The alleged cooperation would have been years earlier when Macromedia was in charge. Silverlight is relatively new, only a couple years old. I would assume the warm relations between Adobe and MS has cooled considerably over the Silverlight launch.
well, it may have something to do with mike chambers being very selective about approving any opposing posts. so much for the 'open platform' he's bragging about. i find it hilarious that adobe's 'flash evangelist' and the 'project manager for flash' are out in full force over this.
Eh... I've had dealings with Mike Chambers in the past (circa 2002-5) when I was still fiddling with ColdFusion. Mike was always fair, reasonable and helpful.
At that time, I was trying to use ColdFusion & Flash to present up-to-the-minute stock quotes for a portfolio of less than 100 holdings. I was using Mac OS X, and never could get the performance that others reported for slower Windows systems. I got some help from Mike and others (AIR, none of them were working for MacroMedia/Adobe at that time). After lots of help and effort, we just gave up on Flash for the Mac (there was general agreement that it was a poor implementation). We reported our findings, but there seemed little interest by MacroMedia/Adobe to do anything.
I was able to do the presentation with ColdFusion, native HTML and JavaScript with better than twice the refresh rate of Flash).
To be honest, MacroMedia/Adobe didn't really support ColdFusion on Mac OS X for anything other than development (you had to deploy on Windows, *Nix or Solaris).
It has been my experience, since then, that Mac OS X is perceived as a second class citizen for Flash.
That said, I can understand Mike's loyalty to his product and his employer-- most of us would act the same way.
I'll say it again, though: I wish Adobe would realize the opportunity they have-- to support both (current and future) Flash as well as HTML5. Adobe could offer tools and services to allow creation of solutions for both, and migration between them. They are best qualified to do this.
If Adobe doesn't pick up on this, I suspect someone else will offer a Flash to HTML5 migration system, and carry the day!
... Dude, you guys are pimping something that's not even adopted or finalized! When Flash Player 10.1 hits all the android, symbian, windows, and rim devices, the cheese will stand alone.
Dude, you are pimping Flash Player 10.1, which doesn't exist!
I love this particular brand of irrationality. Cheese indeed!
If Adobe opens up the spec for Flash format I am sure someone will do it. Unfortunately it's a closed format.
i think you have that wrong. from what i've read, the format is relatively open (not sure for how long it has been). it's the player that is proprietary. if adobe were to open source the player, then apple could fix it. i'm sure that would have gone a long way in bringing flash to the iphone. i'm pretty sure that apple wouldn't be quite so eager at this point.
i remember a time when you could set quicktime to play flash content. i don't remember which version it was (i think it was flash 5), but i'm curious if anybody here can explain to me why that was the case then, and what has happened to change that.
At that time, I was trying to use ColdFusion & Flash to present up-to-the-minute stock quotes for a portfolio of less than 100 holdings. I was using Mac OS X, and never could get the performance that others reported for slower Windows systems. I got some help from Mike and others (AIR, none of them were working for MacroMedia/Adobe at that time). After lots of help and effort, we just gave up on Flash for the Mac (there was general agreement that it was a poor implementation). We reported our findings, but there seemed little interest by MacroMedia/Adobe to do anything.
Google seemed to be able to pull off the Flash stock quote application. It is the best Financial quote system on the web far and away. I think the problems you mentioned sum it up.
1. Coldfusion not a main stream application environment
So when Jobs lies about flash being a cpu hog, and everyone just agrees without question, it does have a ripple effect on the rest of the industry. People are making the comment that Adobe is ripping on Apple for something that no other phone has, but they ignore the obvious in that Steve Jobs has no problem ripping on flash under the same exact circumstances.
It's all so stupid.
I have recent (and continued) personal experience that shows that Flash is, in fact, a resource hog on a Mac.
I had run a couple of YouTube Flash videos... all had completed... only one open window had a Flash player in it... the Flash player was not running:
This was run on a 2.8GHz Intel Core 2 Duo iMac 24 with 4GB RAM
This person, agrees with this Jobs truth, because it is consistent with my own experience.
If Adobe doesn't pick up on this, I suspect someone else will offer a Flash to HTML5 migration system, and carry the day!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ihxo
If Adobe opens up the spec for Flash format I am sure someone will do it. Unfortunately it's a closed format.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter if Flash can be converted to HTML5. The move for video is already under way, Gruber has a link today for some HTML5 games that some guy threw together, and Flash doesn't really have anything compelling to offer over the long run: being effectively locked out of the entire mobile market for the moment, and the iP* using segment of that market permanently, isn't exactly going to make it a good choice for anyone that wants to reach those consumers, and everybody does want to reach them.
