for whatever reason and yet it is for the 360 and PS3.
If software defines a platform then a lack of certain extremely popular games has implications for the platform itself if for whatever reason, it cannot deliver what is needed for the content.
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Originally Posted by iPoster
I know this isn't at all relevant, but I just had to post it:
I don't think they'll do all that badly. They've made a few big mistakes but they can pull it back:
It's probably just some Christmas thing. Families are always looking to buy unique gifts just to see the looks on people's faces when you open it, not realizing it's not really a good surprise.
I bet the second hand bins will be full of Guitar Hero after Christmas.
Yet more predictions from the guy incapable of saying anything worthwhile.
Fortunately, many people who play games do so simply to have fun, not necessarily to perpetuate and imagine about their video game preferences. Some of these people even have friends who are not gamers.
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You only know about the stores you've seen and my opinion is based on people I've come in contact with over a number of years which is a social observation.
I have seen it and I have read/heard others reporting having seen the same thing. Then I see the sales numbers. Anecdotal and hard evidence show that the Wii is selling better and is more popular.
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Also, having PS3s and 360s left on shelves is a good thing. That means supply > demand so fewer unhappy people at Christmas time.
Good for those who want a PS3/XBox 360, yes, not so good for MS and Sony.
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Some figures put the Wii ahead but others put the 360 ahead so the Wii isn't completely wiping the floor when you also have to consider that the 360 is fighting off the PS3 and a bad reputation for hardware failure.
What numbers show the 360 ahead?
Who said the Wii was "wiping the floor" with the 360? (It is wiping the floor with the PS3.)
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Maybe the extra 360s are in store to allow for exchanges over the Christmas period.
This makes absolutely no sense at all. They are there to be sold, not to be held in case of exchange. All repairs on the consoles is handled by Sony/MS, anyway.
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There was also a rumor going round that Nintendo were deliberately holding back supplies. Given the hype that surrounds an out of stock product, it's not surprising why they'd do that really.
It is extremely surprising given that they actually profit from every Wii sale. That rumor is beyond stupid and I am not surprised at all that you believe it. (Wii rainchecks)
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Ah no, y'see I think that Sony and Microsoft are targeting a slightly bigger market but it's because their market is divided between PSP, 360, PS3 and PS2 that it seems smaller.
PSP? Nintendo dominates the handheld side. Keep trying.
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But anyway, I don't think companies necessarily go after the biggest market, they go after the most profitable (like Apple) or at least what they feel is more profitable.
Which company is making the most profit off of their game products? Keep trying.
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They probably know that a 20-something guy would be willing to spend more than the average parent on a game or console.
They're right. It's unfortunate that they actually lose money on the console, then, isn't it?
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Of course but the difficulty is pretty low and even if there are tricky bits, the overall presentation is pretty weak but like I say, it's subjective based on experience.
You have no experience with it, though, that's the key. You obviously haven't played these games.
Is Zelda: Twilight Princess as difficult as Ninja Gaiden: Sigma? No. It's no easier than Ratchet & Clank or even Halo on medium settings.
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If it improves gameplay then it has to be more than purely marketing. You'd probably say that the Wii-mote improves gameplay whereas I think it hinders it and I would say it's a marketing gimmick so I guess it's subjective too.
When did I say the gameplay itself was marketing? It is the "OMG THE ARMY USES IT IT'S SO REAL" nonsense that is just marketing.
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I agree with you that it would look pretty bad on the Wii but doesn't that mean the Wii doesn't do it for you?
Doesn't do what for me? Play a game I'd rather play on a PC than any console?
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You want to play the Orange Box but it's not available for whatever reason and yet it is for the 360 and PS3.
It's on the PC, which is superior for FPS gaming than the 360 or PS3.
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If software defines a platform then a lack of certain extremely popular games has implications for the platform itself if for whatever reason, it cannot deliver what is needed for the content.
I am sure that if Valve really wanted to they could make a decent version of HL2 for the Wii. But there's no real reason for them to. The reason they won't involve themselves in a Wii version is the same reason they bothered to make inferior versions for the PS3 and 360… money. There isn't a big market for FPS games on the Wii.
There is for the 360/PS3, and I don't understand it. FPS games without a mouse/keyboard combination are baffling.
Thanks to BRAVIA TVs, Sony's stock is actually doing decent, even immediately after said fiascoes. Then again, if it weren't for Blu-Ray (I think PS3 would be at least as successful as Xbox 360 otherwise), memory stick, rootkit, exploding battery, etc., Sony would be doing very well.
I'm no stock player, but last time I checked they were still a sell. For example, this is from Business Wire:
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Sony Struggles with PlayStation 3
We believe Sony Corp. (NYSE: SNE) will continue to struggle as it faces competition from innovative digital products and struggles to ramp production of PlayStation 3. In addition, Sony is facing increasing competition from low-cost manufacturers in Asia as the consumer market slows. We therefore maintain a Sell recommendation on SNE shares set a new $42.50 price target.
