And yet, Mark Knighton refuses to ship it. Care to guess why?
Yes
Have you ever run a firmware update on your TextBlade gmadden, or heard of someone running a firmware update?
Yes
Have you heard any reports of any treg tester bricking a Textblade as part of a firmware update procedure?
Yes, as below.
Does interrupting a firmware update brick the keyboard?
In the past, Yes. No TREG reports of this for a very long time. It was not a permanent brick. Maybe more like plasterboard
Can a Textblade be un-bricked with a reset procedure and firmware upgrade re-run?
Depends how it bricked.
Why, in the entire universe of firmware upgradeable devices, is only Waytools unable to ship a product with firmware that can be easily upgraded at a later date?
No. I think the premise here is false. Upgrading the firmware post release has not been the hold up. It is triage and resolution of ‘issues’.
There are countless little electronic gadgets available (with a fraction of the alleged R&D input of the Textblade) which have no problem implementing an intuitive firmware update procedure that works. Why can't Waytools figure that out?
They have. I get the impression you don’t like the chosen answer.
Have an opinion?
Yes
Why is the Textblade firmware update procedure so unreliable that Waytools cannot risk releasing firmware v1 while they finish v2?
Not the upgrade itself, all the stuff around it for many thousands of (potential) customers with (un-triaged) issues.
If there is no serious and good faith logical answer to these questions, then perhaps the real answer is simply that there is no Textblade being offered for sale under any circumstance, and the technical issues alleged (firmware re-write) are a cover story.
Impressively elaborate if that is the case.
Isn't the much more likely truth that they cannot afford to produce it (and thus lie to everyone by not disclosing that fact), or that they are restrained from selling it due to patent/legal issues (and thus they lie to everyone by not disclosing that fact)?
No
Edit: line breaks on mobile aren’t playing nice. Is there a way to HTML edit on mobile?
A prototype is an early sample, model, or release of a product built to test a concept or process or to act as a thing to be replicated or learned from. That sounds a lot like what’s happening with the units TREG [you] have to me
Or the Cambridge dictionary definition: "the original model of something from which later forms are developed"
But either way, we don't have early versions.
You outdid yourself there Kahuna. You literally just affirmed that 'prototype' is an entirely appropriate term, and then reflexively denied it by insinuating that what you have (a prototype from about 3 years ago) is not, by some undefined definition known only to you, an 'early version'.
And yet, Mark Knighton refuses to ship it. Care to guess why?
Yes
Have you ever run a firmware update on your TextBlade gmadden, or heard of someone running a firmware update?
Yes
Have you heard any reports of any treg tester bricking a Textblade as part of a firmware update procedure?
Yes, as below.
Does interrupting a firmware update brick the keyboard?
In the past, Yes. No TREG reports of this for a very long time. It was not a permanent brick. Maybe more like plasterboard
Can a Textblade be un-bricked with a reset procedure and firmware upgrade re-run?
Depends how it bricked.
Why, in the entire universe of firmware upgradeable devices, is only Waytools unable to ship a product with firmware that can be easily upgraded at a later date?
No. I think the premise here is false. Upgrading the firmware post release has not been the hold up. It is triage and resolution of ‘issues’.
There are countless little electronic gadgets available (with a fraction of the alleged R&D input of the Textblade) which have no problem implementing an intuitive firmware update procedure that works. Why can't Waytools figure that out?
They have. I get the impression you don’t like the chosen answer.
Have an opinion?
Yes
Why is the Textblade firmware update procedure so unreliable that Waytools cannot risk releasing firmware v1 while they finish v2?
Not the upgrade itself, all the stuff around it for many thousands of (potential) customers with (un-triaged) issues.
If there is no serious and good faith logical answer to these questions, then perhaps the real answer is simply that there is no Textblade being offered for sale under any circumstance, and the technical issues alleged (firmware re-write) are a cover story.
Impressively elaborate if that is the case.
Isn't the much more likely truth that they cannot afford to produce it (and thus lie to everyone by not disclosing that fact), or that they are restrained from selling it due to patent/legal issues (and thus they lie to everyone by not disclosing that fact)?
No
Your reply is cryptic and non-responsive.
Yes no yes no - 'all the stuff around it' - thousands of potential customers with un-triaged issues. What are you talking about? My questions were asked to you in the context of your prior reply indicating that you use the keyboard every day with multiple devices and have no issues.
Why do Treg people report that the device works and there are no issues, but when asked to articulate why Waytools refuses to ship, the Treg people all fall back to the hypothetical potential for 'issues' in order to defend Waytools?
Its BS.
Have an opinion? Yes - ok, what is it?
Why does your keyboard work perfectly, and WT has firmware update process all worked out, but they cant ship the keyboard?
