This is the crux of the discussion here. I say it has little to do with function. If it were only function that mattered, this wouldn't even be a discussion.
How is it living in the 90s to think it's utterly ridiculous to call an iMac and an iPad the same category of "PC" when one depends on the other to function?
You chose to ignore the first part of my post. Let me give you another example. Would you consider the PS3 a PC? Up until few months ago you could install Linux on it. You can even hack it and still do it. Is it a PC? or is it a game console?!
The term PC "personal computer" is general term. This is why the terms desktop, laptop, netbook, tablet.. etc are used with with "PC".
The point is.. the term PC is not what you think it means. It is not the configuration or capability of the device. It is the function. There are smartphones in the market that does not require activation and can get OTA OS updates without being tether to a PC. Personally, I think if someone limit their definition of a PC to the traditional desktop/laptop computers then they are still living in the 90s and need to move on.
Right and my Texas Instruments calculator from 1980 was a PC and before that my slide rule and before that my abacus.
Right and my Texas Instruments calculator from 1980 was a PC and before that my slide rule and before that my abacus.
I didn't say that and the Calculator is not a subcategory of a personal computer "PC". The main functional distinction of a PC is being multifunction and general-purpose.
Good one, and this was the point I was trying to make as well!
Personal Computing devices have taken on many form factors and functions over the last 40 years.
Well based on specs my smartphone kicks ass compared to my first personal computer which was 8mhz with a 40meg harddrive. I remember when I started gaming (if you could all it that back then) the big upgrade was to go from 1meg to 2megs of video memory.
If products are even going to be sorted anymore then we need to at least come up with modern day catagories. PC is just too much of a general term these days. Decades ago when one or two devices fell into that catagory it was fine but that isn't the case anymore.
There isn't anyone today that can truly say on some level the smartphones most of us here carry are not on some level our personal computers.
I think the term PC or Personal Computers is outdated. Times have changed dramatically in regards to technology but we are still using the same outdated terms. Or I should say for mean their view of that term is outdated.
I have worked for IBM since I was 19, I remember when I mainframe system along with disk and tape devices would take up an entire building. Now in that same space we can house 20 times the devices. I remember the days when humans mounted taps rather then robots.
So to have a 1980's take on what a personal computers should or shouldn't be is very closed minded.
If someone uses even an iPhone or Android or any smartphone for that matter several hours a day its hard to say that isn't a personal computing devices for that person.
Is someone uses and iPad or MBP several hours a day or daily then that is simply the personal computer device that person has picked to suit their needs.
I am sure when this term was created it was becasue you could simply get the device in your house...lol.
Ha!
Good points.
AIR, the term "Personal Computer" was first popularized by Apple in 1978 to differentiate the Apple ][ from the many microcomputer offerings that were, largely, in kit form and were assembled and built by hobbists.
Later, in 1981, IBM subsumed the term with the announcement of the IBM/pc.
...... The discussion is whether broad category PC sales numbers should include iPads in with Macs. That's it. That's the entire discussion. Which you did not even address in your diatribe.
My answer is no. My questions revolve around the stark differences between an iPad and every other device considered a PC. Like..the fact..that you need..another PC..to actually...use it. .....
I haven't read all the posts in this thread so you'll forgive me if what I say has already been said. IMHO, the question of whether or not an iPad can be considered a "traditional PC" can be answered by asking ourselves two important questions. One, does the purchase of an iPad replace what would have been the purchase of a traditional computer? ... Two, does the owner of an iPad use it to do the "majority" of the things that they used to do on a PC.
If the answer to both of those questions is yes .... and I think that in the majority of cases that would be the case ... then I don't see how it cannot be included in the "PC" category. After all, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck .....
The only problem that I see is that different people want to categorize it in the category that best supports their opinion of any particular subject ..... total sales, for instance.
At the end of the day you can bet that Steve Jobs and Steve Ballmer could not care less what category it falls in ..... only how many units are being sold. ....
Well based on specs my smartphone kicks ass compared to my first personal computer which was 8mhz with a 40meg harddrive. I remember when I started gaming (if you could all it that back then) the big upgrade was to go from 1meg to 2megs of video memory.
