Want better wages? Go fking school and get a degree. Education doesn't come cheap and easy. People spent stressful months and years in school to deserve high pays. Unions just do more harm more than help. I'm sick of this kind of complaints. Janitors offered us to clean our house for $75/hr...I said fck it. I'll do it myself.
Getting a college degree doesn't mean one "deserves" high-paying jobs. That degree means certain doors "may" open to them, but in the end it comes down to the individual person that applies for that job.
There are quite a few brilliant software engineers that make serious money with no college degree. I know quite a few college-educated engineers that are dumber than dirt and couldn't code their way out of a "Hello World" program. Most I know just happened to have mommy and daddy pay for their college or trust-fund kiddies that frankly, have zero business being in the field.
The difference between those two people is that one is passionate about what they do, the other is just along for the ride.
What I do agree with is that if one makes a living driving a bus, even an honest living and supporting a family, don't expect the same level of comfort and value compared to say that high-paying engineer. It comes down to the value of that skill. There are countless folks qualified to be a great bus driver that will gladly take over your job, not so with engineers. It's a fact.
I have nothing against bus drivers, janitors, waiters, etc... they perform a valuable service and we need them just as much as we need engineers.
That being said, I also believe in a livable wage. Above that, if your job is not paying you enough, go find another one. Last time I checked, truck drivers are being offered $100K+ salaries. That sounds like a step up from bus driver doesn't it?
Getting a college degree doesn't mean one "deserves" high-paying jobs. That degree means certain doors "may" open to them, but in the end it comes down to the individual person that applies for that job.
There are quite a few brilliant software engineers that make serious money with no college degree. I know quite a few college-educated engineers that are dumber than dirt and couldn't code their way out of a "Hello World" program. Most I know just happened to have mommy and daddy pay for their college or trust-fund kiddies that frankly, have zero business being in the field.
The difference between those two people is that one is passionate about what they do, the other is just along for the ride.
What I do agree with is that if one makes a living driving a bus, even an honest living and supporting a family, don't expect the same level of comfort and value compared to say that high-paying engineer. It comes down to the value of that skill. There are countless folks qualified to be a great bus driver that will gladly take over your job, not so with engineers. It's a fact.
I have nothing against bus drivers, janitors, waiters, etc... they perform a valuable service and we need them just as much as we need engineers.
That being said, I also believe in a livable wage. Above that, if your job is not paying you enough, go find another one. Last time I checked, truck drivers are being offered $100K+ salaries. That sounds like a step up from bus driver doesn't it?
You're right about college. Steve Jobs never finished, for one. There are many wealthy people who are self-made.
Apple isn't losing any sleep over this. $18 or $24...whatever. The cost of doing business is passed on to the consumer. If union employees servicing Apple employees bothers you, move to SF and start your own competing non-union transportation company and bid for the tech company contracts.
Not that easy, once the unions gets their foot in the door. A non union bus service would be faced with picketers (most likely homeless people hired by the unions at below minimum wage) harassing the riders at all their bus stops, and possible vandalism of their buses. The tech companies that hires a non union bus service would also be picketed. With their customers also being harassed. It's how the union competes.
Unions gave us the 40 hours / 5 day work week. Understanding the role of unions in American labor history is pretty important.
Specific to the Bay Area, you have to pay people living wages and that is much higher in the Bay Area. $50k a year is barely covering rent.
Unions also contributed to the decimation of the U.S. manufacturing base, along with the unwise decision by global members to allow China into the WTO, thus enabling a massive IP thief and currency manipulator entree into American markets and freedom to bleed America while building up their own manufacturing. Unions created a business-hostile climate and businesses fled for the low wage "factory floor for the world".
I'm not anti-union, but if I wasn't getting paid enough for a job and they weren't willing to give a raise I'd look for other work. I guess what I want to know is: Why couldn't they simply look for other work that did pay them a market value for their job? If that didn't exist then doesn't that mean they are getting paid market value? If it does exist, wouldn't that mean Compass Transportation would likely have to raise their wage or risk having too high a turnover that would cut into their profits?
