Anywho, how crazy is it that iPad is on version two already, and a whole slew of global companies with huge budgets have only released a single tabled, which is already ending production due to low demand and was hugely overpriced.
There should have been at least three tablets on android lunch - moto, htc, samsung. Along with a whole bunch of apps from those who participated in the "open" development of the OS. 17 apps is comparable to a web os lunch catalogue...
... Honeycomb games don't need any recoding to be optimized for a Tablet. ...
I'll give you that point BUT unfortunately Honeycomb / 3.0 applications barely exist, as everything is mostly for 2.3 or 2.2 which even Google says is not for tablets as there is no real touch interface.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UralBas
... Android apps, which by the way this week crossed 300K mark...
Again most are for 2.3 or 2.2 NOT Honeycomb 3.0
Android apps may catch Apple someday, just not today.
Actually, from the reviews I've seen Google's trick of having Android apps reconfigure themselves for larger screens on the fly doesn't work. At all. Apps end up truncating vital bits of the UI, and user actions result in unexpected behaviors.
Apple's simple scaling may not be ideal, but at least scaled up apps don't look terrible and they work. Not that it matters that much in Apple's case, since there is an abundance of apps made for the iPad.
Google, as usual, wants to make it easy for developers to work the least common denominator.
...everything is mostly for 2.3 or 2.2 which even Google says is not for tablets as there is no real touch interface.
??? Huh. Are you sure you know what you are talking about ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox
Actually, from the reviews I've seen Google's trick of having Android apps reconfigure themselves for larger screens on the fly doesn't work. At all. Apps end up truncating vital bits of the UI, and user actions result in unexpected behaviors.
It is interesting to see, that desktop apps, including apps for OS X, and web apps works very well on multiple screen resolutions and everyone expect it to work this way. Mobile applications are no different. Of course, it is possible to write an app that doesn't scale well, but reasonable experienced developer has no problem to write UI that scales well. I seen plenty of apps that works very well on the Xoom out of the box, which make the entire article moot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox
Apple's simple scaling may not be ideal, but at least scaled up apps don't look terrible.
They do look terrible. Anyone happy using original iPhone app on iPad. Not me.
I posted this in a different (wrong) thread, but this is much more apropos:
It all comes down to what you can do with your device, and how well it does it. Open or closed, most users are going to care about the experience first and the politics second.
Android on phones has done well because most people use their phones as communication devices first. Mobile email, texting, voice, maps, browser and some web enabled services. Makes sense for a device that you keep on your person at all times, and plays to Google's strengths as a web first company.
Tablets are another matter. They bode to be the next big personal computing paradigm. As such, they will be expected to deliver engaging computing experiences, not just scaled up phone type web services. There's no huge advantage to checking your email or texting or getting showtimes on a tablet over a phone, yet Google seems to think that will do.
It's ironic, because the smug dismissal of the iPad early on was always about how it was "just a consumption device." Real computing would happen elsewhere, we were told, so if you were content to lay back and stare at stuff go ahead and enjoy your toy computer.
Flash forward to the arrival of Android tablets. All of a sudden applications don't matter. Widgets matter, OS cruft matters, being able to access web services matter.
Meanwhile, the iPad continues to add robust productivity apps, and the they make whats available for Honeycomb look pathetic. No doubt applications will be added in time, but of what quality? Where are the really serious, carefully engineered full on applications going to come from?
But more generally, the delta is so huge it's almost comical. Outside of replicating what their phone can do, Android tablets seem to offer a computing experience from the mid-90s. If Google can't get their act together pretty soon, all those iPads with all those apps are going to start making a real impression on the general public. A great many people will have seen or used an iPad running some kind of extremely polished, powerful application, and when they go to look at buying a tablet for themselves and see the primitive state of Honeycomb apps, they're not going to be impressed. And the last thing they're going to think is "Yeah, it might not do much, but by God it's open!"
Apple's simple scaling may not be ideal, but at least scaled up apps don't look terrible and they work.
"Not ideal" seems to be an understatement. Pixel multiplication is probably the second worst scaling method that exists, and that is what the iPad has used in the few iPhone apps that I run on my iPad. What's worse on the iPad Doesn't use the Retina Display feature of the apps. That said, I don't know what methods Android devices use, I don't have one and I don't plan to get one in the short term. But given a company whose statement seems to be excellence, it doesn't jibe with the high probability that Apple can do a lot better better at no extra hardware cost and lot much software development cost.
