You said it better than I did. I love seeing the older generations interact with Apple's products. About 3 weeks ago, I was in the Apple store and saw an elderly lady using an iPad for the first time. Too awesome, she walked out of the store a purchaser, too.
And my 83 year old grandmother adores her gen 1 Fire. She reads books in huge font, listens to audiobooks, and plays card games on it. That this technology has become accessible and intuitive is what is driving older folks to adopt it , and that is the real boon here. I'm sorry, but Apple hasn't patented that yet.
If you were on a fixed budget, which would look more attractive to you: a $199 Fire, or a $499 iPad?
The over 40 crowd are the true fans of Apple products. Most of the young whipper snappers never heard of Apple before the iPod.
Um, what? The under 40 crowd GREW UP with Apple products in the classroom. From the Apple II's running Oregon Trail, Number Munchers and Odell Lake, to the original Macintosh, to the IIGS, Performa series and the original iMac with hockey puck mouse, an Apple was most likely the first computer any child that went to public school after 1980 ever used.
I've read some whoppers on this site, but your statement just completely takes the taco, Das.
If this ends up being final, then it is a huge mistake on Amazon's part. I don't find the adds obtrusive on the Kindle Touch, but thats because I spend 99% of the time in a book. The menu's only function for me is to load the next book(or occasionally purchases directly on the device). On a tablet, this would not be the case. The lockscreen advertising wouldn't bother me(I am assuming a static advertisement). Seeing adds when I am switching apps, browsing, etc makes this seem, for lack of better words, cheap.
I agree. I'm looking at one of these as a gift for a friend who is a voracious reader of dead-trees books, but that seems tacky and, as you point out, cheap. I do hope Amazon will come around on this.
Also, it just seems so odd that Bezos had such a detailed, fact-filled presentation but chose not to address this, only to have it leak out if fits and starts when everyone should be talking about how this product launch was such a game changer.
Wholly molly. What is Amazon thinking? Maybe someone won't mind ads and the user tracking that comes with them. I however, do mind the ads. This is too intrusive.
Here's my prediction. It's going to go the way Cable TV has gone. In the next 5 years we'll see this sale strategy make it's way around the various tablet and PC companies (except for Apple).
Then it will be just generally accepted that Ads will be part of the user experience...just like cable. In the early days of cable we paid money to watch commercial-free broadcasting. That's why we paid for it. Now you pay money for what? just expanded programming, and you pay a LOT for it. That's why pirating is such a huge thing. It's easy and it's free.
Apple got it right with the iTunes store. Offer a price-point that people would be stupid not to pay, and a service that's easy as pie, and they'll go for it.
The rest of the world's strategy: we'll give you what you want, but it's going to hurt a little, and you still have to pay for it.
Another great example of the future of mobile computing (tablet or otherwise). Look at Dwell Magazine.
The first 4 years it came out, it was a 100+ page leaflet with brilliant articles and excellent photography.
Wins April 2005 National Magazine Award for General Excellence in the 100,000-to-250,000 circulation category.
Oct/Nov. 2005 issue...turned a new leaf towards ads and creates the same magazine, but with double the ads (in total a 250+ page tome) with the same amount of content as before.
Wins March 2006 Adweek 2006 Creative Team of the Year award.
Today, they reduced the issues back to the 100+ mark, but now have a better balance of ads and content. However, the content is no better than any other design magazines found in the check-out line.
PC companies have been doing this for years. It's called free trials and every non-Apple PC I've every bought is littered with it. It's why the first thing many people do when they get a computer is reinstall Windows.
Um, what? The under 40 crowd GREW UP with Apple products in the classroom. From the Apple II's running Oregon Trail, Number Munchers and Odell Lake, to the original Macintosh, to the IIGS, Performa series and the original iMac with hockey puck mouse, an Apple was most likely the first computer any child that went to public school after 1980 ever used.
I've read some whoppers on this site, but your statement just completely takes the taco, Das.
So it must be that because that was your experience it must be everyone else's. Sorry to bust your bubble but most school districts can barely afford PCs let alone Apple computers.
