One last fucking time. This is a tech site so I do expect everyone to know what the fuçk about fucking binary.
That's not the issue in this lawsuit. This isn't the hard drive lawsuits of the 1990s. This is about the fact that a significant portion of the storage space is taken up by the OS and non-deletable Apple-installed apps.
Look at the table at the top of this article.
Device: iPhone 6+. Represented Capacity (GB): 16. Capacity Available to User (GiB): 11.8. Capacity Available to User (GB): 12.7. Capacity Unavailable to User (GB): 3.3.
And the capacity is 16GB. In fact, every device has a capacity slightly over 16GB.
We are splitting hairs here. Of course Apple is providing 16GB of storage on the device. That's not at all in question. But what isn't obvious is that of that 16GB, there is a chunk dedicated to the OS, another chunk dedicated to a recovery partition, some more lost in overhead, etc, etc. It's obvious to people like us who frequent tech sites and have lived with this stuff for years. But for most people, it's not at all obvious. I have to explain this all the time to friends and family who aren't into tech.
Do I think a class action lawsuit is the way to go? Not really -- I personally haven't seen a class action lawsuit that actually led to something meaningful for the consumer. But I do think that Apple could take the lead on this and make this kind of info more accessible. Put a chunk of unadvertised space in the device reserved for the OS as I suggested above would help. If not that, putting something on the box that says that up to X amount of the advertised space will be used for the OS would be an improvement.
Also Apple should be training their salespeople to steer people away from the 16GB models. I realize that there are some people where 16GB is appropriate, especially in enterprise settings where everything is in the cloud. But if someone comes in and wants a phone for themselves so they can use apps, and take photos/videos, 16GB is woefully inadequate.
That's not the issue in this lawsuit. This isn't the hard drive lawsuits of the 1990s. This is about the fact that a significant portion of the storage space is taken up by the OS and non-deletable Apple-installed apps.
Look at the table at the top of this article.
Device: iPhone 6+. Represented Capacity (GB): 16. Capacity Available to User (GiB): 11.8. Capacity Available to User (GB): 12.7. Capacity Unavailable to User (GB): 3.3.
Likewise. I suggest you read the complaint. They are not making the case that Apple is misrepresenting anything by using GB versus GiB. Their claim is that iOS 8 takes up a "unexpectedly" large portion of the advertised "16GB." My point in showing Apple's language from their tech page was to highlight what they don't say. In my opinion they should include the disclaimer that myself and others in this thread have been discussing.
Likewise. I suggest you read the complaint. They are not making the case that Apple is misrepresenting anything by using GB versus GiB. Their claim is that iOS 8 takes up a "unexpectedly" large portion of the advertised "16GB." My point in showing Apple's language from their tech page was to highlight what they don't say. In my opinion they should include the disclaimer that myself and others in this thread have been discussing.
It's good to know you're still saying that Apple doesn't state…
PS: Until you, just like the lawsuit, is moving between BASE-10 and BASE-2 values without converting to find the actual size of the default installation your comments are ridiculous, although [@]ktappe[/@]'s comments (e.g.: iOS8 takes up 11Gb or 68% of the storage on a 16Gb device) trumps yours by a large margin.
Holy shit. Didn't Surface tablet have like 50% of advertised storage as actually usable space? I don't recall Microsoft being sued, that was quite a bit more aggregious.
But hey- new day, new lawsuit,
Yup, OS was installed plus there was a recovery partition to restore the system.
Malax - The matter of a billion bytes (10^9) versus a gigabyte (2^30) has been long settled. With regards to the operating system, that falls under reasonable disclosure. One can easily check available space (Settings -> General -> About). About 3.4GB was used up on my iPhone 6. I did not upgrade my 4S as I knew iOS 8 was significantly larger and I only had a 16GB model.
There have been a number of stories about the amount of space that the Surface OS (Windows RT) uses much more space than iOS. Why isn't that grounds for a lawsuit?
