More importantly, how many GOOD apps are there in each store?
And how many malware infested apps are there in each store?
I'm not impressed by big numbers. The only thing that matters to me when speaking about apps: does it have all the apps I need or want to use? I expect it to have excellent web browser, e-book reader, media player and map application. That's about it. I have much more broader requirements on my smart phone, which should have universal capabilities. But in case of tablet I don't need that much. And I think the same holds true for most people.
iPad is a great device, but for me it is not enough portable.
Even though I am a big fan of Apple products, I have to say this tablet is pretty compelling at $199. That Tegra CPU blows away the current A5 processors in the iPad.
The Tegra 3 has 4 CPU cores (actually 5), the A5 has only 2 cores, so of course the Tegra will blow away the A5 in benchmark tests. Unfortunately, users don't pull out the CPUs and race them. They use the device and expect it to work smoothly. The iPad does.
Furthermore, the GPU in the A5 handily beats the Tegra 3. This is extremely important for iOS as a lot of processing is offloaded to the GPU to free up CPU cycles. This is the direction Apple is taking iOS, towards efficiency; GPUs offer more bang for the buck.
Don't get me wrong, having more CPUs can be better, but it doesn't automatically mean it WILL be be better. I think Apple believes this as well and they'll spend more time beefing up GPUs and other specialized processing units and only using marginally better CPUs as they're needed.
One of the goals of Jelly Bean was to make it more fluid, so they increased the FPS to 120. I've been watching side-by-side comparisons with Ice Cream Sandwich and the difference is pronounced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Funny how we've been hearing that since Android 1.0 came out - yet Android has still never reached the fluidity, consistency, and ease of use of iOS.
a hand full of good apps would be great for you, but you are a pretty small market, so the more great apps available the better the chances or helping more people out.
i own the new ipad & a 7 inch android tablet, i can tell you now, yeah, no great 7 inch optimized apps well no 10 inch optimized apps for that matter on android (if someone can tell me one, if like to know, get it & have a go), even things like fb are a joke, they are phone apps stretched out not taking advantage of anything, i like the small size for watching old standard def shows, the ipad is honestly the king of tablets i know that's obvious, but I'm trying not to be so bias, its very one sided with tablets, with phones, each to their own really, i like reliability smooth functionality, the echo system & no malware. but others don't care about such things & they can have it.
Agreed. And would like to add that Jelly Bean (Android 4.1) is more advanced than iOS 5 and possibly even iOS 6 when it comes to features.
Maybe. But let's stipulate that this is the case. Almost no one has ever said "I wish my operating system was more advanced." People buy these devices to use the applications, not to use the devices themselves.
I'm not impressed by big numbers. The only thing that matters to me when speaking about apps: does it have all the apps I need or want to use? I expect it to have excellent web browser, e-book reader, media player and map application. That's about it. I have much more broader requirements on my smart phone, which should have universal capabilities. But in case of tablet I don't need that much. And I think the same holds true for most people.
iPad is a great device, but for me it is not enough portable.
a hand full of good apps would be great for you, but you are a pretty small market, so the more great apps available the better the chances or helping more people out.
i own the new ipad & a 7 inch android tablet, i can tell you now, yeah, no great 7 inch optimized apps well no 10 inch optimized apps for that matter on android (if someone can tell me one, if like to know, get it & have a go), even things like fb are a joke, they are phone apps stretched out not taking advantage of anything, i like the small size for watching old standard def shows, the ipad is honestly the king of tablets i know that's obvious, but I'm trying not to be so bias, its very one sided with tablets, with phones, each to their own really, i like reliability smooth functionality, the echo system & no malware. but others don't care about such things & they can have it.
Clearly this device is targeted at stopping the Amazon Fire (which is sucking what little oxygen there is out of the 7" tablet market), but, frankly, except for the die-hard Google geeks, I think the few consumers tempted by small, cheap tablets are more likely to be attracted by the Amazon device than this.
