intentional, flagrant penalty draws suspension for as long as the hurt player is out...player hurt for one game, you sit one game (and pay a fine), player hurt 1 month, you sit one month, end players career, you just ended yours also...
would allow face to face fighting (not flagrant) but would keep the goons from sucker punching people from behind...
and the guy with the broken neck...rookie right....nice first season...welcome to the wonderful world of hockey...maybe they will buy him a nice wheelchair and a copy of a steven hawkins book
I'm not sure that's exactly right... if a guy smashes his stick on someone's head and they miss a game, the person doing the chopping should still get a nice 10 game holiday or something.
And yes, that wasn't a fight. That was a vicious assault, and I'm sure he'll be dealt with accordingly.
Eugene: if you think Marc Crawford should have gone over to Granato to apologize (or say anything at all), you don't understand hockey very well. Every good coach in Crawford's situation would have done the exact same thing: remain in his usual spot, calm his players down and wait for the refs to make their decisions.
There is absolutely no point in engaging the other coaching staff; it can only make an ugly situation uglier. Trust me. Crawford did the wise thing by staying put. And to reiterate for everyone who may not be familiar with Mr. Crawford: it wasn't a "smug look". That's the same expression the guy always wears on his face. Every game. If you don't like it, talk to his parents -- they're the ones who gave it to him.
Anyway, I'm thinking the mods ought to combine these two threads or lock the shorter one, as we're talking about the same things in two different places.
Why isn't it inevitable in any other sport? It's a spectacle. In other sports, the rare fight isn't 'part of the game.'
Why aren't there any fights in olympic ice hockey?
The Olympics are a special case where everyone is representing their nation, acting on their best behavior. Fighting happens in all pro contact sports, and even some non-contact ones: football ,soccer, basball, basketball, etc. Hockey is just that much more intense than any of them anyway. Most of the fighting you see isn't of this nature. It's almost always either to provoke the other team into losing their composure or to try to get your team more emotionally involved in the game.
The Olympics are a special case where everyone is representing their nation, acting on their best behavior.[/b]
And it shouldn't be expected of individuals representing their teams and locales?
Quote:
Fighting happens in all pro contact sports, and even some non-contact ones: football ,soccer, basball, basketball, etc. Hockey is just that much more intense than any of them anyway. Most of the fighting you see isn't of this nature. It's almost always either to provoke the other team into losing their composure or to try to get your team more emotionally involved in the game.
Fighting in other pro sports is utterly rare, and it's never 'part of the game.' All the people involved get suspensions and fines. It doesn't happen EVERY night.
Fighting in other pro sports is utterly rare, and it's never 'part of the game.' All the people involved get suspensions and fines. It doesn't happen EVERY night.
Sure expcept hockey is a very unique sport. Somebody put it very well earlier that it is more physically intense then football, and there is no stoppage in play.
Hell look at baseball they have bench clearing brawls all the time.
Players OD on steriods in football, and baseball. NBA you have rape and drugs. Not to mention Jamal Anderson being indicted on federal drug trafficing charges how many lives do you think he's screwed up doing that??
...and like I said, most of the fights are tactical, and these are the ones you see night in and night out. I object to these types of melees. I'm not trying to justify all fighting. Most of it is a crock. I'm not saying situations where a guy's emotions make him resort to fisticuffs don't deserve strong (and stronger) discipline either. I'm just saying that fighting will never go away in at least one form: when a player loses his cool. The problem is that fighting itself is so ubiquitous that it doesn't usually mean that to a guy, and so the outlet of a player's frustration and anger goes to the next level. Fighting should be the absolute limit of NHL violence.
Besides, fighting is quickly becoming "part" of baseball and basketball. Only the NFL seems to have a cap on things. It's not like the NHL is all alone in this.
Fighting is allowable in hockey because people seldom get hurt in fights.
Ever throw a punch on ice? I've bashed a couple of knuckles with my face, it really only stings a bit. You can't plant yourself on skates, that means you can't get any kinda real force behind a punch. If you grab the guy to pull him close, you can't extend, and it turns into a sweater pulling contest. If you back up against the boards, you can't wind up and you end up with the same anemic punches.
