Apple should sell the G5s cheaper than the G4s and build market share, and I think there's better than half a chance that Apple's figured this out.
Selectively quoted. But this is what Apple MUST do!
Fully agree and back Matsu's initial post. As always, creative, articulate and darn right.
Apple MUST not repeat the excessive premiums of the past. Those days are GONE! They will just pass up the opportunity for Growth and to hit Wintel where it really hurts.
They've got to think long term by going for the jugular NOW!
The stakes are too great. The planets are now in alignment. The time to strike is now! NOW!!!
They've got Redmond right where they want them this time. They won't get a better shot.
I went to the Dell site and could not config a PC with all those wonderful iApps, Final cut, nor OSX.
Guess its since they spend Soooo much money on RD items such as cutting edge 64 bit OSes named after cats, they can't afford to build iApps...
\
You guys still don't get it. *I* don't make any cutesy movies, and I'm not a big fan of MP3 stuff either. That's just not me. I work with Java, X11, C, C++, GCC, benchmarking, testing JVMs, etc. So the software *I* need, I already have, and it works in Linux, Solaris, OS X, and all that. I'd like the Mac for its newfound chip, its newfound Java 1.4.1 implementation, I'd like to see what differences there are in Apples GCC now that the chip is 64 bit, etc.
Why do some people get so touchy about this? You want the machine for making movies, getting Mp3s and you are willing to pay whatever is charged. I have my own needs, and I'm willing to pay a certain price. I work for a hardware company, I know what margins are like, I know a little bit about what goes into making a 64bit machine, and hence I have *my own* expectations on what price *I* am willing to pay.
I'm not naysaying anyone for paying $1599, if thats fair to you, great, have a blast. Jeez.
If Apple charges a premium for these new machines, they'll get it from most of us. However, I think its far more important for Apple to increase their market share. Given that they appear to have really great machines coming out in the next week, not to mention OS X 10.3 might have some great surprises, I would hope that Apple would forgo the high profit margins and instead, try to sell as many boxes as possible. This looks to be one of the best, if not the best, times in recent years for Apple to shine and I hope they use this time to grab as much of the pc market as possible.
SO, eeexcelent news in the form of PPc970 monsters has arrived. 1.6SP-2.0DP with 8GB RAm and fully modernized I/O. But what about the prices?
I think any price increase is NOT justifiable at all, and titanically short sighted.
Whatever they charge for the better, best, ultimate configs is really of no concern to me. The performance might be there, but these will surely be too expensive for my tastes. That leaves the entry level. Slots are down to 3, suggesting a case shrink, prices dropped on it just on rev prior (apple surely noting that a new 64 bit SP machine was comming onl;ine this summer. Raising the prices back up, regardless of performance, just will not do on an entry level machine, at 1499, they're passable, but not something to win converts for long, especially since the performance metric probably still tilts in favor of Mega-Ghz HT P4's when it comes to a single 1.6 PPC970, as per the specs.
What Apple really needs to do is seize this opportunity to really compete, to hit not just a infield homerun, but hit an andro fuel, corked bat special grand slam straight out of the park. It's the only way to signal, hey look, we're not dead, we're back and we mean business.
I say 1299, and I don't care if they strip the machine out to get it there. DVD-rom only, 256MB ram, so-so video, smallish HDD, just put that new G5 and mobo in there with all it's sexy new modern I/O, put in the old el-cap case for all I care, just get that price down to where it needs to be.
Apple has to learn the concept of a market share leader, the rest of the lineup can cost pretty much whatever, but a true entry level tower has been missing for far too long.
1499 would be acceptable (with a better spec than a 1299 machine) but any increase, especially the 1699-1799 I've heard thrown around here, would be to mind an utter disaster, a classic example of Apple shooting it's own feet in mid chase.
We might get a new dance come monday, probably difficult to do the old one since Apple has injected some 64 bit elixer into the mix that makes the feet sluggish and the mind more mellow, at least for one Q.
will it be PRICE , or PRICE ???
Oh what the hell. THIS is THE 'G5' post so far. The 'Tower' is THE Switcher machine. The imac 2 is turning into the boutique computer. It had too many limitations. People want all the stuff they don't need like 'mhz', 'speed', 'high numbers', 'expandability'...all the things that seem to sell plenty of Wintel towers.
