There is no real evidence as to when we'll see the G5, whether it be tomorrow or next year. As someone else has pointed out, pessimistic speculation is based on fact no more than is optimistic speculation.
Well I don't think that there was much evidence that the G4 was about to arrive when it did. And whatever signs there were then, Apple has only gotten more secretive since then. Personally, I think we'll see a G5 this year (sorry SUCKer). Hoping for one at the end of January is a bit optimistic, expecting one next year is a bit pessimistic.
[quote]As far as credible evidence of the 8500 is on its way soon, there's the
8540, which is shipping 2H02. Seeing as it is a further foray into Moto's
SoC program, the less complicated 8500 should be ready before that. Also,
varied sources indicate G5 test boxes having been in distribution for a
while.<hr></blockquote>
While you're pontificating you may want to change your post to reflect a little reality. If you are calling the 8500 the desktop version of the 8xxx series, then it is more complicated than the 8450, seeing as how the 8450 specs don't call out an altivec unit, L3 cache etc.
I don't feel the evidence that the 8540 will be SAMPLING in Q2/2002, not shipping, is any evidence that the 8500 is anywhere near ready, in production, or giving yields of uber Ghz chips.
And, the reason I said "tomes" more evidence is because Take the G4 evidence (solid) and put in in the Numerator and the G5 evidence (scant at best) in the denominator and you get the following equation
Yeah especially if there's only one major denier of the G5...SdC.
I'm not saying anyone here actually has a clue about what's coming and what's not, and which reports are sources, and which are just bogus.
But as little as I can accept the positive voices, I can accept the negative voices even less, simply because they are a minority. History has shown that the truly popular rumors usually also made it into a product. The iWalk only got popular because the fake video was rather well done, take that as an exception.
While you're pontificating you may want to change your post to reflect a little reality. If you are calling the 8500 the desktop version of the 8xxx series, then it is more complicated than the 8450, seeing as how the 8450 specs don't call out an altivec unit, L3 cache etc.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't believe this is necessarily true. An embedded processor would have other things built into it that normally wouldn't be necessary on a desktop processor. Things like ethernet, serial ports, and who knows what else, would all be built into the embedded version but could be ripped out for the G5 Apple would use. I believe this was covered earlier in this thread....
[quote]I don't believe this is necessarily true. An embedded processor would have other things built into it that normally wouldn't be necessary on a desktop processor. Things like ethernet, serial ports, and who knows what else, would all be built into the embedded version but could be ripped out for the G5 Apple would use. I believe this was covered earlier in this thread.... <hr></blockquote>
Yes but it seems to be the Altivec unit and L3 cache that is the choke point for MOTO in present G4 designs.
<strong>I don't feel the evidence that the 8540 will be SAMPLING in Q2/2002, not shipping, is any evidence that the 8500 is anywhere near ready, in production, or giving yields of uber Ghz chips.
And, the reason I said "tomes" more evidence is because Take the G4 evidence (solid) and put in in the Numerator and the G5 evidence (scant at best) in the denominator and you get the following equation
G4 (good)
---------- = veritable Tome
G5 (scant)
in math this may look something like
10.0000000000
------------- = 10e12 <----- Tome
.000000000001
Sorry, but a G5 is just wishful thinking.</strong><hr></blockquote>
am I missing something? what is "solid" about the g4 rumors?
Just wanted to say thanks to those who provided links to extremetech, Ars and other useful technology sites. Probably the best article I found on how the G4/G4e work vs. the P4 was one I had apparently overlooked on Ars.
One thing the article doesn't mention, is which models use the G4e (the 7450 and above I think) and the which use the G4 (7400 and 7410?)...makes for interesting comparison as the former uses a newer 7 stage pipeline and different branch prediction techniques than the simpler, 4 stage (no idea it was that pure a design!) 7400.
I don't believe this is necessarily true. An embedded processor would have other things built into it that normally wouldn't be necessary on a desktop processor. Things like ethernet, serial ports, and who knows what else, would all be built into the embedded version but could be ripped out for the G5 Apple would use. I believe this was covered earlier in this thread....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Support for specific ports and Ethernet is built into the processor? What's the motherboard for?
For that matter, why would an embedded processor depend upon Ethernet but a desktop processor wouldn't?
is it possible to strip altivec out of the g4/future g5 and have it on its own asic (raycer guys job?), therefore allowing Apple to use strictly the embedded chips and saving Mot $$$ and time designing new chips??
Support for specific ports and Ethernet is built into the processor? What's the motherboard for?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
As little as possible, for an embedded device, boards take up space, and add cost and power dissipation.
[quote]<strong>
For that matter, why would an embedded processor depend upon Ethernet but a desktop processor wouldn't?</strong><hr></blockquote>
The 8540 appears to be meant as a network controller. It contains one 10/100 Ethernet port, two 10/100/1G Ethernet ports, serial port, rapidIO 8bit port, PCI-X controller, DMA controller, DDR memory controller, interrupt controller, I2C port (a form of serial bus), a form of parallel port controller, and an onboard network to connect them.