The move away from Flash towards standards based content is already well under way, and there will be no turning back. Someone, if not Adobe, will create the tools for designers, and they are probably working on them as you read this. People update their websites constantly, so it's not necessary to convert the Flash content, it will simply be replaced with HTML5 content when the next update cycle comes around. In not too long a time, the only place Flash will continue to exist is in Web archives.
Eh... I've had dealings with Mike Chambers in the past (circa 2002-5) when I was still fiddling with ColdFusion. Mike was always fair, reasonable and helpful.
At that time, I was trying to use ColdFusion & Flash to present up-to-the-minute stock quotes for a portfolio of less than 100 holdings. I was using Mac OS X, and never could get the performance that others reported for slower Windows systems. I got some help from Mike and others (AIR, none of them were working for MacroMedia/Adobe at that time). After lots of help and effort, we just gave up on Flash for the Mac (there was general agreement that it was a poor implementation). We reported our findings, but there seemed little interest by MacroMedia/Adobe to do anything.
I was able to do the presentation with ColdFusion, native HTML and JavaScript with better than twice the refresh rate of Flash).
To be honest, MacroMedia/Adobe didn't really support ColdFusion on Mac OS X for anything other than development (you had to deploy on Windows, *Nix or Solaris).
It has been my experience, since then, that Mac OS X is perceived as a second class citizen for Flash.
That said, I can understand Mike's loyalty to his product and his employer-- most of us would act the same way.
I'll say it again, though: I wish Adobe would realize the opportunity they have-- to support both (current and future) Flash as well as HTML5. Adobe could offer tools and services to allow creation of solutions for both, and migration between them. They are best qualified to do this.
If Adobe doesn't pick up on this, I suspect someone else will offer a Flash to HTML5 migration system, and carry the day!
.
while i understand mike's loyalty for his platform, i'm not quite so sure i understand why he would be involving himself in the public spectacle that has been unfolding. so far all we really hear is adobe's public whining, at first in response to a single 'reported' remark of steve jobs at an internal meeting at apple, now obviously because of apple's stance on 3rd party dev tools.
his blog post, while more adult than lee brimelow's rant, is full of flamebait and FUD. hardly what i would call 'fair, reasonable and helpful'. while it's probably useful for riling up the faithful flash devs, it hardly makes adobe look like a company run by reasonable adults.
passion for your product is one thing. washing your dirty laundry in public is another. apple has been characteristically quiet as usual.
i agree 100% with your assessment that adobe has an opportunity to be the company to push development tools forward. i don't think a public pissing contest is the way to set the tone though. i know they're not getting any sympathy from me, and i've been using their products since Illustrator 88.
I have recent (and continued) personal experience that shows that Flash is, in fact, a resource hog on a Mac.
I had run a couple of YouTube Flash videos... all had completed... only one open window had a Flash player in it... the Flash player was not running:
This was run on a 2.8GHz Intel Core 2 Duo iMac 24 with 4GB RAM
This person, agrees with this Jobs truth, because it is consistent with my own experience.
.
Too many hearsay variables to have any credibility. Why don't you take a video showing us the all of the relevant content on screen and the Activity Monitor live in real time. BTW I can write and HTML5 canvas that will peg your CPU as well.
I'm glad they're bailing. There's no need for meta platforms sitting over Cocoa Touch.
Lost total respect for EFF. These guys are starting to sound idiotic like Greenpeace or the ACLU. Glad I never donated any money.
The common mantra coming from Flash developers is this.
"I want to run my app on Android, WinMob, Blackberry and any other provider that runs flash"
It means at the core, their desire is to write an app and deploy it everywhere they can for as little effort. This means that me as a consumer buys into the iPhone platform expecting to get apps specifically tailored for my chosen phone yet I'm going to be deluged by a bunch of products where overall quality may be dubious as the developer is more keen on pushing their product on a bajillion platforms rather than optimizing for the one I spent my hard earned dollars on.
The hubris of Mike Chambers and his Flash minions is startling.
It really doesn't matter. It could be H264, VP8, OGG, hell if Flash is so great it could be flash also. As long as it's in the HTML5 standard.
And no one's stopping them to have multiple video formats either. Right now Image tag already support JPEG, GIF, and PNG. No reason why the video tag should be different.
i don't think this is about video playback. that train has left the platform. 3 years of iphone, and the support for other solutions by youtube/vimeo and maybe soon hulu prove that you don't need flash for that. i don't think adobe was pushing their flash-to-iphone development platform to put more flash video online.
h264 is licensed free until 2015 (?) i think. i sure hope we're not going to drag out this discussion until then...