Apple need that 'low end' tier of towers. A consumer tower. Priced to go at under 1K inc VAT. Watch that 1.6 970 shift.
A consumer/prosumer/workstation range. Yes.
1K - 2K max. Duals at top.
If they want to, a proper workstation range above from 2.5K to 4K. Quads at top. But do it right.
You guys still don't get it. *I* don't make any cutesy movies, and I'm not a big fan of MP3 stuff either. That's just not me. I work with Java, X11, C, C++, GCC, benchmarking, testing JVMs, etc. So the software *I* need, I already have, and it works in Linux, Solaris, OS X, and all that. I'd like the Mac for its newfound chip, its newfound Java 1.4.1 implementation, I'd like to see what differences there are in Apples GCC now that the chip is 64 bit, etc.
Why do some people get so touchy about this? You want the machine for making movies, getting Mp3s and you are willing to pay whatever is charged. I have my own needs, and I'm willing to pay a certain price. I work for a hardware company, I know what margins are like, I know a little bit about what goes into making a 64bit machine, and hence I have *my own* expectations on what price *I* am willing to pay.
I'm not naysaying anyone for paying $1599, if thats fair to you, great, have a blast. Jeez.
-M
Guess what: you're in the minority. And since Apple already is a minority, marketing their product towards a minority of the minority is ignorant at best, fatal at worst.
They are in the ballpark. $1499 for the base powermac is ballpark. $999 for an iBook is in the same stadium too. It's not like an iBook is $2400 bucks. So if the $200 bucks matters that much I guess you should stick to Windows.
When you shop for cars and compare a honda to a kia.. are you confused about why the honda costs more?
Guess what: you're in the minority. And since Apple already is a minority, marketing their product towards a minority of the minority is ignorant at best, fatal at worst.
You're right in a way. And I'm not asking Apple to lower their prices to my wishes, etc.
But you know, in reality, *YOU are the minority*. Thats why Apple has the market share it has today. Think about it.
They are in the ballpark. $1499 for the base powermac is ballpark. $999 for an iBook is in the same stadium too. It's not like an iBook is $2400 bucks. So if the $200 bucks matters that much I guess you should stick to Windows.
When you shop for cars and compare a honda to a kia.. are you confused about why the honda costs more?
Yeeeah, OK. Anyways.
If Apple wants to sell to the faithfull, keep it at $1599, hell even $1799, they'll sell like hotcakes to people who already own Macs, who are already Mac faithful.
You wanna sell to the rest of the world and increase market share, lower the price.
But you know, in reality, *YOU are the minority*. Thats why Apple has the market share it has today. Think about it.
-M
The only thing that may make me the minority is the fact that I'd rather pay more for a quality product than less for a cheap product. If that makes me minority, then I am.
All these car analogies are just too flawed for words, don't believe Steve-o's spin, he's good at it, he's the CEO, but that doesn't mean you should believe it. There are plenty of high quality PC towers that offer the same BMW-Honda type quality that Apple claims, we're not talking 400-500USD computers here, we're talking, machines that cost 1000-2000, in the PC world, that buys you a rolls-royce with your own personal blonde nymphet chauffer, not a BMW, and certainly not a KIA.
If Apple charges a premium for these new machines, they'll get it from most of us. However, I think its far more important for Apple to increase their market share. Given that they appear to have really great machines coming out in the next week, not to mention OS X 10.3 might have some great surprises, I would hope that Apple would forgo the high profit margins and instead, try to sell as many boxes as possible. This looks to be one of the best, if not the best, times in recent years for Apple to shine and I hope they use this time to grab as much of the pc market as possible.
Exactly.
There's a reason(s) Apple are 2%.
They want 10%? They aint gonna get that by putting up prices.
They don't have to be the cheapest. But they need to be much cheaper, more flexible and more powerful.
3in1 for growth (oh...and ADVERTISE!)
They need to make these things irrestible. Make 'em walk out the stores. Not have 'equal' speed but 'Ohmygod, Iwanttoplaydoom3onthatmachineohmygod!' Apple HAVE to be better. Or they'll keep shrinking.
The 'G5' is an opportunity not to throw away on short term greed. Apple must not repeat the mistakes of the past.
