Anti-Semitism / Anti-Israel shift
The following is a quote from Israel's most respected newspaper 'Haaretz' it was written by one of Israel's moderate politicians ( from the left wing party Meretz ) , this guy was one of the first to condemn Israeli occupation of the OT and has served in many high ranking positions in successive Israeli governments including minister of Justice and minister of Education.
I wanted to get the ball rolling on this one since there has been soo much discussion re Israel/Palestine on this forum and I think that in order to understand this issue its important to see where our information and oppinions come from especially here in Europe
So go on, tear into it
.....
_________________________________________________
An anti-Semitic Europe? No, but...
By Amnon Rubinstein
European parliamentarians touring the Jenin refugee camp last week. The European press has covered the "Jenin massacre" with obsessive hysteria.
(Photo: AP)
The extreme decisions by the Council of European Nations illustrate an anti-Israeli hysteria that is now washing over Western Europe. Israel is now in the same league as South Africa during the apartheid era. European Union ambassadors boycotted the annual embassy reception for Israeli Independence Day in London - rude behavior, considering that Independence Day is not the celebration of a particular government, but of the Jewish state that was established in the wake of the destruction of European Jewry.
Not all criticism of Israel is wrong, and not every anti-Israeli decision is tainted with anti-Semitism. A visit to Gaza can turn any friend into someone who is hostile toward Israel. The prime minister's declarations about the settlements are outrageous; establishing settlements in Samaria appears - rightfully so - to be intolerable provocation; and the siege on Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat looks like deliberate humiliation of an elected leader, though the European council should be reminded that Slobodan Milosevic was an elected leader when Europe, through NATO, decided to brutally attack Serbia, demanding his extradition.
Above all, there's a fundamental misunderstanding at large. Europe regards the intifada as a local conflict - powerful Israelis attacking weak Palestinians under military occupation. Most Israelis, on the other hand, regard themselves as being under siege in a sea of hostile Arab Muslims, with the Palestinians the tip of the spear aimed against them. This is an important difference that explains the hostility toward Israel more than any argument about anti-Semitism.
Nonetheless, how does one explain the hatred voiced against the Jewish state even in moderate newspapers? And how can one explain the huge difference between support for Israel in the United States and the European support for the Palestinians?
Three British weeklies dealt with precisely this issue last week. The conservative Spectator published an article by Melanie Philips in which she asks and answers "Why the Jews are always to blame," and in which she vigorously defends Israel. The Economist fairly explained the disparity between the United States and Europe as being linked to their different attitudes toward terror attacks against civilians. In contrast, the leftist New Statesman continued is attacks on the Jewish lobby in the United States, stating that it is responsible for Washington's support for Israel.
The New Statesman article strengthens the argument Philips made about latent anti-Semitism because the piece in the leftist weekly attributes everything to Jewish money - "60 percent of the contributions to the Democrats come from the Jews" - and does not consider the possibility that there is some justification for supporting a democratic state that is under attack from murderous, suicidal attackers.
Hostility toward Israel cannot be explained on a backdrop of anti-Semitism. The fact is that not too long ago, in the days of Oslo, Israel was the love of Europe, and former prime minister Yitzhak Rabin was its hero. But when Israel is under attack, the 2,000 year-old monster also rears its head.
When should a wave of anti-Semitism be feared? Not only when Jews are attacked, but when there is a special need to come to their defense. The London-based Sun recently ran an article headlined "The Jewish faith is not an evil religion." Evil? Following the attacks on Jews and the burning of synagogues? Why the sudden need for defense of this kind?
The Council of European Nations and European states are not anti-Semitic, but the hysteria against Israel and Jew-hatred are both obsessive. Readers of important European newspapers would not know there was violence in the world outside of the "Jenin massacre." Mark Stein, writing in the Daily Telegraph, says that of 30 conflicts underway around the world right now, 28 involve Muslims.
For hundreds of years, many Christians believed the blood libels. There are no more blood libels anymore, but Israel is not presented as a normal state, rather as something monstrous. Europe is not anti-Semitic, but a deeply-rooted tradition over generations has stamped itself on attitudes toward the Jewish state.