Google seemed to be able to pull off the Flash stock quote application. It is the best Financial quote system on the web far and away. I think the problems you mentioned sum it up.
1. Coldfusion not a main stream application environment
2. Mac not a main stream server platform
You miss the point... I was able to pull it off without Flash because ColdFusion and HTML were not the limiting factors-- Flash was!
--ColdFusion MX ran in compiled Java ByteCode and approached the performance of J2EE regardless of platform
-- The problem was not at the server end... it was at the client end where Flash was running on a Mac
because a huge chunk of their income comes from mac users. that's why.
so far very little income comes from iphone users.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ixho
Are you saying that Adobe should not optimize Flash for Mac, because it won't be getting access to the iPhone?
btw: Am I the only one who sometimes wake up in the morning and find their mac running all night unable to go into sleep mode because of some crappy flash ads?
I would love to see them optimize flash for the Mac, as it is a pain. I don't use Adobe products except for their free reader.
If you read the boards here and at macrumors, the general consensus is that mobile is the next frontier so to speak, in terms of revenue growth etc.
Apple, as is their right and I have no conceptual issue with this, has said that Flash will never run on the iPhone platform, no matter what Adobe does. So, Adobe has been locked out of a potentially large source of revenue by Apple, based on what may or may not be legitimate technical issues (I am not a programmer).
Given that situation, what incentive does Adobe have to optimize their software, particularly when they read these boards (and they most certainly do), and they read Adobe sucks, should die, etc etc.
Adobe could, along with Apple's actions, get the impression that no matter what they do with their software, Mac people are going to complain etc.
Comments
The alleged cooperation would have been years earlier when Macromedia was in charge. Silverlight is relatively new, only a couple years old. I would assume the warm relations between Adobe and MS has cooled considerably over the Silverlight launch.
no wonder Flash sucks on both Mac and windows....
It must be blazingly fast on Linux
well, it may have something to do with mike chambers being very selective about approving any opposing posts. so much for the 'open platform' he's bragging about. i find it hilarious that adobe's 'flash evangelist' and the 'project manager for flash' are out in full force over this.
Eh... I've had dealings with Mike Chambers in the past (circa 2002-5) when I was still fiddling with ColdFusion. Mike was always fair, reasonable and helpful.
At that time, I was trying to use ColdFusion & Flash to present up-to-the-minute stock quotes for a portfolio of less than 100 holdings. I was using Mac OS X, and never could get the performance that others reported for slower Windows systems. I got some help from Mike and others (AIR, none of them were working for MacroMedia/Adobe at that time). After lots of help and effort, we just gave up on Flash for the Mac (there was general agreement that it was a poor implementation). We reported our findings, but there seemed little interest by MacroMedia/Adobe to do anything.
I was able to do the presentation with ColdFusion, native HTML and JavaScript with better than twice the refresh rate of Flash).
To be honest, MacroMedia/Adobe didn't really support ColdFusion on Mac OS X for anything other than development (you had to deploy on Windows, *Nix or Solaris).
It has been my experience, since then, that Mac OS X is perceived as a second class citizen for Flash.
That said, I can understand Mike's loyalty to his product and his employer-- most of us would act the same way.
I'll say it again, though: I wish Adobe would realize the opportunity they have-- to support both (current and future) Flash as well as HTML5. Adobe could offer tools and services to allow creation of solutions for both, and migration between them. They are best qualified to do this.
If Adobe doesn't pick up on this, I suspect someone else will offer a Flash to HTML5 migration system, and carry the day!
.
If Adobe doesn't pick up on this, I suspect someone else will offer a Flash to HTML5 migration system, and carry the day!
.
If Adobe opens up the spec for Flash format I am sure someone will do it. Unfortunately it's a closed format.
... Dude, you guys are pimping something that's not even adopted or finalized! When Flash Player 10.1 hits all the android, symbian, windows, and rim devices, the cheese will stand alone.
Dude, you are pimping Flash Player 10.1, which doesn't exist!
I love this particular brand of irrationality. Cheese indeed!
If Adobe opens up the spec for Flash format I am sure someone will do it. Unfortunately it's a closed format.
Gordon.js
If Adobe opens up the spec for Flash format I am sure someone will do it. Unfortunately it's a closed format.
i think you have that wrong. from what i've read, the format is relatively open (not sure for how long it has been). it's the player that is proprietary. if adobe were to open source the player, then apple could fix it. i'm sure that would have gone a long way in bringing flash to the iphone. i'm pretty sure that apple wouldn't be quite so eager at this point.
i remember a time when you could set quicktime to play flash content. i don't remember which version it was (i think it was flash 5), but i'm curious if anybody here can explain to me why that was the case then, and what has happened to change that.
