Just because people in Europe are looking for bargain basement technology so that they can continue to afford European-produced luxury cars and artisanal food in the face of economic downturn doesn't mean that Apple should change the quality of products they produce. Should Mercedes Benz try to compete with GM or Ford for North American market share?
One thing is certain,
if Apple release an 5inch iPhone X, with those sharp 1080p displays at 440ppi, they would have twice the demand they are facing now.
the other thing that is al certain,
Apple cannot keep with the current demand. Imagine how many sales they lose because of it...
While this sounds like great news, 62% of sales in the US market went to existing customers. If Apple's model is to grow the user base so that more "Apps" will be bought and more Apple tethered revenue streams are exploited, the 62% repurchase rate is alarming. While it shows consumer loyalty, Apple only makes part of its profit on the phone. The rest is on purchases on the App store or from iTunes. They need more new customers, not the same customers throwing their old phones away and buy an new model. Those people don't purchase new apps.
And I wonder why, since that's the only big reason that makes people buy highend Android phones instead of the iPhone (they lose on everything else). Android itself offers nothing to the vast majority of users.
if Apple release an 5inch iPhone X, with those sharp 1080p displays at 440ppi, they would have twice the demand they are facing now.
the other thing that is al certain,
Apple cannot keep with the current demand. Imagine how many sales they lose because of it...
It has nothing to do with phone size, it's all about what's on the price tag.
Every market share leader in every mass market product category in the world is the one who prices their products the lowest, bar none. However, the market share leader isn't always the profit leader, and is very rarely the product quality leader. Investors care about the profit leader, and enthusiasts care about the quality leader. Everyone else is just looking at numbers.
I had forgotten... Apple doesn't care about sales.
The damn thing about this is that for every Android phone sold an iPhone is not sold and in parts of Europe it looks like Apple is approaching zero sales. Do you really think that Tim Cook doesn't give a shit about this.
Apple cares about Europe and knows that penetration in China will dwarf all possible penetration of sales in Europe.
While this sounds like great news, 62% of sales in the US market went to existing customers. If Apple's model is to grow the user base so that more "Apps" will be bought and more Apple tethered revenue streams are exploited, the 62% repurchase rate is alarming. While it shows consumer loyalty, Apple only makes part of its profit on the phone. The rest is on purchases on the App store or from iTunes. They need more new customers, not the same customers throwing their old phones away and buy an new model. Those people don't purchase new apps.
38% are new customers equates to at least triple what anyone would expect. That will mainly be due to more carrier options.
if Apple release an 5inch iPhone X, with those sharp 1080p displays at 440ppi, they would have twice the demand they are facing now.
I doubt that gravely.
There is a time I would have thought this with 100% certainty. However now, the 4" transition is starting to feel definitely as though it falls in the "Me too" category.
I can understand why some people might like a 16:9 larger screen. But I personally can't stand it. Despite Apple's claims, it is harder to operate with a single hand, and I have big hands, as my thumb can't access the entire screen without awkwardly shifting my hand position. A petite girlfriend of mine used to be able to operate her iPhone with one hand, but now needs to use both (and surprisingly doesn't seem to care). And viewing pictures just looks weird.
My own philosophy about phones, smart or otherwise, is that they should be as small and portable as practical. The original iPhone form factor I felt hit this mark perfectly, and what happens? As soon as they are making it thinner, lighter, and smaller so as to fit even more easily into my jeans pocket, they go and make it significantly longer. And to me, this seems to be exactly the marketing approach Android took to distinguish itself from the iPhone -- "the iPhone's screen is too small to use it effectively, and android has recognized this and made a superior larger phone for the customer's ease of use", despite the fact it is much less portable and therefore practical. Which of course led to an explosion of people using these ridiculously oversized phones anyway, looking more like mini tablets, the use of which has been largely derided on this forum. Now Apple makes a larger form factor, and it is enthusiastically embraced. Again, I can see the appeal for some, but I honestly can never remember reading anything about iPhone customers wishing they had a larger screen. So to me, this seems like Apple looking at the Android larger form factor selling trends and attempting a compromise to eat into Google's market share.
