Wow. I am not sure what side you are on. But the way you sound,
I would argue with you vehemently that no one at Apple was aware of any antenna issues other than what was known about the state of the art at that time. Or that the bumpers were designed to address that issue.
Perhaps one should become a little more familiar with the FCC filing regulations. Such knowledge at the time of submission would require that Apple falsify the findings submitted by Federal Government approved laboratories; which would be a criminal offense.
It is unbelievable some of the comments inferring that Apple knew about the issue before they were brought to market, are purposely attempting to hide to problem or placing the blame on the consumer. There are laws against that to, especially as governed by a Federal agency.
If Apple can't resolve the problem by a software fix, mechanically modifying or replacing the antenna, they will recall and replace the product, or refund it accordingly.
Thank heavens that has been their policy for years, and one that has relegated Apple to such high levels of consumer confidence for their products, as well as their service and support.
Their is no evidence to suggest otherwise.
I am really not on a "side".
I was [unsuccessfully] trying to illustrate that how ridiculous the OP was: suggesting that Apple fired the engineers (on the spot) when the problem became public, and immediately served up some job openings.
Quote:
If apple is savvy they:
1) would have fired the non-performing engineers months ago when they first detected the problem (when they decided to sell a bumper case)
I am aware of the FCC regulations, lead-times, and ramifications of falsifying or withholding evidence-- it can cost executives their jobs.
I was trying to refute the OPs assertions with a few logical reasons and think that the issues you bring up, while correct, would have complicated the discussion (IMO).
I have personally owned at least one of every Apple product since 1978, except Lisa and Newton.
I have done business with Apple as:
-- A Customer;
-- A Dealer (we owned some computer stores);
-- A Supplier- we sold/installed a lot of products to Apple at all levels CEO on down, and varying levels of complexity (LANS ca 1980);
-- A Developer on a joint project: POST (Point Of Sale Terminal) software using Mac.
Apple has always treated my/us fairly and honorably, and I suspect they always will.
Apple makes excellent products and they support what they make... as well as anyone in the industry (whom I've dealt with).
I admire what Apple does and how they do it-- the are an inspiration to much of what I hold dear.
I think enough of AAPL that they are a significant part of my portfolio.
So, yeah, I am an Apple Fan... but I'm on my side-- for selfish reasons.
I ask again, show me the evidence were it implicitly show that Apple claimed "there is no issue." Or that no warranty work will be done.
If it is an antenna issue, Apple will be required to go back to the Government FCC approved laboratories and retest the iPHone before submission or face a government forced recall. And until Apple is able to hone in on the problem specifically, there can't resolve it.
Is it a design, materials, manufacturing, packaging, firmware or software problem? Is it the antenna itself? Is it the proximity sensor? Or is it something that is attached to it? Who knows? Certainly nobody here or anybody else at this point.
And anybody that thinks that Apple doesn't care is an idiot.
They do not care. Steve Jobs is a douche. *CONFIRMED*
Their secrecy has finally screwed them. I hope they stop being so friggin' secret but I somehow doubt it.
Jobs has claimed there is no issue. In writing. Didn't you hear about his e-mail? It was on CNN.
Also, people here DO know what is wrong. A lot of electrical engineers are also Mac users and have posted insights. On a positive note, All of us that are following this issue are getting RF 101. There is a reason no one else has an antenna designed like iPhone 4. Because exposing it and allowing people to touch it is stupid.
iPhone 4 seems like a complete clusterf*ck. I was absolutely ready to buy. Now I might just wait another 6 months for a VZW iPhone or get an Android. Proximity sensor issues, spots, ugh. Has almost as many issues as my new MBP i5. WTF with Apple QA/QC, we pay enough for good QA with Apple products. \
I'm with you on this. I'd be surprised if the antenna designers had not pointed out the fact that there will be attenuation when the antenna is held, and I suspect Apple decided that the benefits of the case being the antenna (and the data that this article is based on shows there is a benefit to the iPhone 4 design, except when held in a certain way) outweighed the negatives of people holding it in a certain way having problems.
