Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire

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  • Reply 141 of 1665
    eckingecking Posts: 1,588member
    Quote:

    cameras like Sony's HDR-FX1000, which needs the faster throughput of FireWire (called i.LINK by Sony) to deliver raw content if a card reader isn't used.



    If you weed out the shitty RCA flip camcorders (that no one should buy) from that amazon list that bumps the canon hv30 from #5 to #2 on that list. The hv30 is firewire based. If that statement was from Jobs he is absolutely wrong.



    All new HD cameras are not USB2 and even the Sony FX1000 mentioned in the article is firewire based. The article was also wrong in mentioning the use of a card for the FX1000, it doesn't come with the camera, it is a separate add on. The CF card unit add on to the FX1000 in the article also has firewire as it's only connection option to a computer, I know because I have that CF unit.



    If I was to get a new macbook (which I won't) I would have to jump through the hoop of taking the card out of the CF card unit, putting it in a slower USB card reader, and attaching that to the macbook to offload footage.



    I wanted a macbook for just daily computing and the added bonus of offloading the unit the article mentions (before getting back to my mac pro at home), now I'm gonna buy something from another maker instead, it'll be the first time in 5 years that I've owned a windows computer. Maybe I'll hackintosh it.



    Also even if those SD card based cameras are USB, what about storing footage? Are we supposed to use USB for that? Let me get this straight: shoot to SD cards or hard drive using AVCHD, offload to the computer (which is a beat to edit and the mac can't yet do natively) and then store that high stress, high bandwidth footage on a USB drive? Wow. There goes your performance.
  • Reply 142 of 1665
    bugsnwbugsnw Posts: 706member
    I can't imagine what it's like to literally change the way notebooks are engineered with one innovation after another, then spreading additional new upgrades and features broadly across your product line, only to have people whine about change.



    For all those that just can't use a glossy display without spontaneously combusting, please go buy a Dell and live long and prosper.



    If you are a pro and make money with your Mac, and absolutely require a FW port, the Pro model is there for your professional needs.



    I wish Apple had standardized on FW800 for all their Macs, but I can accept that the lower end will only offer USB. It's going to irritate a few, no doubt, but we've been here before (floppy drives) and heard the same restless souls threaten to switch to Dell.



    I understand debate about the pros and cons of Apple's actions. I understand the frustration for those that own FW400 peripherals. But it would take a hell of a lot more than omitting a FW port to get me to switch to Windows. I would rather man up and get the MBPro or save money and get an excellent deal on the previous model.
  • Reply 143 of 1665
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    Don't be so dramatic. The sustained speed of FW400 over USB2.0 aren't that extreme. If you care about speed you'll use 1000BASE-T, anyway. No need for crossover cable, just plug them in directly and the Mac will determine the RX and TX automatically.



    Ah, but if latency is important, what do we do then?



    Okay, I know a lot of you people say that very few use Firewire on the Macbooks.



    There certainly are a multitude of reasons for that. First one, USB has the most commonly used accessories. Mice, keyboards, thumb drives. Second one, knowledge and price. Hard disk drives, web cameras, digital camcorders.



    But, there's also a lot of people who actually use the Firewire port. Audio interfaces, the aforementioned camcorders, and certainly Firewire hard disk drives. Daisy-chaining is a godsend on port limited systems.



    Anyway. I'd argue that none of these are "pro" features. Anyone who wants to get great sound out of a Macbook will probably default to a Firewire audio interface. (IIRC, Realtek doesn't make anything half decent) Anyone who really use a lot of hard disk space probably use Firewire disks. And so on.



    Not only "pros" care. Disregarding the fact that the Macbook, and iBook were more "consumer" machines than the aluminium Macbook now is.



    Not disregarding the fact, the case here is taking a consumer technology and making it "pro". In the world where I live, technologies get commoditized, not made more scarce. Unless replaced that is. Commoditizing of Firewire seems to be happening in the PC world. Nearly every PC now comes with some kind of Firewire, the high end might even have FW800. The iMac got more Firewire ports in the last update. Also "consumer" hardware. Why not the Macbook?



    As for scarcity of use, I'd chance that Firewire is used a lot more than the optical outputs and inputs, or even the line-in. Get rid of that, too?



    All in all, it's probably a rationalization made because of lack of space on the motherboard. I'm not sure why there's an USB controller on there though. Doesn't the NVIDIA chipset handle that?



    It's late, I'm rambling. Feel free to point out any obvious errors.



    /Adrian
  • Reply 144 of 1665
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ecking View Post


    I wanted a macbook for just daily computing...