Can't wait for someone to start selling a decent amount of Android iPad ripoffs. Then we can start talking about the OS market share, not the subsidised Pile 'Em High Sell 'Em Cheap phone market share. And then we can include all the iPod touches into the equation, and start to get a fairer feel for who is where in the hearts and minds of consumers and developers.
Points to note:
@ There is no competition between iOS and Android, iOS kicks Android into a cocked hat.
@ The competition based on phone market share is a bogus metric, it means nothing when more than half of one sides sales are on non-phone devices, and almost 100% of the other sides are phones.
@ Calling an App that just spreads out the UI elements to cater for the larger screensize "optimised" is like calling using 2X zoom for iPhone apps on an iPad "optimised", i.e., it isn't, it's fudged.
@ Suggesting "open" is an advantage to Android is nullified when carrier can choose to cherry pick if you get updates, and install shiteware on your phone that cannot be removed
@ If Androids are so open, why root?
@ If 1 device a year is too slow a development (Let's ignore the regular OS updates here for simples sake), then surely 1 every 3 weeks from a wide range of manufacturers is far too many, what's the benefit of laying down your cash now when you know that a) it will be superseded in a month by the next big Android thing, and b) might not even be able to updates your OS.
@ Finally, where is the killer app for Android tablets, or even Android full stop. If there are any good apps out there, they are also available on iOS, if they are exclusive to Android, there will be a better exclusive on iOS. This is an almost universal law. Show me a single Android app that is genuinely a) great and b) not available on iOS or bettered by something that is exclusive iOS - and of course I am not talking task managers, launcher widgets or other cruft that is basically just OS tinkering like a big boy PC would have.
To put that busy UI into perspective, here's how large the human hand is in relation to the iPad screen:
So how many of the controls in the iPad drum machine can be used without accidentally triggering something you weren't aiming for?
More controls != more usable.
See what you are doing in your example, that's called zooming, and it's what you can do in Rebirth, which only looks that way to be fair as it is a port of an abandoned PC/Mac application.
??? Huh. Are you sure you know what you are talking about ?
It is interesting to see, that desktop apps, including apps for OS X, and web apps works very well on multiple screen resolutions and everyone expect it to work this way. Mobile applications are no different. Of course, it is possible to write an app that doesn't scale well, but reasonable experienced developer has no problem to write UI that scales well. I seen plenty of apps that works very well on the Xoom out of the box, which make the entire article moot.
They do look terrible. Anyone happy using original iPhone app on iPad. Not me.
The thing is, that it's the OS "guessing" at how to remodel the UI based on the available screen size. Not all tablets (not all Android tablets) have consistent screen sizes, 1024x600, 1024x768, 1280x 1024 etc, all at different aspect ratios from 4:3 to 16:9 through 8:5 etc
The UI designer for these apps isn't specifying a design, the OS is merely extrapolating from one res at one ratio to another, and I would guess that even if it get's it right, it would not be the choice of UI that the designer would choose to do with that extra real estate. I'm sure the like iPad apps, the choice of design will be totally different, not just repositioned.
And you are right, iPhone apps look stupid on iOS, at least they could introduce native "retina" resolution without scaling on the iPad for apps that have retina resolution UIs. There would still be a border, but it would be smaller and not zoomed. This is the worst of both worlds, a retina UI iPhone app that is scaled down to the old size then zoomed up...luckily very few iPhone apps that you would want to tun on an iPad don't already have iPad versions anyway, but there are some standout irritating refuseniks, like Spotify etc.
"Not ideal" seems to be an understatement. Pixel multiplication is probably the second worst scaling method that exists, and that is what the iPad has used in the few iPhone apps that I run on my iPad. What's worse on the iPad Doesn't use the Retina Display feature of the apps. That said, I don't know what methods Android devices use, I don't have one and I don't plan to get one in the short term. But given a company whose statement seems to be excellence, it doesn't jibe with the high probability that Apple can do a lot better better at no extra hardware cost and lot much software development cost.
As per my above reply to someone else, I think the idea is that if they made it work great for Retina apps, there is less incentive to push the boat out and design for the iPad specifically, rather than just bodge it with better results than they currently do. It would be simple to just display retina apps native, but they won't, and they have a small point in that if it was designed for a 3" screen perhaps it's best left that way, and the zoom bodge is made obvious to you rather than have you thinking "this looks good, but it feels wrong."
some remind me how many native ipad apps were available before the hardware / os was, again? steve jobs, the ultimate troll - the guy should have finished school so he could learn how to write fair comparisons
some remind me how many native ipad apps were available before the hardware / os was, again? steve jobs, the ultimate troll - the guy should have finished school so he could learn how to write fair comparisons
I believe it was over a thousand. And 3 or 4 times more within a month. Remember, this quote is in itself over a month old, and there are still less than half (let's be really generous) the apps Steve suggested there were. I take it you are still at school, and have yet to get to the "fair comparisons" class.