Sony is currently banking on its next-generation game console, PlayStation 3 (PS3), to drive its video game business. However, an overly complex design and high price tag resulted in long delays and a slow uptake by the market. We believe Sony has significantly damaged its position in the video game market and has lost substantial ground to Nintendo. Although the company has reduced the price by $100, the PS3 costs far more than the Xbox 360 or Wii game consoles.
Although Sony maintains strong distribution channels and a brand name, we would avoid the stock until the company demonstrates sustainable improvements in results. Our new price target reflects a P/E multiple of approximately 15.6x our estimated fiscal 2007 EPADR of $2.73 and 14.0x our estimated fiscal 2007 EPADR of $3.03, which we believe is a reasonable valuation for a company in Sony's position.
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Originally Posted by groverat
FPS games without a mouse/keyboard combination are baffling.
Gospel. I tried Halo/Halo 2 on my younger brother's Xbox. I just didn't see the attraction, I guess when a console is all you've got you think that type of FPS is good.
Comments
....Why should anyone care about the "identity" of a games console?...
I think he was referring to something like "brand identity"....
1 - Avoid stupid image macros.
2 - One post at a time.
Let there be peace on Earth!
Just not in this thread! LOL
Zero Punctuation's take on the console wars. (extremely NSFW language, and a bit dated (August) but an excellent commentary on each console's shortcomings!)
Well there's a rock-solid argument if I've ever seen one; appeal to anonymous Internet poster authority.
I wasn't appealing to any type of authority, you asked a question and I said my opinion on that point was the same as iPoster's.
Of course it has an element of truth. There are a lot of kid-friendly games on the Nintendo. This does not mean that Nintendo products are solely for kids anymore than the fact that my car is often driven on a highway means that my car was built solely for highways.
The car wasn't built 'solely' for it but here you are working in absolutes again. You do get cars which are designed for certain types of terrain whether or not you choose to drive them on a variety of terrain.
It's a bit redundant to attack your astounding ignorance of human nature (loathing violence = weakness; women love to get beaten up; etc?), but what you are describing is actually the symptomatic progression of substance abuse.
I didn't actually say either of those things so I'll assume you just decided to go off on your own tangent. I believe that's symptomatic of substance abuse.
Which seems to make your viewpoint more narrow and inflexible and, therefore, less mature.
Uh, I don't think so somehow. If a kid asks me to play a kids game and I say I could but I'd rather not, I hardly think that makes me less mature.
Where is the Wii regularly in stock for $250?
I can get a $280 Xbox 360 right now. I can get one 30 minutes from now. I will have no problem at all getting one.
I don't see your point, that's just what I was saying. The Wii isn't in stock because it was cheaper and sold out.
If the attraction was price, why would they pay more for a Wii than a PS3 off-the-shelf (there are plenty of those on shelves)?
I already answered that.
Just like with Mario/Zelda games.
Sure, but what does this mean? Complexity for complexity's sake isn't good. A more complex game is not necessarily a better or more mature game.
It's not complexity for the sake of complexity. It's complexity which results from more advanced development i.e an actual progression of gaming since it started. When gaming first arrived, there were no advanced games. It was Pong or nothing. Games progressed in terms of complexity, depth and entertainment value. Nintendo is staying in the 90s with basic button bashing or Wii swishing in order to win games.
With modern FPS games you actually have to think about what you are doing, you don't just see an enemy and jump on their head to gain a star. You actually have to use real-life tactics to take an enemy down.
Why should anyone care about the "identity" of a games console?
As nvidia said, brand identity is meaningful. No one should care but that's not to say they don't. Also, these brand identities exist for a reason and they have implications for developers who want to associate their product with it.
Yet you paint Mario/Zelda-type games with that stagnation brush? you should try being less hypocritical and dishonest in your talking points.
If I'm being hypocritical then you are too since you are doing the same. In fact you are doubly hypocritical because you are criticizing me for being hypocritical, which is itself hypocrisy. But that doesn't make me doubly hypocritical for observing your double hypocrisy.
Oh, I'm sorry. This is abuse.
Uh, I don't think so somehow. If a kid asks me to play a kids game and I say I could but I'd rather not, I hardly think that makes me less mature.
How is being less flexible a good thing? How can an inability to do something simple be an admirable trait?
I can have fun playing Half-Life 2 and Mario Galaxy and Wii Bowling and Rock Star.
I think that is objectively better than only being able to have fun playing Half-Life 2.
I don't see your point, that's just what I was saying. The Wii isn't in stock because it was cheaper and sold out.
Two questions:
Do you sincerely think the $30 difference between the 360 and the Wii is a strong factor in choosing between them?
Why spend $400 on a $250 retail product when, as you argue, people only buy it because it is cheap?