And now Kahuna reminds us all that the hardware isnt even finished - needs new paint somewhere. I wonder whats in those 'two pallets' then? A bunch of devices that have to be disassembled so they can be re-painted? (If it even works that way - more likely is that these plastics have to be re-molded, at least if they are making something of any quality, like a good mechanical keyboard that has double molded keycaps so the letters dont fade with use)
Maybe they are two palliets... Which you need to look into closely to see what lies within...
The inconsistent statements of Treggers over whether the device does or doesn't work properly is disturbing.
Sometimes I feel we dealing with a bunch of Treglodites, other times they seem like Tregular folks.
Still, the ongoing saga makes it feel like a Shakespearean Tregedy starring No True Macbethton and his band of merry men who steal from the rich and give to the poor Treggers in King Arthur’s Nottingbeef Forest, where Oliver Twist lives to one day type on a TextBlade and turns to DBK and says “please sir, can I ‘ave some more?”, whereupon McNaughton barks NO is his McNaughtoniest voice ever.
See? The ridiculous turns out to be more plausible than GR ever reaching GR status, or the May Nopedate arriving in May without expectedly predictable non-vague delay.
I bet McNaughton regrets giving AI a chance to review the unavailable Tregblade... he is paying dearly.
You outdid yourself there Kahuna. You literally just affirmed that 'prototype' is an entirely appropriate term, and then reflexively denied it by insinuating that what you have (a prototype from about 3 years ago) is not, by some undefined definition known only to you, an 'early version'.
You do manage to get things wrong a lot.
First, 3 years ago was May 26, 2016, so let's start a bit sooner - March 28, 2016, which is when the first TB arrived. Even that was not an "early version" of the TextBlade. It was an early release candidate, but that is quite different and happens long after the prototype stage. At the time, WayTools was expecting us to test it a few weeks and then they'd release it. Turns out we found problems, but that doesn't change the fact that it wasn't a prototype.
Second, the TextBlade I'm using isn't from 3 years ago anyway. The testing process sometimes involves replacing a defective unit. Or replacing with one that has some update in the hardware. Or even if one got accidentally broken. I've had a number of them and I'm almost positive every Treg member has been sent a new version much more recently. So this one is nowhere near 3 years old. But hey, claiming something that you literally don't know about is your best thing!
Why do Treg people report that the device works and there are no issues
WT has firmware update process all worked out, but they cant ship the keyboard?
1. Maybe he figured simple yes/no answers were things you could keep track of better?
2. This is a perfect example of you having trouble keeping track. Because there have been plenty of posts from Treg people that, while it works well, they have or know of other Treg members who have issues.
3. Part of the firmware update process is to get it up to parity before shipping. They've said this multiple times.
... 'all the stuff around it' - thousands of potential customers with un-triaged issues. What are you talking about? My questions were asked to you in the context of your prior reply indicating that you use the keyboard every day with multiple devices and have no issues.
Why do Treg people report that the device works and there are no issues, but when asked to articulate why Waytools refuses to ship, the Treg people all fall back to the hypothetical potential for 'issues' in order to defend Waytools?
Its BS.
Have an opinion? Yes - ok, what is it?
Why does your keyboard work perfectly, and WT has firmware update process all worked out, but they cant ship the keyboard?
And now Kahuna reminds us all that the hardware isnt even finished - needs new paint somewhere. I wonder whats in those 'two pallets' then? A bunch of devices that have to be disassembled so they can be re-painted? (If it even works that way - more likely is that these plastics have to be re-molded, at least if they are making something of any quality, like a good mechanical keyboard that has double molded keycaps so the letters dont fade with use)
Apologies, ‘triage’ is a common term here for items coming in that need to be assessed before taking action. I’m not going to list out a whole theoretical triage decision tree here, an ability to respond to issues reported by customers must be taken in to account holistically. The whole process rather than focusing only on one aspect. It’s more than installing an update. What is a high priority issue? Is it user or hardware or software or environmental faults? Do we need better documentation in this area? Can we get logs of it? Is there a known fix or does it require investigation? Does the current code base support the change required? Are there hardware constraints with the fix? Can our regression tests cover it? Did it break something else?
No one wants their issue ending on a backlog of never resolved items.
Having a current state of ‘no problems’ does not mean I haven’t had problems in the past or that I won’t in the future. Problems some had reported I hadn’t been able to replicate for months afterward. In the early stages, a couple of problems I reported were my use of the product and there weren’t any faults - all resolved through training/documentation.
My response is my opinion. If you don’t want to believe that, you are most welcome to ignore it. As far as I’m aware the short answers would’ve been answered elsewhere. ‘heard of someone running a [TextBlade] firmware update?’ Surprised that needed to be asked.
Or the Cambridge dictionary definition: "the original model of something from which later forms are developed"
But either way, we don't have early versions.
“Pre-release versions” satisfy your definition structure...?
