Developers talk about being 'Sherlocked' as Apple uses them 'for market research'

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 68
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 1,919member
    Every silver-lining has a cloud eh William?

    We criticise other platforms for rushing out half-arsed ‘solutions’ but when our own believers do the same they should be treated differently.

    The truth is, if these were genuine innovations the innovators would be able to pursue Apple for stolen IP though Apple would likely have bought them already.  Or the Apple solution would pale in comparison and fail.  More than likely these are ridiculous hackerware ideas which weren’t particularly successful before Apple ‘Sherlocked’ them and ultimately they’ll Sherlock themselves by suffering the same fate for which they can always blame Apple.

    More tellingly it demonstrates Apple is following the industry into an innovation hole when it has to copy bad ideas and the pinnacle of its achievements are a different colour scheme and adding a new Intel chip.

    So yes, every-silver lining has a cloud.
    dasanman69
  • Reply 42 of 68
    n2itivguyn2itivguy Posts: 103member
    I’m surprised this hasn’t happened yet with 1Password. 
    toysandmewatto_cobra
  • Reply 43 of 68
    It still baffles me that, at the current pace of technological advancement, some reputable developers hope to make a livelihood over a single piece of software, for decades!

    There is no other market where someone expects to live off an idea, without anyone else following on the bandwagon. Unless the concept is under IP protection, which in this case, it wasn’t.

    Funny thing though, I’m pretty sure now, that Apple is offering it, some obscure patent will appear, and the lawsuits will fly!
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 44 of 68
    AppleExposedAppleExposed Posts: 1,805unconfirmed, member
    gatorguy said:
    MacPro said:
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    lkrupp said:
    Developers compete with Apple by making their products better than Apple’s. Apple’s products usually provide just enough functionality to be useful. We hear from users here all the time about how superior some app is to Apple’s offering. And as the article points out, these developers saw this coming a mile away and were prepared for it.
    Apparently Luna wasn't having misread Apple's intent when they asked for a demo and for a number of Luna dongles.

    As a business owner myself I've learned to be cautious when big companies ask for in-depth explanations and sample of my products while leaving the impression they are a potential customer or partner.  I've been Sherlocked myself in the past and it's not a warm fuzzy feeling when you anticipate business from a supposed friendly company only to find it was all about competing with you to begin with.

    Like how Google sherlocked Apple.

    In what way? I'm guessing you don't know what Sherlocking is (or do but wanted to get a Google comment in anyway) and confusing it with mimic or influenced by.
    Haha ... He knew and was accurate.

    Haha. I knew he'd play clueless about Google even after his long rant about partnering with and trusting outside companies with your ideas.

    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    lkrupp said:
    Developers compete with Apple by making their products better than Apple’s. Apple’s products usually provide just enough functionality to be useful. We hear from users here all the time about how superior some app is to Apple’s offering. And as the article points out, these developers saw this coming a mile away and were prepared for it.
    Apparently Luna wasn't having misread Apple's intent when they asked for a demo and for a number of Luna dongles.

    As a business owner myself I've learned to be cautious when big companies ask for in-depth explanations and sample of my products while leaving the impression they are a potential customer or partner.  I've been Sherlocked myself in the past and it's not a warm fuzzy feeling when you anticipate business from a supposed friendly company only to find it was all about competing with you to begin with.

    Like how Google sherlocked Apple.

    In what way? I'm guessing you don't know what Sherlocking is (or do but wanted to get a Google comment in anyway) and confusing it with mimic or influenced by completely ripping off.
    Fixed it for ya.


    Another person who doesn't know what Sherlocking is? I guess I shouldn't be surprised but hard to believe you don't know. 

    Oh wait even if having nothing to do with the article, was that meant to show how Google made a replica of the original iPhone? Hmmm... I'm not seeing it. I don't think anyone else will either. 

    By the way who made that phone as I don't recognize it? Was it the old HTC-designed one, "Dream" or something like that?

    "I've been Sherlocked myself in the past and it's not a warm fuzzy feeling when you anticipate business from a supposed friendly company only to find it was all about competing with you to begin with."