There are way more people out there who want to listen to music, play with home videos, and burn their own DVDs than there are people like us, who develop. Really.
The problem Apple has is showing those unwashed masses that their solution is better than the crappy apps on the Wintel side, and worth the money... which, having used both sides quite a bit, I have to say that yeah, iLife is worth a bit more $, all other things on the system (performance, etc) being equal.
Worth enough that iLife alone has tempted *many* a friend of mine to make the switch... it's just the performance gap that's keeping them from doing so.
For us, iLife is possibly just wasted disk space. For *most* people, it's a real temptation to switch.
I think more than anything Apple Computers need to be more accessible to consumers for purchase. The Apple Stores are a start. The online store won't cut it.
The problem is people need to hunt for places to get a mac, and PCs are in their face eveywhere they go. It's more convenient for Joe Blow to just buy a PC.
Just because Dell and Gateway can make them CHEAP. Doesn't mean Apple can make them AS cheap. What's the point in gaining market share if you don't make a profit?
Apple stopped making thier own CRT displays because the profit margins weren't big enough. They discontinued the Newton too. Sure they were the only ones in the market... but they weren't making money on them.
You act as if Apple is greedy... maybe they're not as desperate for market share as people want them to be or think they need to be. The new machines are an answer to the Powermac's abysmal sales... which were suffering from performance and dare I say it... Quark issues. These machines, which will likely be in line with present prices, will FLY off the shelves.
I have nothing about specs but was told that new Powermacs are coming and that I should still be able to get a $1200 Powermac (education). If this is a 1.6 Ghz 970 I will be estatic!
Just because Dell and Gateway can make them CHEAP. Doesn't mean Apple can make them AS cheap. What's the point in gaining market share if you don't make a profit?
I'm not comparing their prices with Dell or Gateway *as much*. My point was, if Sun can allegedley, according to TheRegister, come out with a 64bit machine with 1Gig RAM and 80GB HD for under $2k, then Apple should be able to do BETTER. Both companies have R&D expenses, Sun has even bigger R&D expense.
$1599 is not a bad price, but $1299-$1399 is the price where you are gonna get alot of PC users and *Linux* users switching over.
Oh, and if you think Linux users are a tiny minority and don't matter, well, then there is no convincing you anyways.
Comments
Apple should sell the G5s cheaper than the G4s and build market share, and I think there's better than half a chance that Apple's figured this out.
Selectively quoted. But this is what Apple MUST do!
Fully agree and back Matsu's initial post. As always, creative, articulate and darn right.
Apple MUST not repeat the excessive premiums of the past. Those days are GONE! They will just pass up the opportunity for Growth and to hit Wintel where it really hurts.
They've got to think long term by going for the jugular NOW!
The stakes are too great. The planets are now in alignment. The time to strike is now! NOW!!!
They've got Redmond right where they want them this time. They won't get a better shot.
Lemon Bon Bon
Originally posted by keyboardf12
I went to the Dell site and could not config a PC with all those wonderful iApps, Final cut, nor OSX.
Guess its since they spend Soooo much money on RD items such as cutting edge 64 bit OSes named after cats, they can't afford to build iApps...
You guys still don't get it. *I* don't make any cutesy movies, and I'm not a big fan of MP3 stuff either. That's just not me. I work with Java, X11, C, C++, GCC, benchmarking, testing JVMs, etc. So the software *I* need, I already have, and it works in Linux, Solaris, OS X, and all that. I'd like the Mac for its newfound chip, its newfound Java 1.4.1 implementation, I'd like to see what differences there are in Apples GCC now that the chip is 64 bit, etc.
Why do some people get so touchy about this? You want the machine for making movies, getting Mp3s and you are willing to pay whatever is charged. I have my own needs, and I'm willing to pay a certain price. I work for a hardware company, I know what margins are like, I know a little bit about what goes into making a 64bit machine, and hence I have *my own* expectations on what price *I* am willing to pay.
I'm not naysaying anyone for paying $1599, if thats fair to you, great, have a blast. Jeez.
-M
hey've got Redmond right where they want them this time. They won't get a better shot.
What does this have to do with the pricing of new hardware?