Gordon.js
that's interesting. definitely a step in the right direction.
At that time, I was trying to use ColdFusion & Flash to present up-to-the-minute stock quotes for a portfolio of less than 100 holdings. I was using Mac OS X, and never could get the performance that others reported for slower Windows systems. I got some help from Mike and others (AIR, none of them were working for MacroMedia/Adobe at that time). After lots of help and effort, we just gave up on Flash for the Mac (there was general agreement that it was a poor implementation). We reported our findings, but there seemed little interest by MacroMedia/Adobe to do anything.
Google seemed to be able to pull off the Flash stock quote application. It is the best Financial quote system on the web far and away. I think the problems you mentioned sum it up.
1. Coldfusion not a main stream application environment
2. Mac not a main stream server platform
Say what you like, I enjoy an occasional McDonalds hamburger!
Really? I throw away the burger and eat the box because it tastes much better.
So when Jobs lies about flash being a cpu hog, and everyone just agrees without question, it does have a ripple effect on the rest of the industry. People are making the comment that Adobe is ripping on Apple for something that no other phone has, but they ignore the obvious in that Steve Jobs has no problem ripping on flash under the same exact circumstances.
It's all so stupid.
I have recent (and continued) personal experience that shows that Flash is, in fact, a resource hog on a Mac.
I had run a couple of YouTube Flash videos... all had completed... only one open window had a Flash player in it... the Flash player was not running:
This was run on a 2.8GHz Intel Core 2 Duo iMac 24 with 4GB RAM
This person, agrees with this Jobs truth, because it is consistent with my own experience.
.
If Adobe doesn't pick up on this, I suspect someone else will offer a Flash to HTML5 migration system, and carry the day!
If Adobe opens up the spec for Flash format I am sure someone will do it. Unfortunately it's a closed format.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter if Flash can be converted to HTML5. The move for video is already under way, Gruber has a link today for some HTML5 games that some guy threw together, and Flash doesn't really have anything compelling to offer over the long run: being effectively locked out of the entire mobile market for the moment, and the iP* using segment of that market permanently, isn't exactly going to make it a good choice for anyone that wants to reach those consumers, and everybody does want to reach them.
The move away from Flash towards standards based content is already well under way, and there will be no turning back. Someone, if not Adobe, will create the tools for designers, and they are probably working on them as you read this. People update their websites constantly, so it's not necessary to convert the Flash content, it will simply be replaced with HTML5 content when the next update cycle comes around. In not too long a time, the only place Flash will continue to exist is in Web archives.
HTML5 is free. Flash requires a license, and therefore it's Adobe's way of having control over the web (or something.)
H.264 though is far from "free"
Ultimately, it doesn't matter if Flash can be converted to HTML5.
I am ok with it if all the heavy lifting is done on the server side, and the client's only job is handling HTML/CSS/Javascript.
Also "Gordon.js" proves one thing, HTML/CSS/Javascript is capable of replicating most of Flash's functionality.
Eh... I've had dealings with Mike Chambers in the past (circa 2002-5) when I was still fiddling with ColdFusion. Mike was always fair, reasonable and helpful.
At that time, I was trying to use ColdFusion & Flash to present up-to-the-minute stock quotes for a portfolio of less than 100 holdings. I was using Mac OS X, and never could get the performance that others reported for slower Windows systems. I got some help from Mike and others (AIR, none of them were working for MacroMedia/Adobe at that time). After lots of help and effort, we just gave up on Flash for the Mac (there was general agreement that it was a poor implementation). We reported our findings, but there seemed little interest by MacroMedia/Adobe to do anything.
I was able to do the presentation with ColdFusion, native HTML and JavaScript with better than twice the refresh rate of Flash).
To be honest, MacroMedia/Adobe didn't really support ColdFusion on Mac OS X for anything other than development (you had to deploy on Windows, *Nix or Solaris).
It has been my experience, since then, that Mac OS X is perceived as a second class citizen for Flash.
That said, I can understand Mike's loyalty to his product and his employer-- most of us would act the same way.
I'll say it again, though: I wish Adobe would realize the opportunity they have-- to support both (current and future) Flash as well as HTML5. Adobe could offer tools and services to allow creation of solutions for both, and migration between them. They are best qualified to do this.