OMG. no one here yet has got to the killer question: will Amazon track EVERYTHING you do with the Fire? not just the ads and the store, that's a given. i mean, everything else? every web page? every Facebook/social site whatever? all uploads/downloads? and more? at least there is no GPS to track ...
these questions need to be asked, and answered. if anything, Amazon's data mining philosophy is worse than Google's. they want to own your digital ass.
bottom line, these new Amazon tablets are for the 'coupon clipper' market. the people that pick up free newspapers just for the coupons and throw the rest on the floor/sidewalk, unread. yes, there are quite a lot of them. 10-15% of the market. really, i don't think they would otherwise buy any tablet at all for themselves (except to shut up the kids), just a cheap smartphone for basic functions.
that is no threat to the iPad at all. but a does carve a substantial chunk out of the Google ecosystem's potential 'cheap crap' market.
and the Windows Surface ecosystem? oh please, don't make me laugh ... the coupon clippers wouldn't even be able to figure out how to open them up.
Just to update everyone with the latest information. Amazon has corrected previous comments and explicitly stated that the advertisements do not offer an opt out. (1)
Thanks. Just as some of us suspected. (Hopefully, it'll shut up that Baka-Dubbs guy.)
In any event, I am surprised that there's so much commentary here about this. What Amazon is doing is perfectly understandable, and very similar to what Android is all about. Simply put, they are catering to socioeconomic segments that find non-ad-supported gadgets, games, apps, websites etc. to be too expensive. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Indeed, I laud them for it. Someone has to do it. If they make money doing it, good for them (although, I think that Amazon's valuation is a complete bubble)..
What I do find weird is how people keep comparing these cheap products to Apple. Totally different products for different market segments.
Yes, because I am currently writing a dissertation that includes a detailed cost benefit analaysis of the Ad supported kindle vs the ad free kinde... Oh wait, Im not doing that, I am posting in a forum. But your right, I guess going forward we need to implement a quotation system for AI. My preferred method is footnotes, but maybe AI will implement a standard citation system...
Just to update everyone with the latest information. Amazon has corrected previous comments and explicitly stated that the advertisements do not offer an opt out. (1)
1. John P. Falcone. 7 September 2012. Amazon confirms: All new Kindle Fires stuck with ads.CNET. Retrieved 7 September 2012.
I recommend taking note of this citation. This poster seems attentive to details and demonstrates concern for accuracy.
Just to update everyone with the latest information. Amazon has corrected previous comments and explicitly stated that the advertisements do not offer an opt out. (1)
Still, what a colossal clusterf*** to have this discussion steal the thunder of an otherwise (IMO) great product rollout.
Has anyone seen how much the renewal of the 250MB LTE plan is going to cost? It's clear that the $200 upcharge for the Kindle Fire 4G includes a subsidy, but until we see how much the renewal is going to cost we won't know by how much.
Still, what a colossal clusterf*** to have this discussion steal the thunder of an otherwise (IMO) great product rollout.
Definitely losing control of their message. I can understand the less expensive devices, but when you're talking even the flagship product was supposedly being ad subsidized, that was a bit much to expect.
Has anyone seen how much the renewal of the 250MB LTE plan is going to cost? It's clear that the $200 upcharge for the Kindle Fire 4G includes a subsidy, but until we see how much the renewal is going to cost we won't know by how much.
Where do you figure that cost difference goes to ISP subsidy? Apple charges $130 for the cellular version, which gets the radios and GPS chip, and that's subsidy free. That leaves a $70 difference (maybe up that to $100 to include a profit margin on the Apple device) which doesn't really cover the difference in a year's service cost with other tablets. The cost of the data service is pretty low though, so it is good to question what the second year and overages are going to cost.
Thanks. Just as some of us suspected. (Hopefully, it'll shut up that Baka-Dubbs guy.)
In any event, I am surprised that there's so much commentary here about this. What Amazon is doing is perfectly understandable, and very similar to what Android is all about. Simply put, they are catering to socioeconomic segments that find non-ad-supported gadgets, games, apps, websites etc. to be too expensive. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Indeed, I laud them for it. Someone has to do it. If they make money doing it, good for them (although, I think that Amazon's valuation is a complete bubble)..