The only reason they mightn’t be considered “early” is because we’re 4+ years past the date of announcing that release was imminent (heavily representing that case...)
Personally, it could be easily argued that the Apple II was an “early” Apple... You definitely have an “early” model TextBlade since most people would reasonably state that prior to releasing a version 1.0 of a product, anything before that counts as early (although Waytools seem to be trying to stretch that by sheer passage of time, if nothing else..)
Personally, it could be easily argued that the Apple II was an “early” Apple...
As I said, the very first version of the TB we got could be considered an early release candidate. That doesn't mean anything with the word "early" means it is a "prototype".
And you give a great example of this as you say you could call the Apple II was an "early" Apple. But people don't call it a "prototype". Here is a good explanation:
After seeing a crude, wire-wrapped prototype demonstrated by Wozniak and Steve Jobs in November 1976,[12] Byte predicted in April 1977 that the Apple II "may be the first product to fully qualify as the 'appliance computer' ... a completed system which is purchased off the retail shelf, taken home, plugged in and used".
I think that is exactly the impression those who use the term "prototype" want to convey - a very rough device with no polish.
But the TB, even going back to 2016, was nothing like that. They may have had issues (a little on the hardware side, mostly to do with firmware - and some key parts of that were the fault of computer systems, not WT, though they worked to minimize it anyway). No, what we got from the very beginning was extremely polish hardware. The impression was similar to the difference you would one see in the fit and polish of many American cars years ago while those from Japan, for example, were much better in this area.
Good grief is there still an argument over this point?
@TBD; Gmadden is not the enemy here. He has always dealt straight with other customers.
WT can call their current version "the pre-post release unicorn-fairy-production-mould-clap-your-hands if you believe in textblades" version and it would still be an example of the yet to finished product a small sample of which have gone out to a contracted group of testers.
WT, any chance of letting me know whether you will be publishing the next Tech update before 2019-06-21 or not?
All these 'look to the skies' responses sound a bit clueless, so if you could actually trot out a simple answer to your customers that would be constructive.
edit
I think that is exactly the impression those who use the term "prototype" want to convey - a very rough device with no polish.
Brrap mindreading again. Sigh, this is a oldie but a goody. This fallacy, which is a corruption of stasis theory, where you speculate about another's emotions, thoughts, motivations and then claim to understand these clearly, occasionally more completely than the person in question knows themselves. The rhetor use this fallacious argument as a basis to construct further arguments for or against a given standpoint.
Pretty sure I said what I think it was about. Unlike some other posters here who declare their opinions to be absolute fact.
Would have been nice if you were as concerned about mind reading when people were claiming Treg members suffered from "Stockholm syndrome", or that we were brown-nosing, or were afraid of having our units turned off, or that we worked for WayTools, etc, etc, etc.
@TBD; Gmadden is not the enemy here. He has always dealt straight with other customers.
WT can call their current version "the pre-post release unicorn-fairy-production-mould-clap-your-hands if you believe in textblades" version and it would still be an example of the yet to finished product a small sample of which have gone out to a contracted group of testers.
Didnt say he was an enemy - not at all - just looking for real information and calling BS where I see it. Again with @gmadden's reply, its all hypotheticals to spin a rationale for why Waytools wont ship, but he didnt say anything specific. Both @gmadden and Kahuna constantly repeat anecdotes that unspecified problems with unnamed 'other' Treg testers justify ongoing delays, but those testers and the specific issues are nowhere to be found. Kahuna and gmadden both report that the device works for them.
I did find this interesting:
>In the early stages, a couple of problems I reported were my use of the product and there weren’t any faults - all resolved through training/documentation.
Apparently the Textblade is so difficult to use, it took a user a significant amount of time/effort just to realize he was just doing it wrong and his bug reports were erroneous. How is the v2 firmware going to resolve that?
I want to hear from a Treg tester that says the device is not working for them and explain why exactly.
Apparently the Textblade is so difficult to use, it took a user a significant amount of time/effort just to realize he was just doing it wrong and his bug reports were erroneous. How is the v2 firmware going to resolve that?
Good grief, you do like to exaggerate.
You can take TB out of the box and start typing (after pairing), like a regular keyboard. Oh, you have to get used to the fact that numbers and most symbols are on the green layer, but it isn't hard to understand. Just an adjustment period.
But, yeah, the TB lets you do so much, it can get confusing as you try to do everything at first - which means a lot of things other keyboards just don't do! So just don't rush into everything too fast. I can think of a few things that they probably could have explained better when Treg first started. But here's the thing - in the first phone call with Mark, he told me (so probably other testers too) that part of what they wanted us to help with was how to make the documentation the best it could be.
So the testing was also about the documentation. Isn't that great that they thought to involved ordinary customers? A LOT of tech documentation sucks because they don't do that.