Unions also contributed to the decimation of the U.S. manufacturing base, along with the unwise decision by global members to allow China into the WTO, thus enabling a massive IP thief and currency manipulator entree into American markets and freedom to bleed America while building up their own manufacturing. Unions created a business-hostile climate and businesses fled for the low wage "factory floor for the world".
I understand they also had a hand in the black death and the meteor that took out the dinosaurs. Dinosaurs ... ... oh wait!
I"m not anti-union, but if I wasn't getting paid enough for a job and they weren't willing to give a raise I'd look for other work. I guess what I want to know is: Why couldn't they simply look for other work that did pay them a market value for their job? If that didn't exist then doesn't that mean they are getting paid market value? If it does exist, wouldn't that mean Compass Transportation would likely have to raise their wage or risk having too high a turnover that would cut into their profits?
I agree. I guess the employee would rather force an employer to pay them a higher wage than to actually take the initiative and better themselves to get a better job right? That would make too much sense.
They know that if they quit, there will be a dozen people right behind them ready to take that job. So instead, lets form a union to force employers to pay more than what the going rate is.
Lots of negativity here re the drivers. true, they are not employees of Apple, etc., but they serve them, and from what I can glean, serve them well. These folks, or their employer, play a crucial role in High-Tech, and probably should be employees of Apple, et al, but the companies , trying to cut costs, hire a third party. Somewhat unfair, IMHO. I'm generally anti-Union, but if these guys would be making more, then I suppose they wouldn't have thought of a Union. In my opinion, they should be employees of the high tech firms themselves, and thus share in the wealth they , while they didn't create, help sustain. Twenty buck an hour sounds like a lot when you're making a high tech salary, but that's about 40,000 per year, not enough to support a family, esp in that area. Just sayin'
And how much is this really going to help these drivers once they realize they are going to have to pay $4/hr in Union dues.
California as a whole, and the Bay Area especially need to look into why their cost of living is so high and fix that. You can't just keep giving raises to people so they make more money and expecting that to help. You need to fix the infrastructure and housing issues to bring those costs down to make those things more affordable.
Or people who can't make enough to live there need to realize it and move to a place where they can.
Finally, if $40,000 yr isn't enough for a family to live on [B]THEN DON'T HAVE KIDS[/B]. Improve your skills and get a better paying job before you do.
Lots of negativity here re the drivers. true, they are not employees of Apple, etc., but they serve them, and from what I can glean, serve them well. These folks, or their employer, play a crucial role in High-Tech, and probably should be employees of Apple, et al, but the companies , trying to cut costs, hire a third party. Somewhat unfair, IMHO. I'm generally anti-Union, but if these guys would be making more, then I suppose they wouldn't have thought of a Union. In my opinion, they should be employees of the high tech firms themselves, and thus share in the wealth they , while they didn't create, help sustain.
Twenty buck an hour sounds like a lot when you're making a high tech salary, but that's about 40,000 per year, not enough to support a family, esp in that area.
