All that does is duplicate the actions of the scrollbar. The whole idea of scroll wheels is to give a single finger shortcut to an action that usually requires moving your entire hand. The feature you've just mentioned defeats the entire purpose of a scrollwheel.
A rotary mouse wheel would provide infinite scrolling with a single digit gesture. No other design could accomplish that.
I can think of another design. An analog, pressure-sensitive disk fer christsake. Why does it have to be a dial? Swirling your finger on a dial is just as dumb as stroking a scroll-wheel.
If we had something like the ThinkPad track-point, it would be infinitely better!
I was to lazy to see whether somebody already posted this, but here it is:
the reason that the iPod is so frekin' popular is because of the scroll wheel. Yes, the 20 gig HDD and good looks help, but the scroll wheel works quickly and efficiently, versus the MP3 'jog wheels' on the PC side, which reduce me to frustration rather quickly when trying to browse a large Mp3 library. Rotary mouse-- no new ideas there. The iPod had it all along.
I was to lazy to see whether somebody already posted this, but here it is:
the reason that the iPod is so frekin' popular is because of the scroll wheel. Yes, the 20 gig HDD and good looks help, but the scroll wheel works quickly and efficiently, versus the MP3 'jog wheels' on the PC side, which reduce me to frustration rather quickly when trying to browse a large Mp3 library. Rotary mouse-- no new ideas there. The iPod had it all along.
The rotary dial (as on the iPod) is designed to work best with the thumb because the thumb can make wider lateral movements than a finger. Having a rotary wheel on a mouse for use by the index finger is a bad idea. If implemented correctly, a flat version of the track-point would be better and provide scrolling along two axes.
This might be in line for Apple's bigger push into the pro-sumer video market. The 'jog-dial' is standard fare on most professional VTRs. This new mouse might address the need of video-makers to scrub through video while retaining the point-and-click of a traditional mouse.
As it stands now, I use a Contour ShuttlePro for scrubbing through FinalCut, AFX, QuickTime etc., but have to switch to my other mouse to click on anything. A combination of the two would be welcome, although personally I'd prefer a bit more functionality than this sketch seems to portray.
Could be nice for iMovie/FinalCut Express users though.
I don't know if THIS is what is needed, but Apple NEEDS to come up with new key,mouse,gesturing paradigm to make the OS as useful as it was. OR am I just pouty about having to learn new key strokes???
This might be in line for Apple's bigger push into the pro-sumer video market. The 'jog-dial' is standard fare on most professional VTRs. This new mouse might address the need of video-makers to scrub through video while retaining the point-and-click of a traditional mouse.
Thanks, I was thinking the same thing.
I think this is a great idea. And it's perfect Apple, because they don't want to just cave-in and do the scroll wheel like everyone else.
But two reasons I don't think it will happen:
1. It does seem more stressful on the finger compared to the regular scroll wheel.
2. It doesn't cognitively map on to the scroll bar, which is vertical rather than circular on the computer screen, as well as the regular scroll wheel.
We received a diagram this morning for an Apple iPod, Phone, Mouse.
It seemed a little ridiculous to us at first and something we normally would not post, but as we thought about it, it became the coolest gadget we could think of. While the product seems to be too many things in one, Apple has in fact filed for a patent on a rotary mouse. This anonymous source tells us the following specs:
'Rotary', iPod-style combined button/wheel on top of mouse for scrolling
- 15/30 GB internal hard drive
- Flipside of mouse has Phone and iPod controls
- Mouse wheel/button can be operated when using Phone/iPod
- Hard drive carries users Home folder from computer to computer
The rotary dial (as on the iPod) is designed to work best with the thumb because the thumb can make wider lateral movements than a finger. Having a rotary wheel on a mouse for use by the index finger is a bad idea. If implemented correctly, a flat version of the track-point would be better and provide scrolling along two axes.
The only problem with the track-point is that it doesn't allow continuous scrolling like the dial does. On the other hand, the dial prohibits simultaneous movement on both axes. I'm not sure which solution is better. It depends largely on the context; the dial is great for scrubbing but the track-points is probably better for scrolling.
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
But two reasons I don't think it will happen:
1. It does seem more stressful on the finger compared to the regular scroll wheel.
I'd be curious to see the results of ergonomic tests for both designs. I'm unsure which one is really the most finger-friendly.
Quote:
2. It doesn't cognitively map on to the scroll bar, which is vertical rather than circular on the computer screen, as well as the regular scroll wheel.