I think the antenna got pushed outside. They wanted it thinner, with a larger battery, so the antenna no longer fit inside. The whole design is a series of compromises. They weighed the pluses and minuses and arrived at their conclusion. In many situations the reception is better than it was before, and others, possibly worse.
Steve Jobs is on the way to ruining Apple's reputation for quality. Between iPhone 4 and other recent hardware issues (eg new MBPs). But with mistakes like these it's more how you handle the issue than the issue itself. His e-mails were a really, really huge mistake. Blame the customer. Oops.
This may approach the scale of Toyota. Will Apple go out of business? No. But their reputation will take a hit, if only for a while. Apple and Steve Jobs either have to do a 180 on this and give out free bumpers or a credit to a case, and also get on the ball with a permanent fix, or AAPL's reputation will take the hit. I'm disappointed and surprised so far at how this is being handled.
WHile I agree with the sentiment that an anecdote doesn't mean anything, isn't it usually Republicans that are always in denial? Drilling is safe,
Nothing in this world is completely safe, it is unreasonable to expect drilling for oil to be any different. Even using a cell phone isn't 100% safe and in fact can be very deadly in combo with other devices. Without risk though there is not life, Republicans simply like to live their lives.
Quote:
salt in food is fine,
Actually salt in food is required. A friend of mine shares similar health problems which resulted in his cutting out the use of salt totally. He eventually ended up at the doctor with issues. The doc said to consume more salt which solved the problem immediately.
I'm not saying one should consume massive quanities of salt. Rather sometimes the tank needs to be topped off. It isn't in the publics interest to eliminate choice here, people can think for themselves.
Quote:
excluding millions from healthcare won't have any impact on society... etc...
The fact is the welfare state has had a significantly negative impact on society and is directly responsible for the decay seen in many cities. It fuels the drug problem, is directly responsible for the dramatic rise in single mothers and a host of other issues. We would be far better off to simply stop supporting the welfare state, let the chronic abusers die off when possible and sterilize the welfare mothers. At least if you are really concerned about society you would take a different approach.
Now what does this have to do with iPhone? Not much other than I see the same whinny cry from the entitlement crowd that expects ever little problem to be resolved for them. Jobs might be a democrate or something else, but one thing for sure if he isn't this thread has to have him thinking about becoming a republican.
Until Apple can unequivocally determine the cause, if one, I would doubt that Apple would unilaterally offer fixes that may be construed by the FCC as a placative or cosmetic solution.
Hmmm, So I guess all the new reports from customers that state Apple now refuses to replace their phone because Apple says it's a normal issue, is rumor and false too ? Could be false. Believe what you want to believe.
Apple is not denying the issue, they just don't define the issue the same way you do. They see it differently. I know that's upsetting. With so many phones out there the truth will out. Getting overly worked up in the meantime won't help.
So Apple is going to hire more people when they already hired people who worked on the new antenna system?
Exactly how many people should work on an antenna? I'm sure it's a coincidencethat it's a tipoff especially when the dates coincide with the public acknowledgment of the antenna problems.
Knowing Jobs I'm sure he's the type to keep people around after they failed at their responsibilities.
Emphasis mine! Do you know Steve Jobs? Have you ever met Steve Jobs? Do you know what type Steve Jobs is? Do you know how Steve Jobs treats employees that fail at their responsibilities?
I have met Steve Jobs on several occasions. I do not know Steve Jobs. I have heard a lot of stories about Steve Jobs that may, or may not, be true,
Here's one opinion I have of Steve Jobs: IMO, Steve Jobs has done 3 great things at Apple:
1) Starting Apple with WOZ and Mike Markkula
2) Leaving Apple
3) Returning to Apple
Here's another opinion: Steve Jobs has set the standard for attracting and retaining top quality people and exploiting their creativity to the benefit of all!
Out of curiosity what's the number of posts required before somebody has standing credibility at AI?
Anywhere between 1 and 10 000. It depends entirely on the tone and the content of the posts. If you post illiterate, ignorant, shit stirring crap and still make it to 10 000 you get credibility for endurance, tenaciousness and a little for just managing to stay stupid for so long. But post intelligent commentary you get credibility right off the bat.