AI in Mario? You mean the advanced AI where the bombermen run around aimlessly trying to home in on your location? You mean varied locations like having a different solid color on a planet? You mean different weapons like jumping on something or punching it? No, not just like Mario/Zelda.
I mean different capabilities, different weapons, different environments (space, under water, etc…), and enemies with different behaviors.
Nintendo is staying in the 90s with basic button bashing or Wii swishing in order to win games.
How do 360 and PS3 controllers work if not "button bashing"? See how far you get in a PS3/360 game without pressing buttons.
With modern FPS games you actually have to think about what you are doing, you don't just see an enemy and jump on their head to gain a star. You actually have to use real-life tactics to take an enemy down.
Yes, you don't jump on their head, you shoot them in the head.
If I'm being hypocritical then you are too since you are doing the same. In fact you are doubly hypocritical because you are criticizing me for being hypocritical, which is itself hypocrisy. But that doesn't make me doubly hypocritical for observing your double hypocrisy.
What hypocrisy? When have I called an entire genre of game stagnant? I play FPS games and RTS games, and while they are not dramatically different from their forebears, I wouldn't be so stupid as to say they haven't changed at all.
You are the one ignorantly attacking an entire genre of games and showing an obvious ignorance of their content.
Adventure/platform games like Mario/Zelda and FPS/RTS games have all evolved over the course of time.
Nope I make definitions that encompass variables. I don't feel the need to work in absolute terms.
It's more mature and intense when you use relevant facts and arguments that do not need to be obfuscated by inventing your own definitions and not disclosing them.
Isn't Portal technically a first person shooter? That can be pretty complex.
It's a puzzle game. I'm beginning to wonder if you understand the difference between gameplay and presentation.
In this decade, Unreal Tournament 2004, UT3, has to be considered as significantly advancing the FPS genre, IMO.
Firstly, yes, there have been many CaptureTheFlag gamestyles. However, in UT3, the vehicles, and vehicle designs take things to an interesting new level. Vehicles in particular like Necris Viper, Darkwalker, and Scavenger really mix things up, ...
Then there is UT2004 (Onslaught) and UT3 (Warfare) "strategy" gameplay. ...
There is this "orb" in Warfare mode. ...
^^^ This is how to do it.
Specific, unambiguous and relevant arguments.
With modern FPS games you actually have to think about what you are doing, you don't just see an enemy and jump on their head to gain a star. You actually have to use real-life tactics to take an enemy down.
Such as pointing at them with a mouse and pressing a button?
I browsed some COD4 single player clips from Youtube. The core gameplay has nothing to do with realism. The simplest infantry fighting techniques, taught starting from ~2-3 weeks of our basic training, are omitted. The strafing, pointing and clicking that is left in the assault scenes is little more than Counterstrike in nicer clothes. Nice graphics and scripted sequences though.
How is being less flexible a good thing? How can an inability to do something simple be an admirable trait?
I can have fun playing Half-Life 2 and Mario Galaxy and Wii Bowling and Rock Star.
I think that is objectively better than only being able to have fun playing Half-Life 2.
By mentioning 'inability' again shows you didn't read what I said.
Two questions:
Do you sincerely think the $30 difference between the 360 and the Wii is a strong factor in choosing between them?
Why spend $400 on a $250 retail product when, as you argue, people only buy it because it is cheap?
There may be a lower price difference now but that wasn't the case before, which is why I think the market will look different after Christmas.
I mean different capabilities, different weapons, different environments (space, under water, etc…), and enemies with different behaviors.
Well yeah but where is the progression from games that were out years ago? The statement you just made applies to the original Mario. Wolfenstein did not have advanced AI whereas CoD 4 does.
How do 360 and PS3 controllers work if not "button bashing"? See how far you get in a PS3/360 game without pressing buttons.
It doesn't surprise me that you don't know the difference.
Yes, you don't jump on their head, you shoot them in the head.
They are far from equivalent.
What hypocrisy? When have I called an entire genre of game stagnant? I play FPS games and RTS games, and while they are not dramatically different from their forebears, I wouldn't be so stupid as to say they haven't changed at all.
FPS games do not vary. For god's sake, what does the acronym "FPS" stand for?
Ouch, might want to check that contradiction.
Adventure/platform games like Mario/Zelda and FPS/RTS games have all evolved over the course of time.
But Mario/Zelda never beyond the level of accessibility to children.
It's more mature and intense when you use relevant facts and arguments that do not need to be obfuscated by inventing your own definitions and not disclosing them.
I'll dumb it down a bit so you get it this time. Inexperienced gamers think that games targeted to them are intense. Experienced gamers know that games targeted to inexperienced gamers are not. Therefore the definition of intense varies based on the level of gaming experience you have or if you are older, the level of gaming intensity that you are comfortable with.
It's a puzzle game. I'm beginning to wonder if you understand the difference between gameplay and presentation.