Agreed. This will appeal to Google enthusiasts who want the latest and greatest OS when it comes out. Most consumers in the market for a 7" tablet will be more tempted by the Kindle Fire, which has the content, customer loyalty and brand recognition. Honestly who buys or even knows that Google sells content other than people who follow Google?
Even though I am a big fan of Apple products, I have to say this tablet is pretty compelling at $199. That Tegra CPU blows away the current A5 processors in the iPad. I like the fact it has GPS built in as well.
I agree that this tablet will not be serious competition to the iPad. It is the iPod Touch that is in serious trouble here. How can Apple hope to sell the current iPod Touch with an old A4 processor, 256 MB of RAM, no GPS and a tiny 3.5" screen for the same price as this 7" tablet? I fully expect Apple's 7" tablet to replace the iPod Touch. I just hope it can compete on specs with the Android Nexus tablet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtm135
Agreed. And would like to add that Jelly Bean (Android 4.1) is more advanced than iOS 5 and possibly even iOS 6 when it comes to features.
More advanced? If we are going to argue about specs, why is android choppy on supposedly "better" hardware than the iphone? The responsiveness of android will never be up to par to the iphone, no matter how much they try to brute force it with "better" or "faster" hardware. The only way to fix it is to rewrite the code so the ui and related actions are first class citizens. Id argue the new ipad's A5X processor in combination of ios wins hands down in terms of ui responsiveness, which is important to the end user because it will "feel" faster (not to mention it has to render double the pixels for a ~10" retina display which android doesn't have).
So until a software rewrite is in order... android will need supposedly "faster" hardware in order to achieve results (ui responsiveness) anywhere close to ios on idevices. So to look at just the specs or just the os is kind of fallacious because both have to be considered for overall performance and responsiveness.
Having a zillions cores, ram, ports, hacks, malware, doesnt nesisarlity make things better, its like having a muscle car & no roads to drive it on, get all the cpus & no apps of a incomplete OS to put on it, makes it silly
More importantly, how many GOOD apps are there in each store?
And how many malware infested apps are there in each store?
Funny how we've been hearing that since Android 1.0 came out - yet Android has still never reached the fluidity, consistency, and ease of use of iOS.
Responsiveness (low latency) and intuitiveness (skeumorphism with strict design principles and attention to detail) aren't just features they are the hallmarks of quality for a modern user interface and are far more important than poorly implemented features on a marketing checklist.
Secondary only to the user interface are use cases with intuitive workflow. Can I listen to music? Can I listen to music while performing other tasks? How are the controls accessed? Are the controls sufficient for any non-professsional user but intuitive? How is new music purchased? Are link capabilities provided for apps and websites to send users to the music store? Is music accessible on all my devices on demand?
Agreed. And would like to add that Jelly Bean (Android 4.1) is more advanced than iOS 5 and possibly even iOS 6 when it comes to features.
Which features? Sorry, but "features" are only of value to those that need them. So while one feature may be important to you, it might be meaningless to someone else. For instance, Apple's accessibility features are miles ahead of any other platform's, yet that feature is only useful to someone who's blind or otherwise handicapped. Furthermore, features are only meaningful when they're done right. Bolting and tacking on features just to say they're there isn't worth much if they're done half-assed. Microsoft products have always had more features than Apple's, but it was a mess and unintuitive to use them. Apple has always started products out simple and added things to them when they thought it could be done properly and be beneficial.
I would argue that iOS is much, much more advanced as a mobile platform than Android will ever be and it has nothing to do with "features." It has everything to do with architecture and ecosystem. Apple's vertical model offers them an unparalleled opportunity to create extremely efficient devices and offer 3rd parties a consistent platform to build products and services around.
There is nothing Android can offer me that would make my life any easier than I can already get from my iOS devices.
At this price point it was never going to be a competitor to the iPad.
What does the price point have to do with it? At $199 I think it is priced attractively to compete with the iPad. If it fails to compete it will be for reasons like people wanting the Apple ecosystem or iOS, poor performance, a 7" (tabphonish) screen, poor hardware quality, etc. If Google is able to pull off a reasonable level of quality within those parameters it could be attractive to a variety of buyers. I just doubt it will be enough to do serious damage because it is competing on a different level—largely due to the screen size.