    The MacBooks and MacBook Pros that were being sold on Monday are still a great machine that is more than capable for daily computing. Now they are cheaper, come with the warranty, and are a tried-and-true design that has had almost 4 years to get the kinks out.
  • Reply 145 of 1665
    johnqhjohnqh Posts: 242member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post


    What kind of advise is that? a 12 bucks USB case/nice USB 2.0 hub for 20?



    I have been doing Apple/HP + Pro video consulting for the last 8 years.



    "Pro video consulting"... you realize MB is a consumer machine, right?



    Seriously, if you don't like it, get MBP, or get a Windows machine. Vote with your wallet if it is that important to you.



    But like or not, Firewire is dead as a consumer standard. The writing was on the wall when Apple pulled FW from iPod many years ago.
  • Reply 146 of 1665
    iqatedoiqatedo Posts: 1,539member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Olternaut View Post


    Face it people....firewire is dead. You think after the macbook event and Jobs' comments that firewire has much of a future? Go look for adapters in the meantime (and trust me 3rd parties will be all over this) and/or save up to upgrade your peripherals.



    You are saying that Firewire is dead. How do you know that? Is it because Apple dropped it from the MacBook or is it because you read a statement from Apple somewhere that stated 'Firewire is dead'?



    Until a few days ago, every Mac sold had a Firewire interface. Today, not so. Tomorrow - who knows.



    It would not hurt Apple's business model at all to communicate with their users in a proactive way, to have made a statement 6 months ago that entry level Macs (just the MB at present) would be dropping FW. They could then have said that 'however, we are committed to the standard and will continue to support it in other systems' or that 'we will be phasing it out on all systems over time'.



    Without such communication coming from Apple, it is equally valid to say that dropping Firewire from some systems was simply a way of differentiating models in a purely arbitrary way. If this is true, then defending the move simply defends their existing business model, one where users should expect to be left totally in the dark until the decision is dropped on them from above.



    Apple genuinely does not care less about the disappointment these moves cause and it certainly does not care about the divisions such a move causes in forums such as this.
  • Reply 147 of 1665
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Zandros View Post


    As for scarcity of use, I'd chance that Firewire is used a lot more than the optical outputs and inputs, or even the line-in. Get rid of that, too?



    But they are built-into the analog audio input and output so it's not wasted space. Apple supports USB1,0 still, but if USB2.0 used a different port I bet USB1.0 would have been dropped long ago. FW800 will probably stay as FW3200 gets added to the Pro end.



    Does it suck for some? Sure. Does it affect your current setup? Nope. Does it prevent you from buying a now cheaper, well designed MB or MBP that has FW400 included if you need a new machine for the time behind? Not at all.



    If we are going to place any real blame on Apple it should be for not having the foresight to make the FW400 and FW800 ports the same so direct backwards compatibility could be maintained the way that USB3.0 will, but we all saw this coming years ago, even if we didn't want to accept it.



    PS: I was really hoping for that large, unused, power eating, slow reading, even slower writing component called an optical drive would have been removed this time around. I can't recall the last time I used the optical drive and it takes up a lot of room. You could add a 2nd HDD for an internal RAID or Time Machine & an EC/54 slot in the space the drive takes up. Actually, now that it's SATA, I need to see if I can add a 2nd HDD in a RAID0 configuration.
  • Reply 148 of 1665
    EDIT: I did read the post before.



    Resume: waiting for usb3 ^_^
  • Reply 149 of 1665
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by johnqh View Post


    "Pro video consulting"... you realize MB is a consumer machine, right?



    Seriously, if you don't like it, get MBP, or get a Windows machine. Vote with your wallet if it is that important to you.



    But like or not, Firewire is dead as a consumer standard. The writing was on the wall when Apple pulled FW from iPod many years ago.



    LOL, now you try to use what I wrote against me?



    Hehehehehe, Now you made me lmao.



    As a consultant I do provide service to the lowest to the highest level of user/companies.

    For professional video I have 3 Mac Pros fully loaded.

    I always been a proud owner and user, so if you do not understand what is love your machines and the stuff you do with them and how simple things can affect your way to do stuff I really don't know why you spend time here in this forum when so many of us try to help others.
  • Reply 150 of 1665
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,116member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rawhead View Post


    Since when does price per se dictate whether or not a piece of equipment is pro? If you are a customer that absolutely NEEDS to use a FireWire audio interface, you are a pro. If you're not a pro, then you can settle for any number of USB audio interfaces, OR, if you are at that liminal state between a pro and a non-pro, you can always pick up a 2.4GHz white MacBook with FW400 of $1050 refurb as I've repeated like 10 times in this thread. By the time that is obsolete, this will be a total non-issue, even for people like you. So, no, really, you don't comprende at all.