Ah so let me get this right. You are playing in the first person. You have a gun, which you shoot. I guess that makes it a puzzle game. It's a puzzle based FPS, FPS is not as narrow a genre as you like to believe.
The core gameplay has nothing to do with realism.
That would be why they constantly researched modern warfare techniques by consulting people in the actual military who are in interviews saying how accurately the game portrays modern combat? Even going so far as to suggest it might be possible to use Call of Duty 4 as a training simulation.
By mentioning 'inability' again shows you didn't read what I said.
What is the difference? You apparently find no fun in simple games. That is not something that makes you more mature. If it has anything to do with maturity, it shows you are less mature.
There may be a lower price difference now but that wasn't the case before, which is why I think the market will look different after Christmas.
I have been going around fairly often trying to find Guitar Hero III for the Wii. At Target last night there were 6 PS3s with 8 Rock Band games for that (and assorted Guitar Hero), 10 Xbox 360s with 6 Rock Band games for that (and assorted Guitar Hero). No Wiis, not Guitar Hero for Wii. They got 4 Wiis and 3 GH-Wiis in that morning and they were sold out 45 minutes after the store opened.
That is anecdotal evidence, yes, but it's something I see myself all the time and someone people report all the time.
And, of course, I can just re-post my hard evidence…
You have no rationale behind why you think "the market will look different after Christmas". There are no reports of Wii sales flagging or PS3/XBox sales booming. Nothing even anecdotal supports it.
Well yeah but where is the progression from games that were out years ago?
What the hell does this even mean? It is your assertion that Mario/Zelda games haven't changed, and that assertion is flatly untrue.
It doesn't surprise me that you don't know the difference.
Tell me the difference.
Do you mean that you have to press buttons at the right time or the move fails? (Like timing a jump to land on a moving platform or on top of an enemy instead of in front or behind?)
Do you mean that you have to press a series of buttons in sequence or the move fails? (Like jumping up walls and going across moving obstacles?)
Ouch, might want to check that contradiction.
What contradiction? What FPS game varies from another? They are all FPS. You have a gun in front of you and you shoot the enemies. It's a cheap observation, because the acronym itself purposefully categorizes a certain type of game; if they did vary they wouldn't be FPS games anymore.
What's funny about that is that you quote me saying that FPS games evolve over time. Perhaps you should learn what the word "vary" means.
But Mario/Zelda never beyond the level of accessibility to children.
Children are part of the target audience. Not the entire target audience, but part of it.
The UI you are using to type this post is designed to be accessible to children, why aren't you in a command prompt in Linux BIG STRONG INTERNET MAN?
Therefore the definition of intense varies based on the level of gaming experience you have or if you are older, the level of gaming intensity that you are comfortable with.
"Intense" means "intense", it doesn't vary based on game genre. Perhaps you just aren't very good at coming up with the right word for the job.
That would be why they constantly researched modern warfare techniques by consulting people in the actual military who are in interviews saying how accurately the game portrays modern combat? Even going so far as to suggest it might be possible to use Call of Duty 4 as a training simulation.
You should change your username to "I LOVE MARKETING!"
Ah so let me get this right. You are playing in the first person. You have a gun, which you shoot. I guess that makes it a puzzle game. It's a puzzle based FPS, FPS is not as narrow a genre as you like to believe.
I'm guessing that makes Super Mario Sunshine a 3rd person shooter then.
That would be why they constantly researched modern warfare techniques by consulting people in the actual military who are in interviews saying how accurately the game portrays modern combat?
They need experts to make it look good and superficially "correct". I don't know how much you know about game development, but the full design documents, illustrations etc. for a major title grow to thousands of pages, regardless of if it's a fantasy game or realistic. The environment needs to be internally consistent and whole to be immersive.
What you don't notice are the elements of a real tactical scenario that are missing and that the game makes no attempt to replicate. They would make things too difficult for your average "intense mature" sixteen-year old console gamer, and also repetitive, boring and unfair. That's why they are not in a mass market console game, and never will be. There'd be no point.
Even going so far as to suggest it might be possible to use Call of Duty 4 as a training simulation.
Hmm.. I think I have heard that before?
You can take a cutting-edge training tool like VBS2 far ahead of an interactive movie like COD4 in realism, stick the same extreme-mature sixteen-year olds in the driver's seat, and while you'd have a rhythm of action closer to the real thing, it would be a team deathmatch.
The presence and intervention of professional instructors, a focus on a particular thing to train, chain of command, communication and adherence to standard operating procecures are elements that turn a game into a useful, relevant training exercise. Additional tools and out-of-game rules round out the training environment.
Even going so far as to suggest it might be possible to use Call of Duty 4 as a training simulation.
They found real police officers to say similar things about the original Police Quest. Does that mean that Police Quest is too intense and mature for Wii players?