It might help quite a bit with some markets, such as parents looking for a cheaper tablet for their children.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtm135
Agreed. And would like to add that Jelly Bean (Android 4.1) is more advanced than iOS 5 and possibly even iOS 6 when it comes to features.
Just wanted to point out—like others, I'm sure—that anyone shopping for products with a 'feature checklist' in their mind is going to be badly burned. At this point iOS and Android both have pretty rounded out feature collections so it comes down to ease of use, dependability, etc. And a feature checklist is completely blind to that consideration. At this point shopping on the feature checklist is as bad as shopping on blind hardware specifications (e.g. "Oooh! More cores! Must be faster!").
Of course they weren't. Apple never worries about the other boys unless they are copying. They design as they design and they strive to make the best they can make. Period.
And they add to that with very creative forms of 'advertising' like getting the textbook companies to join them in a massive initiative to make iPads way more desirable for schools. And it's working. 26k more units just this week from one school. Who knows how many more will pop up over the next few weeks or how many stores we'll discover are making the kids BYOD for this next year.
In fact this whole attempt is the exact same play as Amazon made with the Fire. Loss-leading hardware to support media sales and advertisements.
What people keep forgetting is that there is no evidence at all really that the Fire did well in the market place. I see stories all the time that talk about how successful the Fire was, but there isn't any actual evidence of that fact. All indications are that it did quite poorly.
What does the price point have to do with it? At $199 I think it is priced attractively to compete with the iPad.
That's what Google wants you to think. But we saw how well that tactic worked for Amazon with the Kindle Fire. this will likely be a repeat. At best they might take top marks for the Android tablets.
As for your 'feature list' you aren't totally correct. A feature list can be just the way to buy a tablet, it all depends on what features you put on your list. If you are specs focused you could prove to be wrong about what is best. But 'easy to use UI' and such are features and very good ones to judge something over the specs or even the price. Which is possibly why so many folks are still buying iPads hand over while Samsung etc report 'shipped' but not 'sold' to make their numbers look close to the same while ignoring all the units collecting dust or being returned by unhappy customers.
Same with cute tricks in an OS. I have a friend that jail broke his iPhone just so he could have icons that spin when he taps to open them. Really? That's the vital feature that made it worth the time to jailbreak your phone. Not doing FaceTime on 3g or something with some utility but spinning icons.
The big question is, we see iPads being integrated into schools, airlines, armed forces, hospitals etc.
The reason for this is the iPad is a secure device, you can't side load a load of crap onto it etc.
it also helps that Apple has added features and services to make them more appealing, including the ability for a company to make internal apps and their own mini store that is 100% authorized by Apple etc. Apple themselves are a prime example. Those repair service, POS etc apps that they have were made internally, you can't buy those anywhere. That kind of support is huge for companies. And look at the whole textbook thing. What other company went out and convinced the publishers to not only go digital but to revamp their stuff with interaction and gave them the tools to do it (for free) AND convinced them to lower the prices plus offer them to the general public to buy for homeschooling or just interest reading. That whole "Life on Earth" book I think I bought for $4.99 and the additional chapters will be free (there's like 10 in it at the moment with another 10-15 planned). And I just got it for the kicks.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
More importantly, how many GOOD apps are there in each store?
And how many malware infested apps are there in each store?
I'm not impressed by big numbers. The only thing that matters to me when speaking about apps: does it have all the apps I need or want to use? I expect it to have excellent web browser, e-book reader, media player and map application. That's about it. I have much more broader requirements on my smart phone, which should have universal capabilities. But in case of tablet I don't need that much. And I think the same holds true for most people.
iPad is a great device, but for me it is not enough portable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrangerFX
Even though I am a big fan of Apple products, I have to say this tablet is pretty compelling at $199. That Tegra CPU blows away the current A5 processors in the iPad.
