The title isn't very promising, if we're looking to the promise of rationality and lack of hyperbole…
Looks like he knows about the industry, but he's still an outsider's perspective. He can't know what he professes to know about what Apple did, did not, is, is not, will, and will not do.
If you go back over this blog and follow my recounting of the history of Google’s attempts at developing a quality mapping service, you will notice that they initially tried to automate the entire process and failed miserably, as has Apple. Google learned that you cannot take the human out of the equation. While the mathematics of mapping appear relatively straight forward, I can assure you that if you take the informed human observer who possesses local and cartographic knowledge out of the equation that you will produce exactly what Apple has produced – A failed system.
And this seems to ignore exactly what Apple has said: needs to be in the hands of users to improve, which is exactly what they've done.
The title isn't very promising, if we're looking to the promise of rationality and lack of hyperbole…
I linked to the page so that people could read the article and the comments, not just the title. Try it. I suspect that he probably knows more about mapping than all posters on this forum combined. Maybe.
I completely agree maps isn't ready to be released. I wonder if this :
"But now we’ve heard Google’s new plan is to make these products self-sufficient. It’s begun charging high-volume users of its Maps APIs. Companies like Foursquare and Apple are balking at the price hike and looking to strategically reduce reliance on Google, so they’re switching to OpenStreetMap."
Had something to do with it being put in iOS 6 rather than a later version ? Ther are reports of apple wanting to keep the location data, which is why they snubbed google and released an unfinished maps app , but something about that doesn't really gel for me. Apple would always be able to get that information a year later , what would be the downside for them ? 90% of their profit is hardware related not ads. I find it more credible they wanted to release it later , but were forced , they are all about controlling the experience - it doesn't fit with their MO.
I completely agree maps isn't ready to be released. I wonder if this :
"But now we’ve heard Google’s new plan is to make these products self-sufficient. It’s begun charging high-volume users of its Maps APIs. Companies like Foursquare and Apple are balking at the price hike and looking to strategically reduce reliance on Google, so they’re switching to OpenStreetMap."
Had something to do with it being put in iOS 6 rather than a later version ? Ther are reports of apple wanting to keep the location data, which is why they snubbed google and released an unfinished maps app , but something about that doesn't really gel for me. Apple would always be able to get that information a year later , what would be the downside for them ? 90% of their profit is hardware related not ads.
I find it more credible they wanted to release it later , but were forced , they are all about controlling the experience - it doesn't fit with their MO.
That's a possibility. They did change iPhoto over to Open Street Maps back in March of this year which always struck me as an odd choice. I guess it does a little bit more photogenic than Google's offering but only do it in March of this year and why when you had your own mapping software in the works. It just seems odd to have just the gun here.
On another note, I sure hope Apple offers a web-based version of their Maps app that can be seen on Macs/PCs or by others with a different device. Currently, you can send your location to someone from an iDevice and despite the link they get is addressed to maps.apple.com/... it will open in Google Maps. I can't imagine that this would be Apple's longterm plan, but like most things they do they start small and then build around it well. I guess we'll see in the coming months/years.
You are still incorrect. Billions of people didn't use Google Street View prior to 2007. Billions of people today don't use Google Street View.
Any reasonable person would notice the emphasis on "good enough." I further noted that no one has provided any usage statistics for Google Street View especially within the iPhone Maps app except for the article by Matt McGee which I referenced. Apple Maps is, right now, today, "good enough."Millions of people have already upgraded to iOS 6 and millions more people are in line outside Apple Retail Stores and carrier stores to purchase the iPhone 5.
Here is what I said:
Maps based on Apple technology rather than Google technology does not need to be as good as Google based Maps. Maps simply needs to be"good enough" although the solution will far surpass that standard.
"Maps simply needs to be "good enough" although the solution will far surpass that standard." - MacBook Pro
If Apple simply added Siri integration and a few features from Waze to the current features most users would likely be highly satisfied.