To make it clear: "On April 8th, Steve Jobs announced 3,500 iPad apps were available in the App Store during the iPhone OS 4.0 media preview event in Cupertino. Approximately 3 weeks later, an additional 2,000 apps have been added, roughly 100 new apps a day." (via http://www.padgadget.com/2010/05/01/...pps-are-there/). Note the iPad was released on April 3rd, the iPad 3G wasn't to be released for a further 3 weeks, and neither was available outside of the states at the time.
I heard this is the place to hang out if you're an delusional Apple Fanboi = smug, pathetic, wannabe hipster douchebag.
You guys really work hard on that false sense of superiority. Give the tablet market a bit more time and Apple will lose that also.
Apple lost the desktop OS war with Microsoft and the Mobile phone OS market. Failed at both of those. Now they have a headstart on tablets but will lose that also. Get ready to be on the losing side again Apple Fanbois.
Think I'll sell all my iDevices just so no one mistakes me for an Apple Fanboi. Serious bottom feeders of the tech world.
I heard this is the place to hang out if you're an delusional Apple Fanboi = smug, pathetic, wannabe hipster douchebag.
You guys really work hard on that false sense of superiority. Give the tablet market a bit more time and Apple will lose that also.
Apple lost the desktop OS war with Microsoft and the Mobile phone OS market. Failed at both of those. Now they have a headstart on tablets but will lose that also. Get ready to be on the losing side again Apple Fanbois.
Think I'll sell all my iDevices just so no one mistakes me for an Apple Fanboi. Serious bottom feeders of the tech world.
Lost the Mobile phone OS market? To dozens of mutually incompatible, unupdateable versions of Android, given away up to buy one, get five free, while people are paying full price for iPhones and standing in line for the privilege? You Fandroids are so amusing!
Sell all your iDevices? Like anyone here believes you've ever touched an iDevice! If you expect to earn your pay, you're going to have to troll a lot better than this.
Comments
Negligible difference.
You mean it's a rounding error.
Anywho, how crazy is it that iPad is on version two already, and a whole slew of global companies with huge budgets have only released a single tabled, which is already ending production due to low demand and was hugely overpriced.
There should have been at least three tablets on android lunch - moto, htc, samsung. Along with a whole bunch of apps from those who participated in the "open" development of the OS. 17 apps is comparable to a web os lunch catalogue...
... Honeycomb games don't need any recoding to be optimized for a Tablet. ...
I'll give you that point BUT unfortunately Honeycomb / 3.0 applications barely exist, as everything is mostly for 2.3 or 2.2 which even Google says is not for tablets as there is no real touch interface.
... Android apps, which by the way this week crossed 300K mark...
Again most are for 2.3 or 2.2 NOT Honeycomb 3.0
Android apps may catch Apple someday, just not today.
Apple's simple scaling may not be ideal, but at least scaled up apps don't look terrible and they work. Not that it matters that much in Apple's case, since there is an abundance of apps made for the iPad.
Google, as usual, wants to make it easy for developers to work the least common denominator.
...everything is mostly for 2.3 or 2.2 which even Google says is not for tablets as there is no real touch interface.
??? Huh. Are you sure you know what you are talking about ?
Actually, from the reviews I've seen Google's trick of having Android apps reconfigure themselves for larger screens on the fly doesn't work. At all. Apps end up truncating vital bits of the UI, and user actions result in unexpected behaviors.
It is interesting to see, that desktop apps, including apps for OS X, and web apps works very well on multiple screen resolutions and everyone expect it to work this way. Mobile applications are no different. Of course, it is possible to write an app that doesn't scale well, but reasonable experienced developer has no problem to write UI that scales well. I seen plenty of apps that works very well on the Xoom out of the box, which make the entire article moot.
Apple's simple scaling may not be ideal, but at least scaled up apps don't look terrible.
They do look terrible. Anyone happy using original iPhone app on iPad. Not me.
??? Huh. Are you sure you know what you are talking about ?
Considering Honeycomb 3.0 is new to market, yes I am positive I am right. Your name fits you well.
I posted this in a different (wrong) thread, but this is much more apropos:
It all comes down to what you can do with your device, and how well it does it. Open or closed, most users are going to care about the experience first and the politics second.