If products are even going to be sorted anymore then we need to at least come up with modern day catagories. PC is just too much of a general term these days. Decades ago when one or two devices fell into that catagory it was fine but that isn't the case anymore.
There isn't anyone today that can truly say on some level the smartphones most of us here carry are not on some level our personal computers.
EXACTLY!
I made those exact points in this thread, although for a bit, in a rather inhospitable tone, which may/may not have skewed the actual point I was trying to make.
And I agree that personal computing devices are becoming a largely diverse lineup of devices, and I don't think that trend is stopping anytime soon.
While I'd be quick to side with the 'iPad is not a PC' crowd, the line between them is narrow and can be broken with a few basic changes. Just make it a master device with bidirectional sync and use file-centric not app-centric file management.
In some ways you can't help but think they did this on purpose to divert the attention away from what they were doing. Admitting Microsoft won the desktop war, allowing people to dismiss the iOS devices as toys without over-emphasizing how much of desktop OS X is in the system and then all of a sudden, we have a device with an IPS display, lasts for a full working day on battery, will have dual-core processors and graphics that match last gen consoles starting at under $500, able to wirelessly connect to a big screen when needed and has tens of thousands of apps and weighs about half what any ultra-portable does.
They just need to flip that switch that turns it into a standalone device usable just like a netbook and suddenly their marketshare spikes quite dramatically. The Lion OS should push this convergence forward a bit.
While I'd be quick to side with the 'iPad is not a PC' crowd, the line between them is narrow and can be broken with a few basic changes. Just make it a master device with bidirectional sync and use file-centric not app-centric file management.
In some ways you can't help but think they did this on purpose to divert the attention away from what they were doing. Admitting Microsoft won the desktop war, allowing people to dismiss the iOS devices as toys without over-emphasizing how much of desktop OS X is in the system and then all of a sudden, we have a device with an IPS display, lasts for a full working day on battery, will have dual-core processors and graphics that match last gen consoles starting at under $500, able to wirelessly connect to a big screen when needed and has tens of thousands of apps and weighs about half what any ultra-portable does.
They just need to flip that switch that turns it into a standalone device usable just like a netbook and suddenly their marketshare spikes quite dramatically. The Lion OS should push this convergence forward a bit.
I think you broke the code.
The Personal Computer is dead! Long live the Personal Computer!
It's not arbitrary. To me, the fact of having to sync changes my perception of the device the whole time I'm using it. When I create a file I'm thinking about the next sync. When I see the battery go down I'm thinking about the next sync. When I create a bookmark I'm thinking about the next sync. Sync is not an isolated thing that happens when I plug in, it is always there, effecting how I use it.
It's only a matter of time. I upgraded to iOS4.2 over WiFi. I download apps directly to iPad or iPod Touch ALL the time.
Most of you naysayers are missing the point about syncing. You sync because you cannot reliably run a mobile device with content you keep changing, without having the failsafe of at least ONE consolidated back-up terminal. And that is the device you sync to. Delete an app on the iPad, just sync and restore. Bought songs or apps straight into iPad? You're dumb if you don't sync to back them up to your consolidated back-up device. How else can Apple make it easy for you to use your apps and media on up to 5 devices per Store account?
Some of you have eyes, but you just don't see. Some have a brain, but don't seem to think much.
Why couldn't Apple do this starting today -- why wait for iPad3 or even iPad2?
The reinstall drive already exists,
The AirPort Express already exists.
MobileMe already exists.
iTunes Music Store and App store already know everything you've bought from them.
The North Carolina Data Center already exists.
The Airport Express (package, as described) is the digital hub between all the services in the home to all the services in the cloud.
Why do you need the Airport express at all? Not sure why you need the reinstall drive either but I guess it's nice to have.
If you wanted to force them to buy an Apple router I would make the base a iOS based TimeCapsule and allow it to store media for all iDevices including the aTV for those times the network is down and you can't see the NC data center.
$299 for an iOS based TimeCapsule to replace the host computer. Maybe buy the iHome company to get the rights to that name and rename it the iHome.
I must say this... If marketing is what you do for a living, you are demonstarting that you are not very good at your job -- you certainly have an unique way of promoting your ideas: close-minded; arrogant; arbitrary; argumentative...
Once again... I was gonna state the exact same thing. Marketing "pros"... please spare me!