Just sayin'
Apple needs talent, offering quarter million signing bonuses, paying start ups millions. This happens because people like you and I pay Apple lots of money to create the future. But, they struggle to turn our fantasies into reality. If only there were just a few more bus drivers who considered being a programmer. They don't because they genuinely love driving busses.. or they think coding is difficult, or they don't believe in themself, or they don't know the profession exists. The latter people have fears, insecurity, ignorance, laziness, so they don't apply for the position that we told Apple to fill with our wallets. Just now, a future Apple engineer spotted a programmer driving a beautiful car and asked about it. That person will go to college, or learn online for free. The money Apple pays is the incentive to get them out of the bus driver's seat. Apples jobs are demanding and difficult to learn, but they're very rewarding and also change lives! No one likes to see bus drivers making less, but apparently that deficit isn't enough to get them past the obstacles mentioned earlier, and so the pay gap increases. Imagine if a bus driving union had popped up when Apple first started? And a fast food union? Waitresses, janitors.. Apple would have paid out more and had less for the super bowl ads that changed the mindset of the masses, their customers would have less money to buy computers with, so less motivatation for people to learn new and untested professions, so less stuff created to attract more customers to feed the system… There wasn't much of a software industry when Apple started but now we have an entire profession that didn't exist. One with college degrees and online courses you and I have access to. If you want to make a difference in a bus drivers life, you don't have wait for Apple to give them your money. You can buy cheaper phones and leave much bigger tips on busses. That's what you're doing anyways, when you support the bus driving union. A pay gap helps bus drivers consider the tech field over the one they happened to see on a wanted ad when they graduated high school, or the one their parents were good at… Artificial demand keeps people from learning new technologies that meet real needs. For the unskilled worker who has the drive, aptitude, and excitement to change, how much will it take to create that change? I guess we don't know yet. Imagine how many people who currently make Apple products would be doing something different today? Tim Cook may have not heard about the profession from a friend who works in software because he saw how good the Apple II was. Tim Cook would be the bus driver today. I'm sure he's much happier working at Apple.
And how much is this really going to help these drivers once they realize they are going to have to pay $4/hr in Union dues.
California as a whole, and the Bay Area especially need to look into why their cost of living is so high and fix that. You can't just keep giving raises to people so they make more money and expecting that to help. You need to fix the infrastructure and housing issues to bring those costs down to make those things more affordable.
Or people who can't make enough to live there need to realize it and move to a place where they can.
Finally, if $40,000 yr isn't enough for a family to live on THEN DON'T HAVE KIDS. Improve your skills and get a better paying job before you do.
This Republican notion that everyone can get an education, and make it is so wrong. Everyone can't be a doctor, a lawyer, a developer, or own a business. We need people to be policeman, fire fighters, garbage collectors, and bus drivers. Those people provide an essential service, and should earn a living wage.
SF is a small city that has been hit hard by gentrification. The new residents are willing to pay more in rent, and as are the businesses that cater to them. This causes long time residents, and businesses to get pushed out by their landlord. The higher cost of doing business gets passed on to the consumer. It's people that make the cost of living to sky rocket, so how do you suggest we remedy that?
Lots of negativity here re the drivers. true, they are not employees of Apple, etc., but they serve them, and from what I can glean, serve them well. These folks, or their employer, play a crucial role in High-Tech, and probably should be employees of Apple, et al, but the companies , trying to cut costs, hire a third party. Somewhat unfair, IMHO. I'm generally anti-Union, but if these guys would be making more, then I suppose they wouldn't have thought of a Union. In my opinion, they should be employees of the high tech firms themselves, and thus share in the wealth they , while they didn't create, help sustain.
Twenty buck an hour sounds like a lot when you're making a high tech salary, but that's about 40,000 per year, not enough to support a family, esp in that area.
Just sayin'
Good post. I trust your other two were of a similar standard. ????
This Republican notion that everyone can get an education, and make it is so wrong. Everyone can't be a doctor, a lawyer, a developer, or own a business. We need people to be policeman, fire fighters, garbage collectors, and bus drivers. Those people provide an essential service, and should earn a living wage.
SF is a small city that has been hit hard by gentrification. The new residents are willing to pay more in rent, and as are the businesses that cater to them. This causes long time residents, and businesses to get pushed out by their landlord. The higher cost of doing business gets passed on to the consumer. It's people that make the cost of living to sky rocket, so how do you suggest we remedy that?
As you are aware, automation led by business and consumer demand will cause the eventual elimination of many low-skill jobs out there. Drivers of all kinds will start to disappear within 5-10 years. Once the general purpose robot is developed to a point where they can replace line workers of all kinds, businesses in the US will certainly engage that level of automation simply because people represent a huge financial risk. If I was a truck driver or easily replaceable worker, I'd study robotics (and buy AAPL).