Interesting argument. Apple's answer to this seems to be that you can use the dial in a way that maps cognitively to the task at hand. So you'd use it differently depending on whether you scroll vertically or horizontally. Here's an image which is part of the patent application:
'80', '82', and '86' shows the convoluted fingers of an Apple Legal employee. '88' and '90' shows two ways to operate the dial. I'm not sure how the computer knows whether you want to scroll up or down, though, because depending on the side of the dial your finger sits on (left or right), a clockwise movement could mean either up or down.
The patent describes the disadvantages of the traditional scroll wheel mouse:
Unfortunately, the mouse described in FIG. 1 [Traditional Scrollwheel mouse] has several drawbacks.
For example, the scroll wheel is limited in that it only provides a single finger position for accessing the scroll wheel (e.g., same position for left and right handed users).
Furthermore, because only a small portion of the wheel can be used at any one time, the user cannot continuously turn the wheel. That is, the user must scroll, pick up a finger, scroll, pick up a finger, etc. This takes time and can be an annoyance to a user.
In addition, because a portion of the wheel protrudes above the top surface of the mouse, inadvertent or accidental scrolling may occur when one of the two buttons is activated. That is, when the user goes to push the button or when the user switches from one button to the other, the user's finger may also engage the scroll wheel thus causing the wheel to turn when the button is depressed.
Moreover, because the scroll wheel can only be manipulated in one direction, the use of the scroll wheel becomes counter intuitive when scrolling in a different direction in the GUI, as for example directions that are orthogonal thereto. That is, the scroll wheel only moves in one direction and thus it generally corresponds well to vertical scrolling and not horizontal scrolling (or vice versa).
Also, the protruding scroll wheel is not aesthetically pleasing and thus it presents industrial design difficulties.
- An LCD put on the BOTTOM of a mouse is definitely gonna get scratched.
- A HD in a device that's supposed to move around constantly is asking for disk trouble (i don't know how often my mouse bumps or drops off the table, but it definitely happens a few times a week)
- putting my home folder on a USB-or bluetooth connected device ? No way. Too slow. The home folder is where 90% of your documents-related disk activity goes to, so it should be fast.
- phone & mouse in 1 is a stupid idea : if you get a call and want to look up something while on the phone ... "um wait a sec... gotta look it up... [scratchsound for 45 secs]"
- and about the whole rotary issue : it starts from the assumption that the current scroll wheel is unhandy because you can't scroll continuously. Sorry, but that's a silly argment. If you want to scroll continuously, press the scroll arrows on your screen ! The fact that you've gotta lift your finger to rescroll is not a sufficient argument for a rotary mouse. I have NEVER considered the mouse scroll wheel to be finger-stressy.
I think it's an Apple decoy to divert attention away from something we've been discussing lately. Now where's my iFrame hat ? :-)
lol... I can't believe that this thread has racked up over 3000 views... a lot of people care about a mouse with two buttons i suppose
Well, you know, rotary has always been the "prettier" design. Far fewer moving parts than the traditional, piston mice.
I'm not surprised to hear that Apple is trying to come up with a more expressive mouse without just blindly adopting the Windows non-design. I'm not convinced that the dial is significantly better ergonomically, although it at least doesn't appear to require as much crooking of the finger.
As for the mouse/phone/iPod: That sounds like the sort of Jack-of-all-trades, design-by-committee device that rumors sites always drum up, rather the sort of sleek, purposive devices that Apple usually releases. The post above talking about using the device as a mouse in the middle of a phone call sums it up for me. That's a great image.
We received a diagram this morning for an Apple iPod, Phone, Mouse.
It seemed a little ridiculous to us at first and something we normally would not post, but as we thought about it, it became the coolest gadget we could think of. While the product seems to be too many things in one, Apple has in fact filed for a patent on a rotary mouse. This anonymous source tells us the following specs:
'Rotary', iPod-style combined button/wheel on top of mouse for scrolling
- 15/30 GB internal hard drive
- Flipside of mouse has Phone and iPod controls
- Mouse wheel/button can be operated when using Phone/iPod
- Hard drive carries users Home folder from computer to computer
If this turns out to be true, this has to be the most innovative Apple product since the iMac...
Comments
Originally posted by gotterdamm
All that does is duplicate the actions of the scrollbar. The whole idea of scroll wheels is to give a single finger shortcut to an action that usually requires moving your entire hand. The feature you've just mentioned defeats the entire purpose of a scrollwheel.