I can?t recall the last time I didn?t agree with some point extremeskater was making.
Well Mouse and I got into it a long while back and while I can't remember the exact situation I am sure I posted something that came off bad and offended him so hopefully he can forgive me and we can both move on. Then with all the stupid trolling going on with users coming back under different names it just makes debates that much harder because people feel on edge.
Back to our point about personal computers while I'm not a huge Wiki fan I think this line sums it up best.
A personal computer (PC) is any general-purpose computer whose size, capabilities, and original sales price make it useful for individuals, and which is intended to be operated directly by an end-user with no intervening computer operator. PCs include any type of computer that is used in a "personal" manner.
Any type of computer that is used in a "personal" manner. Its not about some mystery hardware spec that is needs to meet or even a software spec. It's about what any given end users may need for their own personal use.
I am sure there needs to be some kind of line when it comes to hardware and software specs, I wouldn't exactly put a Kindle the the catagory of personal computer and in many areas I feel the iPad is really on the line because I feel this first gen product lacks some software features limited by iOS.
Its kind of like with high speed internet it has to at least meet 4mbps to be considered high speed. ATT can no longer sell 256kps and call it broadband lite. So I agree there needs to at least be a hardware and software spec met which these days shouldn't be that hard for many devices to meet.
Comments
This is the crux of the discussion here. I say it has little to do with function. If it were only function that mattered, this wouldn't even be a discussion.
How is it living in the 90s to think it's utterly ridiculous to call an iMac and an iPad the same category of "PC" when one depends on the other to function?
You chose to ignore the first part of my post. Let me give you another example. Would you consider the PS3 a PC? Up until few months ago you could install Linux on it. You can even hack it and still do it. Is it a PC? or is it a game console?!
The term PC "personal computer" is general term. This is why the terms desktop, laptop, netbook, tablet.. etc are used with with "PC".
Does the lack of something to activate it make the device not a PC?
Complete fallacy.
You don't NEED the Internet to use a Mac or PC. Come on.
The point is.. the term PC is not what you think it means. It is not the configuration or capability of the device. It is the function. There are smartphones in the market that does not require activation and can get OTA OS updates without being tether to a PC. Personally, I think if someone limit their definition of a PC to the traditional desktop/laptop computers then they are still living in the 90s and need to move on.
Right and my Texas Instruments calculator from 1980 was a PC and before that my slide rule and before that my abacus.
You still trying to use one fact about the setup / update of a device to define its class of device.
What defines a device is its use, NOT how it is setup / updated.
A car is still a car even with no petrol in it, locked in a garage, with no wheels.
Can you program your iPad to do anything or just buy Apps?
Right and my Texas Instruments calculator from 1980 was a PC and before that my slide rule and before that my abacus.
I didn't say that and the Calculator is not a subcategory of a personal computer "PC". The main functional distinction of a PC is being multifunction and general-purpose.
I am sure when this term was created it was becasue you could simply get the device in your house...lol.
LOL!
Good one, and this was the point I was trying to make as well!
Personal Computing devices have taken on many form factors and functions over the last 40 years.
I may have to rethink my position on this matter, since I find myself largely in agreement with extremeskater.
Well some believe the world is going to end in 2012 you and I in agreement may just be the start of that chain of events.
LOL!
Good one, and this was the point I was trying to make as well!
Personal Computing devices have taken on many form factors and functions over the last 40 years.
Well based on specs my smartphone kicks ass compared to my first personal computer which was 8mhz with a 40meg harddrive. I remember when I started gaming (if you could all it that back then) the big upgrade was to go from 1meg to 2megs of video memory.
If products are even going to be sorted anymore then we need to at least come up with modern day catagories. PC is just too much of a general term these days. Decades ago when one or two devices fell into that catagory it was fine but that isn't the case anymore.
There isn't anyone today that can truly say on some level the smartphones most of us here carry are not on some level our personal computers.
I think the term PC or Personal Computers is outdated. Times have changed dramatically in regards to technology but we are still using the same outdated terms. Or I should say for mean their view of that term is outdated.
I have worked for IBM since I was 19, I remember when I mainframe system along with disk and tape devices would take up an entire building. Now in that same space we can house 20 times the devices. I remember the days when humans mounted taps rather then robots.