In the days of the French revolution, the Count of Clermont-Tonnerre said, "The Jews should be denied everything as a nation, but granted everything as individuals." That saying is not dead either, and is translated nowadays as: For the Jews as individuals, everything; for the Jewish as a minority community, almost everything; for the Jewish state, almost nothing.
__________________________________________________ _______
The Article can also be read <a href="http://news.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=157040&contrassID=2&subContrass ID=4&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y" target="_blank">Here !</a>
[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
I wanted to get the ball rolling on this one since there has been soo much discussion re Israel/Palestine on this forum and I think that in order to understand this issue its important to see where our information and oppinions come from especially here in Europe
So go on, tear into it
....._________________________________________________
An anti-Semitic Europe? No, but...
By Amnon Rubinstein
European parliamentarians touring the Jenin refugee camp last week. The European press has covered the "Jenin massacre" with obsessive hysteria.
(Photo: AP)
The extreme decisions by the Council of European Nations illustrate an anti-Israeli hysteria that is now washing over Western Europe. Israel is now in the same league as South Africa during the apartheid era. European Union ambassadors boycotted the annual embassy reception for Israeli Independence Day in London - rude behavior, considering that Independence Day is not the celebration of a particular government, but of the Jewish state that was established in the wake of the destruction of European Jewry.
Not all criticism of Israel is wrong, and not every anti-Israeli decision is tainted with anti-Semitism. A visit to Gaza can turn any friend into someone who is hostile toward Israel. The prime minister's declarations about the settlements are outrageous; establishing settlements in Samaria appears - rightfully so - to be intolerable provocation; and the siege on Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat looks like deliberate humiliation of an elected leader, though the European council should be reminded that Slobodan Milosevic was an elected leader when Europe, through NATO, decided to brutally attack Serbia, demanding his extradition.
Above all, there's a fundamental misunderstanding at large. Europe regards the intifada as a local conflict - powerful Israelis attacking weak Palestinians under military occupation. Most Israelis, on the other hand, regard themselves as being under siege in a sea of hostile Arab Muslims, with the Palestinians the tip of the spear aimed against them. This is an important difference that explains the hostility toward Israel more than any argument about anti-Semitism.
Nonetheless, how does one explain the hatred voiced against the Jewish state even in moderate newspapers? And how can one explain the huge difference between support for Israel in the United States and the European support for the Palestinians?
Three British weeklies dealt with precisely this issue last week. The conservative Spectator published an article by Melanie Philips in which she asks and answers "Why the Jews are always to blame," and in which she vigorously defends Israel. The Economist fairly explained the disparity between the United States and Europe as being linked to their different attitudes toward terror attacks against civilians. In contrast, the leftist New Statesman continued is attacks on the Jewish lobby in the United States, stating that it is responsible for Washington's support for Israel.
The New Statesman article strengthens the argument Philips made about latent anti-Semitism because the piece in the leftist weekly attributes everything to Jewish money - "60 percent of the contributions to the Democrats come from the Jews" - and does not consider the possibility that there is some justification for supporting a democratic state that is under attack from murderous, suicidal attackers.
Hostility toward Israel cannot be explained on a backdrop of anti-Semitism. The fact is that not too long ago, in the days of Oslo, Israel was the love of Europe, and former prime minister Yitzhak Rabin was its hero. But when Israel is under attack, the 2,000 year-old monster also rears its head.
When should a wave of anti-Semitism be feared? Not only when Jews are attacked, but when there is a special need to come to their defense. The London-based Sun recently ran an article headlined "The Jewish faith is not an evil religion." Evil? Following the attacks on Jews and the burning of synagogues? Why the sudden need for defense of this kind?
The Council of European Nations and European states are not anti-Semitic, but the hysteria against Israel and Jew-hatred are both obsessive. Readers of important European newspapers would not know there was violence in the world outside of the "Jenin massacre." Mark Stein, writing in the Daily Telegraph, says that of 30 conflicts underway around the world right now, 28 involve Muslims.
For hundreds of years, many Christians believed the blood libels. There are no more blood libels anymore, but Israel is not presented as a normal state, rather as something monstrous. Europe is not anti-Semitic, but a deeply-rooted tradition over generations has stamped itself on attitudes toward the Jewish state.