Yes, this was a case of a broken neck, but I wouldn't call it a fight. It was an attack, an attack made in the frustration of not being able to start a fight, but still not a fight. The punch, because it came from behind, allowed Bertuzzi to get enough torque on Moore's head to drop him, along with 240 pounds crashing down on Moore. That's helped out by a couple of circumstances, Bertuzzi's momentuum skating towards Moore, his clawing him in with his left, and the angle coming in from behind. Things that I've never ever seen happen when two guys square up to fight on the ice.
Even so, that punch was probably good for a concussion and not a broken neck. The fall to the ice did that, if not the pile on. What was scary was that second punch Bertuzzi was lining up with Moore face down on the ice. I've seen small livestock dealt with with just such a blow. I don't know who intercepted it from Moore's side, but that might of been a coma or worse if Bertuzzi had landed it.
All that said. Suspension should be: rest of season, all of playoffs, plus 40 regular season games next year. Plus a fine, plus probation, plus forfeiture of one complete season's wages.
if Bertuzzi (who just signed a multi-million $ contract) stepped up and offered to pay all Moore's medical bills, it might help repair his reputation.
But rather than ban him, I'd suggest community service at rinks wherever kids have seen his goonish action. Better to have him correct his mistake and tell future players why it was wrong than just disappear.
Bertuzzi just gave a statement on local tv and was very apologetic and broken up about it.
seemed genuine.
Burke was supposed to comment too (before Canucks play the Wild at 8PST).
I'm sure both Press statements will make the late news in places that have picked up the story.
Tomorrow's hearing will probably give him a minimum 20 game suspension, IMO.
McSorley used a stick as a club to the head and got 23 games.
there are a few similar punishments in the 20 range.
Agreed. Fighting is still a fairly rare event, overall. I mean, I'm the first guy to make the joke "I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out" but I do it only out of love.
For the last time fighting does not happen every night in hockey.
I repeat: It does not happen every night.
Include all the MLB baseball teams. Fights don't happen every night. Nor in the NBA. I have no idea what BuonRotto is talking about.
Include all the NHL games played on a particular day. A fight breaks out just about every night, especially as the season winds down. As you guys say, it's part of the game.
if they can "hold it in" because it is important to the team, why can't the hold it in in a blow out game? they also usually do 90 second shifts...if they feel they can't control themselves, can't they shift themselves out?? nah, most fights are planned and for a reason, and that is why i usually have a problem with them personally...if somebody is banged into the boards hard and skates after that guy and they start whacking at each, fine, i have no problem with that...but the, "send in the goon to send a message for next game"...well maybe that is hockey, but that is also why hockey will always be a low numbers sport in the US...250 pound men fighting on quarter inch blades looking like chickens squabbling over feed isn't all that exciting to some i guess...
today should be interesting...the goon's apology seemed very sincere...still the "that's not me" part seemed strange, it sure looked like him on the ice...he still should get a year off and i will be surprised if he doesn't have to go to court like mcsorley did...and that will be interesting to see...mcsorley never skated again, but this guy will...if the courts tell him he can't fight for a year and a half or he goes to jail, do you think he can play hockey and not fight? and if he can "hold back" to avoid jail, can't he hold back other times also?
"send in the goon to send a message for next game".
I recall reading about a game where the coach sent in a couple of players just to start a ruckus in the final moments of the last period. Anybody know the specific incident I'm thinking of? I can't find mention of it.
I recall reading about a game where the coach sent in a couple of players just to start a ruckus in the final moments of the last period. Anybody know the specific incident I'm thinking of? I can't find mention of it.
ha. ha.
We get it. You think fighting is wrong. You don't really understand hockey. That's cool. Go watch some F1.
We get it. You think fighting is wrong. You don't really understand hockey. That's cool. Go watch some F1.
Do you recall such an incident? I think the coach was formally dealt with. I don't know what there is to 'understand' about sending a player out to fight for fighting's sake.