What I do find weird is how people keep comparing these cheap products to Apple. Totally different products for different market segments.
Well, it looks like your suspicions were wrong, even if it was handled absolutely terribly by amazon(I know this won't shut you up). Amazon is normally pretty good about listening to their customers, so while I will say they were stupid for not having it in place from the beginning, I'll give them credit for realizing how bad of an idea it was. I know, i should provide a link, but someone already has so I think I am good on this one.
Bezos: This one is pretty straightforward. We don’t want to lose a lot of money on the device.
Are you losing any money?
Bezos: We don’t disclose the exact bill and materials, so I can’t answer that. But we don’t want to lose a lot of money on the device because then we’d really hate it if you put it in the desk drawer. On the other hand, if you make a lot of money on the device, I believe you haven’t earned your money on it yet, and then you’ve incentivized them (the customers) to stay on the upgrade treadmill that I mentioned today.
Quote:
Is the price of the Kindle Fire HD with LTE ($499) subsidizing the data plan?
Bezos: I’m not going to break out the economics of any particular piece with you, but you’re right, it’s an astonishing price point.
How does special offers, or the advertising, play a role in the price point?
[Bezos:]We had it on our E-Ink devices, but haven’t had it on the Kindle Fire. For those, it’s very good, no one really buys the non-special-offers version. Everyone buys the special-offers version. There aren’t two versions of this (pointing to the new 7-inch Kindle Fire HD). That was a decision we made because no one is willing to buy the non-special-offers version.
So Bezos won't say that they aren't losing money on each unit. He also won't say they're subsidizing the data plan for the LTE Kindle Fire, though we'll be able to do the math when the first 250MB/month plan renewals show up in the 2nd year or 13th month. But Bezos clearly didn't think through the "with ads" sh*tstorm that ensued.
So Bezos won't say that they aren't losing money on each unit. He also won't say they're subsidizing the LTE Kindle Fire, though we'll be able to do the math when the first 250MB/month plan renewals show up in the 2nd year or 13th month. But Bezos clearly didn't think through the "with ads" sh*tstorm that ensued.
Amazon is so cagey about the performance of their Kindle division, it's really sad.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by allenbf
You said it better than I did. I love seeing the older generations interact with Apple's products. About 3 weeks ago, I was in the Apple store and saw an elderly lady using an iPad for the first time. Too awesome, she walked out of the store a purchaser, too.
And my 83 year old grandmother adores her gen 1 Fire. She reads books in huge font, listens to audiobooks, and plays card games on it. That this technology has become accessible and intuitive is what is driving older folks to adopt it , and that is the real boon here. I'm sorry, but Apple hasn't patented that yet.
If you were on a fixed budget, which would look more attractive to you: a $199 Fire, or a $499 iPad?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69
The over 40 crowd are the true fans of Apple products. Most of the young whipper snappers never heard of Apple before the iPod.
Um, what? The under 40 crowd GREW UP with Apple products in the classroom. From the Apple II's running Oregon Trail, Number Munchers and Odell Lake, to the original Macintosh, to the IIGS, Performa series and the original iMac with hockey puck mouse, an Apple was most likely the first computer any child that went to public school after 1980 ever used.
I've read some whoppers on this site, but your statement just completely takes the taco, Das.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baka-Dubbs
If this ends up being final, then it is a huge mistake on Amazon's part. I don't find the adds obtrusive on the Kindle Touch, but thats because I spend 99% of the time in a book. The menu's only function for me is to load the next book(or occasionally purchases directly on the device). On a tablet, this would not be the case. The lockscreen advertising wouldn't bother me(I am assuming a static advertisement). Seeing adds when I am switching apps, browsing, etc makes this seem, for lack of better words, cheap.
I agree. I'm looking at one of these as a gift for a friend who is a voracious reader of dead-trees books, but that seems tacky and, as you point out, cheap. I do hope Amazon will come around on this.