I have been going around fairly often trying to find Guitar Hero III for the Wii. At Target last night there were 6 PS3s with 8 Rock Band games for that (and assorted Guitar Hero), 10 Xbox 360s with 6 Rock Band games for that (and assorted Guitar Hero). No Wiis, not Guitar Hero for Wii. They got 4 Wiis and 3 GH-Wiis in that morning and they were sold out 45 minutes after the store opened.
That is anecdotal evidence, yes, but it's something I see myself all the time and someone people report all the time.
You have no rationale behind why you think "the market will look different after Christmas". There are no reports of Wii sales flagging or PS3/XBox sales booming. Nothing even anecdotal supports it.
Absolutely correct, I have never talked to a store that didn't sell out of their Wii shipment in 30-45 minutes. Recently I was at the base Exchange on Fort Bragg, they literally had stacks of 30-40 PS3s and 360s each on the floor of the game department, not a Wii in sight. If I'd had my camera with me I would have taken a picture, it was so comical!
Funny how they don't have a 360 or PS3 rain-check program?
Or this, google results for 'how to find a wii':
Results 1 - 10 of about 14,300,000 for how to find a wii
Almost all the results for 'how to find a PS3' are from last Christmas, or are how to find a cheap PS3: Results 1 - 10 of about 5,910,000 for how to find a PS3.
This season my Aunt went out of her way to find a Wii...for my 70+ year old Grandmother and Great Aunt (who live together now). Maybe not 'intense' gamers, but they over qualify as 'mature'! And another sale for Nintendo over Sony or Microsoft.
What is the difference? You apparently find no fun in simple games. That is not something that makes you more mature. If it has anything to do with maturity, it shows you are less mature.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one or we'll just go in circles. I don't believe that my lack of desire to play children's games makes me immature.
I have been going around fairly often trying to find Guitar Hero III for the Wii. At Target last night there were 6 PS3s with 8 Rock Band games for that (and assorted Guitar Hero), 10 Xbox 360s with 6 Rock Band games for that (and assorted Guitar Hero). No Wiis, not Guitar Hero for Wii. They got 4 Wiis and 3 GH-Wiis in that morning and they were sold out 45 minutes after the store opened.
Wii owners like kids games like Guitar Hero. PS3 and 360 customers are more hardcore.
That is anecdotal evidence, yes, but it's something I see myself all the time and someone people report all the time.
You mean my anecdotal evidence was just based on what I experience some of the time? This would make your anecdotal evidence more accurate and it conveniently supports your own bias?
And, of course, I can just re-post my hard evidence?
Yeah but that 'evidence' is based on the assumption that all consoles are marketed to a common demographic, which I don't believe is the case.
You have no rationale behind why you think "the market will look different after Christmas". There are no reports of Wii sales flagging or PS3/XBox sales booming. Nothing even anecdotal supports it.
You're looking at total sales. The 360 is actually outselling the Wii in America but is doing terribly in Japan. Can we even lump hugely different cultures together and make general assessments about the habits of any one culture? I don't believe we can.
Tell me the difference.
Do you mean that you have to press buttons at the right time or the move fails? (Like timing a jump to land on a moving platform or on top of an enemy instead of in front or behind?)
Do you mean that you have to press a series of buttons in sequence or the move fails? (Like jumping up walls and going across moving obstacles?)
I'm not going to fall for that one because it seems suspiciously like you're going to say Mario and/or Zelda have these things. Anyway, things like Wii sports, just swishing the controller around is button bashing. Not all games will be. For example, I'd imagine that Burnout on the Wii isn't vastly removed from Burnout on the PS3 or 360. Again, I mean that most games are just targeted to kids and it's those games with the simplistic controls where you score points with just uncontrolled thrashing. I've seen videos on youtube of kids playing with the Wii and that's all they do.
Children are part of the target audience. Not the entire target audience, but part of it.
The UI you are using to type this post is designed to be accessible to children, why aren't you in a command prompt in Linux BIG STRONG INTERNET MAN?
I am not looking for an intense experience that will draw me into the action. But when I do need to get something hardcore done, I use the command line and I do so daily.
"Intense" means "intense", it doesn't vary based on game genre. Perhaps you just aren't very good at coming up with the right word for the job.
I didn't say it varied based on genre unless you are defining the target audience as a genre.
You should change your username to "I LOVE MARKETING!"
Well, normally I'd agree that it's just a marketing angle but I would have said the same thing about Gran Tourismo (note: Playstation exclusive). Then I saw the comparison done on Top Gear:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=3
I don't consider GT to be a very intense game btw, this is about research and realism vs marketing.
Btw, Groverat I noticed you said you played the Orange Box. I'm curious as to why you might think they didn't port it to the Wii.
I'm guessing that makes Super Mario Sunshine a 3rd person shooter then.
Nope because you don't primarily shoot things, it's a platformer. Portal is a modification of an FPS, Mario isn't. You can use the Portal gun inside HL2.