I've had an iPhone 4 for nearly a week. Yes, touching the magic spot causes the bars to decrease, steadily. I never had the patience to take that all the way to No Service. That was fun, but then I put the phone into the Pixelskin case I'd used with the 3G. Don't want my $300 phone turning into a $700 phone when it falls out of my pocket.
While waiting in The Line, I noticed that all the iPhones around me were in cases.
Does no one remember the reception issues with the 3G? I do. I remember holding my phone beside the iPhone of a friend, who had full bars of 3G while I had no service. That convinced me it was a hardware defect. Shows what I know. A later update completely cured my phone. Maybe that's what will happen here. For me, it doesn't matter, as my phone (in a case) works absolutely great.
...and here's the expert testimony needed for that lawsuit.
I'd suggest that Apple start "appeasing" those that complain with free bumpers now and foregoing the revenue before that lawsuit takes off and they are forced to give up free bumpers and compensate those that had to pay contract termination fees and now want out of their current AT&T/iPhone contract.
That would be exactly the wrong thing to do, unless they knowingly and deliberately broke the law.
If they did nothing wrong, appeasement is counter-productive.
If you have ever run a business, you should understand this!
I'm talking about Corporate policy here, not the discretionary decision by a Apple Store manager to give a free bumper to an individual customer for whatever reason he see as valid.
Unfortunately, lawsuits are a cost of doing business! Just as Apple has Engineers to design antennas, they have Lawyers to protect their interests... Let the lawyers earn their pay!
Comments
Yes but the test pretty much prove Apples point . . .
Perfectly valid points. My heart is with you, but my head gets in the way a bit.
Wow. I am not sure what side you are on. But the way you sound,
I would argue with you vehemently that no one at Apple was aware of any antenna issues other than what was known about the state of the art at that time. Or that the bumpers were designed to address that issue.
Perhaps one should become a little more familiar with the FCC filing regulations. Such knowledge at the time of submission would require that Apple falsify the findings submitted by Federal Government approved laboratories; which would be a criminal offense.
It is unbelievable some of the comments inferring that Apple knew about the issue before they were brought to market, are purposely attempting to hide to problem or placing the blame on the consumer. There are laws against that to, especially as governed by a Federal agency.
If Apple can't resolve the problem by a software fix, mechanically modifying or replacing the antenna, they will recall and replace the product, or refund it accordingly.
Thank heavens that has been their policy for years, and one that has relegated Apple to such high levels of consumer confidence for their products, as well as their service and support.
Their is no evidence to suggest otherwise.
I am really not on a "side".
I was [unsuccessfully] trying to illustrate that how ridiculous the OP was: suggesting that Apple fired the engineers (on the spot) when the problem became public, and immediately served up some job openings.
If apple is savvy they:
1) would have fired the non-performing engineers months ago when they first detected the problem (when they decided to sell a bumper case)
I am aware of the FCC regulations, lead-times, and ramifications of falsifying or withholding evidence-- it can cost executives their jobs.
I was trying to refute the OPs assertions with a few logical reasons and think that the issues you bring up, while correct, would have complicated the discussion (IMO).
I have personally owned at least one of every Apple product since 1978, except Lisa and Newton.
I have done business with Apple as:
-- A Customer;
-- A Dealer (we owned some computer stores);
-- A Supplier- we sold/installed a lot of products to Apple at all levels CEO on down, and varying levels of complexity (LANS ca 1980);
-- A Developer on a joint project: POST (Point Of Sale Terminal) software using Mac.
Apple has always treated my/us fairly and honorably, and I suspect they always will.
Apple makes excellent products and they support what they make... as well as anyone in the industry (whom I've dealt with).
I admire what Apple does and how they do it-- the are an inspiration to much of what I hold dear.
I think enough of AAPL that they are a significant part of my portfolio.
So, yeah, I am an Apple Fan... but I'm on my side-- for selfish reasons.
.
I ask again, show me the evidence were it implicitly show that Apple claimed "there is no issue." Or that no warranty work will be done.
If it is an antenna issue, Apple will be required to go back to the Government FCC approved laboratories and retest the iPHone before submission or face a government forced recall. And until Apple is able to hone in on the problem specifically, there can't resolve it.