It's good to know you're still saying that Apple doesn't state…
Ok, I'm going to try to understand whatever point you are trying to make because, unlike in this thread, you usually come across as a reasonable discussant.
Apple does state that 1GB = 1 billion bytes. Ok, who cares.
Apple then states that "actual formatted capacity less." To me this means, that a 16GB hard drive will have somewhat less than 16GB of storage space because of how drives are formatted. Ok.
What they don't say is "of that somewhat less than 16GB of storage, a few GB of is used for Apple stuff, so you will have more like 12 or 13GB of actual usable space for your stuff."
If somebody is so uninformed about product, they should not be buying them in the first place. If somebody is lazy enough not to read about the product, and informations are all around us, it does not deserve the smartphone.
Setting aside all the disputes about exactly how much space the operating system takes (on my iPhone, 2.6 GB is reserved for iOS8, on my iPad, 2.4 GB), this lawsuit flies in the face of the way that mass storage has been defined in computing for decades. The quoted storage is never the available space after operating systems, core files etc. are loaded - it is always the simple unformatted capacity of the storage medium. And it is available to the user - for use by the user's necessary device operating system as opposed to personal file storage.
It's like we're having a discussion about advertised fuel economy in MPG and someone is wigging about about miles per gallon versus kilometers per liter. I don't get it.
Ok, I'm going to try to understand whatever point you are trying to make because, unlike in this thread, you usually come across as a reasonable discussant.
Apple does state that 1GB = 1 billion bytes. Ok, who cares.
Apple then states that "actual formatted capacity less." To me this means, that a 16GB hard drive will have somewhat less than 16GB of storage space because of how drives are formatted. Ok.
What they don't say is "of that somewhat less than 16GB of storage, a few GB of is used for Apple stuff, so you will have more like 12 or 13GB of actual usual space for your stuff."
You know why they don't list exact figures? Because the second they do that some asshat will file a lawsuit if the figure ever varies higher or lower. It's a no-win scenario. The goal for the party suing isn't accuracy, or whatever, it's money.
If GM or Toyota sold a car with a 12 gallon gas tank (and also sold a more expensive model with a 20 gallon tank and made this a big part of their feature list) but you could only put 9.5 gallons of gas in it, that would be misleading, no?
Forget the hyperbole of the lawsuit and whether their return policy (or other defense) will protect them in this case. Shouldn't Apple (and all device makers) be more forthcoming about how much consumer-usable storage is available on their devices? I'm not suggesting it should be included in the public ads, but it should be easy for someone to find this information on Apple's product pages. And it isn't.
Don't car manus also advertise internal space of the trunk/cabin? How much of that is actually usable.
Where does the adequate research end? The box says 16GB of storage. A reasonable expectation is that it would hold 16GB of files. When I bought a refrigerator, it listed it's capacity in cubic feet. That capacity wasn't reduced by the motor and other internals -- that was already taken out of the listed capacity.
Are shelves excluded from the calculation? In addition, they recommend you leave space around the sides for circulation. Is that taken into effect?
Regardless he bought a 6 and could have returned it.
Where are they getting their figures from? Why would iOS take up more space on an iPod than an iPhone? And are these people going to sue every other manufacturer since they're even worse than Apple in this regard?
That's a great chart. If I had to guess, the issue with the iPhone, unlike all those other manufacturers is that you can't upgrade the storage capacity. So unlike the others, once you select the 16GB iphone, you're stuck with it. If the same thing happened with a Samsung, the store would just sell you a ram card. Apple sells you a virtual RAM card with a recurring fee rather than a one-time purchase.
Ok, I'm going to try to understand whatever point you are trying to make because, unlike in this thread, you usually come across as a reasonable discussant.
Apple does state that 1GB = 1 billion bytes. Ok, who cares.
I care. That's informative, even if I do wish that was never the marketing standard, that Apple use the IEC standard for binary, and that they use BASE-10 in iOS like they have used in Mac OS X for years.
Apple then states that "actual formatted capacity less." To me this means, that a 16GB hard drive will have somewhat less than 16GB of storage space because of how drives are formatted. Ok.