    Your definition. Sound familiar?
    Ummm... I don't think Google dumped Apple services nor tried to replace a service Apple was providing Google with one of their own. Any chance of getting back on topic or are you still on a Google sideline binge to distract from the real discussion?

    It's self-explanatory. I even used your own definition.

    How far are you willing to move the goalposts?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 45 of 68
    kevin keekevin kee Posts: 1,291member
    As a consumer, if Apple can "built-in" some of the greatest Apps made and make it available for free, I would be extremely happy. As a developer though not so much, but I hope Apple either:
    1. make the way it works slightly different, OR
    2. compensate the developer somehow (not necessarily monetary).
    edited June 2019 watto_cobra
  • Reply 46 of 68
    marklarkmarklark Posts: 28member

    One of my favorite things that got "Sherlocked" was Konfabulator.  Ironically, it was replaced by Apple's Dashboard widgets -- which Apple is leaving out of OS X Catalina.  :^/
  • Reply 47 of 68
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,469member
    gatorguy said:
    MacPro said:
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    lkrupp said:
    Developers compete with Apple by making their products better than Apple’s. Apple’s products usually provide just enough functionality to be useful. We hear from users here all the time about how superior some app is to Apple’s offering. And as the article points out, these developers saw this coming a mile away and were prepared for it.
    Apparently Luna wasn't having misread Apple's intent when they asked for a demo and for a number of Luna dongles.

    As a business owner myself I've learned to be cautious when big companies ask for in-depth explanations and sample of my products while leaving the impression they are a potential customer or partner.  I've been Sherlocked myself in the past and it's not a warm fuzzy feeling when you anticipate business from a supposed friendly company only to find it was all about competing with you to begin with.

    Like how Google sherlocked Apple.

    In what way? I'm guessing you don't know what Sherlocking is (or do but wanted to get a Google comment in anyway) and confusing it with mimic or influenced by.
    Haha ... He knew and was accurate.

    Haha. I knew he'd play clueless about Google even after his long rant about partnering with and trusting outside companies with your ideas.

    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    lkrupp said:
    Developers compete with Apple by making their products better than Apple’s. Apple’s products usually provide just enough functionality to be useful. We hear from users here all the time about how superior some app is to Apple’s offering. And as the article points out, these developers saw this coming a mile away and were prepared for it.
    Apparently Luna wasn't having misread Apple's intent when they asked for a demo and for a number of Luna dongles.

    As a business owner myself I've learned to be cautious when big companies ask for in-depth explanations and sample of my products while leaving the impression they are a potential customer or partner.  I've been Sherlocked myself in the past and it's not a warm fuzzy feeling when you anticipate business from a supposed friendly company only to find it was all about competing with you to begin with.

    Like how Google sherlocked Apple.

    In what way? I'm guessing you don't know what Sherlocking is (or do but wanted to get a Google comment in anyway) and confusing it with mimic or influenced by completely ripping off.
    Fixed it for ya.


    Another person who doesn't know what Sherlocking is? I guess I shouldn't be surprised but hard to believe you don't know. 

    Oh wait even if having nothing to do with the article, was that meant to show how Google made a replica of the original iPhone? Hmmm... I'm not seeing it. I don't think anyone else will either. 

    By the way who made that phone as I don't recognize it? Was it the old HTC-designed one, "Dream" or something like that?

    "I've been Sherlocked myself in the past and it's not a warm fuzzy feeling when you anticipate business from a supposed friendly company only to find it was all about competing with you to begin with."

    Your definition. Sound familiar?
    Ummm... I don't think Google dumped Apple services nor tried to replace a service Apple was providing Google with one of their own. Any chance of getting back on topic or are you still on a Google sideline binge to distract from the real discussion?

    It's self-explanatory. I even used your own definition.

    How far are you willing to move the goalposts?
    You should REALLY take a minute and read the AI article to see how Sherlocking is defined. You're not understanding. 