Originally posted by Matsu
will it be PRICE
If Apple charges a premium for these new machines, they'll get it from most of us. However, I think its far more important for Apple to increase their market share. Given that they appear to have really great machines coming out in the next week, not to mention OS X 10.3 might have some great surprises, I would hope that Apple would forgo the high profit margins and instead, try to sell as many boxes as possible. This looks to be one of the best, if not the best, times in recent years for Apple to shine and I hope they use this time to grab as much of the pc market as possible.
SO, eeexcelent news in the form of PPc970 monsters has arrived. 1.6SP-2.0DP with 8GB RAm and fully modernized I/O. But what about the prices?
I think any price increase is NOT justifiable at all, and titanically short sighted.
Whatever they charge for the better, best, ultimate configs is really of no concern to me. The performance might be there, but these will surely be too expensive for my tastes. That leaves the entry level. Slots are down to 3, suggesting a case shrink, prices dropped on it just on rev prior (apple surely noting that a new 64 bit SP machine was comming onl;ine this summer. Raising the prices back up, regardless of performance, just will not do on an entry level machine, at 1499, they're passable, but not something to win converts for long, especially since the performance metric probably still tilts in favor of Mega-Ghz HT P4's when it comes to a single 1.6 PPC970, as per the specs.
What Apple really needs to do is seize this opportunity to really compete, to hit not just a infield homerun, but hit an andro fuel, corked bat special grand slam straight out of the park. It's the only way to signal, hey look, we're not dead, we're back and we mean business.
I say 1299, and I don't care if they strip the machine out to get it there. DVD-rom only, 256MB ram, so-so video, smallish HDD, just put that new G5 and mobo in there with all it's sexy new modern I/O, put in the old el-cap case for all I care, just get that price down to where it needs to be.
Apple has to learn the concept of a market share leader, the rest of the lineup can cost pretty much whatever, but a true entry level tower has been missing for far too long.
1499 would be acceptable (with a better spec than a 1299 machine) but any increase, especially the 1699-1799 I've heard thrown around here, would be to mind an utter disaster, a classic example of Apple shooting it's own feet in mid chase.
We might get a new dance come monday, probably difficult to do the old one since Apple has injected some 64 bit elixer into the mix that makes the feet sluggish and the mind more mellow, at least for one Q.
will it be PRICE , or PRICE ???
Oh what the hell. THIS is THE 'G5' post so far. The 'Tower' is THE Switcher machine. The imac 2 is turning into the boutique computer. It had too many limitations. People want all the stuff they don't need like 'mhz', 'speed', 'high numbers', 'expandability'...all the things that seem to sell plenty of Wintel towers.
Apple need that 'low end' tier of towers. A consumer tower. Priced to go at under 1K inc VAT. Watch that 1.6 970 shift.
A consumer/prosumer/workstation range. Yes.
1K - 2K max. Duals at top.
If they want to, a proper workstation range above from 2.5K to 4K. Quads at top. But do it right.
No Radeon 9000s in yer top end...
Lemon Bon Bon
You guys still don't get it. *I* don't make any cutesy movies, and I'm not a big fan of MP3 stuff either. That's just not me. I work with Java, X11, C, C++, GCC, benchmarking, testing JVMs, etc. So the software *I* need, I already have, and it works in Linux, Solaris, OS X, and all that. I'd like the Mac for its newfound chip, its newfound Java 1.4.1 implementation, I'd like to see what differences there are in Apples GCC now that the chip is 64 bit, etc.
Why do some people get so touchy about this? You want the machine for making movies, getting Mp3s and you are willing to pay whatever is charged. I have my own needs, and I'm willing to pay a certain price. I work for a hardware company, I know what margins are like, I know a little bit about what goes into making a 64bit machine, and hence I have *my own* expectations on what price *I* am willing to pay.
I'm not naysaying anyone for paying $1599, if thats fair to you, great, have a blast. Jeez.
-M
Guess what: you're in the minority. And since Apple already is a minority, marketing their product towards a minority of the minority is ignorant at best, fatal at worst.
When you shop for cars and compare a honda to a kia.. are you confused about why the honda costs more?
Originally posted by rageous
Guess what: you're in the minority. And since Apple already is a minority, marketing their product towards a minority of the minority is ignorant at best, fatal at worst.
You're right in a way. And I'm not asking Apple to lower their prices to my wishes, etc.