In the days of the French revolution, the Count of Clermont-Tonnerre said, "The Jews should be denied everything as a nation, but granted everything as individuals." That saying is not dead either, and is translated nowadays as: For the Jews as individuals, everything; for the Jewish as a minority community, almost everything; for the Jewish state, almost nothing.
__________________________________________________ _______
The Article can also be read <a href="http://news.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=157040&contrassID=2&subContrass ID=4&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y" target="_blank">Here !</a>
[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
Comments
Even though he tries to say moderate he still has to spout that victim garbage. "But when Israel is under attack, the 2,000 year-old monster also rears its head."
I'm not worried about Israel's safety against the Arab nations around it. If they tried to come after Israel again millions of Arabs would be turned into glowsticks before they even got there. Israel has beaten the crap out of them before and there's no reason to think it wouldn't happen again.
I also don't think the description of Palestine as the "tip" of an Arab "spear" is accurate at all. Palestinians get screwed over by both sides because neither side likes them because of the way they act.
<strong>Criticism of Israel != anti-semitism.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
That is exactly what this article didn't say you twat .. read it !
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
Even though he tries to say moderate he still has to spout that victim garbage. "But when Israel is under attack, the 2,000 year-old monster also rears its head."
</strong><hr></blockquote>
So you dismiss the fact that there have been many Anti Semitic attacks in Europe against synagogues and other Jewish targets recently ?
Isn't Israel under attack ? 450 dead Israelis isn't enough for you ? why is it that you choose to be so one sided ?
You can't even begin to realize what its like to loos 6 million of your nation .. it happened only 50 years ago, with a little less luck me and most of the people I know would not be alive were it not for amazing luck or extreme bravery.... you just don't realise what the Holocaust and 3 attempts since then to exterminate us did to the Israeli psyche ... your totally wrong thinking Israel is so very strong.. or worse you simply don't care...
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
I'm not worried about Israel's safety against the Arab nations around it. If they tried to come after Israel again millions of Arabs would be turned into glowsticks before they even got there. Israel has beaten the crap out of them before and there's no reason to think it wouldn't happen again. I also don't think the description of Palestine as the "tip" of an Arab "spear" is accurate at all.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
OH man you are clue-less they have huge armies these days they have Chemical and Bio weapons Egypt has a huge US equipped army... even if they wont be able to destroy us they can cause us terrible casualties and besides the point is ( re spearhead) that that's how Israelis feel and its Israelis you must convince in this case...
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
Palestinians get screwed over by both sides because neither side likes them because of the way they act.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Arab states are still very happy to use their cause for their own interests even if they don't give a shit about their actual problems a prime example of this is Sadam's, Iran's and OBL's use of the Palestinian cause for their own means !
And at the end of all this you haven't addressed the main point of this article which is the unfair hearing Israel gets in the European press and political arena ... as usual its groverat highjacking the agenda to slate Israel and Israelis again .......
<strong>
Arab states are still very happy to use their cause for their own interests even if they don't give a shit about their actual problems a prime example of this is Sadam's, Iran's and OBL's use of the Palestinian cause for their own means !
And at the end of all this you haven't addressed the main point of this article which is the unfair hearing Israel gets in the European press and political arena ... as usual its groverat highjacking the agenda to slate Israel and Israelis again .......</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm remembering the last days of Apartheid South Africa; racist white South Africa really, really hated it when Europeans began the boycotts, when the press coverage there got to be overtly hostile and the governments la bas began to get critical. You might remember. How they hated it.
"They don't understand the nature of our problem!" said white South Africa. And "We're swamped, surrounded, and they hate us! They need no excuse to kill us!" And "It's up to us to deal with this problem the best way we know!"
And the government there got more and more violent, and the criticism grew... and well, you know the rest.
Well, I'm sorry if all the newspapers are ganging up on poor ikkle Israel, but really this must stop. Really. This has no more to do with anti-semitism than the popular criticism of Apartheid South Africa had to with anti er... big, fat people of Dutch descent. It might sting, but right now those people defending Israel are in the same position as, say, Mr Hendrik van de Merwe of Johannesburg was 15 years ago.
Ya in the wrong. Ya racist. Ya don't have the imagination to see a way out of it. And history ain't gonna be nice.