Accoring to Jessica E. Vascellaro and Amir Errata of the Wall Street Journal, Maps is used by more than 90% of U.S. iPhone users (although no data source is provided) which virtually guarantees success for any new version of Maps with relatively comparable features to the current version
iOS 6 Maps currently provides:
* 2D Mercator-variant projection with (at higher zoom levels) and without 3D projection with approximately 20 zoom levels of the entire (readily-navigable globe)
* 2D aerial and satellite imagery of the entire globe (Space Oblique Mercator projection)
* 3D aerial and satellite imagery superimposed on a digital elevation model providing a 360-degree panoramic overhead oblique view including a low level "bird's eye view" (Space Oblique Mercator-variant projection)
Every projection misrepresents the surface of the Earth in some way. Since all projections can show one or more but not all of the following; the greater the number of projections the greater the ability of the user to discern their location (although larger numbers of projections become increasingly confusing at an exponential rate); true direction, true distance, true areas, true shape.
Dead reckoning is a wholly unreliable method given that the average global positioning system (GPS) user is not trained in the technique. For the purposes of modern living, satellite navigation is vastly superior and additionally methods to supplement the model only increase navigation accuracy. Furthermore, given the limitations of 360-degree panoramic "street level" views of the entire surface of the planet which is entirely impractical versus aerial and satellite photography the superiority of the later becomes manifest.
I further submit that Apple has intentionally decided to not include multimodal navigation (e.g. pedestrian and public transportation routes) to appease otherwise upset partners who previously provided a navigation service for Apple products that many users may determine is no longer necessary. Such reasoning could apply to street level views as well as other expected high-end features and functions.
A well integrated street view would be nice but I suggest that the best method for Apple to develop such a database is to rely upon users. If Apple were to implement the hidden panoramic mode in iPhone 4S and higher, users themselves could photograph points of interest and with the exif and GPS metadata submitted to Apple along with imagery where such is "missing."
I do not have an issue with the "missing" street level view. In my opinion, the combination of an bird's eye view (overhead oblique angular view) with the static images from Yelpcompensates for the loss. The addition of 3D Flyover Mode makes the resulting application superior.
I suspect an enterprising developer could even provide, dare we say it, a street level view app. Although iOS 6 Maps doesn't need a street level view.
Apple has already hit 80% of the targetsand provides new functionality as well. The current beta implementation of Maps does enough to convert most people to Maps happily. Frankly, given that Maps is the default mapping and navigation app and is integrated with Siri the ease-of-use will likely be the key feature that wins over most users.
The great thing about Yelp is that you can check a destination to make sure it's correct before you go there or get info without going there. It's a huge benefit.
"Apple Maps is arguably already superior to Google Maps for iOS despite the Beta designation." While the loss of Google Street View may impact some users, I have never seen Google Street View user base numbers or user satisfaction data.
I find it interesting that we can list a multitude of ways that Apple Maps in iOS 6 Beta 4 is superior to Google Maps in iOS 5 while Google Maps proponents continue to focus on their sole argument of superiority, a feature which 50% of a tech savvy subset of users (Twitter followers of a tech blogger) were unaware existed on the iPhone. To further clarify, technology pundit, Matt McGee, of Search Engine Land posted the report, Irony: You Need A Map To Find Google Street View On The iPhone. McGee states that, "I asked on Twitter, and got a 50/50 split on replies: half knew how to access Street View, and half didn’t know it was there." This is, presumably, a technology savvy group considering they are "following" a technology pundit yet half were unaware of Google Street View in iPhone Maps.
That's a possibility. They did change iPhoto over to Open Street Maps back in March of this year which always struck me as an odd choice. I guess it does a little bit more photogenic than Google's offering but only do it in March of this year and why when you had your own mapping software in the works. It just seems odd to have just the gun here.