A rotary mouse wheel would provide infinite scrolling with a single digit gesture. No other design could accomplish that.
I can think of another design. An analog, pressure-sensitive disk fer christsake. Why does it have to be a dial? Swirling your finger on a dial is just as dumb as stroking a scroll-wheel.
If we had something like the ThinkPad track-point, it would be infinitely better!
the reason that the iPod is so frekin' popular is because of the scroll wheel. Yes, the 20 gig HDD and good looks help, but the scroll wheel works quickly and efficiently, versus the MP3 'jog wheels' on the PC side, which reduce me to frustration rather quickly when trying to browse a large Mp3 library. Rotary mouse-- no new ideas there. The iPod had it all along.
RED HERRING
Originally posted by Placebo
I was to lazy to see whether somebody already posted this, but here it is:
the reason that the iPod is so frekin' popular is because of the scroll wheel. Yes, the 20 gig HDD and good looks help, but the scroll wheel works quickly and efficiently, versus the MP3 'jog wheels' on the PC side, which reduce me to frustration rather quickly when trying to browse a large Mp3 library. Rotary mouse-- no new ideas there. The iPod had it all along.
The rotary dial (as on the iPod) is designed to work best with the thumb because the thumb can make wider lateral movements than a finger. Having a rotary wheel on a mouse for use by the index finger is a bad idea. If implemented correctly, a flat version of the track-point would be better and provide scrolling along two axes.
As it stands now, I use a Contour ShuttlePro for scrubbing through FinalCut, AFX, QuickTime etc., but have to switch to my other mouse to click on anything. A combination of the two would be welcome, although personally I'd prefer a bit more functionality than this sketch seems to portray.
Could be nice for iMovie/FinalCut Express users though.
Originally posted by 709
This might be in line for Apple's bigger push into the pro-sumer video market. The 'jog-dial' is standard fare on most professional VTRs. This new mouse might address the need of video-makers to scrub through video while retaining the point-and-click of a traditional mouse.
Thanks, I was thinking the same thing.
I think this is a great idea. And it's perfect Apple, because they don't want to just cave-in and do the scroll wheel like everyone else.
But two reasons I don't think it will happen:
1. It does seem more stressful on the finger compared to the regular scroll wheel.
2. It doesn't cognitively map on to the scroll bar, which is vertical rather than circular on the computer screen, as well as the regular scroll wheel.
April 26, 2003
We received a diagram this morning for an Apple iPod, Phone, Mouse.
It seemed a little ridiculous to us at first and something we normally would not post, but as we thought about it, it became the coolest gadget we could think of. While the product seems to be too many things in one, Apple has in fact filed for a patent on a rotary mouse. This anonymous source tells us the following specs:
'Rotary', iPod-style combined button/wheel on top of mouse for scrolling
- 15/30 GB internal hard drive
- Flipside of mouse has Phone and iPod controls
- Mouse wheel/button can be operated when using Phone/iPod
- Hard drive carries users Home folder from computer to computer
where do you plug in your head phones...oh , no i am sorry... they are blue tooth headphones!!!!
Originally posted by NETROMac
Looks kinda cute from the side, doesn't it ?
finally looks more like a mouse, even has a "head"
Originally posted by McCrab
The rotary dial (as on the iPod) is designed to work best with the thumb because the thumb can make wider lateral movements than a finger. Having a rotary wheel on a mouse for use by the index finger is a bad idea. If implemented correctly, a flat version of the track-point would be better and provide scrolling along two axes.
The only problem with the track-point is that it doesn't allow continuous scrolling like the dial does. On the other hand, the dial prohibits simultaneous movement on both axes. I'm not sure which solution is better. It depends largely on the context; the dial is great for scrubbing but the track-points is probably better for scrolling.
Originally posted by BRussell
But two reasons I don't think it will happen:
1. It does seem more stressful on the finger compared to the regular scroll wheel.
I'd be curious to see the results of ergonomic tests for both designs. I'm unsure which one is really the most finger-friendly.
2. It doesn't cognitively map on to the scroll bar, which is vertical rather than circular on the computer screen, as well as the regular scroll wheel.
Interesting argument. Apple's answer to this seems to be that you can use the dial in a way that maps cognitively to the task at hand. So you'd use it differently depending on whether you scroll vertically or horizontally. Here's an image which is part of the patent application:
'80', '82', and '86' shows the convoluted fingers of an Apple Legal employee. '88' and '90' shows two ways to operate the dial. I'm not sure how the computer knows whether you want to scroll up or down, though, because depending on the side of the dial your finger sits on (left or right), a clockwise movement could mean either up or down.