Do you recall such an incident? I think the coach was formally dealt with. I don't know what there is to 'understand' about sending a player out to fight for fighting's sake.
I'm not sure if you're really asking, or you're being sarcastic and making me say this...
The rolling eyes are because that's like me asking "hey, I can't find anything about that game where the coach told the pitcher to throw a fastball at that batter's head, remember that game?"
The rolling eyes are because that's like me asking "hey, I can't find anything about that game where the coach told the pitcher to throw a fastball at that batter's head, remember that game?"
Ah, so it happens all the time then, if that's what you're implying. In baseball, managers would never have the gall to order a batter beaned in the head, so don't start. If a pitcher wants to throw a brush-back pitch, it's his decision...not even the catcher's, and the minute he beans somebody on purpose, it's completely unacceptable. Heck, the brush-back alone is questionable too.
You're absolutely right. I don't understand the fighting concept at all.
For the last time fighting does not happen every night in hockey.
I repeat: It does not happen every night.
Dude, for all intents and purposes, that is just false. Players *injuring* other players (particularly serious injuries) ARE very rare, but that's not the same as "fighting". Particularly this season it's been pretty bad for some reason. A lot worse than last year.
I have been a subscriber to NHL Center Ice for a while now, so I watch at least a game a night and often times parts of three and four games. I can't remember the last time I went more than a couple days without seeing a fight. A week without seeing a fight would be a friggin miracle.
There are plenty of pointless fights in the NHL, started either to:
1. Give the fans something to "cheer" about when they're down 5-0
2. Get the team heated up when they're down 5-0
3. Because the two goons haven't gotten much ice time and gosh they should do *something* to earn their salaries.
All three reasons are complete BS in my opinion and the league needs to step up, recognize the difference between genuine fisticuffs, and crap like the items above. If you're guilty of the above offenses, you should get at least a couple games.
The officials in this league have zero spine, and they're going to pay for it eventually....
Fights don't happen every night. Nor in the NBA. I have no idea what BuonRotto is talking about.
They're happening with much more frequency in those sports, and the trend is is that they're happening more often as time goes on.
Others have made perfectly reasonable arguments over why fights happen more often in hockey, for better or worse.
1. it's used as a tactic,
2. it's more physical and intense in its nature,
3. penalties and enforcement of fighting are much more loose in the league.
4. fighting is different than blind-sided attacks, it's a consentual act.
Nobody is saying that all of these things are OK. Some things are inevitable, others are preventable and stronger discipline is needed in many cases on all sides. These points are being ignored. If no consensus can be made, we should just drop it.
Comments
would allow face to face fighting (not flagrant) but would keep the goons from sucker punching people from behind...
and the guy with the broken neck...rookie right....nice first season...welcome to the wonderful world of hockey...maybe they will buy him a nice wheelchair and a copy of a steven hawkins book
g
And yes, that wasn't a fight. That was a vicious assault, and I'm sure he'll be dealt with accordingly.
There is absolutely no point in engaging the other coaching staff; it can only make an ugly situation uglier. Trust me. Crawford did the wise thing by staying put. And to reiterate for everyone who may not be familiar with Mr. Crawford: it wasn't a "smug look". That's the same expression the guy always wears on his face. Every game. If you don't like it, talk to his parents -- they're the ones who gave it to him.
Anyway, I'm thinking the mods ought to combine these two threads or lock the shorter one, as we're talking about the same things in two different places.
Originally posted by Eugene
Why isn't it inevitable in any other sport? It's a spectacle. In other sports, the rare fight isn't 'part of the game.'
Why aren't there any fights in olympic ice hockey?
The Olympics are a special case where everyone is representing their nation, acting on their best behavior. Fighting happens in all pro contact sports, and even some non-contact ones: football ,soccer, basball, basketball, etc. Hockey is just that much more intense than any of them anyway. Most of the fighting you see isn't of this nature. It's almost always either to provoke the other team into losing their composure or to try to get your team more emotionally involved in the game.