Is it a design, materials, manufacturing, packaging, firmware or software problem? Is it the antenna itself? Is it the proximity sensor? Or is it something that is attached to it? Who knows? Certainly nobody here or anybody else at this point.
And anybody that thinks that Apple doesn't care is an idiot.
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=110976
They do not care. Steve Jobs is a douche. *CONFIRMED*
Their secrecy has finally screwed them. I hope they stop being so friggin' secret but I somehow doubt it.
Jobs has claimed there is no issue. In writing. Didn't you hear about his e-mail? It was on CNN.
Also, people here DO know what is wrong. A lot of electrical engineers are also Mac users and have posted insights. On a positive note, All of us that are following this issue are getting RF 101. There is a reason no one else has an antenna designed like iPhone 4. Because exposing it and allowing people to touch it is stupid.
iPhone 4 seems like a complete clusterf*ck. I was absolutely ready to buy. Now I might just wait another 6 months for a VZW iPhone or get an Android. Proximity sensor issues, spots, ugh. Has almost as many issues as my new MBP i5. WTF with Apple QA/QC, we pay enough for good QA with Apple products.
What is even more interesting is your history on AI:
Join Date
06-30-2010
Total Posts
2
.
Out of curiosity what's the number of posts required before somebody has standing credibility at AI?
I'm with you on this. I'd be surprised if the antenna designers had not pointed out the fact that there will be attenuation when the antenna is held, and I suspect Apple decided that the benefits of the case being the antenna (and the data that this article is based on shows there is a benefit to the iPhone 4 design, except when held in a certain way) outweighed the negatives of people holding it in a certain way having problems.
I think the antenna got pushed outside. They wanted it thinner, with a larger battery, so the antenna no longer fit inside. The whole design is a series of compromises. They weighed the pluses and minuses and arrived at their conclusion. In many situations the reception is better than it was before, and others, possibly worse.
they could even strengthen their reputation.
Steve Jobs is on the way to ruining Apple's reputation for quality. Between iPhone 4 and other recent hardware issues (eg new MBPs). But with mistakes like these it's more how you handle the issue than the issue itself. His e-mails were a really, really huge mistake. Blame the customer. Oops.
This may approach the scale of Toyota. Will Apple go out of business? No. But their reputation will take a hit, if only for a while. Apple and Steve Jobs either have to do a 180 on this and give out free bumpers or a credit to a case, and also get on the ball with a permanent fix, or AAPL's reputation will take the hit. I'm disappointed and surprised so far at how this is being handled.
... Believe what you want to believe.
That does seem to be your credo.
Sorry, but hysterical whining is not going to resolve anything. So just settle down and come back to earth.
WHile I agree with the sentiment that an anecdote doesn't mean anything, isn't it usually Republicans that are always in denial? Drilling is safe,
Nothing in this world is completely safe, it is unreasonable to expect drilling for oil to be any different. Even using a cell phone isn't 100% safe and in fact can be very deadly in combo with other devices. Without risk though there is not life, Republicans simply like to live their lives.
salt in food is fine,
Actually salt in food is required. A friend of mine shares similar health problems which resulted in his cutting out the use of salt totally. He eventually ended up at the doctor with issues. The doc said to consume more salt which solved the problem immediately.
I'm not saying one should consume massive quanities of salt. Rather sometimes the tank needs to be topped off. It isn't in the publics interest to eliminate choice here, people can think for themselves.
excluding millions from healthcare won't have any impact on society... etc...
The fact is the welfare state has had a significantly negative impact on society and is directly responsible for the decay seen in many cities. It fuels the drug problem, is directly responsible for the dramatic rise in single mothers and a host of other issues. We would be far better off to simply stop supporting the welfare state, let the chronic abusers die off when possible and sterilize the welfare mothers. At least if you are really concerned about society you would take a different approach.
Now what does this have to do with iPhone? Not much other than I see the same whinny cry from the entitlement crowd that expects ever little problem to be resolved for them. Jobs might be a democrate or something else, but one thing for sure if he isn't this thread has to have him thinking about becoming a republican.