So to have a 1980's take on what a personal computers should or shouldn't be is very closed minded.
If someone uses even an iPhone or Android or any smartphone for that matter several hours a day its hard to say that isn't a personal computing devices for that person.
Is someone uses and iPad or MBP several hours a day or daily then that is simply the personal computer device that person has picked to suit their needs.
I am sure when this term was created it was becasue you could simply get the device in your house...lol.
Ha!
Good points.
AIR, the term "Personal Computer" was first popularized by Apple in 1978 to differentiate the Apple ][ from the many microcomputer offerings that were, largely, in kit form and were assembled and built by hobbists.
Later, in 1981, IBM subsumed the term with the announcement of the IBM/pc.
... It's all PV (Pink Vanilla) to me
I am sure when this term was created it was becasue you could simply get the device in your house...lol.
Touché.
One could argue that these devices have disconnected us in ways that are bad for society as a whole. That these are actually impersonal computers.
I may have to rethink my position on this matter, since I find myself largely in agreement with extremeskater.
I can?t recall the last time I didn?t agree with some point extremeskater was making.
...... The discussion is whether broad category PC sales numbers should include iPads in with Macs. That's it. That's the entire discussion. Which you did not even address in your diatribe.
My answer is no. My questions revolve around the stark differences between an iPad and every other device considered a PC. Like..the fact..that you need..another PC..to actually...use it. .....
I haven't read all the posts in this thread so you'll forgive me if what I say has already been said. IMHO, the question of whether or not an iPad can be considered a "traditional PC" can be answered by asking ourselves two important questions. One, does the purchase of an iPad replace what would have been the purchase of a traditional computer? ... Two, does the owner of an iPad use it to do the "majority" of the things that they used to do on a PC.
If the answer to both of those questions is yes .... and I think that in the majority of cases that would be the case ... then I don't see how it cannot be included in the "PC" category. After all, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck .....
The only problem that I see is that different people want to categorize it in the category that best supports their opinion of any particular subject ..... total sales, for instance.
At the end of the day you can bet that Steve Jobs and Steve Ballmer could not care less what category it falls in ..... only how many units are being sold. ....
Well based on specs my smartphone kicks ass compared to my first personal computer which was 8mhz with a 40meg harddrive. I remember when I started gaming (if you could all it that back then) the big upgrade was to go from 1meg to 2megs of video memory.
If products are even going to be sorted anymore then we need to at least come up with modern day catagories. PC is just too much of a general term these days. Decades ago when one or two devices fell into that catagory it was fine but that isn't the case anymore.
There isn't anyone today that can truly say on some level the smartphones most of us here carry are not on some level our personal computers.
EXACTLY!
I made those exact points in this thread, although for a bit, in a rather inhospitable tone, which may/may not have skewed the actual point I was trying to make.
And I agree that personal computing devices are becoming a largely diverse lineup of devices, and I don't think that trend is stopping anytime soon.
Well some believe the world is going to end in 2012 you and I in agreement may just be the start of that chain of events.
Very likely. I wonder what the Mayan calendar has to say about this date.
In some ways you can't help but think they did this on purpose to divert the attention away from what they were doing. Admitting Microsoft won the desktop war, allowing people to dismiss the iOS devices as toys without over-emphasizing how much of desktop OS X is in the system and then all of a sudden, we have a device with an IPS display, lasts for a full working day on battery, will have dual-core processors and graphics that match last gen consoles starting at under $500, able to wirelessly connect to a big screen when needed and has tens of thousands of apps and weighs about half what any ultra-portable does.
They just need to flip that switch that turns it into a standalone device usable just like a netbook and suddenly their marketshare spikes quite dramatically. The Lion OS should push this convergence forward a bit.
While I'd be quick to side with the 'iPad is not a PC' crowd, the line between them is narrow and can be broken with a few basic changes. Just make it a master device with bidirectional sync and use file-centric not app-centric file management.
In some ways you can't help but think they did this on purpose to divert the attention away from what they were doing. Admitting Microsoft won the desktop war, allowing people to dismiss the iOS devices as toys without over-emphasizing how much of desktop OS X is in the system and then all of a sudden, we have a device with an IPS display, lasts for a full working day on battery, will have dual-core processors and graphics that match last gen consoles starting at under $500, able to wirelessly connect to a big screen when needed and has tens of thousands of apps and weighs about half what any ultra-portable does.