So very surprised to read that the larger screen is a major selling point to customers. To some yes, but to most ...? It's hard to believe I'm the only one that feels this way ...
My only hope is that Apple continues to sell the smaller iPhone 4S form factor after the two year depreciation window, and that they will continue to develop it, making it smaller and lighter over time. Sort of an iPhone and iPhone mini, which is essentially what they have now. It would certainly be a great way to distinguish the top of the line iPhone and justify the price points. I guess only time will tell.
I think it is going to be difficult for apple to compete with such a variety of different handset form factors that other manufacturers seem to be producing. Just because you may believe that the iPhone 4 / 4S / 5 is the ideal phone for you doesn't mean everyone will. Just in the same way that I don't think I would want a 5.5 inch phone like the Galaxy Note 2 etc. but for a few million it obviously meets their needs.
Either Apple will have to consider introducing a few different form factors - an iPhone mini or iPhone max perhaps - or I don't see how Apple can continue to command worldwide market share as in many ways we are reaching a point of feature parity with the operating systems etc.
Oh and can we stop with the jingoistic nonsense that those of us living in Europe are somehow living in caves and therefore are only buying android phones out of ignorance or financial necessity. Not everyone will want the same thing from a phone - get over it.
Oh and can we stop with the jingoistic nonsense that those of us living in Europe are somehow living in caves and therefore are only buying android phones out of ignorance or financial necessity. Not everyone will want the same thing from a phone - get over it.
It was a joke because, historically, many Europeans love to rub in the fact that their brands are higher quality than North American brands (and slam us for being ignorant consumers). Which, honestly, I do agree that many are (food especially). But now that things are reversed...
As for phone size, I'd like to see research showing how many cases there are where that is the deciding factor in a purchase. I'd be willing to wager that cost outweighs size by a large margin. The guise of "open" vs "closed" technology also seems to be a heavy factor in some parts of Europe in my experience.
I think it is going to be difficult for apple to compete with such a variety of different handset form factors that other manufacturers seem to be producing. Just because you may believe that the iPhone 4 / 4S / 5 is the ideal phone for you doesn't mean everyone will.
Agreed, Apple doesn't need to compete with the variety of the Android phones ... The 5 seems to be a compromise, and by its sales figures, a good one. Unless this Android trend of using sub-mini tablets as phones, I would expect Apple to stick with this size.
But realistically, the larger Android phones are just that, LARGER, more screen real estate and generally bigger so the phone can be held more comfortably from the eyes. The extra height, or width, on the iPhone 5 is negligible. The resolution is the same, and that little bit extra on the edge doesn't improve MY ability to use the phone, much of which is wasted space. I suppose people watching movies or playing games on their iPhones will love this, but for everything else, I just don't see the trade off. The Retina display is the single greatest improvement to the iPhone, or any small mobile device for that matter. These are the kinds of things that improve use, not marginal screen increases.
But you are right, just because it doesn't appeal to me, doesn't mean it won't to others, and I said as much above. I just don't get it. Mobile phones should be moving in the opposite direction, getting smaller and lighter, not larger and more power hungry. Give me an iPhone not much larger than the original screen. It won't be any less usable and a heck of a lot more mobile. Am I the only person who wants this?
All this crap talk about Europeans and people seem to forget about one particular detail: we don't have subsidized iPhones in many places here, Apple isn't willing to walk the extra step to work with carriers, and carriers don't care enough because most people here prefer prepaid services. As I write this, I'm still waiting for tethering support on the iPad. I've instructed my carrier (Vodafone) on the exact steps that they must take in order to enable it, but from what I'm told, they can't update the profiles to a version that supports the iPad (12.1) without Apple.
Vodafone Australia iPads have tethering enabled, for the new (4G that is not 4G) iPad and the newer "retina" iPad.