Android on phones has done well because most people use their phones as communication devices first. Mobile email, texting, voice, maps, browser and some web enabled services. Makes sense for a device that you keep on your person at all times, and plays to Google's strengths as a web first company.
Tablets are another matter. They bode to be the next big personal computing paradigm. As such, they will be expected to deliver engaging computing experiences, not just scaled up phone type web services. There's no huge advantage to checking your email or texting or getting showtimes on a tablet over a phone, yet Google seems to think that will do.
It's ironic, because the smug dismissal of the iPad early on was always about how it was "just a consumption device." Real computing would happen elsewhere, we were told, so if you were content to lay back and stare at stuff go ahead and enjoy your toy computer.
Flash forward to the arrival of Android tablets. All of a sudden applications don't matter. Widgets matter, OS cruft matters, being able to access web services matter.
Meanwhile, the iPad continues to add robust productivity apps, and the they make whats available for Honeycomb look pathetic. No doubt applications will be added in time, but of what quality? Where are the really serious, carefully engineered full on applications going to come from?
But more generally, the delta is so huge it's almost comical. Outside of replicating what their phone can do, Android tablets seem to offer a computing experience from the mid-90s. If Google can't get their act together pretty soon, all those iPads with all those apps are going to start making a real impression on the general public. A great many people will have seen or used an iPad running some kind of extremely polished, powerful application, and when they go to look at buying a tablet for themselves and see the primitive state of Honeycomb apps, they're not going to be impressed. And the last thing they're going to think is "Yeah, it might not do much, but by God it's open!"
Excellent analysis. 'Nuff sed.
Apple's simple scaling may not be ideal, but at least scaled up apps don't look terrible and they work.
"Not ideal" seems to be an understatement. Pixel multiplication is probably the second worst scaling method that exists, and that is what the iPad has used in the few iPhone apps that I run on my iPad. What's worse on the iPad Doesn't use the Retina Display feature of the apps. That said, I don't know what methods Android devices use, I don't have one and I don't plan to get one in the short term. But given a company whose statement seems to be excellence, it doesn't jibe with the high probability that Apple can do a lot better better at no extra hardware cost and lot much software development cost.
I dream of a Hybrid Device that would unite Apple and Android and give us the best of both worlds. Is it possible?
Great idea! If we did have such a device I would guess it comes from Apple - similar to how Apple brought Windows to Macs through Boot Camp.
Points to note:
@ There is no competition between iOS and Android, iOS kicks Android into a cocked hat.
@ The competition based on phone market share is a bogus metric, it means nothing when more than half of one sides sales are on non-phone devices, and almost 100% of the other sides are phones.
@ Calling an App that just spreads out the UI elements to cater for the larger screensize "optimised" is like calling using 2X zoom for iPhone apps on an iPad "optimised", i.e., it isn't, it's fudged.
@ Suggesting "open" is an advantage to Android is nullified when carrier can choose to cherry pick if you get updates, and install shiteware on your phone that cannot be removed
@ If Androids are so open, why root?
@ If 1 device a year is too slow a development (Let's ignore the regular OS updates here for simples sake), then surely 1 every 3 weeks from a wide range of manufacturers is far too many, what's the benefit of laying down your cash now when you know that a) it will be superseded in a month by the next big Android thing, and b) might not even be able to updates your OS.
@ Finally, where is the killer app for Android tablets, or even Android full stop. If there are any good apps out there, they are also available on iOS, if they are exclusive to Android, there will be a better exclusive on iOS. This is an almost universal law. Show me a single Android app that is genuinely a) great and b) not available on iOS or bettered by something that is exclusive iOS - and of course I am not talking task managers, launcher widgets or other cruft that is basically just OS tinkering like a big boy PC would have.
To put that busy UI into perspective, here's how large the human hand is in relation to the iPad screen:
So how many of the controls in the iPad drum machine can be used without accidentally triggering something you weren't aiming for?
More controls != more usable.
See what you are doing in your example, that's called zooming, and it's what you can do in Rebirth, which only looks that way to be fair as it is a port of an abandoned PC/Mac application.
??? Huh. Are you sure you know what you are talking about ?
It is interesting to see, that desktop apps, including apps for OS X, and web apps works very well on multiple screen resolutions and everyone expect it to work this way. Mobile applications are no different. Of course, it is possible to write an app that doesn't scale well, but reasonable experienced developer has no problem to write UI that scales well. I seen plenty of apps that works very well on the Xoom out of the box, which make the entire article moot.
They do look terrible. Anyone happy using original iPhone app on iPad. Not me.