    Sherlocking in my case is another company approaching me seemingly to order product or services but in actuality figuring out how I'm doing/pricing something in order to compete or replace me.  That's part of what Sherlocking is. Apple approached Google for it's services, not the other way around. There are no services Apple is supplying Google AFAIK making it by definition impossible for Google to "Sherlock Apple" tho Apple can certainly do so to Google and may. 

    Could you please make more of an effort to understand a term before arguing about it? I'll even point you in the right direction so you don't keep dragging this thread off into something else entirely simply because you don't know any better. 
    https://www.howtogeek.com/297651/what-does-it-mean-when-a-company-sherlocks-an-app/
    edited June 2019 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 48 of 68
    davgregdavgreg Posts: 983member
    Duet allows users without the gizmo bar of the laptop to see and use it. Wonder if Apple has that on Sidecar

  • Reply 49 of 68
    petripetri Posts: 107member
    asdasd said:
    Sherlock wasn't even Sherlocked.

    I was thinking the same - all of these third party apps, including “Watson”, are just doing really obvious things that should and would have been in Apple’s roadmap anyway.  They got in first and made some money, good for them, but the idea that should give them perpetual rights to the concept of putting a calculator on an IOS device, or building internet search into a desktop OS, is ludicrous.  Apple have every right to do those things, and yes it’s only natural that they’re able to do them better too.

    normmwatto_cobra
  • Reply 50 of 68
    sfolaxsfolax Posts: 49member
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    lkrupp said:
    Developers compete with Apple by making their products better than Apple’s. Apple’s products usually provide just enough functionality to be useful. We hear from users here all the time about how superior some app is to Apple’s offering. And as the article points out, these developers saw this coming a mile away and were prepared for it.
    Apparently Luna wasn't having misread Apple's intent when they asked for a demo and for a number of Luna dongles.

    As a business owner myself I've learned to be cautious when big companies ask for in-depth explanations and sample of my products while leaving the impression they are a potential customer or partner.  I've been Sherlocked myself in the past and it's not a warm fuzzy feeling when you anticipate business from a supposed friendly company only to find it was all about competing with you to begin with.

    Like how Google sherlocked Apple.

    In what way? I'm guessing you don't know what Sherlocking is (or do but wanted to get a Google comment in anyway) and confusing it with mimic or influenced by completely ripping off.
    Fixed it for ya.


    How many accounts does DED have? This one and also Corrections. 
    Forum rule 1 - Multiple accounts per user are not allowed. 


  • Reply 51 of 68
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,553administrator
    sfolax said:
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    lkrupp said:
    Developers compete with Apple by making their products better than Apple’s. Apple’s products usually provide just enough functionality to be useful. We hear from users here all the time about how superior some app is to Apple’s offering. And as the article points out, these developers saw this coming a mile away and were prepared for it.
    Apparently Luna wasn't having misread Apple's intent when they asked for a demo and for a number of Luna dongles.

    As a business owner myself I've learned to be cautious when big companies ask for in-depth explanations and sample of my products while leaving the impression they are a potential customer or partner.  I've been Sherlocked myself in the past and it's not a warm fuzzy feeling when you anticipate business from a supposed friendly company only to find it was all about competing with you to begin with.

    Like how Google sherlocked Apple.

    In what way? I'm guessing you don't know what Sherlocking is (or do but wanted to get a Google comment in anyway) and confusing it with mimic or influenced by completely ripping off.
    Fixed it for ya.


    How many accounts does DED have? This one and also Corrections. 
    Forum rule 1 - Multiple accounts per user are not allowed. 


    Dan has one account.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 52 of 68
    macxpressmacxpress Posts: 5,418member
    n2itivguy said:
    I’m surprised this hasn’t happened yet with 1Password. 
    Right now, Apple's answer to that is iCloud Keychain which yes, isn't quite the same but does similar things and was released after 1Password came out. This goes to show that a company such as Agilebytes can compete along side of Apple, even if Apple releases something similar to what's already available on the App Store. You just need to up your game and make it bigger and better than what Apple can do. I don't think its Apple's intent to purposely drive all of its developers out of business, but this doesn't mean Apple can't have a version of their own along side. Competition is good, even for the smaller guy and it doesn't mean it can't make something better. 
    edited June 2019 watto_cobra
  • Reply 53 of 68
    EsquireCatsEsquireCats Posts: 1,250member
    Another WWDC and another app developer which claims that apple has stolen their ideas.