1) Europe is as a continent about as rich as the US. Western Europe in particular. 2) losing the market in Europe would be a major strategic error, as was the loss of marketshare during the 90's. iOS is a platform not just a device. 3) the reason Apple does so well in the US is the higher carrier subsidy which makes an iPhone the equivalent price with contract as any android device. In Europe the iPhone 5 is more expensive than the SIII. Other reasons - Siri was no use in Europe for a whole year. Where am I? Sorry, I can only do maps or anything vaguely useful in the US and in US English. 4) if they don't get a large market share in Europe they won't in China. 5) I can't see Apple selling just 1 phone a year for the rest of its time as a phone manufacturer. It doesn't need too many models, maybe maximum 3. 6) an obvious low end model would be the iPod touch form factor with a sim. Hardly a reduction in "build quality". 7) there's a chance to gain back Android users as there is less of a software lockdown on phones compared to pcs. So still a chance. I can see Apple at 30-35% market share but they need more models and one cheap one.
That said: Its better to be big in America than Big in Japan. Or Europe. Silicon Valley venture capital will flow to what it knows. From that base Apple can retake Europes. Its like Normandy all over again.
1. Apple needs to provide lower cost options! Wrong. Instead, Apple is balancing supply and demand. If they can't produce it fast enough, then why in the hell would they lower the price? Maybe when they can produce more/faster at the high quality requirements, they will think of lowering price.
2. Apple doesn't care about market share! Wrong. Of course they care about market share especially when it comes to strategic objectives of critical mass to a specific platform. The iOS platform is a very important platform in which to sell hardware and to maintain addiction to its ecosystem. iOS is kicking ass in almost every major market. Halo effect of iOS is definitely a valuable growth engine for Mac (OSX). Europe is still a blip on the radar. Important, but still only a blip (at this time).
3. Apple should provide ALL form factors from small to big and cheap to expensive! Wrong. Again, look at #1 and #2 above. Apple will present new form factors (like the iPad Mini) only when supply/demand issues can be resolved AND when market share concerns arise. A certain amount of "loss" of market share is strategic in order to maintain cost efficiencies (in both COGS and R&D)...fortunately, Apple can absorb this "loss" by managing the game clock, then offer new form factors and price points when the time is right.
I'm one of those who thinks that a smaller form factor iPhone is inevitable. It will have functional handicaps, thereby reducing data use...therefore, carriers can offer them at a VERY low cost (i.e. almost no upfront cost and with reasonable data plans).
Here's to making this board a more sane, tolerant, and enjoyable forum.
Three models, all updated every year, not last years stuff. If Apple ran their mac line like that there would be one model, a Mac Pro - no mini, or mac book - and you can have this year's model, or last years, or the model of the year before, and that would be it.
Three models, all updated every year, not last years stuff.
All three models are updated every year. The free model gets better, the $99 model gets better, and the $199 model gets better.
If Apple ran their mac line like that there would be one model, a Mac Pro - no mini, or mac book - and you can have this year's model, or last years, or the model of the year before, and that would be it.
Your point being what? You obviously know that Apple is doing this wrong, because they're getting 75% of all the profits in the ENTIRE PHONE INDUSTRY. Yeah, you know exactly what they're doing wrong. My STARS, man! You're whining about problems with Apple when its the European telecoms that are the problem!
We are talking longer term, not just the iPhone 5.
2. Apple doesn't care about market share! Wrong. Of course they care about market share especially when it comes to strategic objectives of critical mass to a specific platform. The iOS platform is a very important platform in which to sell hardware and to maintain addiction to its ecosystem. iOS is kicking ass in almost every major market. Halo effect of iOS is definitely a valuable growth engine for Mac (OSX). Europe is still a blip on the radar. Important, but still only a blip (at this time).
3. Apple should provide ALL form factors from small to big and cheap to expensive! Wrong. Again, look at #1 and #2 above. Apple will present new form factors (like the iPad Mini) only when supply/demand issues can be resolved AND when market share concerns arise. A certain amount of "loss" of market share is strategic in order to maintain cost efficiencies (in both COGS and R&D)...fortunately, Apple can absorb this "loss" by managing the game clock, then offer new form factors and price points when the time is right.