The Tegra 3 has 4 CPU cores (actually 5), the A5 has only 2 cores, so of course the Tegra will blow away the A5 in benchmark tests. Unfortunately, users don't pull out the CPUs and race them. They use the device and expect it to work smoothly. The iPad does.
Furthermore, the GPU in the A5 handily beats the Tegra 3. This is extremely important for iOS as a lot of processing is offloaded to the GPU to free up CPU cycles. This is the direction Apple is taking iOS, towards efficiency; GPUs offer more bang for the buck.
Don't get me wrong, having more CPUs can be better, but it doesn't automatically mean it WILL be be better. I think Apple believes this as well and they'll spend more time beefing up GPUs and other specialized processing units and only using marginally better CPUs as they're needed.
One of the goals of Jelly Bean was to make it more fluid, so they increased the FPS to 120. I've been watching side-by-side comparisons with Ice Cream Sandwich and the difference is pronounced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Funny how we've been hearing that since Android 1.0 came out - yet Android has still never reached the fluidity, consistency, and ease of use of iOS.
a hand full of good apps would be great for you, but you are a pretty small market, so the more great apps available the better the chances or helping more people out.
i own the new ipad & a 7 inch android tablet, i can tell you now, yeah, no great 7 inch optimized apps well no 10 inch optimized apps for that matter on android (if someone can tell me one, if like to know, get it & have a go), even things like fb are a joke, they are phone apps stretched out not taking advantage of anything, i like the small size for watching old standard def shows, the ipad is honestly the king of tablets i know that's obvious, but I'm trying not to be so bias, its very one sided with tablets, with phones, each to their own really, i like reliability smooth functionality, the echo system & no malware. but others don't care about such things & they can have it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtm135
Agreed. And would like to add that Jelly Bean (Android 4.1) is more advanced than iOS 5 and possibly even iOS 6 when it comes to features.
Maybe. But let's stipulate that this is the case. Almost no one has ever said "I wish my operating system was more advanced." People buy these devices to use the applications, not to use the devices themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xmiku
I'm not impressed by big numbers. The only thing that matters to me when speaking about apps: does it have all the apps I need or want to use? I expect it to have excellent web browser, e-book reader, media player and map application. That's about it. I have much more broader requirements on my smart phone, which should have universal capabilities. But in case of tablet I don't need that much. And I think the same holds true for most people.
iPad is a great device, but for me it is not enough portable.
a hand full of good apps would be great for you, but you are a pretty small market, so the more great apps available the better the chances or helping more people out.
i own the new ipad & a 7 inch android tablet, i can tell you now, yeah, no great 7 inch optimized apps well no 10 inch optimized apps for that matter on android (if someone can tell me one, if like to know, get it & have a go), even things like fb are a joke, they are phone apps stretched out not taking advantage of anything, i like the small size for watching old standard def shows, the ipad is honestly the king of tablets i know that's obvious, but I'm trying not to be so bias, its very one sided with tablets, with phones, each to their own really, i like reliability smooth functionality, the echo system & no malware. but others don't care about such things & they can have it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
Clearly this device is targeted at stopping the Amazon Fire (which is sucking what little oxygen there is out of the 7" tablet market), but, frankly, except for the die-hard Google geeks, I think the few consumers tempted by small, cheap tablets are more likely to be attracted by the Amazon device than this.
Agreed. This will appeal to Google enthusiasts who want the latest and greatest OS when it comes out. Most consumers in the market for a 7" tablet will be more tempted by the Kindle Fire, which has the content, customer loyalty and brand recognition. Honestly who buys or even knows that Google sells content other than people who follow Google?
People search, they go to Google.
People shop, they go to Amazon.
It's about using maximizing your brand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrangerFX
Even though I am a big fan of Apple products, I have to say this tablet is pretty compelling at $199. That Tegra CPU blows away the current A5 processors in the iPad. I like the fact it has GPS built in as well.