    Are you illiterate or something? I, along with many others on this thread have been providing multiple arguable justifications for Apple removing FW400 from MacBook. It's one thing for you to say that you don't agree with any of them; but it's totally idiotic to claim "there's really no justification"





    Wow..you're really struggling with your argumentation aren't you?



    There has never been a macbook without Firewire. There has never been a Pro=Firewire link.

    Firewire rules the roost (qualitatively) for audio applications from consumer to Pro. I've articulated the technical reason why Firewire is suitable for audio applications over USB and the best you can do is launch ad hominem attacts and , via your bloviation. prove to at least the creative types on this board that you know nothing.



    When I want your opinion I'll give it to you.
  • Reply 151 of 1665
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mukei View Post


    In such a discussion I found a bit strange than no one think of the USB3 which is in development since many years and should be arriving "soon"

    I think Firewire800 will disappear totally when USB3 will be available (The theorical speed is just crazy!)



    FW3200 running at 3.2Gbps should arrive around, if not before USB3.0 and be about 2x as fast again, so the FW800 port design may still live on.
  • Reply 152 of 1665
    I think the fact that Apple just excluded Firewire without any advanced notice it the point here.



    It's exactly like Vista from MS. Your hardware that you spent x on is no longer relevant.



    It's a weak attempt from Apple to say you need the Pro to put out good Video and Audio.



    That has and has always been their advantage that you can "be a video, audio" fan wihtout all the extra's.



    These computers are over priced and have an unnecessary video card that take it out of the reach for the average home buyer.



    Apple should have just said "We are over priced because we have great hardware".



    They don't understand we're in hard times and many would have purchased them for an extra $30 bucks for firewire.



    That's a guess on the pricing but I think my point is made.
  • Reply 153 of 1665
    johnqhjohnqh Posts: 242member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by IQatEdo View Post


    You are saying that Firewire is dead. How do you know that? Is it because Apple dropped it from the MacBook or is it because you read a statement from Apple somewhere that stated 'Firewire is dead'?



    Because Apple dropped it from iPod.
  • Reply 154 of 1665
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,116member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mukei View Post


    In such a discussion I found a bit strange than no one think of the USB3 which is in development since many years and should be arriving "soon"

    I think Firewire800 will disappear totally when USB3 will be available (The theorical speed is just crazy!)



    Correct...FW800 will indeed disappear by the time USB 3.0 comes out. Firewire 3200 will be shipping as the high end FW of choice then.
  • Reply 155 of 1665
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,116member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by johnqh View Post


    Because Apple dropped it from iPod.



    Why would an iPod need to have Firewire? It has it's only battery so the bus power of FW

    isn't needed and the bidirectional benefits of FW do not come into play either.



    The smart choice was to move the iPods to USB though that does not mean that USB is

    always the smart choice over Firewire.
  • Reply 156 of 1665
    iqatedoiqatedo Posts: 1,539member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by johnqh View Post


    Because Apple dropped it from iPod.



    I rest my case. \
  • Reply 157 of 1665
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post


    1/2 Jeff is right. It works without problems IF the disk has been formatted with the correct partition map. Nothing happens when the framerate drops - it even works over WiFi... speed is completely irrelevant for data transfers (if you are patient). And yes, I have tried it. You cannot get into target disk mode via USB though.

    3 is a valid point.



    Sorry man, I wont write something if it didn't happened to me, thats how I use to say things, thru personal experience. I have lost 3 USB 2.0 externals cause the drops and 2 internal HD's on the Mac itself. I gave USB 2.0 cases and standard a very good try for 2 years and didn't worked almost as flawless Firewire has been doing. The only disk I ever lost over a Firewire case was totally my fault cause I dropped the case from 4 feet high.



    If it would happened once I would say it was random, but several times is not right
  • Reply 157 of 1665
    dreyfus2dreyfus2 Posts: 1,056member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    If they cannot then you really can't blame them as it is out of their control, or is that they won't because they only care to add ports that the majority of their customers will use. Seriously though, you point out the ports while alluding to or simply falsely assuming that everything else is the same. Very disingenuous.



    ??? Pardon, I am not sure I can make any sense out of this... Apple is out of control designing their own notebooks? (Well, uh, whatever. In this case it does make sense to talk 15 minutes about torturing aluminum instead...)



    Every single Apple user I know is using Firewire - and even if you only use it once to transfer your data and settings from the previous Mac... so the real figure should be closer to 100% than 2%. And performing this transfer over LAN/WiFi is not an equal option at all (unless you have nothing else to do in life).