I'm one of those who thinks that a smaller form factor iPhone is inevitable. It will have functional handicaps, thereby reducing data use...therefore, carriers can offer them at a VERY low cost (i.e. almost no upfront cost and with reasonable data plans).
Here's to making this board a more sane, tolerant, and enjoyable forum.
I dont think there will be a smaller form factor, lighter maybe, a la the iPod touch. I take your point on the demand constraints but I am talking longer term, and in any case with 3 releases a year - in my preferred scenario - any one release will not be so big as to cause supply constraints.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by auxio
Just because people in Europe are looking for bargain basement technology so that they can continue to afford European-produced luxury cars and artisanal food in the face of economic downturn doesn't mean that Apple should change the quality of products they produce. Should Mercedes Benz try to compete with GM or Ford for North American market share?
One thing is certain,
if Apple release an 5inch iPhone X, with those sharp 1080p displays at 440ppi, they would have twice the demand they are facing now.
the other thing that is al certain,
Apple cannot keep with the current demand. Imagine how many sales they lose because of it...
Originally Posted by pedromartins
if Apple release an 5inch iPhone X, with those sharp 1080p displays at 440ppi, they would have twice the demand they are facing now.
I doubt that gravely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
I doubt that gravely.
And I wonder why, since that's the only big reason that makes people buy highend Android phones instead of the iPhone (they lose on everything else). Android itself offers nothing to the vast majority of users.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pedromartins
One thing is certain,
if Apple release an 5inch iPhone X, with those sharp 1080p displays at 440ppi, they would have twice the demand they are facing now.
the other thing that is al certain,
Apple cannot keep with the current demand. Imagine how many sales they lose because of it...
It has nothing to do with phone size, it's all about what's on the price tag.
Every market share leader in every mass market product category in the world is the one who prices their products the lowest, bar none. However, the market share leader isn't always the profit leader, and is very rarely the product quality leader. Investors care about the profit leader, and enthusiasts care about the quality leader. Everyone else is just looking at numbers.
Apple cares about Europe and knows that penetration in China will dwarf all possible penetration of sales in Europe.
I think the question should be: if an Android phone were to cost $700, how many people would buy them? Will it increase iPhone sales numbers?
38% are new customers equates to at least triple what anyone would expect. That will mainly be due to more carrier options.
I can understand why some people might like a 16:9 larger screen. But I personally can't stand it. Despite Apple's claims, it is harder to operate with a single hand, and I have big hands, as my thumb can't access the entire screen without awkwardly shifting my hand position. A petite girlfriend of mine used to be able to operate her iPhone with one hand, but now needs to use both (and surprisingly doesn't seem to care). And viewing pictures just looks weird.
My own philosophy about phones, smart or otherwise, is that they should be as small and portable as practical. The original iPhone form factor I felt hit this mark perfectly, and what happens? As soon as they are making it thinner, lighter, and smaller so as to fit even more easily into my jeans pocket, they go and make it significantly longer. And to me, this seems to be exactly the marketing approach Android took to distinguish itself from the iPhone -- "the iPhone's screen is too small to use it effectively, and android has recognized this and made a superior larger phone for the customer's ease of use", despite the fact it is much less portable and therefore practical. Which of course led to an explosion of people using these ridiculously oversized phones anyway, looking more like mini tablets, the use of which has been largely derided on this forum. Now Apple makes a larger form factor, and it is enthusiastically embraced. Again, I can see the appeal for some, but I honestly can never remember reading anything about iPhone customers wishing they had a larger screen. So to me, this seems like Apple looking at the Android larger form factor selling trends and attempting a compromise to eat into Google's market share.
So very surprised to read that the larger screen is a major selling point to customers. To some yes, but to most ...? It's hard to believe I'm the only one that feels this way ...