This Republican notion that everyone can get an education, and make it is so wrong. Everyone can't be a doctor, a lawyer, a developer, or own a business. We need people to be policeman, fire fighters, garbage collectors, and bus drivers. Those people provide an essential service, and should earn a living wage.
SF is a small city that has been hit hard by gentrification. The new residents are willing to pay more in rent, and as are the businesses that cater to them. This causes long time residents, and businesses to get pushed out by their landlord. The higher cost of doing business gets passed on to the consumer. It's people that make the cost of living to sky rocket, so how do you suggest we remedy that?
San Francisco was settled by white people like myself who ran Native Americans out, many of which made their money by slavery or as a result of it. Now that Native Americans and African Americans have the opportunity to return and buy a house in a beautiful place like San Francisco, some want to use their influence and their governments influence to keep things the way they have been. They want to cement their position even though no one in the past was able to do that. If the city is becoming popular, let anyone who wants to pay money get in. If I own property in San Francisco, let me sell it for the price I want. Let me rent it for the price I want. Let people have a choice to live there. If you can't afford to live there, maybe you need to move to one of the places that these suppressed people have had to live for the last 200 years.
This Republican notion that everyone can get an education, and make it is so wrong. Everyone can't be a doctor, a lawyer, a developer, or own a business. We need people to be policeman, fire fighters, garbage collectors, and bus drivers. Those people provide an essential service, and should earn a living wage.
SF is a small city that has been hit hard by gentrification. The new residents are willing to pay more in rent, and as are the businesses that cater to them. This causes long time residents, and businesses to get pushed out by their landlord. The higher cost of doing business gets passed on to the consumer. It's people that make the cost of living to sky rocket, so how do you suggest we remedy that?
As you are aware, automation led by business and consumer demand will cause the eventual elimination of many low-skill jobs out there. Drivers of all kinds will start to disappear within 5-10 years. Once the general purpose robot is developed to a point where they can replace line workers of all kinds, businesses in the US will certainly engage that level of automation simply because people represent a huge financial risk. If I was a truck driver or easily replaceable worker, I'd study robotics (and buy AAPL).
As you are aware, automation led by business and consumer demand will cause the eventual elimination of many low-skill jobs out there. Drivers of all kinds will start to disappear within 5-10 years. Once the general purpose robot is developed to a point where they can replace line workers of all kinds, businesses in the US will certainly engage that level of automation simply because people represent a huge financial risk. If I was a truck driver or easily replaceable worker, I'd study robotics (and buy AAPL).
I've been hearing that nonsense all my life. This was going to eliminate that, that was going to eliminate this. We're going to have so much free time on our hands because of automation, and if anything we have less free time.
If the city is becoming popular, let anyone who wants to pay money get in. If I own property in San Francisco, let me sell it for the price I want. Let me rent it for the price I want. Let people have a choice to live there. If you can't afford to live there, maybe you need to move to one of the places that these suppressed people have had to live for the last 200 years.
The charm of San Francisco doesn't come from the tech workers, the lawyers or the doctors. What makes San Francisco attractive as a city is slowly being killed by those who find it attractive. The city will become just another large soulless American city unless action is taken to make it accessible to all incomes.
Comments
Want better wages? Go fking school and get a degree. Education doesn't come cheap and easy. People spent stressful months and years in school to deserve high pays. Unions just do more harm more than help. I'm sick of this kind of complaints. Janitors offered us to clean our house for $75/hr...I said fck it. I'll do it myself.
Getting a college degree doesn't mean one "deserves" high-paying jobs. That degree means certain doors "may" open to them, but in the end it comes down to the individual person that applies for that job.
There are quite a few brilliant software engineers that make serious money with no college degree. I know quite a few college-educated engineers that are dumber than dirt and couldn't code their way out of a "Hello World" program. Most I know just happened to have mommy and daddy pay for their college or trust-fund kiddies that frankly, have zero business being in the field.
The difference between those two people is that one is passionate about what they do, the other is just along for the ride.