Remember that an embedded device is purpose specific, a desktop processor needs to fit in to a number of possible systems, with different requirements.
Motorola Discloses First e500 Integrated Host Processor To Employ RapidIO Interconnect Technology
"Samples of the MPC8540 are expected to be available in the second half of 2002."
. There's more
"today unveiled its next generation high performance host processor "
"the MPC8540 is Motorola's first processor"
"the first RapidIO interconnect on a microprocessor
"As the first RapidIO-enabled processor, and first processor to utilize the powerful e500 core,"
"and provides Motorola with an ideal foundation for continued system-on-chip innovations."
"Announced in June 2001, Motorola's e500 high performance core is the first core from Motorola to implement the enhanced PowerPC "Book E" instruction set architecture."
Just off hand, I'd say the MPC8540 will be first, before any desktop G5 that Apple will be using.
Motorola Discloses First e500 Integrated Host Processor To Employ RapidIO Interconnect Technology
"Samples of the MPC8540 are expected to be available in the second half of 2002."
. There's more
"today unveiled its next generation high performance host processor "
"the MPC8540 is Motorola's first processor"
"the first RapidIO interconnect on a microprocessor
"As the first RapidIO-enabled processor, and first processor to utilize the powerful e500 core,"
"and provides Motorola with an ideal foundation for continued system-on-chip innovations."
"Announced in June 2001, Motorola's e500 high performance core is the first core from Motorola to implement the enhanced PowerPC "Book E" instruction set architecture."
Just off hand, I'd say the MPC8540 will be first, before any desktop G5 that Apple will be using.
Depends on what first means, amongst other things. Here, I suspect, first to be announced.
Also, Apple's G5 may not use the e500 core. "Book E" is the powerPC spec for embedded processors. Personally I suspect that what we talk of as the G5 will not use the e500 core, nor will it use rapidIO.
I recieved some info from an apple exec today... he didn't say much except to look for the g5 at seybold almost definately (if not then, then at tokyo). dual 1.4 GHz.He said G5...a new chip architecture, not the Apollo.
Comments
<strong>sdc,
You're gonna win, no doubt about it.
There is zero, zip, nada in the realm of *credible* evidence that the G5
is on it's way any time soon. What there is is a bunch of MacHeads wishing
and hoping against all odds that a G5 will be here in a month or so. Could
someone please outline the *real * evidence that a G5 will be released
really soon now....oh yeah, there isnt' any.
On the other hand, relatively speaking, there are tomes of evidence that
the Apollo G4 will next. I sure hope it is 1.4Ghz, but I'm seriously
sceptical of even that.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No credible evidence? Oh, please. As far as `tomes of evidence' go, NMR
does not count, unless you know something I don't.
If sdc is 9 months off, and the G5s come out MWTK, he's going to look as
dense as the uber optimists who predicted G5s at MWNY 01 (9 months early,
see). He probably won't admit it should it happen, but let this thread
serve as testament if it does.
As far as credible evidence of the 8500 is on its way soon, there's the
8540, which is shipping 2H02. Seeing as it is a further foray into Moto's
SoC program, the less complicated 8500 should be ready before that. Also,
varied sources indicate G5 test boxes having been in distribution for a
while.
8540, which is shipping 2H02. Seeing as it is a further foray into Moto's
SoC program, the less complicated 8500 should be ready before that. Also,
varied sources indicate G5 test boxes having been in distribution for a
while.<hr></blockquote>
While you're pontificating you may want to change your post to reflect a little reality. If you are calling the 8500 the desktop version of the 8xxx series, then it is more complicated than the 8450, seeing as how the 8450 specs don't call out an altivec unit, L3 cache etc.
- Mark
And, the reason I said "tomes" more evidence is because Take the G4 evidence (solid) and put in in the Numerator and the G5 evidence (scant at best) in the denominator and you get the following equation
G4 (good)
---------- = veritable Tome
G5 (scant)
in math this may look something like
10.0000000000
------------- = 10e12 <----- Tome
.000000000001
Sorry, but a G5 is just wishful thinking.
I'm not saying anyone here actually has a clue about what's coming and what's not, and which reports are sources, and which are just bogus.
But as little as I can accept the positive voices, I can accept the negative voices even less, simply because they are a minority. History has shown that the truly popular rumors usually also made it into a product. The iWalk only got popular because the fake video was rather well done, take that as an exception.
G-News
<strong>
While you're pontificating you may want to change your post to reflect a little reality. If you are calling the 8500 the desktop version of the 8xxx series, then it is more complicated than the 8450, seeing as how the 8450 specs don't call out an altivec unit, L3 cache etc.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't believe this is necessarily true. An embedded processor would have other things built into it that normally wouldn't be necessary on a desktop processor. Things like ethernet, serial ports, and who knows what else, would all be built into the embedded version but could be ripped out for the G5 Apple would use. I believe this was covered earlier in this thread....