On another note, I sure hope Apple offers a web-based version of their Maps app that can be seen on Macs/PCs or by others with a different device. Currently, you can send your location to someone from an iDevice and despite the link they get is addressed to maps.apple.com/... it will open in Google Maps. I can't imagine that this would be Apple's longterm plan, but like most things they do they start small and then build around it well. I guess we'll see in the coming months/years.
yes it is strange, i think it could have gone something like this. :
2009 - apple started looking outside google for their maps after google refused turn by turn for ios http://goo.gl/Y9hQG
2012 march - apple jumps to Openstreetmaps because imaps are in such bad shape still,
2012 september - apple launches unfinished imaps to avoid at the price hike.
i don't think they are that worried about losing the location data, as hardware revenue is 90% income. They are worried about privacy, and I wonder if google wanted all the location data for a new maps licence (to tie them over until imaps was ready), google wouldn't agree to a 1 year deal without location data ? or something like that in reference to the wsj article.
i think they'll port maps over to a web based version once their maps are more together (ie a couple of years at least)
their panic in getting maps up and running could also point to the lack of new features in ios6 ?
Please note that Tallest Skil, one of the global moderators on this forum website, has banned one of the forum participants 'Ray Bart', from taking part on the forums because Ray called some others 'mice' (and because Tallest Skil is jealous of Ray Bart being a substantial shareholder of Apple while Tallest Skil could only dream of having the same). Tallest Skil is a COWARD with his self proclaimed 'global moderator' title but he isn't a mouse, in fact Tallest Skil he is a RAT.
Isn't it obvious that Apple has hired the Langoliers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Langoliers to clean up unused data - and somehow they slipped through from the past to the present.
It's not fair to cherry pick results as an argument to say all results or bad or we could do the same with Google Maps and every other mapping software. If they will ever be perfect I doubt it will be in my lifetime.
That said, this image does concern me because of all the things I would have thought Apple would make sure was highly detailed for an initial September launch — and even well above Google's cartographic efforts — are college campuses.
It's very obvious that Apple spent time and energy to work on the US dataset and neglected the rest of the World.
Here is a good example, down town San Francisco clearly has building outlines and business information. The second image is Central in Hong Kong via Apples Maps showing one of the most dense areas of the city littered with bars, cafe's, businesses yet it shows absolutely nothing on the new maps app (Google Map shown for comparison). This is depressing. Apple needs to realise that maps are just as important for people in the rest of the world. Maybe the Apple executives need to travel more outside the US to gain a bigger picture of how dire the situation is.
Here is a good example, down town San Francisco clearly has building outlines and business information. The second image is Central in Hong Kong, one of the most dense areas of the city littered with bars, cafe's, businesses yet it shows absolutely nothing on the new maps app. This is depressing. Apple needs to realise that maps are just as important for people in the rest of the world. Maybe the Apple executives need to travel more outside the US.
Your implication that this isn't the case is really shortsighted. You'll notice that Google did the same when they launched their maps. I'm sure that a Hong Kong-based mapping company would focus on, you know, Hong Kong first.
<p style="margin:0pt;padding:0pt;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;line-height:normal;">It's very obvious that Apple spent time and energy to work on the US dataset and neglected the rest of the World.</p>
<p style="margin:0pt;padding:0pt;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;line-height:normal;">Here is a good example, down town San Francisco clearly has building outlines and business information. The second image is Central in Hong Kong, one of the most dense areas of the city littered with bars, cafe's, businesses yet it shows absolutely nothing on the new maps app. This is depressing. Apple needs to realise that maps are just as important for people in the rest of the world. Maybe the Apple executives need to travel more outside the US.</p>
Actually, it is more likely that the OpenStreetMap project is more organized and productive in SF than HK. It's not an American arrogance issue, since there are other countries wo appear to be happier with Apple's efforts because the OpenStreetMap project is much further ahead in their countries.
I was watching The Verge podcast and the crew member was explaining that Apple Maps is still reliable, but Google Maps has a ton of data to comply with. However, Apple Maps will be a better source over a period of time. Apple have been working on Maps for about 5 years or so and it should have a much more compatible data package in tact upon iOS 6 release.