...People just using terms to promote their personal view.
My understanding is that it is acknowledged by all parties that objectively, final production units ("General Release") have not yet been sent to anyone. On that basis the only possible reason to claim that "units have shipped to customers" is to attempt to obfuscate.
Seems to me the only people trying to promote their personal view are WT and, possibly, DBK.
So you think using terms like “prototype” isn’t misleading?
btw, at certain times, if the units we had turned out to be satisfactory, those would have been our final units. It is only because of the paint that we know these won’t be.
Frankly, I think using any term when responding to you is misleading, because you refuse on principle to have any agreed definitions for any part of the English language. However, that wasn't my point. I didn't use the term prototype. My interpretation of that word and yours may or may not differ, in much the same way as our definition of a table may differ. It has no relevance to my post.
Let me break it down for you:
Everyone, even WT and you, agree that what TREG testers currently possess are not final units. I'm not arguing about WT's intent - I understand that they could have been final units, but you have acknowledged that it has transpired that they are not.
WT uses the phrase "shipped units to customers" to mean that they have shipped pre-general release units to a subset of people who have paid for and ultimately hope to receive final units. This is an accurate use of language, but in a very literal fashion, using the broadest of possible definitions. While it may be literally true that units have been shipped to customers, that description would also apply had WT delivered a box of chocolates to my mother. She is a customer of many companies (but not WT) and a box of chocolates could be described as a "unit". Yes of course I am reducing to the absurd, but it is to try to explain a point. WT have delivered units to customers, but that in its most literal interpretation can mean almost anything. Now to how most interpret it:
When WT say they have "shipped units to customers" many (most?) of the general public would assume that meant that final units have been sent to and received by people who had paid for those specific units, that final product has been, and is continuing to be delivered in a timely fashion to all customers. You may argue (and probably will) that this interpretation is entirely the fault and responsibility of Joe Public, but it remains the current state of affairs - this is the understood definition of the phrase, and no amount of bluster in this forum about how the rest of the world are idiots is likely to change that understood definition.
Given the phrase is open to misinterpretation, it would seem wise for WT to somehow clarify their terminology.
Nevertheless, having had it pointed out to WT on numerous occasions by many individuals that their language is likely to be misinterpreted, they continue to use this phraseology ["units shipped to customers"].
Regardless of the initial motivation for employing this phrase, the fact the phrase continues to be used when the company knows this phrase is liable to misinterpretation suggests that the company is intentionally trying to deceive.
I'm not suggesting that WT meant to deceive initially (that cannot be determined on the basis of the evidence available). I am however suggesting that the company is currently engaged in practices which do deceive, and which they continue to engage in despite having been given opportunity to alter said practices.
> Frankly, I think using any term when responding to you is misleading, because you refuse on principle to have any agreed definitions for any part of the English language.
Nope. I have, in fact, regularly pointed out how people misused terms ("prototype" being a real example) or how they would insist upon only one meaning - the one that agreed with them - and refusing to consider others.
> WT uses the phrase "shipped units to customers" to mean that they have shipped pre-general release units to a subset of people who have paid for and ultimately hope to receive final units.
Again, at various points, if it wasn't for finding problems, units we got were hoped to be the final units. It wasn't until the paint issue came up and WT didn't want to create a whole bunch of new keycaps (because they had done so twice and didn't want to risk doing it again in case another issue popped up), that we knew our units were not final. But even then, it could be the units we have now are final except they'll replace the key caps that have the new paint. So maybe just "mostly final". Personally, I'm hoping they do send all new ones, even if nothing else is changed, because while I can change the keycaps, I prefer not to have to just to get the new caps. Maybe the update will let us know if anything else had to be changed.
> When WT say they have "shipped units to customers" many (most?) of the general public would assume that meant that final units have been sent to and received by people who had paid for those specific units, that final product has been, and is continuing to be delivered in a timely fashion to all customers.
Well, the first part of that is reasonable, but not the the last - since they have said they are being shipped to Treg testers, not as GR. On the present status page, there are 14 references to Treg! Including this: "Ship windows indicate estimated timeframe when your TextBlade is planned to ship. Finer dates will be posted once Engineering has confirmed TREG user results for General Release." So what is this "understood definition" when that context is included? BTW, I'll remind you that when the status page had the headline that said something like, "TextBlades Shipped", I objected - and they changed it - because even though the rest of the text made clear they were to Treg testers, being a headline it was, in fact, inappropriate.
> Nevertheless, having had it pointed out to WT on numerous occasions by many individuals that their language is likely to be misinterpreted, they continue to use this phraseology ["units shipped to customers"]. I have no problem with some rephrasing. Maybe something like, "units shipped to selected customers who are in our test group". Because we are customers. But "selected customers" would immediately show it is not a general release without needing to read even a little further for the full context.