Yes but it seems to be the Altivec unit and L3 cache that is the choke point for MOTO in present G4 designs.
<strong>
Yes but it seems to be the Altivec unit and L3 cache that is the choke point for MOTO in present G4 designs.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not the L3 cache, otherwise the 7440, which has it disabled, would be able to clock faster.
Michael
<strong>I don't feel the evidence that the 8540 will be SAMPLING in Q2/2002, not shipping, is any evidence that the 8500 is anywhere near ready, in production, or giving yields of uber Ghz chips.
And, the reason I said "tomes" more evidence is because Take the G4 evidence (solid) and put in in the Numerator and the G5 evidence (scant at best) in the denominator and you get the following equation
G4 (good)
---------- = veritable Tome
G5 (scant)
in math this may look something like
10.0000000000
------------- = 10e12 <----- Tome
.000000000001
Sorry, but a G5 is just wishful thinking.</strong><hr></blockquote>
am I missing something? what is "solid" about the g4 rumors?
If you want to understand pipeline stages and how they affect CPU clock rates and overall performance, check <a href="http://arstechnica.com/cpu/01q2/p4andg4e/p4andg4e-1.html"; target="_blank">Here</a>. Really good stuff.
One thing the article doesn't mention, is which models use the G4e (the 7450 and above I think) and the which use the G4 (7400 and 7410?)...makes for interesting comparison as the former uses a newer 7 stage pipeline and different branch prediction techniques than the simpler, 4 stage (no idea it was that pure a design!) 7400.
<strong>
I don't believe this is necessarily true. An embedded processor would have other things built into it that normally wouldn't be necessary on a desktop processor. Things like ethernet, serial ports, and who knows what else, would all be built into the embedded version but could be ripped out for the G5 Apple would use. I believe this was covered earlier in this thread....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Support for specific ports and Ethernet is built into the processor? What's the motherboard for?
For that matter, why would an embedded processor depend upon Ethernet but a desktop processor wouldn't?
is it possible to strip altivec out of the g4/future g5 and have it on its own asic (raycer guys job?), therefore allowing Apple to use strictly the embedded chips and saving Mot $$$ and time designing new chips??
just a thought...
<strong>
Support for specific ports and Ethernet is built into the processor? What's the motherboard for?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
As little as possible, for an embedded device, boards take up space, and add cost and power dissipation.
[quote]<strong>
For that matter, why would an embedded processor depend upon Ethernet but a desktop processor wouldn't?</strong><hr></blockquote>
The 8540 appears to be meant as a network controller. It contains one 10/100 Ethernet port, two 10/100/1G Ethernet ports, serial port, rapidIO 8bit port, PCI-X controller, DMA controller, DDR memory controller, interrupt controller, I2C port (a form of serial bus), a form of parallel port controller, and an onboard network to connect them.
Remember that an embedded device is purpose specific, a desktop processor needs to fit in to a number of possible systems, with different requirements.
Michael
. This is the title of the press release
Motorola Discloses First e500 Integrated Host Processor To Employ RapidIO Interconnect Technology
"Samples of the MPC8540 are expected to be available in the second half of 2002."
. There's more
"today unveiled its next generation high performance host processor "
"the MPC8540 is Motorola's first processor"
"the first RapidIO interconnect on a microprocessor
"As the first RapidIO-enabled processor, and first processor to utilize the powerful e500 core,"
"and provides Motorola with an ideal foundation for continued system-on-chip innovations."
"Announced in June 2001, Motorola's e500 high performance core is the first core from Motorola to implement the enhanced PowerPC "Book E" instruction set architecture."
Just off hand, I'd say the MPC8540 will be first, before any desktop G5 that Apple will be using.
[ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: rickag ]</p>
<strong><a href="http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/news/detail/0,1958,568_322_23,00.html"; target="_blank">http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/news/detail/0,1958,56 8_32 2_23,00.html</a>
. This is the title of the press release
Motorola Discloses First e500 Integrated Host Processor To Employ RapidIO Interconnect Technology
"Samples of the MPC8540 are expected to be available in the second half of 2002."
. There's more
"today unveiled its next generation high performance host processor "
"the MPC8540 is Motorola's first processor"
"the first RapidIO interconnect on a microprocessor
"As the first RapidIO-enabled processor, and first processor to utilize the powerful e500 core,"
"and provides Motorola with an ideal foundation for continued system-on-chip innovations."
"Announced in June 2001, Motorola's e500 high performance core is the first core from Motorola to implement the enhanced PowerPC "Book E" instruction set architecture."
Just off hand, I'd say the MPC8540 will be first, before any desktop G5 that Apple will be using.
[ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: rickag ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Depends on what first means, amongst other things. Here, I suspect, first to be announced.
Also, Apple's G5 may not use the e500 core. "Book E" is the powerPC spec for embedded processors. Personally I suspect that what we talk of as the G5 will not use the e500 core, nor will it use rapidIO.
Again we have no concrete information.
Michael
take from it what you want.
We're not that stupid.
- Mark