Also, it just seems so odd that Bezos had such a detailed, fact-filled presentation but chose not to address this, only to have it leak out if fits and starts when everyone should be talking about how this product launch was such a game changer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by antkm1
Here's my prediction. It's going to go the way Cable TV has gone. In the next 5 years we'll see this sale strategy make it's way around the various tablet and PC companies (except for Apple).
Then it will be just generally accepted that Ads will be part of the user experience...just like cable. In the early days of cable we paid money to watch commercial-free broadcasting. That's why we paid for it. Now you pay money for what? just expanded programming, and you pay a LOT for it. That's why pirating is such a huge thing. It's easy and it's free.
Apple got it right with the iTunes store. Offer a price-point that people would be stupid not to pay, and a service that's easy as pie, and they'll go for it.
The rest of the world's strategy: we'll give you what you want, but it's going to hurt a little, and you still have to pay for it.
Another great example of the future of mobile computing (tablet or otherwise). Look at Dwell Magazine.
The first 4 years it came out, it was a 100+ page leaflet with brilliant articles and excellent photography.
Wins April 2005 National Magazine Award for General Excellence in the 100,000-to-250,000 circulation category.
Oct/Nov. 2005 issue...turned a new leaf towards ads and creates the same magazine, but with double the ads (in total a 250+ page tome) with the same amount of content as before.
Wins March 2006 Adweek 2006 Creative Team of the Year award.
Today, they reduced the issues back to the 100+ mark, but now have a better balance of ads and content. However, the content is no better than any other design magazines found in the check-out line.
PC companies have been doing this for years. It's called free trials and every non-Apple PC I've every bought is littered with it. It's why the first thing many people do when they get a computer is reinstall Windows.
So it must be that because that was your experience it must be everyone else's. Sorry to bust your bubble but most school districts can barely afford PCs let alone Apple computers.
OMG. no one here yet has got to the killer question: will Amazon track EVERYTHING you do with the Fire? not just the ads and the store, that's a given. i mean, everything else? every web page? every Facebook/social site whatever? all uploads/downloads? and more? at least there is no GPS to track ...
these questions need to be asked, and answered. if anything, Amazon's data mining philosophy is worse than Google's. they want to own your digital ass.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radjin
I wonder how much of that paid data plan the ads use?
even if it's zero, 250M a month is a joke for a 4G device. sucker bait.
bottom line, these new Amazon tablets are for the 'coupon clipper' market. the people that pick up free newspapers just for the coupons and throw the rest on the floor/sidewalk, unread. yes, there are quite a lot of them. 10-15% of the market. really, i don't think they would otherwise buy any tablet at all for themselves (except to shut up the kids), just a cheap smartphone for basic functions.
that is no threat to the iPad at all. but a does carve a substantial chunk out of the Google ecosystem's potential 'cheap crap' market.
and the Windows Surface ecosystem? oh please, don't make me laugh ... the coupon clippers wouldn't even be able to figure out how to open them up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro
Just to update everyone with the latest information. Amazon has corrected previous comments and explicitly stated that the advertisements do not offer an opt out. (1)
1. John P. Falcone. 7 September 2012. Amazon confirms: All new Kindle Fires stuck with ads. CNET. Retrieved 7 September 2012.
Thanks. Just as some of us suspected. (Hopefully, it'll shut up that Baka-Dubbs guy.)
In any event, I am surprised that there's so much commentary here about this. What Amazon is doing is perfectly understandable, and very similar to what Android is all about. Simply put, they are catering to socioeconomic segments that find non-ad-supported gadgets, games, apps, websites etc. to be too expensive. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Indeed, I laud them for it. Someone has to do it. If they make money doing it, good for them (although, I think that Amazon's valuation is a complete bubble)..
What I do find weird is how people keep comparing these cheap products to Apple. Totally different products for different market segments.
I recommend taking note of this citation. This poster seems attentive to details and demonstrates concern for accuracy.
[/end shameless plug]
This is the innovation fandroids have been gushing about.
Or a the refurbished ones from the 15% or so dropsies(guess) the coupon clipper's iPad?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro
Just to update everyone with the latest information. Amazon has corrected previous comments and explicitly stated that the advertisements do not offer an opt out. (1)
1. John P. Falcone. 7 September 2012. Amazon confirms: All new Kindle Fires stuck with ads. CNET. Retrieved 7 September 2012.