They need experts to make it look good and superficially "correct". I don't know how much you know about game development, but the full design documents, illustrations etc. for a major title grow to thousands of pages, regardless of if it's a fantasy game or realistic. The environment needs to be internally consistent and whole to be immersive.
Yeah but the development effort goes deeper than superficial. The bullets in CoD 4 for example have different penetration levels depending on what material they are hitting. These things affect the game considerably. I've played PSone games where you could perform a head shot using a shotgun with the same efficiency as a sniper rifle. Some games have moved on and the effort shows. The PS3 and XBox 360 are powerful enough to handle very realistic physics and this completely affects how the game plays.
What you don't notice are the elements of a real tactical scenario that are missing and that the game makes no attempt to replicate. They would make things too difficult for your average "intense mature" sixteen-year old console gamer, and also repetitive, boring and unfair. That's why they are not in a mass market console game, and never will be. There'd be no point.
I'll agree there, they still have to weight the development effort towards entertainment value in the end and doing so can easily be at the expense of realism. But that doesn't reduce the achievement of the development effort involved in the higher end games.
They found real police officers to say similar things about the original Police Quest. Does that mean that Police Quest is too intense and mature for Wii players?
I knew this would happen. Somehow game intensity and the point about the complexity in games has become mixed together. Just because a game is complex does not make it intense (Gran Tourismo). Just because a game is intense does not make it complex (possibly Burnout). But there needs to be some level of both in order to satisfy a hardcore gamer and children's games are weak on both counts. Mild content and simplistic controls (Mario).
Or this, google results for 'how to find a wii':
Results 1 - 10 of about 14,300,000 for how to find a wii
Hmmm, you get 15.1 million for how to find a gay. That seems like one hell of a coincidence. Or maybe it's completely meaningless results given that the Xbox returns 13.7 million.
This season my Aunt went out of her way to find a Wii...for my 70+ year old Grandmother and Great Aunt (who live together now). Maybe not 'intense' gamers, but they over qualify as 'mature'! And another sale for Nintendo over Sony or Microsoft.
I meant immature as in immature gamer i.e underdeveloped/inexperienced. I imagine your elderly relatives qualify for that.
All you need are another 2.5 million OAPs to buy a Wii and they'll be neck and neck with the 360 sales in America. Not sure how that'll affect Nintendo's reputation though. First they were all about the kids, now they're after the OAPs. They're going to be the most uncool consoles ever.
I can hear the kids at school now - 'Haha you have a Wii? My Grandma has one of them'. *pummelling ensues*.
Ewwww.......
Quit it, guys.
Oh boy..... I can't figure out what's more embarrassing: the fact that this thread is really beyond sad, or the fact that the handful of posters that atavistically go back-and forth (as though they are on their game-controller autopilot) doesn't realize that it is beyond sad.
Ewwww.......
Quit it, guys.
What makes this thread worse than any other? If it's a subject you don't care about then don't post. The thread subject is concerning the Wii relative to the other consoles. This is no different from say the long Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD discussion (hell yeah 116 pages here we come
I actually think the thread has been pretty good and has at least stayed true to the topic at hand. It's unlikely to be a topic that will be resolved as it's opinion based but very few good discussions can be resolved quickly.
One thing that probably puts people off is the long posts so maybe we can try to cut down on the length of those. Believe it or not I'm trying to but the Wii people are all over this thread and all the non-Wii people have buggered off.
If I can reduce it, I'd like to discuss the following main points:
- The 360 is actually outselling the Wii in America but is doing terribly in Japan. Cultural differences.
- Why aren't games like the Orange Box on the Wii? Underpowered?
- Do games need to become more complex with the development effort required or are simple games enough given that people have enjoyed simple games for years? Will there ever be a limit to how complex they can become and if we reach that state will they stop being innovative?
We can move away from the whole target demographic issue as that's not really going anywhere and it's obvious enough that it doesn't need to be analyzed.
Wii owners like kids games like Guitar Hero. PS3 and 360 customers are more hardcore.
Why, then, are sales for GH and Rock Band so high?
You mean my anecdotal evidence was just based on what I experience some of the time? This would make your anecdotal evidence more accurate and it conveniently supports your own bias?
Anecdotal evidence regarding measurable reality is different than anecdotal evidence regarding personal opinion. It is either true or untrue that there are PS3s and XBoxes left on the shelves longer than Wiis. There is no truth about one's personal opinion with regards to the enjoyability of games or, even more subjectively, whether or not certain games are "cool".
Yeah but that 'evidence' is based on the assumption that all consoles are marketed to a common demographic, which I don't believe is the case.
So it is you assertion that MS and Sony purposefully market their products to a smaller market than Nintendo's? I don't think that's the case at all.