Yes, it will.
What they don't say is "of that somewhat less than 16GB of storage, a few GB of is used for Apple stuff, so you will have more like 12 or 13GB of actual usual space for your stuff."
1) Where is your conversion from GB to GiB? iOS 8 is not a 3GB or 3GiB OS.
2) Again —and for the last time — If this complaint was valid and perceptive it would reference both the storage capacity and OS in both the same GB or GiB values, instead of switching between two similar but disparate measurements.
Holy shit. Didn't Surface tablet have like 50% of advertised storage as actually usable space? I don't recall Microsoft being sued, that was quite a bit more aggregious.
But hey- new day, new lawsuit,
No, for the same lack of logic in this lawsuit. Surface has much larger capacity drives (it used a 2.5" style HDD/SDD, if I remember correctly) than other smartphones and tablets so the conversation from decimal to binary would have even been greater, just as it's greater between the 8GB and 128GB iPhone today. Of course, Windows is a much larger system and there is the much larger recovery partition, but that's inline with Mac OS X. Regardless, the actual space used by the default Windows installation is considerably smaller than the provocative reporting that fails to do the simple conversion.
Next, these idiots and their classless Class Action lawyers will be suing because they rented a small house and it filled up with garbage because they were too dumb or lazy to take the garbage out.
Operating Systems have been taking up real memory since the dawn of computers. How much it takes up depends on how many of the vendor supplied programs you want to run.
Infinity applies to three things - numbers, stupidity and greed.
Comments
*Yaaaawwwnnn*
This again?!
HOLY FUCKING CRAP ON A CRACKER!
One last fucking time. This is a tech site so I do expect everyone to know what the fuçk about fucking binary.
That's not the issue in this lawsuit. This isn't the hard drive lawsuits of the 1990s. This is about the fact that a significant portion of the storage space is taken up by the OS and non-deletable Apple-installed apps.
Look at the table at the top of this article.
Device: iPhone 6+. Represented Capacity (GB): 16. Capacity Available to User (GiB): 11.8. Capacity Available to User (GB): 12.7. Capacity Unavailable to User (GB): 3.3.
Looks like 3GB+ to me.
And the capacity is 16GB. In fact, every device has a capacity slightly over 16GB.
We are splitting hairs here. Of course Apple is providing 16GB of storage on the device. That's not at all in question. But what isn't obvious is that of that 16GB, there is a chunk dedicated to the OS, another chunk dedicated to a recovery partition, some more lost in overhead, etc, etc. It's obvious to people like us who frequent tech sites and have lived with this stuff for years. But for most people, it's not at all obvious. I have to explain this all the time to friends and family who aren't into tech.
Do I think a class action lawsuit is the way to go? Not really -- I personally haven't seen a class action lawsuit that actually led to something meaningful for the consumer. But I do think that Apple could take the lead on this and make this kind of info more accessible. Put a chunk of unadvertised space in the device reserved for the OS as I suggested above would help. If not that, putting something on the box that says that up to X amount of the advertised space will be used for the OS would be an improvement.
Also Apple should be training their salespeople to steer people away from the 16GB models. I realize that there are some people where 16GB is appropriate, especially in enterprise settings where everything is in the cloud. But if someone comes in and wants a phone for themselves so they can use apps, and take photos/videos, 16GB is woefully inadequate.
Likewise. I suggest you read the complaint. They are not making the case that Apple is misrepresenting anything by using GB versus GiB. Their claim is that iOS 8 takes up a "unexpectedly" large portion of the advertised "16GB." My point in showing Apple's language from their tech page was to highlight what they don't say. In my opinion they should include the disclaimer that myself and others in this thread have been discussing.
No.
It's good to know you're still saying that Apple doesn't state…
PS: Until you, just like the lawsuit, is moving between BASE-10 and BASE-2 values without converting to find the actual size of the default installation your comments are ridiculous, although [@]ktappe[/@]'s comments (e.g.: iOS8 takes up 11Gb or 68% of the storage on a 16Gb device) trumps yours by a large margin.