Dave
That does seem to be your credo.
Sorry, but hysterical whining is not going to resolve anything. So just settle down and come back to earth.
Oh, so no valid logical response ? Except to try to put me down ? Hmm
What does this imply ?
http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2010/...ng-procedures/
Nothing.
Until Apple can unequivocally determine the cause, if one, I would doubt that Apple would unilaterally offer fixes that may be construed by the FCC as a placative or cosmetic solution.
There are laws. It is as simple as that.
Hmmm, So I guess all the new reports from customers that state Apple now refuses to replace their phone because Apple says it's a normal issue, is rumor and false too ? Could be false. Believe what you want to believe.
Apple is not denying the issue, they just don't define the issue the same way you do. They see it differently. I know that's upsetting. With so many phones out there the truth will out. Getting overly worked up in the meantime won't help.
Oh, so no valid logical response ? Except to try to put me down ? Hmm
Yes, there is no logical response to hysterical ranting.
Yes, there is no logical response to hysterical ranting.
So I guess there is also no logical response for someone as blind as you.
So I guess there is also no logical response to someone so blind as you.
Oh stop it you two. It's getting childish.
So Apple is going to hire more people when they already hired people who worked on the new antenna system?
Exactly how many people should work on an antenna? I'm sure it's a coincidencethat it's a tipoff especially when the dates coincide with the public acknowledgment of the antenna problems.
Knowing Jobs I'm sure he's the type to keep people around after they failed at their responsibilities.
Emphasis mine! Do you know Steve Jobs? Have you ever met Steve Jobs? Do you know what type Steve Jobs is? Do you know how Steve Jobs treats employees that fail at their responsibilities?
I have met Steve Jobs on several occasions. I do not know Steve Jobs. I have heard a lot of stories about Steve Jobs that may, or may not, be true,
Here's one opinion I have of Steve Jobs: IMO, Steve Jobs has done 3 great things at Apple:
1) Starting Apple with WOZ and Mike Markkula
2) Leaving Apple
3) Returning to Apple
Here's another opinion: Steve Jobs has set the standard for attracting and retaining top quality people and exploiting their creativity to the benefit of all!
.
Out of curiosity what's the number of posts required before somebody has standing credibility at AI?
Anywhere between 1 and 10 000. It depends entirely on the tone and the content of the posts. If you post illiterate, ignorant, shit stirring crap and still make it to 10 000 you get credibility for endurance, tenaciousness and a little for just managing to stay stupid for so long. But post intelligent commentary you get credibility right off the bat.
Which I'm sorry to say is rather poor science.
In an area of low reception a 17.7dB drop, as was shown in the Nexus, could quite easily drop a network connection.
Ouch. I did what I could with the tools that I had, and (in my defence) I was upfront that my testing was limited and what those limits were.
While waiting in The Line, I noticed that all the iPhones around me were in cases.
Does no one remember the reception issues with the 3G? I do. I remember holding my phone beside the iPhone of a friend, who had full bars of 3G while I had no service. That convinced me it was a hardware defect. Shows what I know. A later update completely cured my phone. Maybe that's what will happen here. For me, it doesn't matter, as my phone (in a case) works absolutely great.
Well that's it folks. Plagen says there isn't a problem! Time to pack it up and move on!
thatz not what he said at all, don't strawman him...
...and here's the expert testimony needed for that lawsuit.
I'd suggest that Apple start "appeasing" those that complain with free bumpers now and foregoing the revenue before that lawsuit takes off and they are forced to give up free bumpers and compensate those that had to pay contract termination fees and now want out of their current AT&T/iPhone contract.
That would be exactly the wrong thing to do, unless they knowingly and deliberately broke the law.
If they did nothing wrong, appeasement is counter-productive.
If you have ever run a business, you should understand this!
I'm talking about Corporate policy here, not the discretionary decision by a Apple Store manager to give a free bumper to an individual customer for whatever reason he see as valid.
Unfortunately, lawsuits are a cost of doing business! Just as Apple has Engineers to design antennas, they have Lawyers to protect their interests... Let the lawyers earn their pay!
,