I agree that this tablet will not be serious competition to the iPad. It is the iPod Touch that is in serious trouble here. How can Apple hope to sell the current iPod Touch with an old A4 processor, 256 MB of RAM, no GPS and a tiny 3.5" screen for the same price as this 7" tablet? I fully expect Apple's 7" tablet to replace the iPod Touch. I just hope it can compete on specs with the Android Nexus tablet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtm135
Agreed. And would like to add that Jelly Bean (Android 4.1) is more advanced than iOS 5 and possibly even iOS 6 when it comes to features.
More advanced? If we are going to argue about specs, why is android choppy on supposedly "better" hardware than the iphone? The responsiveness of android will never be up to par to the iphone, no matter how much they try to brute force it with "better" or "faster" hardware. The only way to fix it is to rewrite the code so the ui and related actions are first class citizens. Id argue the new ipad's A5X processor in combination of ios wins hands down in terms of ui responsiveness, which is important to the end user because it will "feel" faster (not to mention it has to render double the pixels for a ~10" retina display which android doesn't have).
http://www.redmondpie.com/heres-why-androids-ui-will-never-be-as-smooth-as-ios-or-windows-phone-7/
https://plus.google.com/105051985738280261832/posts/2FXDCz8x93s
https://plus.google.com/100838276097451809262/posts/VDkV9XaJRGS
So until a software rewrite is in order... android will need supposedly "faster" hardware in order to achieve results (ui responsiveness) anywhere close to ios on idevices. So to look at just the specs or just the os is kind of fallacious because both have to be considered for overall performance and responsiveness.
Having a zillions cores, ram, ports, hacks, malware, doesnt nesisarlity make things better, its like having a muscle car & no roads to drive it on, get all the cpus & no apps of a incomplete OS to put on it, makes it silly
Responsiveness (low latency) and intuitiveness (skeumorphism with strict design principles and attention to detail) aren't just features they are the hallmarks of quality for a modern user interface and are far more important than poorly implemented features on a marketing checklist.
Secondary only to the user interface are use cases with intuitive workflow. Can I listen to music? Can I listen to music while performing other tasks? How are the controls accessed? Are the controls sufficient for any non-professsional user but intuitive? How is new music purchased? Are link capabilities provided for apps and websites to send users to the music store? Is music accessible on all my devices on demand?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtm135
Agreed. And would like to add that Jelly Bean (Android 4.1) is more advanced than iOS 5 and possibly even iOS 6 when it comes to features.
Which features? Sorry, but "features" are only of value to those that need them. So while one feature may be important to you, it might be meaningless to someone else. For instance, Apple's accessibility features are miles ahead of any other platform's, yet that feature is only useful to someone who's blind or otherwise handicapped. Furthermore, features are only meaningful when they're done right. Bolting and tacking on features just to say they're there isn't worth much if they're done half-assed. Microsoft products have always had more features than Apple's, but it was a mess and unintuitive to use them. Apple has always started products out simple and added things to them when they thought it could be done properly and be beneficial.
I would argue that iOS is much, much more advanced as a mobile platform than Android will ever be and it has nothing to do with "features." It has everything to do with architecture and ecosystem. Apple's vertical model offers them an unparalleled opportunity to create extremely efficient devices and offer 3rd parties a consistent platform to build products and services around.
There is nothing Android can offer me that would make my life any easier than I can already get from my iOS devices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony
At this price point it was never going to be a competitor to the iPad.
What does the price point have to do with it? At $199 I think it is priced attractively to compete with the iPad. If it fails to compete it will be for reasons like people wanting the Apple ecosystem or iOS, poor performance, a 7" (tabphonish) screen, poor hardware quality, etc. If Google is able to pull off a reasonable level of quality within those parameters it could be attractive to a variety of buyers. I just doubt it will be enough to do serious damage because it is competing on a different level—largely due to the screen size.
It might help quite a bit with some markets, such as parents looking for a cheaper tablet for their children.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtm135
Agreed. And would like to add that Jelly Bean (Android 4.1) is more advanced than iOS 5 and possibly even iOS 6 when it comes to features.