If Adobe doesn't pick up on this, I suspect someone else will offer a Flash to HTML5 migration system, and carry the day!
.
while i understand mike's loyalty for his platform, i'm not quite so sure i understand why he would be involving himself in the public spectacle that has been unfolding. so far all we really hear is adobe's public whining, at first in response to a single 'reported' remark of steve jobs at an internal meeting at apple, now obviously because of apple's stance on 3rd party dev tools.
his blog post, while more adult than lee brimelow's rant, is full of flamebait and FUD. hardly what i would call 'fair, reasonable and helpful'. while it's probably useful for riling up the faithful flash devs, it hardly makes adobe look like a company run by reasonable adults.
passion for your product is one thing. washing your dirty laundry in public is another. apple has been characteristically quiet as usual.
i agree 100% with your assessment that adobe has an opportunity to be the company to push development tools forward. i don't think a public pissing contest is the way to set the tone though. i know they're not getting any sympathy from me, and i've been using their products since Illustrator 88.
I have recent (and continued) personal experience that shows that Flash is, in fact, a resource hog on a Mac.
I had run a couple of YouTube Flash videos... all had completed... only one open window had a Flash player in it... the Flash player was not running:
This was run on a 2.8GHz Intel Core 2 Duo iMac 24 with 4GB RAM
This person, agrees with this Jobs truth, because it is consistent with my own experience.
.
Too many hearsay variables to have any credibility. Why don't you take a video showing us the all of the relevant content on screen and the Activity Monitor live in real time. BTW I can write and HTML5 canvas that will peg your CPU as well.
I'm glad they're bailing. There's no need for meta platforms sitting over Cocoa Touch.
Lost total respect for EFF. These guys are starting to sound idiotic like Greenpeace or the ACLU. Glad I never donated any money.
The common mantra coming from Flash developers is this.
"I want to run my app on Android, WinMob, Blackberry and any other provider that runs flash"
It means at the core, their desire is to write an app and deploy it everywhere they can for as little effort. This means that me as a consumer buys into the iPhone platform expecting to get apps specifically tailored for my chosen phone yet I'm going to be deluged by a bunch of products where overall quality may be dubious as the developer is more keen on pushing their product on a bajillion platforms rather than optimizing for the one I spent my hard earned dollars on.
The hubris of Mike Chambers and his Flash minions is startling.
H.264 though is far from "free"
It really doesn't matter. It could be H264, VP8, OGG, hell if Flash is so great it could be flash also. As long as it's in the HTML5 standard.
And no one's stopping them to have multiple video formats either. Right now Image tag already support JPEG, GIF, and PNG. No reason why the video tag should be different.
H.264 though is far from "free"
i don't think this is about video playback. that train has left the platform. 3 years of iphone, and the support for other solutions by youtube/vimeo and maybe soon hulu prove that you don't need flash for that. i don't think adobe was pushing their flash-to-iphone development platform to put more flash video online.
h264 is licensed free until 2015 (?) i think. i sure hope we're not going to drag out this discussion until then...
Google seemed to be able to pull off the Flash stock quote application. It is the best Financial quote system on the web far and away. I think the problems you mentioned sum it up.
1. Coldfusion not a main stream application environment
2. Mac not a main stream server platform
You miss the point... I was able to pull it off without Flash because ColdFusion and HTML were not the limiting factors-- Flash was!
--ColdFusion MX ran in compiled Java ByteCode and approached the performance of J2EE regardless of platform
-- The problem was not at the server end... it was at the client end where Flash was running on a Mac
.
because a huge chunk of their income comes from mac users. that's why.
so far very little income comes from iphone users.
Are you saying that Adobe should not optimize Flash for Mac, because it won't be getting access to the iPhone?
btw: Am I the only one who sometimes wake up in the morning and find their mac running all night unable to go into sleep mode because of some crappy flash ads?
I would love to see them optimize flash for the Mac, as it is a pain. I don't use Adobe products except for their free reader.
If you read the boards here and at macrumors, the general consensus is that mobile is the next frontier so to speak, in terms of revenue growth etc.
Apple, as is their right and I have no conceptual issue with this, has said that Flash will never run on the iPhone platform, no matter what Adobe does. So, Adobe has been locked out of a potentially large source of revenue by Apple, based on what may or may not be legitimate technical issues (I am not a programmer).
Given that situation, what incentive does Adobe have to optimize their software, particularly when they read these boards (and they most certainly do), and they read Adobe sucks, should die, etc etc.
Adobe could, along with Apple's actions, get the impression that no matter what they do with their software, Mac people are going to complain etc.