On the present status page, there are 14 references to Treg! Including this: "Ship windows indicate estimated timeframe when your TextBlade is planned to ship. Finer dates will be posted once Engineering has confirmed TREG user results for General Release."
...I have no problem with some rephrasing. Maybe something like, "units shipped to selected customers who are in our test group". Because we are customers. But "selected customers" would immediately show it is not a general release without needing to read even a little further for the full context.
Two issues with the status page. First, It's a page you only get to see if you have an outstanding order. So if you are a potential customer, you don't get all these references to TREG. Try opening the webpage without cookies and you'll see I'm right. Indeed, I can't find any reference to a test group or any implication that this is anything other than an active product that is currently being shipped in its final state if I access the site without cookies enabled (i.e. as a potential new customer). Second, on this status page the 14 references to TREG are within 3771 words, so while 14 may seem like a lot, as a proportion of the whole it really isn't.
Nevertheless, I note you agree some gentle rephrasing might be in order. Why, if not to muddy the waters, do you think therefore that WT continue to avoid rephrasing?
Pretty sure I said what I think it was about. Unlike some other posters here who declare their opinions to be absolute fact.
Would have been nice if you were as concerned about mind reading when people were claiming Treg members suffered from "Stockholm syndrome", or that we were brown-nosing, or were afraid of having our units turned off, or that we worked for WayTools, etc, etc, etc.
Speculation is speculation. That others may engage in it does not make yours evaporate.
And as I have been at pains to point out, despite WT's best mud slinging, I am not other people.
Treg members suffered from "Stockholm syndrome"
Who knows? I think you would need a qualified person to make a diagnosis, and some clinical conditions i suspect. It's almost impossible to falsify as an argument so it's not tremendously productive, however many points of similarity between the behaviours there are.
or that we were brown-nosing,
I think, that charge was directed at some more than others. Speculation is often made at the point of publication of a particularly florid piece by a new TREG applicant as to the likelihood of admission to TREG based on the content of the posting. That speculation is correct more often than not.
or were afraid of having our units turned off
That sanction (removal of service and property recall) is in the NDA. I don't know whether the "we" in this instance would be afraid of that. I would suggest that putting so much time into the success of a product that even years into physically holding one or more prototypical versions that could be taken away entirely at the discretion of it's actual owners must be an interesting calculus. The way I read the NDA your don't have to actually do anything "wrong" to lose your unit(s). This is not to say that you will all suddenly find your units failing to connect and letters requiring you to return the property on loan, that would be a less than good outcome for all of us, but that possibilty lies on within the term of a contract that exists between TREG members and WT.
or that we worked for WayTools,
Payment in kind arguments, and why WT seem reluctant to call TREG members "testers" to one side (these have been discussed at length before), WT themselves seem to have a their own criteria for defining who is working for whom. If that criteria is applied to some TREG members they "must be working for pro-PR" (as opposed to the term WT use) because they conform to the criteria that WT have set out I would not be so crass as to fling WT's own absurd circular logic in this matter back at you, I don't hold you at fault for WT's behaviour.
Less than a week to go before May ends. Rolanbek, what is the significance of the 21st of June, given that is well after May ends?
WT_S being silent is a good sign. Oh, we all know MK is reading, and biting his tongue, but at least he (currently) avoiding the Trump tweet syndrome and is hopefully busy with that.... update.
Less than a week to go before May ends. Rolanbek, what is the significance of the 21st of June, given that is well after May ends?
WT_S being silent is a good sign. Oh, we all know MK is reading, and biting his tongue, but at least he (currently) avoiding the Trump tweet syndrome and is hopefully busy with that.... update.
You can read about the significance of the date on the TextBlade subReddit...
Oh, come on DBK. Please stop trying to defend incorrect behavior.
If you put together: a) how misleading the availability page is b) the repeated mentions of "shipping to customers" c) how many times, many individuals pointed out that those 2 are very misleading d) nothing has changed in the availability page, nor the claim of "shipping to customers". Your suggested changes would help.
So, as they cannot claim innocence as both have been pointed out repeatedly, what alternatives remain ? 1- They couldn't care less. The whole point is to deceive unsuspecting potential customers. 2- They don't have a basic grasp of the language 3- They have decided to ignore us, and move forward, (but would that not brings us again to point 1 or 2 ?)
Right or wrong, they know for a fact that the repeated mentions of "shipping to customers", upsets their customers, so why do it anyway ??? Alienating your own customers is strange and not smart behavior in any company.
Comments
Yes
Yes
Yes, as below.
In the past, Yes. No TREG reports of this for a very long time. It was not a permanent brick. Maybe more like plasterboard
Depends how it bricked.
No. I think the premise here is false. Upgrading the firmware post release has not been the hold up. It is triage and resolution of ‘issues’.