These two games were big parts of MS and Sony marketing. - Viva Pinata & Little Big Planet
I'm not going to fall for that one because it seems suspiciously like you're going to say Mario and/or Zelda have these things.
Fall for what? Mario and Zelda have varied gameplay control and elements. To be successful, you need to do things in sequence with proper timing while avoiding obstacles and enemies. You can avoid it all you like, but it's true.
Well, normally I'd agree that it's just a marketing angle but I would have said the same thing about Gran Tourismo (note: Playstation exclusive).
It's marketing. It's all marketing.
Btw, Groverat I noticed you said you played the Orange Box. I'm curious as to why you might think they didn't port it to the Wii.
Too much work, I'd imagine, and the Wii probably doesn't have the horsepower to make it look like they want.
(not my work, from LLBBL.com)
Why, then, are sales for GH and Rock Band so high?
Maybe it's people that couldn't get a Wii?
It's probably just some Christmas thing. Families are always looking to buy unique gifts just to see the looks on people's faces when you open it, not realizing it's not really a good surprise.
I bet the second hand bins will be full of Guitar Hero after Christmas.
Anecdotal evidence regarding measurable reality is different than anecdotal evidence regarding personal opinion. It is either true or untrue that there are PS3s and XBoxes left on the shelves longer than Wiis. There is no truth about one's personal opinion with regards to the enjoyability of games or, even more subjectively, whether or not certain games are "cool".
You only know about the stores you've seen and my opinion is based on people I've come in contact with over a number of years which is a social observation. Also, having PS3s and 360s left on shelves is a good thing. That means supply > demand so fewer unhappy people at Christmas time.
Plus, like I say although you are seeing more boxes in store, if you are in the US, the XBox 360 is actually doing really well. Some figures put the Wii ahead but others put the 360 ahead so the Wii isn't completely wiping the floor when you also have to consider that the 360 is fighting off the PS3 and a bad reputation for hardware failure. Maybe the extra 360s are in store to allow for exchanges over the Christmas period.
There was also a rumor going round that Nintendo were deliberately holding back supplies. Given the hype that surrounds an out of stock product, it's not surprising why they'd do that really.
So it is you assertion that MS and Sony purposefully market their products to a smaller market than Nintendo's? I don't think that's the case at all.
These two games were big parts of MS and Sony marketing. - Viva Pinata & Little Big Planet
Ah no, y'see I think that Sony and Microsoft are targeting a slightly bigger market but it's because their market is divided between PSP, 360, PS3 and PS2 that it seems smaller.
But anyway, I don't think companies necessarily go after the biggest market, they go after the most profitable (like Apple) or at least what they feel is more profitable. They probably know that a 20-something guy would be willing to spend more than the average parent on a game or console.
What parent who has 3 mouths to feed, a mortgage, a car etc. walks into a store and pays £50 for a game? 20-something guys don't have the financial burdens and so can spend a bit more.
What they obviously didn't bank on is that OAPs would be so interested in video games and they have a ton of expendable income.
Fall for what? Mario and Zelda have varied gameplay control and elements. To be successful, you need to do things in sequence with proper timing while avoiding obstacles and enemies. You can avoid it all you like, but it's true.
Of course but the difficulty is pretty low and even if there are tricky bits, the overall presentation is pretty weak but like I say, it's subjective based on experience.
It's marketing. It's all marketing.
If it improves gameplay then it has to be more than purely marketing. You'd probably say that the Wii-mote improves gameplay whereas I think it hinders it and I would say it's a marketing gimmick so I guess it's subjective too.
Too much work, I'd imagine, and the Wii probably doesn't have the horsepower to make it look like they want.
It surely couldn't be more work than what's required to develop for the PS3. But it's interesting that you mention about looks. I agree with you that it would look pretty bad on the Wii but doesn't that mean the Wii doesn't do it for you? You want to play the Orange Box but it's not available for whatever reason and yet it is for the 360 and PS3.
If software defines a platform then a lack of certain extremely popular games has implications for the platform itself if for whatever reason, it cannot deliver what is needed for the content.
I know this isn't at all relevant, but I just had to post it:
I don't think they'll do all that badly. They've made a few big mistakes but they can pull it back:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22263333/
Maybe it's people that couldn't get a Wii?
It's probably just some Christmas thing. Families are always looking to buy unique gifts just to see the looks on people's faces when you open it, not realizing it's not really a good surprise.
I bet the second hand bins will be full of Guitar Hero after Christmas.
Yet more predictions from the guy incapable of saying anything worthwhile.
Fortunately, many people who play games do so simply to have fun, not necessarily to perpetuate and imagine about their video game preferences. Some of these people even have friends who are not gamers.
You only know about the stores you've seen and my opinion is based on people I've come in contact with over a number of years which is a social observation.
I have seen it and I have read/heard others reporting having seen the same thing. Then I see the sales numbers. Anecdotal and hard evidence show that the Wii is selling better and is more popular.