Sorry about that.
edited cos I was rude
[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
<strong>Criticism of Israel != anti-semitism.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Did you even read the article? Here let me post a paragraph from it that states just that...
Not all criticism of Israel is wrong, and not every anti-Israeli decision is tainted with anti-Semitism. A visit to Gaza can turn any friend into someone who is hostile toward Israel. The prime minister's declarations about the settlements are outrageous; establishing settlements in Samaria appears - rightfully so - to be intolerable provocation; and the siege on Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat looks like deliberate humiliation of an elected leader, though the European council should be reminded that Slobodan Milosevic was an elected leader when Europe, through NATO, decided to brutally attack Serbia, demanding his extradition.
Is reading for comprehension around here at an all time low or what?
<strong>
I'm remembering the last days of Apartheid South Africa; racist white South Africa really, really hated it when Europeans began the boycotts, when the press coverage there got to be overtly hostile and the governments la bas began to get critical. You might remember. How they hated it.
"They don't understand the nature of our problem!" said white South Africa. And "We're swamped, surrounded, and they hate us! They need no excuse to kill us!" And "It's up to us to deal with this problem the best way we know!"
And the government there got more and more violent, and the criticism grew... and well, you know the rest.
Well, I'm sorry if all the newspapers are ganging up on poor ikkle Israel, but really this must stop. Really. This has no more to do with anti-semitism than the popular criticism of Apartheid South Africa had to with anti er... big, fat people of Dutch descent. It might sting, but right now those people defending Israel are in the same position as, say, Mr Hendrik van de Merwe of Johannesburg was 15 years ago.
Ya in the wrong. Ya racist. Ya don't have the imagination to see a way out of it. And history will remember you as a pitiless fascist.
Sorry about that.</strong><hr></blockquote>
OK, at least you're sorry about calling me a racist .. how nice and civilized ...but you still think I am <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
1. There is no comparison between Israel and South Africa what-so-ever ! if you claim there is prove it !
2. Don't know about you but as I have said in this forum many times I believe in the right of Palestinian self determination and in an Independent Palestinian state how does that make me a racist ? is it because I refuse to be blown up by suicide bombers and instead chose to get them before they get me ?
3. Believe me , once the Palestinians stop their attacks Israel will withdraw and negotiation will resume and there WILL be a Palestinian state but not under the threat of terror.
4. Its clear you use the South Africa comparison to paint Israel in a bad light .... why don't you come up with some useful arguments instead of this - 'you're all racist and evil and wrong'' rhetoric .....
<strong>
1. There is no comparison between Israel and South Africa what-so-ever ! if you claim there is prove it !
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I have argued that there is some similarities between SA and Israel especially when looking at the economy. I really don´t want to repeat my arguments (that wasn´t met at the time) but I will bring an article by Desmond Tutu on the issue <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4403427,00.html"; target="_blank">here</a>
I should have read the thread closer, and Rashumon I'm sorry. But as for the Israeli and South African hypothesis, really truly there's a lot there. I'm looking for the link right now. Post it up soon soon.
And I'm sorry about 'pitiless fascist'. That's lame. I changed it.
<a href="http://psc.za.org/pscsaourdeclaration.htm"; target="_blank">'Not In My Name'</a>
And I'd just like to reiterate, PCKilla or no PCKilla, there are solutions to be found. Everything is permitted: true dat.
Did you just call me a twat?
--
I know he was trying to make that point, but he still had to include it. He couldn't help himself, he still had to say, "But when Israel is under attack, the 2,000 year-old monster also rears its head."
It's kind of like me writing a long article about how fair and objective PC_Killa is and then my last sentence is "PC_killa is a twat."
Get it?
<strong>
I have argued that there is some similarities between SA and Israel especially when looking at the economy. I really don´t want to repeat my arguments (that wasn´t met at the time) but I will bring an article by Desmond Tutu on the issue <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4403427,00.html"; target="_blank">here</a></strong><hr></blockquote>
OK some points to prove my point.
1. Israel is a democracy its in fact the only country in the middle east where Arabs live under a democratic system and can vote, have political parties etc... some even serve in the Israeli Army and fight along side Jews to defend our land ! did you know that the general in command of Israel's southern zone (that includes the area's around PA controlled Gaza) until not so long ago is a Druz Israeli Arab ?