They have. I get the impression you don’t like the chosen answer.
Yes
Not the upgrade itself, all the stuff around it for many thousands of (potential) customers with (un-triaged) issues.
Impressively elaborate if that is the case.
No
Edit: line breaks on mobile aren’t playing nice. Is there a way to HTML edit on mobile?
You are such a lying lunatic shill.
Yes no yes no - 'all the stuff around it' - thousands of potential customers with un-triaged issues. What are you talking about? My questions were asked to you in the context of your prior reply indicating that you use the keyboard every day with multiple devices and have no issues.
Why do Treg people report that the device works and there are no issues, but when asked to articulate why Waytools refuses to ship, the Treg people all fall back to the hypothetical potential for 'issues' in order to defend Waytools?
Its BS.
Have an opinion? Yes - ok, what is it?
Why does your keyboard work perfectly, and WT has firmware update process all worked out, but they cant ship the keyboard?
And now Kahuna reminds us all that the hardware isnt even finished - needs new paint somewhere. I wonder whats in those 'two pallets' then? A bunch of devices that have to be disassembled so they can be re-painted? (If it even works that way - more likely is that these plastics have to be re-molded, at least if they are making something of any quality, like a good mechanical keyboard that has double molded keycaps so the letters dont fade with use)
The inconsistent statements of Treggers over whether the device does or doesn't work properly is disturbing.
Sometimes I feel we dealing with a bunch of Treglodites, other times they seem like Tregular folks.
Still, the ongoing saga makes it feel like a Shakespearean Tregedy starring No True Macbethton and his band of merry men who steal from the rich and give to the poor Treggers in King Arthur’s Nottingbeef Forest, where Oliver Twist lives to one day type on a TextBlade and turns to DBK and says “please sir, can I ‘ave some more?”, whereupon McNaughton barks NO is his McNaughtoniest voice ever.
See? The ridiculous turns out to be more plausible than GR ever reaching GR status, or the May Nopedate arriving in May without expectedly predictable non-vague delay.
I bet McNaughton regrets giving AI a chance to review the unavailable Tregblade... he is paying dearly.
First, 3 years ago was May 26, 2016, so let's start a bit sooner - March 28, 2016, which is when the first TB arrived. Even that was not an "early version" of the TextBlade. It was an early release candidate, but that is quite different and happens long after the prototype stage. At the time, WayTools was expecting us to test it a few weeks and then they'd release it. Turns out we found problems, but that doesn't change the fact that it wasn't a prototype.
Second, the TextBlade I'm using isn't from 3 years ago anyway. The testing process sometimes involves replacing a defective unit. Or replacing with one that has some update in the hardware. Or even if one got accidentally broken. I've had a number of them and I'm almost positive every Treg member has been sent a new version much more recently. So this one is nowhere near 3 years old. But hey, claiming something that you literally don't know about is your best thing!
2. This is a perfect example of you having trouble keeping track. Because there have been plenty of posts from Treg people that, while it works well, they have or know of other Treg members who have issues.
3. Part of the firmware update process is to get it up to parity before shipping. They've said this multiple times.
I’m not going to list out a whole theoretical triage decision tree here, an ability to respond to issues reported by customers must be taken in to account holistically. The whole process rather than focusing only on one aspect. It’s more than installing an update.
What is a high priority issue?
Is it user or hardware or software or environmental faults?
Do we need better documentation in this area?
Can we get logs of it?
Is there a known fix or does it require investigation?
Does the current code base support the change required?
Are there hardware constraints with the fix?
Can our regression tests cover it?
Did it break something else?
No one wants their issue ending on a backlog of never resolved items.
Having a current state of ‘no problems’ does not mean I haven’t had problems in the past or that I won’t in the future. Problems some had reported I hadn’t been able to replicate for months afterward.
In the early stages, a couple of problems I reported were my use of the product and there weren’t any faults - all resolved through training/documentation.
My response is my opinion. If you don’t want to believe that, you are most welcome to ignore it.
As far as I’m aware the short answers would’ve been answered elsewhere.
‘heard of someone running a [TextBlade] firmware update?’ Surprised that needed to be asked.
Edit: fixed a mis-quote
The only reason they mightn’t be considered “early” is because we’re 4+ years past the date of announcing that release was imminent (heavily representing that case...)
Personally, it could be easily argued that the Apple II was an “early” Apple... You definitely have an “early” model TextBlade since most people would reasonably state that prior to releasing a version 1.0 of a product, anything before that counts as early (although Waytools seem to be trying to stretch that by sheer passage of time, if nothing else..)