Just wanted to point out—like others, I'm sure—that anyone shopping for products with a 'feature checklist' in their mind is going to be badly burned. At this point iOS and Android both have pretty rounded out feature collections so it comes down to ease of use, dependability, etc. And a feature checklist is completely blind to that consideration. At this point shopping on the feature checklist is as bad as shopping on blind hardware specifications (e.g. "Oooh! More cores! Must be faster!").
Ads dear boy, ads. Google wants to fire ads at you - like Facebook, it's the only way they make money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR
Or at any other price point either.
If they can't even get the device's dimensions right, then I can't see them getting the more complicated stuff right either.
And, seriously, where's the kickstand and stylus?
(>_<)
Get the Microsoft Surface 7 for the kickstand (which I'm sure they patented cause it's such an awesome feature).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton
I don't think Apple was ever worried about this.
Of course they weren't. Apple never worries about the other boys unless they are copying. They design as they design and they strive to make the best they can make. Period.
And they add to that with very creative forms of 'advertising' like getting the textbook companies to join them in a massive initiative to make iPads way more desirable for schools. And it's working. 26k more units just this week from one school. Who knows how many more will pop up over the next few weeks or how many stores we'll discover are making the kids BYOD for this next year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dickprinter
That's a great business model. No margin?
Same margins as Amazon's for the Fire tablet.
In fact this whole attempt is the exact same play as Amazon made with the Fire. Loss-leading hardware to support media sales and advertisements.
What people keep forgetting is that there is no evidence at all really that the Fire did well in the market place. I see stories all the time that talk about how successful the Fire was, but there isn't any actual evidence of that fact. All indications are that it did quite poorly.
The big question is, we see iPads being integrated into schools, airlines, armed forces, hospitals etc.
The reason for this is the iPad is a secure device, you can't side load a load of crap onto it etc.
This is a top reason why the iPad is so popular in business, can anyone imagine using one of these in critical situation?
BTW I think the surface will also suffer from this untrusted status due the dire security history of MS and again the openness of the system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Zhu Xuande
What does the price point have to do with it? At $199 I think it is priced attractively to compete with the iPad.
That's what Google wants you to think. But we saw how well that tactic worked for Amazon with the Kindle Fire. this will likely be a repeat. At best they might take top marks for the Android tablets.
As for your 'feature list' you aren't totally correct. A feature list can be just the way to buy a tablet, it all depends on what features you put on your list. If you are specs focused you could prove to be wrong about what is best. But 'easy to use UI' and such are features and very good ones to judge something over the specs or even the price. Which is possibly why so many folks are still buying iPads hand over while Samsung etc report 'shipped' but not 'sold' to make their numbers look close to the same while ignoring all the units collecting dust or being returned by unhappy customers.
Same with cute tricks in an OS. I have a friend that jail broke his iPhone just so he could have icons that spin when he taps to open them. Really? That's the vital feature that made it worth the time to jailbreak your phone. Not doing FaceTime on 3g or something with some utility but spinning icons.
Probably the same thing as Google's "in-house" Nexus phone. It runs stock Android. No big deal, really.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stniuk
The big question is, we see iPads being integrated into schools, airlines, armed forces, hospitals etc.
The reason for this is the iPad is a secure device, you can't side load a load of crap onto it etc.
it also helps that Apple has added features and services to make them more appealing, including the ability for a company to make internal apps and their own mini store that is 100% authorized by Apple etc. Apple themselves are a prime example. Those repair service, POS etc apps that they have were made internally, you can't buy those anywhere. That kind of support is huge for companies. And look at the whole textbook thing. What other company went out and convinced the publishers to not only go digital but to revamp their stuff with interaction and gave them the tools to do it (for free) AND convinced them to lower the prices plus offer them to the general public to buy for homeschooling or just interest reading. That whole "Life on Earth" book I think I bought for $4.99 and the additional chapters will be free (there's like 10 in it at the moment with another 10-15 planned). And I just got it for the kicks.