What I do agree with is that if one makes a living driving a bus, even an honest living and supporting a family, don't expect the same level of comfort and value compared to say that high-paying engineer. It comes down to the value of that skill. There are countless folks qualified to be a great bus driver that will gladly take over your job, not so with engineers. It's a fact.
I have nothing against bus drivers, janitors, waiters, etc... they perform a valuable service and we need them just as much as we need engineers.
That being said, I also believe in a livable wage. Above that, if your job is not paying you enough, go find another one. Last time I checked, truck drivers are being offered $100K+ salaries. That sounds like a step up from bus driver doesn't it?
You're right about college. Steve Jobs never finished, for one. There are many wealthy people who are self-made.
Specific to the Bay Area, you have to pay people living wages and that is much higher in the Bay Area. $50k a year is barely covering rent.
Apple isn't losing any sleep over this. $18 or $24...whatever. The cost of doing business is passed on to the consumer. If union employees servicing Apple employees bothers you, move to SF and start your own competing non-union transportation company and bid for the tech company contracts.
Not that easy, once the unions gets their foot in the door. A non union bus service would be faced with picketers (most likely homeless people hired by the unions at below minimum wage) harassing the riders at all their bus stops, and possible vandalism of their buses. The tech companies that hires a non union bus service would also be picketed. With their customers also being harassed. It's how the union competes.
Unions also contributed to the decimation of the U.S. manufacturing base, along with the unwise decision by global members to allow China into the WTO, thus enabling a massive IP thief and currency manipulator entree into American markets and freedom to bleed America while building up their own manufacturing. Unions created a business-hostile climate and businesses fled for the low wage "factory floor for the world".
Do these shuttle bus drivers work all day, e.g. Do they have a route they run every hour etc?
Without knowing any of that I can't make comment on if this is a good or bad thing.
Unions also contributed to the decimation of the U.S. manufacturing base, along with the unwise decision by global members to allow China into the WTO, thus enabling a massive IP thief and currency manipulator entree into American markets and freedom to bleed America while building up their own manufacturing. Unions created a business-hostile climate and businesses fled for the low wage "factory floor for the world".
I understand they also had a hand in the black death and the meteor that took out the dinosaurs. Dinosaurs ... ... oh wait!
I"m not anti-union, but if I wasn't getting paid enough for a job and they weren't willing to give a raise I'd look for other work. I guess what I want to know is: Why couldn't they simply look for other work that did pay them a market value for their job? If that didn't exist then doesn't that mean they are getting paid market value? If it does exist, wouldn't that mean Compass Transportation would likely have to raise their wage or risk having too high a turnover that would cut into their profits?
I agree. I guess the employee would rather force an employer to pay them a higher wage than to actually take the initiative and better themselves to get a better job right? That would make too much sense.
They know that if they quit, there will be a dozen people right behind them ready to take that job. So instead, lets form a union to force employers to pay more than what the going rate is.
What is The wow all about. $24 an hour is already damn good wages for a stupid person to earn.
Twenty buck an hour sounds like a lot when you're making a high tech salary, but that's about 40,000 per year, not enough to support a family, esp in that area.
Just sayin'
California as a whole, and the Bay Area especially need to look into why their cost of living is so high and fix that. You can't just keep giving raises to people so they make more money and expecting that to help. You need to fix the infrastructure and housing issues to bring those costs down to make those things more affordable.
Or people who can't make enough to live there need to realize it and move to a place where they can.
Finally, if $40,000 yr isn't enough for a family to live on [B]THEN DON'T HAVE KIDS[/B]. Improve your skills and get a better paying job before you do.