And you give a great example of this as you say you could call the Apple II was an "early" Apple. But people don't call it a "prototype". Here is a good explanation:
But the TB, even going back to 2016, was nothing like that. They may have had issues (a little on the hardware side, mostly to do with firmware - and some key parts of that were the fault of computer systems, not WT, though they worked to minimize it anyway). No, what we got from the very beginning was extremely polish hardware. The impression was similar to the difference you would one see in the fit and polish of many American cars years ago while those from Japan, for example, were much better in this area.
@TBD; Gmadden is not the enemy here. He has always dealt straight with other customers.
WT can call their current version "the pre-post release unicorn-fairy-production-mould-clap-your-hands if you believe in textblades" version and it would still be an example of the yet to finished product a small sample of which have gone out to a contracted group of testers.
WT, any chance of letting me know whether you will be publishing the next Tech update before 2019-06-21 or not?
All these 'look to the skies' responses sound a bit clueless, so if you could actually trot out a simple answer to your customers that would be constructive.
edit
Brrap mindreading again. Sigh, this is a oldie but a goody. This fallacy, which is a corruption of stasis theory, where you speculate about another's emotions, thoughts, motivations and then claim to understand these clearly, occasionally more completely than the person in question knows themselves. The rhetor use this fallacious argument as a basis to construct further arguments for or against a given standpoint.
R
Would have been nice if you were as concerned about mind reading when people were claiming Treg members suffered from "Stockholm syndrome", or that we were brown-nosing, or were afraid of having our units turned off, or that we worked for WayTools, etc, etc, etc.
I did find this interesting:
>In the early stages, a couple of problems I reported were my use of the product and there weren’t any faults - all resolved through training/documentation.
Apparently the Textblade is so difficult to use, it took a user a significant amount of time/effort just to realize he was just doing it wrong and his bug reports were erroneous. How is the v2 firmware going to resolve that?
I want to hear from a Treg tester that says the device is not working for them and explain why exactly.
You can take TB out of the box and start typing (after pairing), like a regular keyboard. Oh, you have to get used to the fact that numbers and most symbols are on the green layer, but it isn't hard to understand. Just an adjustment period.
But, yeah, the TB lets you do so much, it can get confusing as you try to do everything at first - which means a lot of things other keyboards just don't do! So just don't rush into everything too fast. I can think of a few things that they probably could have explained better when Treg first started. But here's the thing - in the first phone call with Mark, he told me (so probably other testers too) that part of what they wanted us to help with was how to make the documentation the best it could be.
So the testing was also about the documentation. Isn't that great that they thought to involved ordinary customers? A LOT of tech documentation sucks because they don't do that.
I didn't use the term prototype. My interpretation of that word and yours may or may not differ, in much the same way as our definition of a table may differ. It has no relevance to my post.
Let me break it down for you:
- Everyone, even WT and you, agree that what TREG testers currently possess are not final units. I'm not arguing about WT's intent - I understand that they could have been final units, but you have acknowledged that it has transpired that they are not.
- WT uses the phrase "shipped units to customers" to mean that they have shipped pre-general release units to a subset of people who have paid for and ultimately hope to receive final units. This is an accurate use of language, but in a very literal fashion, using the broadest of possible definitions. While it may be literally true that units have been shipped to customers, that description would also apply had WT delivered a box of chocolates to my mother. She is a customer of many companies (but not WT) and a box of chocolates could be described as a "unit". Yes of course I am reducing to the absurd, but it is to try to explain a point. WT have delivered units to customers, but that in its most literal interpretation can mean almost anything. Now to how most interpret it:
- When WT say they have "shipped units to customers" many (most?) of the general public would assume that meant that final units have been sent to and received by people who had paid for those specific units, that final product has been, and is continuing to be delivered in a timely fashion to all customers. You may argue (and probably will) that this interpretation is entirely the fault and responsibility of Joe Public, but it remains the current state of affairs - this is the understood definition of the phrase, and no amount of bluster in this forum about how the rest of the world are idiots is likely to change that understood definition.
- Given the phrase is open to misinterpretation, it would seem wise for WT to somehow clarify their terminology.
- Nevertheless, having had it pointed out to WT on numerous occasions by many individuals that their language is likely to be misinterpreted, they continue to use this phraseology ["units shipped to customers"].
- Regardless of the initial motivation for employing this phrase, the fact the phrase continues to be used when the company knows this phrase is liable to misinterpretation suggests that the company is intentionally trying to deceive.
I'm not suggesting that WT meant to deceive initially (that cannot be determined on the basis of the evidence available). I am however suggesting that the company is currently engaged in practices which do deceive, and which they continue to engage in despite having been given opportunity to alter said practices.Nope. I have, in fact, regularly pointed out how people misused terms ("prototype" being a real example) or how they would insist upon only one meaning - the one that agreed with them - and refusing to consider others.
> WT uses the phrase "shipped units to customers" to mean that they have shipped pre-general release units to a subset of people who have paid for and ultimately hope to receive final units.