They just need to flip that switch that turns it into a standalone device usable just like a netbook and suddenly their marketshare spikes quite dramatically. The Lion OS should push this convergence forward a bit.
I think you broke the code.
The Personal Computer is dead! Long live the Personal Computer!
.
It's not arbitrary. To me, the fact of having to sync changes my perception of the device the whole time I'm using it. When I create a file I'm thinking about the next sync. When I see the battery go down I'm thinking about the next sync. When I create a bookmark I'm thinking about the next sync. Sync is not an isolated thing that happens when I plug in, it is always there, effecting how I use it.
It's only a matter of time. I upgraded to iOS4.2 over WiFi. I download apps directly to iPad or iPod Touch ALL the time.
Most of you naysayers are missing the point about syncing. You sync because you cannot reliably run a mobile device with content you keep changing, without having the failsafe of at least ONE consolidated back-up terminal. And that is the device you sync to. Delete an app on the iPad, just sync and restore. Bought songs or apps straight into iPad? You're dumb if you don't sync to back them up to your consolidated back-up device. How else can Apple make it easy for you to use your apps and media on up to 5 devices per Store account?
Some of you have eyes, but you just don't see. Some have a brain, but don't seem to think much.
Why couldn't Apple do this starting today -- why wait for iPad3 or even iPad2?
The reinstall drive already exists,
The AirPort Express already exists.
MobileMe already exists.
iTunes Music Store and App store already know everything you've bought from them.
The North Carolina Data Center already exists.
The Airport Express (package, as described) is the digital hub between all the services in the home to all the services in the cloud.
Why do you need the Airport express at all? Not sure why you need the reinstall drive either but I guess it's nice to have.
If you wanted to force them to buy an Apple router I would make the base a iOS based TimeCapsule and allow it to store media for all iDevices including the aTV for those times the network is down and you can't see the NC data center.
$299 for an iOS based TimeCapsule to replace the host computer. Maybe buy the iHome company to get the rights to that name and rename it the iHome.
It's a lttle early for April fools.
If an iPad is considered a computer then so should an iPod Touch and a Sony Dash.
And netbooks can play flash and don't need to be synced to a mother computer because they ARE a computer.
My digital watch is a computer, hence a PC.
My clipboard with built-in calculator is a tablet PC.
My tennis shoes are "mobile devices". And since almost everybody wears 2 shoes, shoe sales and market share should be counted twice.
I must say this... If marketing is what you do for a living, you are demonstarting that you are not very good at your job -- you certainly have an unique way of promoting your ideas: close-minded; arrogant; arbitrary; argumentative...
Once again... I was gonna state the exact same thing. Marketing "pros"... please spare me!
Touché.
One could argue that these devices have disconnected us in ways that are bad for society as a whole. That these are actually impersonal computers.
I can?t recall the last time I didn?t agree with some point extremeskater was making.
Well Mouse and I got into it a long while back and while I can't remember the exact situation I am sure I posted something that came off bad and offended him so hopefully he can forgive me and we can both move on. Then with all the stupid trolling going on with users coming back under different names it just makes debates that much harder because people feel on edge.
Back to our point about personal computers while I'm not a huge Wiki fan I think this line sums it up best.
A personal computer (PC) is any general-purpose computer whose size, capabilities, and original sales price make it useful for individuals, and which is intended to be operated directly by an end-user with no intervening computer operator. PCs include any type of computer that is used in a "personal" manner.
Any type of computer that is used in a "personal" manner. Its not about some mystery hardware spec that is needs to meet or even a software spec. It's about what any given end users may need for their own personal use.
I am sure there needs to be some kind of line when it comes to hardware and software specs, I wouldn't exactly put a Kindle the the catagory of personal computer and in many areas I feel the iPad is really on the line because I feel this first gen product lacks some software features limited by iOS.
Its kind of like with high speed internet it has to at least meet 4mbps to be considered high speed. ATT can no longer sell 256kps and call it broadband lite. So I agree there needs to at least be a hardware and software spec met which these days shouldn't be that hard for many devices to meet.