In SA blacks didn't have the right to vote couldn't serve in the security forces and any attempt by them at forming political parties was brutally curtailed !
2. Israel has a large majority of jews ( about 5 in 6 Israelis are Jews) SA the ratio was the other way around few million whites ruling and oppressing something ( not sure about the correct number) like 20 million Blacks....
3. This is the most important difference - The Aparthide system was enshrined in law that was racist. non of Israel's laws are racist ...indeed Israel has one of the most liberal constitutional systems in the western world which is quite remarkable considering the fact that its in a perpetual state of war..
4.Israel has recognized Palestinian aspirations and was having a peace process with the PA ( which is the De facto rulers of the West bank and Gaza) it was then attacked repeatedly by the PA and militant organizations..... All of the recent Israeli actions are as a result of Palestinian violence not as a result of a deliberate attempt to oppress Palestinian Independence ..in SA the whites were only interested in suppressing Blacks there was no attempt at negotiations and all of the initiative for the aggressive white behavior came from white policy and not as a response to black attacks.
The simple proof of that is that before the Intefada started there were no targeted killings, incursions or road blocks in the OT.
The settlement policy is a bad Israeli mistake but that alone can not justify calling Israel an Aparthide state !
The Israeli Palestinian conflict is a political one between two groups which are fighting for the same land .... it has very little to do with racism or with religion. Its a deep complicated problem, the two sides have a fair claim to the land and a compromise must be struck in order for both to be able to live in peace. the Important thing is to stop the violence, then for Israel to withdraw from all areas where military incursions have taken place and then to stop the settlements and then for both sides to get back to the table and sort this out with the help of the US ..... what I said is not only my opinion its called the Mitchel plan... comparing Israel to SA is neither true nor is it conducive to any real progress .. its cheap propaganda that helps no one !
[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
<strong> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Did you just call me a twat?
--
I know he was trying to make that point, but he still had to include it. He couldn't help himself, he still had to say, "But when Israel is under attack, the 2,000 year-old monster also rears its head."
It's kind of like me writing a long article about how fair and objective PC_Killa is and then my last sentence is "PC_killa is a twat."
Get it?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why is that ? is it not the case that anti-semitism is a 2000 year old monster ?
Sorry mate but your reply was a twat's reply
as John Cusak said in the film Gross Point Blank - ' why does everyone take it personaly ? its not personal !' <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
<strong>
OK some points to prove my point.
1. Israel is a democracy its in fact the only country in the middle east where Arabs live under a democratic system and can vote, have political parties etc... some even serve in the Israeli Army and fight along side Jews to defend our land ! did you know that the general in command of Israel's southern zone (that includes the area's around PA controlled Gaza) until not so long ago is a Druz Israeli Arab ?
In SA blacks didn't have the right to vote couldn't serve in the security forces and any attempt by them at forming political parties was brutally curtailed ! </strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes arabs in Israel have the same rights as other Israelis (and aren´t even forced into the military afaik). But for decades Israel have been in control of larges areas with palestinians who haven´t had the same social or political rights. If it had been a temporary occupation I would have been able to understand it but not when it continues for decades. Either give the land free or take responsibility of the people.
[quote]<strong>2. Israel has a large majority of jews ( about 5 in 6 Israelis are Jews) SA the ratio was the other way around few million whites ruling and oppressing something ( not sure about the correct number) like 20 million Blacks....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not importent and not valid taking my first comment into consideration. But even if it only was 5% that suffered it would still be wrong. The danish queen and her family can´t vote. Their politcal rights has been them denied and even thought it is only <10 persons its still wrong (but then again I want us to become a republic but thats a different story)
[quote]<strong>3. This is the most important difference - The Aparthide system was enshrined in law that was racist. non of Israel's laws are racist ...indeed Israel has one of the most liberal constitutional systems in the western world which is quite remarkable considering the fact that its in a perpetual state of war..</strong><hr></blockquote>
What does it matters if the way people in the occupied areas are treated according to a law if the result is the same? And please tell me why a palestinian refugee can´t return to his old house in Israel and live there like he did before 48 while a american or russian jew who (or anyone in his family for generations) have never been in the middle east can settle in Israel without any problems.