Also, having PS3s and 360s left on shelves is a good thing. That means supply > demand so fewer unhappy people at Christmas time.
Good for those who want a PS3/XBox 360, yes, not so good for MS and Sony.
Some figures put the Wii ahead but others put the 360 ahead so the Wii isn't completely wiping the floor when you also have to consider that the 360 is fighting off the PS3 and a bad reputation for hardware failure.
What numbers show the 360 ahead?
Who said the Wii was "wiping the floor" with the 360? (It is wiping the floor with the PS3.)
Maybe the extra 360s are in store to allow for exchanges over the Christmas period.
This makes absolutely no sense at all. They are there to be sold, not to be held in case of exchange. All repairs on the consoles is handled by Sony/MS, anyway.
There was also a rumor going round that Nintendo were deliberately holding back supplies. Given the hype that surrounds an out of stock product, it's not surprising why they'd do that really.
It is extremely surprising given that they actually profit from every Wii sale. That rumor is beyond stupid and I am not surprised at all that you believe it. (Wii rainchecks)
Ah no, y'see I think that Sony and Microsoft are targeting a slightly bigger market but it's because their market is divided between PSP, 360, PS3 and PS2 that it seems smaller.
PSP? Nintendo dominates the handheld side. Keep trying.
But anyway, I don't think companies necessarily go after the biggest market, they go after the most profitable (like Apple) or at least what they feel is more profitable.
Which company is making the most profit off of their game products? Keep trying.
They probably know that a 20-something guy would be willing to spend more than the average parent on a game or console.
They're right. It's unfortunate that they actually lose money on the console, then, isn't it?
Of course but the difficulty is pretty low and even if there are tricky bits, the overall presentation is pretty weak but like I say, it's subjective based on experience.
You have no experience with it, though, that's the key. You obviously haven't played these games.
Is Zelda: Twilight Princess as difficult as Ninja Gaiden: Sigma? No. It's no easier than Ratchet & Clank or even Halo on medium settings.
If it improves gameplay then it has to be more than purely marketing. You'd probably say that the Wii-mote improves gameplay whereas I think it hinders it and I would say it's a marketing gimmick so I guess it's subjective too.
When did I say the gameplay itself was marketing? It is the "OMG THE ARMY USES IT IT'S SO REAL" nonsense that is just marketing.
I agree with you that it would look pretty bad on the Wii but doesn't that mean the Wii doesn't do it for you?
Doesn't do what for me? Play a game I'd rather play on a PC than any console?
You want to play the Orange Box but it's not available for whatever reason and yet it is for the 360 and PS3.
It's on the PC, which is superior for FPS gaming than the 360 or PS3.
If software defines a platform then a lack of certain extremely popular games has implications for the platform itself if for whatever reason, it cannot deliver what is needed for the content.
I am sure that if Valve really wanted to they could make a decent version of HL2 for the Wii. But there's no real reason for them to. The reason they won't involve themselves in a Wii version is the same reason they bothered to make inferior versions for the PS3 and 360… money. There isn't a big market for FPS games on the Wii.
There is for the 360/PS3, and I don't understand it. FPS games without a mouse/keyboard combination are baffling.
Thanks to BRAVIA TVs, Sony's stock is actually doing decent, even immediately after said fiascoes. Then again, if it weren't for Blu-Ray (I think PS3 would be at least as successful as Xbox 360 otherwise), memory stick, rootkit, exploding battery, etc., Sony would be doing very well.
I'm no stock player, but last time I checked they were still a sell. For example, this is from Business Wire:
Sony Struggles with PlayStation 3
We believe Sony Corp. (NYSE: SNE) will continue to struggle as it faces competition from innovative digital products and struggles to ramp production of PlayStation 3. In addition, Sony is facing increasing competition from low-cost manufacturers in Asia as the consumer market slows. We therefore maintain a Sell recommendation on SNE shares set a new $42.50 price target.
Sony is currently banking on its next-generation game console, PlayStation 3 (PS3), to drive its video game business. However, an overly complex design and high price tag resulted in long delays and a slow uptake by the market. We believe Sony has significantly damaged its position in the video game market and has lost substantial ground to Nintendo. Although the company has reduced the price by $100, the PS3 costs far more than the Xbox 360 or Wii game consoles.
Although Sony maintains strong distribution channels and a brand name, we would avoid the stock until the company demonstrates sustainable improvements in results. Our new price target reflects a P/E multiple of approximately 15.6x our estimated fiscal 2007 EPADR of $2.73 and 14.0x our estimated fiscal 2007 EPADR of $3.03, which we believe is a reasonable valuation for a company in Sony's position.
FPS games without a mouse/keyboard combination are baffling.
Gospel. I tried Halo/Halo 2 on my younger brother's Xbox. I just didn't see the attraction, I guess when a console is all you've got you think that type of FPS is good.