-Heady
The patent describes the disadvantages of the traditional scroll wheel mouse:
Unfortunately, the mouse described in FIG. 1 [Traditional Scrollwheel mouse] has several drawbacks.
For example, the scroll wheel is limited in that it only provides a single finger position for accessing the scroll wheel (e.g., same position for left and right handed users).
Furthermore, because only a small portion of the wheel can be used at any one time, the user cannot continuously turn the wheel. That is, the user must scroll, pick up a finger, scroll, pick up a finger, etc. This takes time and can be an annoyance to a user.
In addition, because a portion of the wheel protrudes above the top surface of the mouse, inadvertent or accidental scrolling may occur when one of the two buttons is activated. That is, when the user goes to push the button or when the user switches from one button to the other, the user's finger may also engage the scroll wheel thus causing the wheel to turn when the button is depressed.
Moreover, because the scroll wheel can only be manipulated in one direction, the use of the scroll wheel becomes counter intuitive when scrolling in a different direction in the GUI, as for example directions that are orthogonal thereto. That is, the scroll wheel only moves in one direction and thus it generally corresponds well to vertical scrolling and not horizontal scrolling (or vice versa).
Also, the protruding scroll wheel is not aesthetically pleasing and thus it presents industrial design difficulties.
- An LCD put on the BOTTOM of a mouse is definitely gonna get scratched.
- A HD in a device that's supposed to move around constantly is asking for disk trouble (i don't know how often my mouse bumps or drops off the table, but it definitely happens a few times a week)
- putting my home folder on a USB-or bluetooth connected device ? No way. Too slow. The home folder is where 90% of your documents-related disk activity goes to, so it should be fast.
- phone & mouse in 1 is a stupid idea : if you get a call and want to look up something while on the phone ... "um wait a sec... gotta look it up... [scratchsound for 45 secs]"
- and about the whole rotary issue : it starts from the assumption that the current scroll wheel is unhandy because you can't scroll continuously. Sorry, but that's a silly argment. If you want to scroll continuously, press the scroll arrows on your screen ! The fact that you've gotta lift your finger to rescroll is not a sufficient argument for a rotary mouse. I have NEVER considered the mouse scroll wheel to be finger-stressy.
I think it's an Apple decoy to divert attention away from something we've been discussing lately. Now where's my iFrame hat ? :-)
Originally posted by Bioflavonoid
lol... I can't believe that this thread has racked up over 3000 views... a lot of people care about a mouse with two buttons i suppose
Well, you know, rotary has always been the "prettier" design. Far fewer moving parts than the traditional, piston mice.
I'm not surprised to hear that Apple is trying to come up with a more expressive mouse without just blindly adopting the Windows non-design. I'm not convinced that the dial is significantly better ergonomically, although it at least doesn't appear to require as much crooking of the finger.
As for the mouse/phone/iPod: That sounds like the sort of Jack-of-all-trades, design-by-committee device that rumors sites always drum up, rather the sort of sleek, purposive devices that Apple usually releases. The post above talking about using the device as a mouse in the middle of a phone call sums it up for me. That's a great image.
Originally posted by NETROMac
We received a diagram this morning for an Apple iPod, Phone, Mouse.
An iPhodMouse?
I couldn't work half the day with that iPhodMouse, since I'm usually on the phone while using the mouse.
Originally posted by JLL
An iPhodMouse?
I couldn't work half the day with that iPhodMouse, since I'm usually on the phone while using the mouse.
You'd still be able to use the scrollwheel
Originally posted by NETROMac
From LoopRumors:
April 26, 2003
We received a diagram this morning for an Apple iPod, Phone, Mouse.
It seemed a little ridiculous to us at first and something we normally would not post, but as we thought about it, it became the coolest gadget we could think of. While the product seems to be too many things in one, Apple has in fact filed for a patent on a rotary mouse. This anonymous source tells us the following specs:
'Rotary', iPod-style combined button/wheel on top of mouse for scrolling
- 15/30 GB internal hard drive
- Flipside of mouse has Phone and iPod controls
- Mouse wheel/button can be operated when using Phone/iPod
- Hard drive carries users Home folder from computer to computer
If this turns out to be true, this has to be the most innovative Apple product since the iMac...
Originally posted by NETROMac
You'd still be able to use the scrollwheel
Wheee!!