    It would really suck to have your main earner made redundant by a free OS upgrade, but how was it ever so vulnerable to begin with?

    • Did the developer not significantly change or enhance the app in 5+ years
    • Did the developer merely implement a widely asked for feature?
    • Did the app itself already have many competitors in the market?
    • Is the concept better implemented at the OS level?
    • Is the concept rather similar to an existing OS feature (e.g. AirPlay)?
    • Is the app merely implementing a feature that used to exist in the OS?
    • Is the app merely implementing a feature that exists in a competitors OS?
    One need only ask themselves these obvious questions to realise when they need to significantly differentiate their offering. You can't just sit around milking the same cow all day.


    watto_cobra
  • Reply 54 of 68
    Oh the one hand I feel bad for AstroPad and Duet Display, On the other hand I actually paid for Avatron's Air Stylus app only to have that functionality rolled into AirDisplay 3 and wasn't given any opportunity to get any sort of discount on that. (And let's be honest, they could have simply renamed AirStylus AirDisplay 3 and put out a new binary in the App Store. (They were roughly the same price) I think I've tried Duet display but wasn't super happy with the performance. AstroPad was quite good but for whatever reason they never did the whole virtual monitor thing without the dongle (despite the fact that Duet did it.)

    I can't remember if AstroPad cost money or if the app was always free, either way I remember I got it as soon as I could, but was never really able to use it because the performance wasn't great. I hear that they got the performance quite good, especially with the Luna dongle, but they did that around the time Affinity Designer and Photo came to the iPad and around the time the Procreate became a better tool to draw in than Photoshop. Realistically sidecar isn't quite as useful as it would have been when the iPad Pro first launched with Pencil. (Though part of that was probably due to Apple's planning. They wanted the drawing apps on iPad to grow and mature and didn't want 'Photoshop on a connected computer' to undercut them. Part of me thinks that Sidecar was put on hold until Adobe finally invested in a native version of Photoshop.

    Realistically I think the time when I would have used Sidecar a whole bunch has passed now that there are some fantastic drawing apps on iPad. Frankly I think the major thing that I might REALLY use Sidecar for would be working in Affinity Designer or Photo on my Mac and wanting to draw something quickly, I might turn on Sidecar and grab my Apple Pencil, drag the window down to the iPad, fill the screen, draw for a little bit, then pull it back up onto my Thunderbolt Monitor to get back to working with a mouse. Part of of me would absolutely love if Serif made a feature where you can have two windows showing the same content but on two different monitors (IE iPad and your Mac's built in or an bigger external) but without actually having to mirror since the aspect ratio etc won't be the same.)

    As far as AstroPad goes, it seems like the guys involved are absolutely amazing at compressing video over a finite connection, they can probably take some of the techniques they developed and sell them to Apple or somebody else. They could also take what they know of working with Apple and develop a kickass drawing App. Given that Apple has Affinity and Pixelmator (as well as Sketch, Acorn and Procreate) making drawing apps for their platforms, they don't seem to be interested in doing a drawing or graphics app. Plus Adobe is ignoring the non-industry market, so there is a really competitive field there that they could play in.

    I feel sorry for them because they were working on a really great feature. But that's also part of the problem, like what Jobs told the Dropbox guys, "You have a feature, not a product." (Though in Dropbox's case Apple and everyone else managed to fumble cloud storage enough that Dropbox turned that feature into a business that I still don't understand how it's survived and thrived.)

    As far as PCalc goes, I think that guy realizes that his market is really people who are willing to pay for a calculator. And that market will always be uniquely small and goofy.  There is only a small number of people who are ever willing to pay for a calculator on a computer.