Again, at various points, if it wasn't for finding problems, units we got were hoped to be the final units. It wasn't until the paint issue came up and WT didn't want to create a whole bunch of new keycaps (because they had done so twice and didn't want to risk doing it again in case another issue popped up), that we knew our units were not final. But even then, it could be the units we have now are final except they'll replace the key caps that have the new paint. So maybe just "mostly final". Personally, I'm hoping they do send all new ones, even if nothing else is changed, because while I can change the keycaps, I prefer not to have to just to get the new caps. Maybe the update will let us know if anything else had to be changed.
> When WT say they have "shipped units to customers" many (most?) of the general public would assume that meant that final units have been sent to and received by people who had paid for those specific units, that final product has been, and is continuing to be delivered in a timely fashion to all customers.
Well, the first part of that is reasonable, but not the the last - since they have said they are being shipped to Treg testers, not as GR. On the present status page, there are 14 references to Treg! Including this: "Ship windows indicate estimated timeframe when your TextBlade is planned to ship. Finer dates will be posted once Engineering has confirmed TREG user results for General Release."
So what is this "understood definition" when that context is included? BTW, I'll remind you that when the status page had the headline that said something like, "TextBlades Shipped", I objected - and they changed it - because even though the rest of the text made clear they were to Treg testers, being a headline it was, in fact, inappropriate.
> Nevertheless, having had it pointed out to WT on numerous occasions by many individuals that their language is likely to be misinterpreted, they continue to use this phraseology ["units shipped to customers"].
I have no problem with some rephrasing. Maybe something like, "units shipped to selected customers who are in our test group". Because we are customers. But "selected customers" would immediately show it is not a general release without needing to read even a little further for the full context.
First, It's a page you only get to see if you have an outstanding order. So if you are a potential customer, you don't get all these references to TREG. Try opening the webpage without cookies and you'll see I'm right. Indeed, I can't find any reference to a test group or any implication that this is anything other than an active product that is currently being shipped in its final state if I access the site without cookies enabled (i.e. as a potential new customer).
Second, on this status page the 14 references to TREG are within 3771 words, so while 14 may seem like a lot, as a proportion of the whole it really isn't.
Nevertheless, I note you agree some gentle rephrasing might be in order. Why, if not to muddy the waters, do you think therefore that WT continue to avoid rephrasing?
And as I have been at pains to point out, despite WT's best mud slinging, I am not other people.
Who knows? I think you would need a qualified person to make a diagnosis, and some clinical conditions i suspect. It's almost impossible to falsify as an argument so it's not tremendously productive, however many points of similarity between the behaviours there are.
I think, that charge was directed at some more than others. Speculation is often made at the point of publication of a particularly florid piece by a new TREG applicant as to the likelihood of admission to TREG based on the content of the posting. That speculation is correct more often than not.
That sanction (removal of service and property recall) is in the NDA. I don't know whether the "we" in this instance would be afraid of that. I would suggest that putting so much time into the success of a product that even years into physically holding one or more prototypical versions that could be taken away entirely at the discretion of it's actual owners must be an interesting calculus. The way I read the NDA your don't have to actually do anything "wrong" to lose your unit(s). This is not to say that you will all suddenly find your units failing to connect and letters requiring you to return the property on loan, that would be a less than good outcome for all of us, but that possibilty lies on within the term of a contract that exists between TREG members and WT.
Payment in kind arguments, and why WT seem reluctant to call TREG members "testers" to one side (these have been discussed at length before), WT themselves seem to have a their own criteria for defining who is working for whom. If that criteria is applied to some TREG members they "must be working for pro-PR" (as opposed to the term WT use) because they conform to the criteria that WT have set out I would not be so crass as to fling WT's own absurd circular logic in this matter back at you, I don't hold you at fault for WT's behaviour.
R
WT_S being silent is a good sign. Oh, we all know MK is reading, and biting his tongue, but at least he (currently) avoiding the Trump tweet syndrome and is hopefully busy with that.... update.
Oh, come on DBK. Please stop trying to defend incorrect behavior.
If you put together:
a) how misleading the availability page is
b) the repeated mentions of "shipping to customers"
c) how many times, many individuals pointed out that those 2 are very misleading
d) nothing has changed in the availability page, nor the claim of "shipping to customers". Your suggested changes would help.
So, as they cannot claim innocence as both have been pointed out repeatedly, what alternatives remain ?
1- They couldn't care less. The whole point is to deceive unsuspecting potential customers.
2- They don't have a basic grasp of the language
3- They have decided to ignore us, and move forward, (but would that not brings us again to point 1 or 2 ?)
Right or wrong, they know for a fact that the repeated mentions of "shipping to customers", upsets their customers, so why do it anyway ???
Alienating your own customers is strange and not smart behavior in any company.