According to Ars, as of Saturday night Amazon is relenting and will remove ads from all Kindle Fires (HD or otherwise) for $15: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/09/amazon-backtracks-will-remove-ads-from-kindle-fire-for-15-fee/
Still, what a colossal clusterf*** to have this discussion steal the thunder of an otherwise (IMO) great product rollout.
Has anyone seen how much the renewal of the 250MB LTE plan is going to cost? It's clear that the $200 upcharge for the Kindle Fire 4G includes a subsidy, but until we see how much the renewal is going to cost we won't know by how much.
Definitely losing control of their message. I can understand the less expensive devices, but when you're talking even the flagship product was supposedly being ad subsidized, that was a bit much to expect.
Where do you figure that cost difference goes to ISP subsidy? Apple charges $130 for the cellular version, which gets the radios and GPS chip, and that's subsidy free. That leaves a $70 difference (maybe up that to $100 to include a profit margin on the Apple device) which doesn't really cover the difference in a year's service cost with other tablets. The cost of the data service is pretty low though, so it is good to question what the second year and overages are going to cost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram
Thanks. Just as some of us suspected. (Hopefully, it'll shut up that Baka-Dubbs guy.)
In any event, I am surprised that there's so much commentary here about this. What Amazon is doing is perfectly understandable, and very similar to what Android is all about. Simply put, they are catering to socioeconomic segments that find non-ad-supported gadgets, games, apps, websites etc. to be too expensive. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Indeed, I laud them for it. Someone has to do it. If they make money doing it, good for them (although, I think that Amazon's valuation is a complete bubble)..
What I do find weird is how people keep comparing these cheap products to Apple. Totally different products for different market segments.
Well, it looks like your suspicions were wrong, even if it was handled absolutely terribly by amazon(I know this won't shut you up). Amazon is normally pretty good about listening to their customers, so while I will say they were stupid for not having it in place from the beginning, I'll give them credit for realizing how bad of an idea it was. I know, i should provide a link, but someone already has so I think I am good on this one.
Straight from the horse's (Jeff Bezos') mouth:
Quote:
How long-term are you thinking for the Kindle?
Bezos: This one is pretty straightforward. We don’t want to lose a lot of money on the device.
Are you losing any money?
Bezos: We don’t disclose the exact bill and materials, so I can’t answer that. But we don’t want to lose a lot of money on the device because then we’d really hate it if you put it in the desk drawer. On the other hand, if you make a lot of money on the device, I believe you haven’t earned your money on it yet, and then you’ve incentivized them (the customers) to stay on the upgrade treadmill that I mentioned today.
Quote:
Is the price of the Kindle Fire HD with LTE ($499) subsidizing the data plan?
Bezos: I’m not going to break out the economics of any particular piece with you, but you’re right, it’s an astonishing price point.
How does special offers, or the advertising, play a role in the price point?
[Bezos:]We had it on our E-Ink devices, but haven’t had it on the Kindle Fire. For those, it’s very good, no one really buys the non-special-offers version. Everyone buys the special-offers version. There aren’t two versions of this (pointing to the new 7-inch Kindle Fire HD). That was a decision we made because no one is willing to buy the non-special-offers version.
http://allthingsd.com/20120906/making-money-while-keeping-prices-low-amazon-ceo-jeff-bezos-explains-it-all-mostly/
So Bezos won't say that they aren't losing money on each unit. He also won't say they're subsidizing the data plan for the LTE Kindle Fire, though we'll be able to do the math when the first 250MB/month plan renewals show up in the 2nd year or 13th month. But Bezos clearly didn't think through the "with ads" sh*tstorm that ensued.
Amazon is so cagey about the performance of their Kindle division, it's really sad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM
Amazon is so cagey about the performance of their Kindle division, it's really sad.
They'll lose money on hardware, they'll subsidize data plans, they'll lowball authors; all to corner the ebook market. And the DoJ goes after Apple?