Holy shit. Didn't Surface tablet have like 50% of advertised storage as actually usable space? I don't recall Microsoft being sued, that was quite a bit more aggregious.
But hey- new day, new lawsuit,
Yup, OS was installed plus there was a recovery partition to restore the system.
There have been a number of stories about the amount of space that the Surface OS (Windows RT) uses much more space than iOS. Why isn't that grounds for a lawsuit?
No.
It's good to know you're still saying that Apple doesn't state…
Ok, I'm going to try to understand whatever point you are trying to make because, unlike in this thread, you usually come across as a reasonable discussant.
Apple does state that 1GB = 1 billion bytes. Ok, who cares.
Apple then states that "actual formatted capacity less." To me this means, that a 16GB hard drive will have somewhat less than 16GB of storage space because of how drives are formatted. Ok.
What they don't say is "of that somewhat less than 16GB of storage, a few GB of is used for Apple stuff, so you will have more like 12 or 13GB of actual usable space for your stuff."
If somebody is so uninformed about product, they should not be buying them in the first place. If somebody is lazy enough not to read about the product, and informations are all around us, it does not deserve the smartphone.
Setting aside all the disputes about exactly how much space the operating system takes (on my iPhone, 2.6 GB is reserved for iOS8, on my iPad, 2.4 GB), this lawsuit flies in the face of the way that mass storage has been defined in computing for decades. The quoted storage is never the available space after operating systems, core files etc. are loaded - it is always the simple unformatted capacity of the storage medium. And it is available to the user - for use by the user's necessary device operating system as opposed to personal file storage.
It's like we're having a discussion about advertised fuel economy in MPG and someone is wigging about about miles per gallon versus kilometers per liter. I don't get it.
Immediately thrown out for criminal stupidity.
Arrest these people for misuse of the justice system.
You know why they don't list exact figures? Because the second they do that some asshat will file a lawsuit if the figure ever varies higher or lower. It's a no-win scenario. The goal for the party suing isn't accuracy, or whatever, it's money.
Don't car manus also advertise internal space of the trunk/cabin? How much of that is actually usable.
Are shelves excluded from the calculation? In addition, they recommend you leave space around the sides for circulation. Is that taken into effect?
Regardless he bought a 6 and could have returned it.
That's a great chart. If I had to guess, the issue with the iPhone, unlike all those other manufacturers is that you can't upgrade the storage capacity. So unlike the others, once you select the 16GB iphone, you're stuck with it. If the same thing happened with a Samsung, the store would just sell you a ram card. Apple sells you a virtual RAM card with a recurring fee rather than a one-time purchase.
I care. That's informative, even if I do wish that was never the marketing standard, that Apple use the IEC standard for binary, and that they use BASE-10 in iOS like they have used in Mac OS X for years.
Yes, it will.
1) Where is your conversion from GB to GiB? iOS 8 is not a 3GB or 3GiB OS.
2) Again —and for the last time — If this complaint was valid and perceptive it would reference both the storage capacity and OS in both the same GB or GiB values, instead of switching between two similar but disparate measurements.
No, for the same lack of logic in this lawsuit. Surface has much larger capacity drives (it used a 2.5" style HDD/SDD, if I remember correctly) than other smartphones and tablets so the conversation from decimal to binary would have even been greater, just as it's greater between the 8GB and 128GB iPhone today. Of course, Windows is a much larger system and there is the much larger recovery partition, but that's inline with Mac OS X. Regardless, the actual space used by the default Windows installation is considerably smaller than the provocative reporting that fails to do the simple conversion.
Next, these idiots and their classless Class Action lawyers will be suing because they rented a small house and it filled up with garbage because they were too dumb or lazy to take the garbage out.
Operating Systems have been taking up real memory since the dawn of computers. How much it takes up depends on how many of the vendor supplied programs you want to run.
Infinity applies to three things - numbers, stupidity and greed.
Think of the children. ladies and gentleman!! I beg you! THE CHILDREN!!