I've seen a little more accurate routing from Apple Maps than I did will Google Maps. I think it's a good first attempt, and the public transit is the only area it's really lacking. I think we'll see big improvements before too long.
My original maps tirade thread went completely unnoticed. Perhaps I posted it too early after the iOS 6 release. Anyway, here is my rant from that other thread (which got no replies).
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler
Wow. The new map app is horrible, possibly the worst map display I've seen in years.
Streets and street names are rendered in a manner that doesn't lend itself to easy scanning and comprehension. But seriously, the visual style makes it incredibly hard to use. It looks like a random bunch of words on a biege background. There is no visual coherence whatsoever.
On top of that, there is no street view and no public transit. No longer is it possible to see a picture of where i'm going.
It's almost bad enough to make me want to switch back to iOS5. Maps is one of the few apps I use on regular basis and this is a massive downgrade.
Am I being too harsh? Or is it really that horrible?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler
With a bit more use, i'm beginning to be able to better verbalize one of the problems.
Streets are rendered with so little contrast (gray on beige) that they are barely visible. Instead, street names are rendered with much more contrast (black on beige). This makes it nearly impossible to visually scan the screen and gain a quick understanding of the street grid.
People that are visually and spatially oriented are not well served by the new look of the maps. The new maps makes the rendering of streets a secondary function. Display of street names is now the primary function.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler
The visual indicator for one way streets is now almost invisible. At first I thought their database was wrong. But no, holding the phone a few inches from my head I was finally able to confirm that light blue arrows do exist to indicate one way streets. However they are light blue in a sea of beige and about the size of a fraction of a single letter of the street name. It is absolutely astounding that this got through Apple's quality control. Did the user tests not include one way streets?
Also, buildings are no longer drawn at all. Yep, one more visual cue that was removed.
Best yet... most streets are now completely unlabeled. It is necessary to zoom in ludicrously far for the names to be displayed. This is likely because some randomly chosen streets are labeled with too large of text in the normal zoom levels. There is no space left to include all the street names.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler
Gizmodo has a nice photo to illustrate some of these problems:
Should You Keep Your Old iPhone on iOS 5 for Google Maps?
Comments
Originally Posted by KiltedGreen
This reads like reasonable and constructive criticism of this situation by someone who knows what they are talking about.
http://blog.telemapics.com/?p=399
The title isn't very promising, if we're looking to the promise of rationality and lack of hyperbole…
Looks like he knows about the industry, but he's still an outsider's perspective. He can't know what he professes to know about what Apple did, did not, is, is not, will, and will not do.
If you go back over this blog and follow my recounting of the history of Google’s attempts at developing a quality mapping service, you will notice that they initially tried to automate the entire process and failed miserably, as has Apple. Google learned that you cannot take the human out of the equation. While the mathematics of mapping appear relatively straight forward, I can assure you that if you take the informed human observer who possesses local and cartographic knowledge out of the equation that you will produce exactly what Apple has produced – A failed system.
And this seems to ignore exactly what Apple has said: needs to be in the hands of users to improve, which is exactly what they've done.
I linked to the page so that people could read the article and the comments, not just the title. Try it. I suspect that he probably knows more about mapping than all posters on this forum combined. Maybe.
"But now we’ve heard Google’s new plan is to make these products self-sufficient. It’s begun charging high-volume users of its Maps APIs. Companies like Foursquare and Apple are balking at the price hike and looking to strategically reduce reliance on Google, so they’re switching to OpenStreetMap."
Had something to do with it being put in iOS 6 rather than a later version ? Ther are reports of apple wanting to keep the location data, which is why they snubbed google and released an unfinished maps app , but something about that doesn't really gel for me. Apple would always be able to get that information a year later , what would be the downside for them ? 90% of their profit is hardware related not ads.