My only hope is that Apple continues to sell the smaller iPhone 4S form factor after the two year depreciation window, and that they will continue to develop it, making it smaller and lighter over time. Sort of an iPhone and iPhone mini, which is essentially what they have now. It would certainly be a great way to distinguish the top of the line iPhone and justify the price points. I guess only time will tell.
I think it is going to be difficult for apple to compete with such a variety of different handset form factors that other manufacturers seem to be producing. Just because you may believe that the iPhone 4 / 4S / 5 is the ideal phone for you doesn't mean everyone will. Just in the same way that I don't think I would want a 5.5 inch phone like the Galaxy Note 2 etc. but for a few million it obviously meets their needs.
Either Apple will have to consider introducing a few different form factors - an iPhone mini or iPhone max perhaps - or I don't see how Apple can continue to command worldwide market share as in many ways we are reaching a point of feature parity with the operating systems etc.
Oh and can we stop with the jingoistic nonsense that those of us living in Europe are somehow living in caves and therefore are only buying android phones out of ignorance or financial necessity. Not everyone will want the same thing from a phone - get over it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Mac Man
Oh and can we stop with the jingoistic nonsense that those of us living in Europe are somehow living in caves and therefore are only buying android phones out of ignorance or financial necessity. Not everyone will want the same thing from a phone - get over it.
As for phone size, I'd like to see research showing how many cases there are where that is the deciding factor in a purchase. I'd be willing to wager that cost outweighs size by a large margin. The guise of "open" vs "closed" technology also seems to be a heavy factor in some parts of Europe in my experience.
But realistically, the larger Android phones are just that, LARGER, more screen real estate and generally bigger so the phone can be held more comfortably from the eyes. The extra height, or width, on the iPhone 5 is negligible. The resolution is the same, and that little bit extra on the edge doesn't improve MY ability to use the phone, much of which is wasted space. I suppose people watching movies or playing games on their iPhones will love this, but for everything else, I just don't see the trade off. The Retina display is the single greatest improvement to the iPhone, or any small mobile device for that matter. These are the kinds of things that improve use, not marginal screen increases.
But you are right, just because it doesn't appeal to me, doesn't mean it won't to others, and I said as much above. I just don't get it. Mobile phones should be moving in the opposite direction, getting smaller and lighter, not larger and more power hungry. Give me an iPhone not much larger than the original screen. It won't be any less usable and a heck of a lot more mobile. Am I the only person who wants this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian
All this crap talk about Europeans and people seem to forget about one particular detail: we don't have subsidized iPhones in many places here, Apple isn't willing to walk the extra step to work with carriers, and carriers don't care enough because most people here prefer prepaid services. As I write this, I'm still waiting for tethering support on the iPad. I've instructed my carrier (Vodafone) on the exact steps that they must take in order to enable it, but from what I'm told, they can't update the profiles to a version that supports the iPad (12.1) without Apple.
Vodafone Australia iPads have tethering enabled, for the new (4G that is not 4G) iPad and the newer "retina" iPad.
1) Europe is as a continent about as rich as the US. Western Europe in particular.
2) losing the market in Europe would be a major strategic error, as was the loss of marketshare during the 90's. iOS is a platform not just a device.
3) the reason Apple does so well in the US is the higher carrier subsidy which makes an iPhone the equivalent price with contract as any android device. In Europe the iPhone 5 is more expensive than the SIII. Other reasons - Siri was no use in Europe for a whole year. Where am I? Sorry, I can only do maps or anything vaguely useful in the US and in US English.
4) if they don't get a large market share in Europe they won't in China.
5) I can't see Apple selling just 1 phone a year for the rest of its time as a phone manufacturer. It doesn't need too many models, maybe maximum 3.
6) an obvious low end model would be the iPod touch form factor with a sim. Hardly a reduction in "build quality".
7) there's a chance to gain back Android users as there is less of a software lockdown on phones compared to pcs. So still a chance. I can see Apple at 30-35% market share but they need more models and one cheap one.
That said: Its better to be big in America than Big in Japan. Or Europe. Silicon Valley venture capital will flow to what it knows. From that base Apple can retake Europes. Its like Normandy all over again.