As I said also on the economy you can compare SA and Israel. Large part of the "dirty" work in Israel is done by palestinians from the occupied areas. Israels economy is suffering big time because of this when the boarders are sealed like now.
I know you want the palestinians to have their own state and you don´t like the settlements but that doesn´t change the policy of Israel. It created settlements and still do and did under the peace process.
<strong>mostly they are terrorizing and killing innocent people.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If you mean killing a few dozen terrorists that are firing AK-47s and setting off bombs at you then I guess we're guilty as charged.
I would fire AK-47s and set off bombs if a foreign army invaded my nation, too. I don't think I would be a terrorist for it, either.
<strong>
But for decades Israel have been in control of larges areas with palestinians who haven´t had the same social or political rights. If it had been a temporary occupation I would have been able to understand it but not when it continues for decades. Either give the land free or take responsibility of the people.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
That was relevant before the Oslo deal was signed, then Israel was seriously wrong and EVIL but in 1992 Rabin was elected and the peace process begun and since then Israelis have been trying to fix the wrong they have done ...until the intefada erupted ! also most Palestinians are not under Israeli rule since then.... they are under the PA... a 'very liberal and civil government'
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
What does it matters if the way people in the occupied areas are treated according to a law if the result is the same? And please tell me why a palestinian refugee can´t return to his old house in Israel and live there like he did before 48 while a american or russian jew who (or anyone in his family for generations) have never been in the middle east can settle in Israel without any problems.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
There is a huge difference between a warped system of racist laws ( like in SA or Nazi Germany) and temporary state of military occupation. There were laws in the OT under military rule as well and they wrn' t racist laws.... anyway the military administration of the OT ended with the Oslo deal in 1993. What about those 800,000 jews who lost all their possessions and homes when they were kicked out of Arab countries in the 40s and 50s they can't go back or gain compensation for their loses ? does that make all Arab lands Aparthide states as well ? and what about the millions of Muslim and Hindu Indians who lost their home during the partition time in India in 1947 they sure as hell can't go back does that make India and Pakistan Aparthide states ? or Serbs chased out of Kosovo under UN and NATO supevision ? do you see how mad this can get ? Israel is a land of the Jews not by choice but because its has been proved to be the only measure that would guaranty the Jew's survival.
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
As I said also on the economy you can compare SA and Israel. Large part of the "dirty" work in Israel is done by palestinians from the occupied areas. Israel's economy is suffering big time because of this when the boarders are sealed like now.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry Anders but on this point you are totally wrong its the Palestinians who are far more dependent on Israeli jobs ... Israel's economy is in problems not because of the lack of Palestinian work force but because the fighting and the terror and especially the world IT recession etc... Israel can cope very well without Palestinian workers ( It has been for over 2 years now ) its certainly not like it was (and still is BTW) in SA where all of the Production, agricaltural and mining jobs were being done by blacks and the economy would crumble without that system, its not even close to that structure.
[ 04-30-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]
[ 04-30-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
<strong>Israel's actions are inexcusable,as well as are the actions of any and all Palestinians that support terror.There is very strong evidence linking Sharon and Peres to atrocities during the 1967 war,so it is no surprise that it is happening again.They never should have been allowed to come to power.What the Israeli government is doing in the territories is far over the line of any legitamate military operation to root out terrorists,mostly they are terrorizing and killing innocent people.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Prove all these alegations or get lost !
There is very strong evidence
</strong>
Prove all these alegations or get lost !<hr></blockquote>
I'm still waiting for you to come up with some facts or explanations to what you said, especially blaming Peres ( a moderate man who is accepted around the world and a Nobel Peace prize laureate ) and Sharon for war crimes. Also prove your claim that Israel is deliberately targeting killing and torturing civilians ... If you can't back it up then why do you post these lies as if they were accepted facts ?
This kind of thing proves my point re the whole issue of this thread .... People these days are happy to assume the worst about Israel just because they saw it in some dodgy web site ... why is it that people enjoy getting so wound up about Israel and loose all sense of proportion when it comes the Israeli Palestinian conflict ?
Facts become meaningless and History ( even very recent ) becomes redundant.
[ 04-30-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>