I find it more credible they wanted to release it later , but were forced , they are all about controlling the experience - it doesn't fit with their MO.
• http://blog.osmfoundation.org/2012/03/08/welcome-apple/
That's a possibility. They did change iPhoto over to Open Street Maps back in March of this year which always struck me as an odd choice. I guess it does a little bit more photogenic than Google's offering but only do it in March of this year and why when you had your own mapping software in the works. It just seems odd to have just the gun here.
On another note, I sure hope Apple offers a web-based version of their Maps app that can be seen on Macs/PCs or by others with a different device. Currently, you can send your location to someone from an iDevice and despite the link they get is addressed to maps.apple.com/... it will open in Google Maps. I can't imagine that this would be Apple's longterm plan, but like most things they do they start small and then build around it well. I guess we'll see in the coming months/years.
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
• http://blog.osmfoundation.org/2012/03/08/welcome-apple/
All right, then I don't understand at all why they haven't just used OSM' maps 1:1 with what's online.
I find a lot of what they are doing with maps to be a head scratcher.
No surprise there. You seem to be very myopic regarding Apple Maps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
• http://blog.osmfoundation.org/2012/03/08/welcome-apple/
That's a possibility. They did change iPhoto over to Open Street Maps back in March of this year which always struck me as an odd choice. I guess it does a little bit more photogenic than Google's offering but only do it in March of this year and why when you had your own mapping software in the works. It just seems odd to have just the gun here.
On another note, I sure hope Apple offers a web-based version of their Maps app that can be seen on Macs/PCs or by others with a different device. Currently, you can send your location to someone from an iDevice and despite the link they get is addressed to maps.apple.com/... it will open in Google Maps. I can't imagine that this would be Apple's longterm plan, but like most things they do they start small and then build around it well. I guess we'll see in the coming months/years.
yes it is strange, i think it could have gone something like this. :
2009 - apple started looking outside google for their maps after google refused turn by turn for ios http://goo.gl/Y9hQG
2012 - google starts charging for it's map data http://goo.gl/fx0a5 ( charging anyone pulling over 25,000 page loads a day $4, $8, or $10 per additional 1,000 loads,)
2012 march - apple jumps to Openstreetmaps because imaps are in such bad shape still,
2012 september - apple launches unfinished imaps to avoid at the price hike.
i don't think they are that worried about losing the location data, as hardware revenue is 90% income. They are worried about privacy, and I wonder if google wanted all the location data for a new maps licence (to tie them over until imaps was ready), google wouldn't agree to a 1 year deal without location data ? or something like that in reference to the wsj article.
i think they'll port maps over to a web based version once their maps are more together (ie a couple of years at least)
their panic in getting maps up and running could also point to the lack of new features in ios6 ?
Ladies and Gentleman of AI Forums,
Please note that Tallest Skil, one of the global moderators on this forum website, has banned one of the forum participants 'Ray Bart', from taking part on the forums because Ray called some others 'mice' (and because Tallest Skil is jealous of Ray Bart being a substantial shareholder of Apple while Tallest Skil could only dream of having the same). Tallest Skil is a COWARD with his self proclaimed 'global moderator' title but he isn't a mouse, in fact Tallest Skil he is a RAT.
Ray Bart is great!
Sincerely yours
The Ray Bart fan club.
Dear Ray Bart,
It wasn't me, you dope. Though it would have been, as you don't seem to understand the concept of rules.
Sincerely,
Stop being a deranged psychopath. We already have four of those here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s
Like this:
Isn't it obvious that Apple has hired the Langoliers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Langoliers to clean up unused data - and somehow they slipped through from the past to the present.
It's not fair to cherry pick results as an argument to say all results or bad or we could do the same with Google Maps and every other mapping software. If they will ever be perfect I doubt it will be in my lifetime.
That said, this image does concern me because of all the things I would have thought Apple would make sure was highly detailed for an initial September launch — and even well above Google's cartographic efforts — are college campuses.