But you know, in reality, *YOU are the minority*. Thats why Apple has the market share it has today. Think about it.
-M
Originally posted by chu_bakka
They are in the ballpark. $1499 for the base powermac is ballpark. $999 for an iBook is in the same stadium too. It's not like an iBook is $2400 bucks. So if the $200 bucks matters that much I guess you should stick to Windows.
When you shop for cars and compare a honda to a kia.. are you confused about why the honda costs more?
Yeeeah, OK. Anyways.
If Apple wants to sell to the faithfull, keep it at $1599, hell even $1799, they'll sell like hotcakes to people who already own Macs, who are already Mac faithful.
You wanna sell to the rest of the world and increase market share, lower the price.
-M
But you know, in reality, *YOU are the minority*. Thats why Apple has the market share it has today. Think about it.
-M
The only thing that may make me the minority is the fact that I'd rather pay more for a quality product than less for a cheap product. If that makes me minority, then I am.
Originally posted by Matsu
blonde nymphet chauffer
<homer>Mmmmmmmmmmmmm, blone nymphet chauffer</homer>
-M
If Apple charges a premium for these new machines, they'll get it from most of us. However, I think its far more important for Apple to increase their market share. Given that they appear to have really great machines coming out in the next week, not to mention OS X 10.3 might have some great surprises, I would hope that Apple would forgo the high profit margins and instead, try to sell as many boxes as possible. This looks to be one of the best, if not the best, times in recent years for Apple to shine and I hope they use this time to grab as much of the pc market as possible.
Exactly.
There's a reason(s) Apple are 2%.
They want 10%? They aint gonna get that by putting up prices.
They don't have to be the cheapest. But they need to be much cheaper, more flexible and more powerful.
3in1 for growth (oh...and ADVERTISE!)
They need to make these things irrestible. Make 'em walk out the stores. Not have 'equal' speed but 'Ohmygod, Iwanttoplaydoom3onthatmachineohmygod!' Apple HAVE to be better. Or they'll keep shrinking.
The 'G5' is an opportunity not to throw away on short term greed. Apple must not repeat the mistakes of the past.
Lemon Bon Bon
The problem Apple has is showing those unwashed masses that their solution is better than the crappy apps on the Wintel side, and worth the money... which, having used both sides quite a bit, I have to say that yeah, iLife is worth a bit more $, all other things on the system (performance, etc) being equal.
Worth enough that iLife alone has tempted *many* a friend of mine to make the switch... it's just the performance gap that's keeping them from doing so.
For us, iLife is possibly just wasted disk space. For *most* people, it's a real temptation to switch.
The problem is people need to hunt for places to get a mac, and PCs are in their face eveywhere they go. It's more convenient for Joe Blow to just buy a PC.
Apple stopped making thier own CRT displays because the profit margins weren't big enough. They discontinued the Newton too. Sure they were the only ones in the market... but they weren't making money on them.
You act as if Apple is greedy... maybe they're not as desperate for market share as people want them to be or think they need to be. The new machines are an answer to the Powermac's abysmal sales... which were suffering from performance and dare I say it... Quark issues. These machines, which will likely be in line with present prices, will FLY off the shelves.
Originally posted by chu_bakka
Just because Dell and Gateway can make them CHEAP. Doesn't mean Apple can make them AS cheap. What's the point in gaining market share if you don't make a profit?
I'm not comparing their prices with Dell or Gateway *as much*. My point was, if Sun can allegedley, according to TheRegister, come out with a 64bit machine with 1Gig RAM and 80GB HD for under $2k, then Apple should be able to do BETTER. Both companies have R&D expenses, Sun has even bigger R&D expense.
$1599 is not a bad price, but $1299-$1399 is the price where you are gonna get alot of PC users and *Linux* users switching over.
Oh, and if you think Linux users are a tiny minority and don't matter, well, then there is no convincing you anyways.
-M
Originally posted by chu_bakka
What's the point in gaining market share if you don't make a profit?
Ok..carefully and slowly now.
Smaller profit, bigger market, overall more money....,more money good.
Ehh whatever, I gotta get back to real work, otherwise I won't be able to afford it even if its $500
-M
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
3in1 for growth (oh...and ADVERTISE!)
Absolutly.
And how about