    I hope AstroPad are able to take some of their code they've written and find a new purpose for it. I also hope that Apple opens up their APIs that make sidecar work so that AstroPad can make a premium version of Sidecar. Though if I were them I wouldn't want to be Apple's beta testers for feature ideas. I'd take pride in knowing that I got sherlocked because I had a great implementation of something that Apple's engineers might not have even known how to design. I'd hold my head high and figure out something else that would be more of a full product than a single feature. (Also I wouldn't try pricing my feature as an expensive subscription. The price for AstroPad Pro really made it something that I was never going to consider as I don't make my living in selling my services as a graphic artist.)
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 55 of 68
    It happens. Ask the developers of Netscape. 
    Wasn’t there also an issue with the DOS version of WordPerfect in the late 80s not having access to hidden MS APIs that Word could access?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 56 of 68
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 2,650member

    elijahg said:
    It happens. Ask the developers of Netscape. 
    And ask Microsoft what happened next. 
    They bundled Internet Explorer to their Windows product, then threatened OEM PC makers with having their licenses to sell Windows revoked if they continued to install Netscape onto their disk images to customers. That's what got Microsoft into legal trouble. These used their market dominance in one area, to strong-arm in another area. 

    Are you suggesting Apple is doing the same? Nope. Completely different scenarios. But yes, they both build a web browser. >clap<
    They were much more sneaky than that. They intentionally broke and added bugs in the APIs that Netscape used in their browser, and MS used undocumented networking APIs to get an advantage over Netscape. Apple uses undocumented (and private) APIs whilst not giving that same access to developers, developers are on a lower tier. If they are found to be using those private APIs, Apple boots them from the App Store which is arguably worse than the situation Netscape had; at least they weren't removed from the platform entirely. That's where the similarities lie with the Netscape vs Microsoft case. But of course your Apple can-do-no-wrong attitude blinds you to that. And to everything else questionable Apple does. 
    avon b7
  • Reply 57 of 68
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    It still baffles me that, at the current pace of technological advancement, some reputable developers hope to make a livelihood over a single piece of software, for decades!

    There is no other market where someone expects to live off an idea, without anyone else following on the bandwagon. Unless the concept is under IP protection, which in this case, it wasn’t.

    Funny thing though, I’m pretty sure now, that Apple is offering it, some obscure patent will appear, and the lawsuits will fly!
    Microsoft wept.
  • Reply 58 of 68
    cmaus said:
    Funny, MacTechNews.de is trying to tell it's readers the term is "being Steved".
    Which one is correct now? 🧐
    "Steved" was the term given to internal projects at Apple that were cancelled by Steve when he was trying to save the company in the late 1990s. "Sherlocked" refers to third party products/software/services that were viewed by Apple as something that should be part of their own offering; most times the third party was no longer able to sell their goods because Apple's (free) version was good enough for a critical mass of people. Nobody has yet mentioned iTunes, which was a product (SoundJam?) that they slightly enhanced and then re-badged after buying the company that developed it.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 59 of 68
    mattinozmattinoz Posts: 1,947member
    It still baffles me that, at the current pace of technological advancement, some reputable developers hope to make a livelihood over a single piece of software, for decades!

    There is no other market where someone expects to live off an idea, without anyone else following on the bandwagon. Unless the concept is under IP protection, which in this case, it wasn’t.

    Funny thing though, I’m pretty sure now, that Apple is offering it, some obscure patent will appear, and the lawsuits will fly!
    There was a stack of patents issued about the time of the iPad orginal release not just sidecar like function but more advanced versions with Mac apps having direct companion apps that it could sideload on to the iPad. Although these seem to maybe relate to xCode or the first watchKit . There still could be useful function I was hoping would come out. Maybe Sidecar 2.
  • Reply 60 of 68
    The third party companies that were making Sidecar-like apps previously were IIRC both keeping the higher quality pen input (ie the thing that was most useful about their apps) as a subscription-only feature.

    So, can't really feel any sympathy or them. If you're making a product that's supposed to turn an iPad into a Wacom tablet, offering the highest quality pen experience is table stakes. If you can't build a business on doing that as a product, rather than a service, maybe you don't actually have a business.
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