Here's my attempt at clarification:
1. Apple needs to provide lower cost options! Wrong. Instead, Apple is balancing supply and demand. If they can't produce it fast enough, then why in the hell would they lower the price? Maybe when they can produce more/faster at the high quality requirements, they will think of lowering price.
2. Apple doesn't care about market share! Wrong. Of course they care about market share especially when it comes to strategic objectives of critical mass to a specific platform. The iOS platform is a very important platform in which to sell hardware and to maintain addiction to its ecosystem. iOS is kicking ass in almost every major market. Halo effect of iOS is definitely a valuable growth engine for Mac (OSX). Europe is still a blip on the radar. Important, but still only a blip (at this time).
3. Apple should provide ALL form factors from small to big and cheap to expensive! Wrong. Again, look at #1 and #2 above. Apple will present new form factors (like the iPad Mini) only when supply/demand issues can be resolved AND when market share concerns arise. A certain amount of "loss" of market share is strategic in order to maintain cost efficiencies (in both COGS and R&D)...fortunately, Apple can absorb this "loss" by managing the game clock, then offer new form factors and price points when the time is right.
I'm one of those who thinks that a smaller form factor iPhone is inevitable. It will have functional handicaps, thereby reducing data use...therefore, carriers can offer them at a VERY low cost (i.e. almost no upfront cost and with reasonable data plans).
Here's to making this board a more sane, tolerant, and enjoyable forum.
Originally Posted by asdasd
5) I can't see Apple selling just 1 phone a year for the rest of its time as a phone manufacturer. It doesn't need too many models, maybe maximum 3.
Huh. Look at that. They sell three right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Huh. Look at that. They sell three right now.
Three models, all updated every year, not last years stuff. If Apple ran their mac line like that there would be one model, a Mac Pro - no mini, or mac book - and you can have this year's model, or last years, or the model of the year before, and that would be it.
Originally Posted by asdasd
Three models, all updated every year, not last years stuff.
All three models are updated every year. The free model gets better, the $99 model gets better, and the $199 model gets better.
If Apple ran their mac line like that there would be one model, a Mac Pro - no mini, or mac book - and you can have this year's model, or last years, or the model of the year before, and that would be it.
Your point being what? You obviously know that Apple is doing this wrong, because they're getting 75% of all the profits in the ENTIRE PHONE INDUSTRY. Yeah, you know exactly what they're doing wrong. My STARS, man! You're whining about problems with Apple when its the European telecoms that are the problem!
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewys808
Here's my attempt at clarification:
We are talking longer term, not just the iPhone 5.
2. Apple doesn't care about market share! Wrong. Of course they care about market share especially when it comes to strategic objectives of critical mass to a specific platform. The iOS platform is a very important platform in which to sell hardware and to maintain addiction to its ecosystem. iOS is kicking ass in almost every major market. Halo effect of iOS is definitely a valuable growth engine for Mac (OSX). Europe is still a blip on the radar. Important, but still only a blip (at this time).
3. Apple should provide ALL form factors from small to big and cheap to expensive! Wrong. Again, look at #1 and #2 above. Apple will present new form factors (like the iPad Mini) only when supply/demand issues can be resolved AND when market share concerns arise. A certain amount of "loss" of market share is strategic in order to maintain cost efficiencies (in both COGS and R&D)...fortunately, Apple can absorb this "loss" by managing the game clock, then offer new form factors and price points when the time is right.
I'm one of those who thinks that a smaller form factor iPhone is inevitable. It will have functional handicaps, thereby reducing data use...therefore, carriers can offer them at a VERY low cost (i.e. almost no upfront cost and with reasonable data plans).
Here's to making this board a more sane, tolerant, and enjoyable forum.
I dont think there will be a smaller form factor, lighter maybe, a la the iPod touch. I take your point on the demand constraints but I am talking longer term, and in any case with 3 releases a year - in my preferred scenario - any one release will not be so big as to cause supply constraints.