Apple needs talent, offering quarter million signing bonuses, paying start ups millions. This happens because people like you and I pay Apple lots of money to create the future. But, they struggle to turn our fantasies into reality. If only there were just a few more bus drivers who considered being a programmer. They don't because they genuinely love driving busses.. or they think coding is difficult, or they don't believe in themself, or they don't know the profession exists. The latter people have fears, insecurity, ignorance, laziness, so they don't apply for the position that we told Apple to fill with our wallets. Just now, a future Apple engineer spotted a programmer driving a beautiful car and asked about it. That person will go to college, or learn online for free. The money Apple pays is the incentive to get them out of the bus driver's seat. Apples jobs are demanding and difficult to learn, but they're very rewarding and also change lives! No one likes to see bus drivers making less, but apparently that deficit isn't enough to get them past the obstacles mentioned earlier, and so the pay gap increases. Imagine if a bus driving union had popped up when Apple first started? And a fast food union? Waitresses, janitors.. Apple would have paid out more and had less for the super bowl ads that changed the mindset of the masses, their customers would have less money to buy computers with, so less motivatation for people to learn new and untested professions, so less stuff created to attract more customers to feed the system… There wasn't much of a software industry when Apple started but now we have an entire profession that didn't exist. One with college degrees and online courses you and I have access to. If you want to make a difference in a bus drivers life, you don't have wait for Apple to give them your money. You can buy cheaper phones and leave much bigger tips on busses. That's what you're doing anyways, when you support the bus driving union. A pay gap helps bus drivers consider the tech field over the one they happened to see on a wanted ad when they graduated high school, or the one their parents were good at… Artificial demand keeps people from learning new technologies that meet real needs. For the unskilled worker who has the drive, aptitude, and excitement to change, how much will it take to create that change? I guess we don't know yet. Imagine how many people who currently make Apple products would be doing something different today? Tim Cook may have not heard about the profession from a friend who works in software because he saw how good the Apple II was. Tim Cook would be the bus driver today. I'm sure he's much happier working at Apple.
This Republican notion that everyone can get an education, and make it is so wrong. Everyone can't be a doctor, a lawyer, a developer, or own a business. We need people to be policeman, fire fighters, garbage collectors, and bus drivers. Those people provide an essential service, and should earn a living wage.
SF is a small city that has been hit hard by gentrification. The new residents are willing to pay more in rent, and as are the businesses that cater to them. This causes long time residents, and businesses to get pushed out by their landlord. The higher cost of doing business gets passed on to the consumer. It's people that make the cost of living to sky rocket, so how do you suggest we remedy that?
Good post. I trust your other two were of a similar standard. ????
As you are aware, automation led by business and consumer demand will cause the eventual elimination of many low-skill jobs out there. Drivers of all kinds will start to disappear within 5-10 years. Once the general purpose robot is developed to a point where they can replace line workers of all kinds, businesses in the US will certainly engage that level of automation simply because people represent a huge financial risk. If I was a truck driver or easily replaceable worker, I'd study robotics (and buy AAPL).
San Francisco was settled by white people like myself who ran Native Americans out, many of which made their money by slavery or as a result of it. Now that Native Americans and African Americans have the opportunity to return and buy a house in a beautiful place like San Francisco, some want to use their influence and their governments influence to keep things the way they have been. They want to cement their position even though no one in the past was able to do that. If the city is becoming popular, let anyone who wants to pay money get in. If I own property in San Francisco, let me sell it for the price I want. Let me rent it for the price I want. Let people have a choice to live there. If you can't afford to live there, maybe you need to move to one of the places that these suppressed people have had to live for the last 200 years.
Thanks for the comedy.
I've been hearing that nonsense all my life. This was going to eliminate that, that was going to eliminate this. We're going to have so much free time on our hands because of automation, and if anything we have less free time.
If the city is becoming popular, let anyone who wants to pay money get in. If I own property in San Francisco, let me sell it for the price I want. Let me rent it for the price I want. Let people have a choice to live there. If you can't afford to live there, maybe you need to move to one of the places that these suppressed people have had to live for the last 200 years.
The charm of San Francisco doesn't come from the tech workers, the lawyers or the doctors. What makes San Francisco attractive as a city is slowly being killed by those who find it attractive. The city will become just another large soulless American city unless action is taken to make it accessible to all incomes.