The thing is, that it's the OS "guessing" at how to remodel the UI based on the available screen size. Not all tablets (not all Android tablets) have consistent screen sizes, 1024x600, 1024x768, 1280x 1024 etc, all at different aspect ratios from 4:3 to 16:9 through 8:5 etc
The UI designer for these apps isn't specifying a design, the OS is merely extrapolating from one res at one ratio to another, and I would guess that even if it get's it right, it would not be the choice of UI that the designer would choose to do with that extra real estate. I'm sure the like iPad apps, the choice of design will be totally different, not just repositioned.
And you are right, iPhone apps look stupid on iOS, at least they could introduce native "retina" resolution without scaling on the iPad for apps that have retina resolution UIs. There would still be a border, but it would be smaller and not zoomed. This is the worst of both worlds, a retina UI iPhone app that is scaled down to the old size then zoomed up...luckily very few iPhone apps that you would want to tun on an iPad don't already have iPad versions anyway, but there are some standout irritating refuseniks, like Spotify etc.
"Not ideal" seems to be an understatement. Pixel multiplication is probably the second worst scaling method that exists, and that is what the iPad has used in the few iPhone apps that I run on my iPad. What's worse on the iPad Doesn't use the Retina Display feature of the apps. That said, I don't know what methods Android devices use, I don't have one and I don't plan to get one in the short term. But given a company whose statement seems to be excellence, it doesn't jibe with the high probability that Apple can do a lot better better at no extra hardware cost and lot much software development cost.
As per my above reply to someone else, I think the idea is that if they made it work great for Retina apps, there is less incentive to push the boat out and design for the iPad specifically, rather than just bodge it with better results than they currently do. It would be simple to just display retina apps native, but they won't, and they have a small point in that if it was designed for a 3" screen perhaps it's best left that way, and the zoom bodge is made obvious to you rather than have you thinking "this looks good, but it feels wrong."
some remind me how many native ipad apps were available before the hardware / os was, again? steve jobs, the ultimate troll - the guy should have finished school so he could learn how to write fair comparisons
I believe it was over a thousand. And 3 or 4 times more within a month. Remember, this quote is in itself over a month old, and there are still less than half (let's be really generous) the apps Steve suggested there were. I take it you are still at school, and have yet to get to the "fair comparisons" class.
Edit: Additions below:
A little light googling later, and I think you may be getting this http://www.techdigest.tv/2010/03/apple_ipad_to_o.html (12 iPad apps at launch, not including 3rd Party ones) with this http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...of-launch.html (URL says it all).
To make it clear: "On April 8th, Steve Jobs announced 3,500 iPad apps were available in the App Store during the iPhone OS 4.0 media preview event in Cupertino. Approximately 3 weeks later, an additional 2,000 apps have been added, roughly 100 new apps a day." (via http://www.padgadget.com/2010/05/01/...pps-are-there/). Note the iPad was released on April 3rd, the iPad 3G wasn't to be released for a further 3 weeks, and neither was available outside of the states at the time.
Remind me, what was your point again?
You guys really work hard on that false sense of superiority. Give the tablet market a bit more time and Apple will lose that also.
Apple lost the desktop OS war with Microsoft and the Mobile phone OS market. Failed at both of those. Now they have a headstart on tablets but will lose that also. Get ready to be on the losing side again Apple Fanbois.
Think I'll sell all my iDevices just so no one mistakes me for an Apple Fanboi. Serious bottom feeders of the tech world.
I heard this is the place to hang out if you're an delusional Apple Fanboi = smug, pathetic, wannabe hipster douchebag.
You guys really work hard on that false sense of superiority. Give the tablet market a bit more time and Apple will lose that also.
Apple lost the desktop OS war with Microsoft and the Mobile phone OS market. Failed at both of those. Now they have a headstart on tablets but will lose that also. Get ready to be on the losing side again Apple Fanbois.
Think I'll sell all my iDevices just so no one mistakes me for an Apple Fanboi. Serious bottom feeders of the tech world.
Lost the Mobile phone OS market? To dozens of mutually incompatible, unupdateable versions of Android, given away up to buy one, get five free, while people are paying full price for iPhones and standing in line for the privilege? You Fandroids are so amusing!
Sell all your iDevices? Like anyone here believes you've ever touched an iDevice! If you expect to earn your pay, you're going to have to troll a lot better than this.
Great idea! If we did have such a device I would guess it comes from Apple - similar to how Apple brought Windows to Macs through Boot Camp.
I wish they do it again, this time with iOS.