It's very obvious that Apple spent time and energy to work on the US dataset and neglected the rest of the World.
Here is a good example, down town San Francisco clearly has building outlines and business information. The second image is Central in Hong Kong via Apples Maps showing one of the most dense areas of the city littered with bars, cafe's, businesses yet it shows absolutely nothing on the new maps app (Google Map shown for comparison). This is depressing. Apple needs to realise that maps are just as important for people in the rest of the world. Maybe the Apple executives need to travel more outside the US to gain a bigger picture of how dire the situation is.
Originally Posted by simtub
Here is a good example, down town San Francisco clearly has building outlines and business information. The second image is Central in Hong Kong, one of the most dense areas of the city littered with bars, cafe's, businesses yet it shows absolutely nothing on the new maps app. This is depressing. Apple needs to realise that maps are just as important for people in the rest of the world. Maybe the Apple executives need to travel more outside the US.
Your implication that this isn't the case is really shortsighted. You'll notice that Google did the same when they launched their maps. I'm sure that a Hong Kong-based mapping company would focus on, you know, Hong Kong first.
Actually, it is more likely that the OpenStreetMap project is more organized and productive in SF than HK. It's not an American arrogance issue, since there are other countries wo appear to be happier with Apple's efforts because the OpenStreetMap project is much further ahead in their countries.
that san andreas fault is a bitch....
I was watching The Verge podcast and the crew member was explaining that Apple Maps is still reliable, but Google Maps has a ton of data to comply with. However, Apple Maps will be a better source over a period of time. Apple have been working on Maps for about 5 years or so and it should have a much more compatible data package in tact upon iOS 6 release.
I've seen a little more accurate routing from Apple Maps than I did will Google Maps. I think it's a good first attempt, and the public transit is the only area it's really lacking. I think we'll see big improvements before too long.
My original maps tirade thread went completely unnoticed. Perhaps I posted it too early after the iOS 6 release. Anyway, here is my rant from that other thread (which got no replies).
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler
Wow. The new map app is horrible, possibly the worst map display I've seen in years.
Streets and street names are rendered in a manner that doesn't lend itself to easy scanning and comprehension. But seriously, the visual style makes it incredibly hard to use. It looks like a random bunch of words on a biege background. There is no visual coherence whatsoever.
On top of that, there is no street view and no public transit. No longer is it possible to see a picture of where i'm going.
It's almost bad enough to make me want to switch back to iOS5. Maps is one of the few apps I use on regular basis and this is a massive downgrade.
Am I being too harsh? Or is it really that horrible?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler
With a bit more use, i'm beginning to be able to better verbalize one of the problems.
Streets are rendered with so little contrast (gray on beige) that they are barely visible. Instead, street names are rendered with much more contrast (black on beige). This makes it nearly impossible to visually scan the screen and gain a quick understanding of the street grid.
People that are visually and spatially oriented are not well served by the new look of the maps. The new maps makes the rendering of streets a secondary function. Display of street names is now the primary function.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler
The visual indicator for one way streets is now almost invisible. At first I thought their database was wrong. But no, holding the phone a few inches from my head I was finally able to confirm that light blue arrows do exist to indicate one way streets. However they are light blue in a sea of beige and about the size of a fraction of a single letter of the street name. It is absolutely astounding that this got through Apple's quality control. Did the user tests not include one way streets?
Also, buildings are no longer drawn at all. Yep, one more visual cue that was removed.
Best yet... most streets are now completely unlabeled. It is necessary to zoom in ludicrously far for the names to be displayed. This is likely because some randomly chosen streets are labeled with too large of text in the normal zoom levels. There is no space left to include all the street names.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler
Gizmodo has a nice photo to illustrate some of these problems:
Should You Keep Your Old iPhone on iOS 5 for Google Maps?
http://gizmodo.com/5944437/should-you-keep-your-old-iphone-on-ios-5-for-google-maps