    Apple used to be about people who change the world and think different - that's INDIVIDUALS... they were better at that than at assuming what the majority might use. There is no financial or logical or engineering argument why you cannot put a FW port (or a small ExpressCard slot) into a laptop of that size (if I remember correctly they were doing just that until 3 days ago). It is just blackmailing users to buy the next bigger thing. I would happily pay them the price of the 15" MBP for a 13" MB with Firewire (even if this would be a complete rip off). As it stands all the marvel of Apple engineering can do today is create a 13.3" laptop that is more restricted than the 12" PowerBook several years ago. Fatigue?



    I am not alluding everything else is the same, except for the lack of OS X the X200 beats the crap out of all MacBooks and MacBook Airs Apple has on offer and is quite a bit cheaper. The only thing it lacks is a nice aluminum shell. If Apple cannot build any decent machine being smaller than 15.4" and weighing 5 lbs - they should license their OS to somebody with this ability.
  • Reply 159 of 1665
    " I'm sorry that you and others* aren't getting what you want, but the customer base you mention is probably barely a blip on Apple's radar."



    This post pretty much sums it up.



    Most of the naysaying posts are whining because they aren't arguing the decision from the perspective of a mass market product.



    They are merely looking at themselves and saying, "oh Apple, why art you thou doing this to me?"



    I mean it's pretty obvious to everyone that if you're a heavy FW user and you wanted a new MB then you're disappointed. 1+1=2



    Do you have to go on the internet and say what everyone already knows?



    If you want to disagree with the decision then provide some evidence on how new MB sales are going to take a nosedive from this decision. After all this is how Apple is run.



    Otherwise it is pretty much whining.



    From what I can see the vast majority of MB users (I would say 99%) don't have any need for FW.



    When I go the retail store or visit a site like Newegg.com the vast majority of storage devices out there for consumers are USB. There are a few FW/USB storage devices and even fewer (close to zero) FW-only storage devices.



    Also the majority of consumer camcorders of the last year or two are USB. The move is on to Flash memory camcorders which I believe all carry USB interfaces. Canon has previously stated that this where their future lies for their consumer camcorder product.



    Also one can see that Apple hasn't put FW on many other devices including iPods, AppleTV, Time Capsule and the AEBS.



    Last Apple pretty much dropped miniDV support (which usually means FW interface) in IM08 which is their new consumer movie editing software. That was a year ago. Yes it works, but you can't get the quality out to iDVD using IM08.



    This evidence should wipe the surprise from the faces of those who are crying "why me??" It should cut down on the drama at least.



    Standards change. VHS was big awhile back. SCSI. etc.



    The facts are that FW never caught on in the mass market. Intel came out with a much cheaper standard and the lower cost, does the job, good enough interface won the battle.



    And now with the much faster USB3 set to be released in the next year or so. With computers having multiple cores which provide more than enough power that negates the cpu savings advantage of FW. FW is dead on the mass market consumer level.



    It obviously lives on on the pro level. And there are some legacy consumers. But going forward its dead on the consumer level. And the MB is Apple's mass market consumer laptop.



    The reality is the move to an LED screen. To an aluminum body. To a bigger than usual jump in the integrated gpu. To a glass trackpad. etc. These are going to do way more for MB sales than having an old plastic case with FW and a so-so screen did for MB sales.



    IT's not the end of the world for the blip on the radar part of the old MB market. Any last-gen MB bought today is plenty fast. It looks like the new MBs aren't any faster than the old ones except in 3d games. The cpus are slower at least in the $1299 model.



    Also MBPs are available in the refurb store for $1349 which are quite a bit more powerful than the $1299 new MBs. So if you can't step up to a new MBP when you purchase a new machine then you can step up to a refurb MBP.



    In the end, I too am sorry some folks don't like the removal of FW on the new MBs. The reality is these decisions aren't made lightly and are made with millions of consumers in mind. They never can please everyone.
  • Reply 160 of 1665
    johnqhjohnqh Posts: 242member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    Why would an iPod need to have Firewire? It has it's only battery so the bus power of FW

    isn't needed and the bidirectional benefits of FW do not come into play either.



    The smart choice was to move the iPods to USB though that does not mean that USB is

    always the smart choice over Firewire.



    If we rewind memory, there was a huge outcry. The reason was very similar to today.



    Syncing over FW was faster than USB, way way faster than USB1, and when Apple pulled FW, a lot of not-so-old (1 or 2 year old) Macs had USB 1.1 (not 2.0).



    Just to refresh some memory, this is the first article I found regarding the issue (Apple not including FW cable, as the first step)

    http://news.cnet.com/Apple-takes-a-s...3-5587951.html



    I believe later 2005, Nano comes with USB only.



    I am just saying the writing was on the wall for years now (3 years, to be exact). Give it another two years, I think you will agree with me.
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