Originally posted by BuonRotto
The Olympics are a special case where everyone is representing their nation, acting on their best behavior.[/b]
And it shouldn't be expected of individuals representing their teams and locales?
Fighting happens in all pro contact sports, and even some non-contact ones: football ,soccer, basball, basketball, etc. Hockey is just that much more intense than any of them anyway. Most of the fighting you see isn't of this nature. It's almost always either to provoke the other team into losing their composure or to try to get your team more emotionally involved in the game.
Fighting in other pro sports is utterly rare, and it's never 'part of the game.' All the people involved get suspensions and fines. It doesn't happen EVERY night.
Originally posted by Eugene
Fighting in other pro sports is utterly rare, and it's never 'part of the game.' All the people involved get suspensions and fines. It doesn't happen EVERY night.
Sure expcept hockey is a very unique sport. Somebody put it very well earlier that it is more physically intense then football, and there is no stoppage in play.
Hell look at baseball they have bench clearing brawls all the time.
Players OD on steriods in football, and baseball. NBA you have rape and drugs. Not to mention Jamal Anderson being indicted on federal drug trafficing charges how many lives do you think he's screwed up doing that??
Second part:
...and like I said, most of the fights are tactical, and these are the ones you see night in and night out. I object to these types of melees. I'm not trying to justify all fighting. Most of it is a crock. I'm not saying situations where a guy's emotions make him resort to fisticuffs don't deserve strong (and stronger) discipline either. I'm just saying that fighting will never go away in at least one form: when a player loses his cool. The problem is that fighting itself is so ubiquitous that it doesn't usually mean that to a guy, and so the outlet of a player's frustration and anger goes to the next level. Fighting should be the absolute limit of NHL violence.
Besides, fighting is quickly becoming "part" of baseball and basketball. Only the NFL seems to have a cap on things. It's not like the NHL is all alone in this.
Ever throw a punch on ice? I've bashed a couple of knuckles with my face, it really only stings a bit. You can't plant yourself on skates, that means you can't get any kinda real force behind a punch. If you grab the guy to pull him close, you can't extend, and it turns into a sweater pulling contest. If you back up against the boards, you can't wind up and you end up with the same anemic punches.
Yes, this was a case of a broken neck, but I wouldn't call it a fight. It was an attack, an attack made in the frustration of not being able to start a fight, but still not a fight. The punch, because it came from behind, allowed Bertuzzi to get enough torque on Moore's head to drop him, along with 240 pounds crashing down on Moore. That's helped out by a couple of circumstances, Bertuzzi's momentuum skating towards Moore, his clawing him in with his left, and the angle coming in from behind. Things that I've never ever seen happen when two guys square up to fight on the ice.
Even so, that punch was probably good for a concussion and not a broken neck. The fall to the ice did that, if not the pile on. What was scary was that second punch Bertuzzi was lining up with Moore face down on the ice. I've seen small livestock dealt with with just such a blow. I don't know who intercepted it from Moore's side, but that might of been a coma or worse if Bertuzzi had landed it.
All that said. Suspension should be: rest of season, all of playoffs, plus 40 regular season games next year. Plus a fine, plus probation, plus forfeiture of one complete season's wages.
Fights are OK. Attacks are not.
But rather than ban him, I'd suggest community service at rinks wherever kids have seen his goonish action. Better to have him correct his mistake and tell future players why it was wrong than just disappear.
Bertuzzi just gave a statement on local tv and was very apologetic and broken up about it.
seemed genuine.
Burke was supposed to comment too (before Canucks play the Wild at 8PST).
I'm sure both Press statements will make the late news in places that have picked up the story.
Tomorrow's hearing will probably give him a minimum 20 game suspension, IMO.
McSorley used a stick as a club to the head and got 23 games.
there are a few similar punishments in the 20 range.
maybe precedent, maybe not.
I repeat: It does not happen every night.
Originally posted by rageous
For the last time fighting does not happen every night in hockey.
I repeat: It does not happen every night.
Include all the MLB baseball teams. Fights don't happen every night. Nor in the NBA. I have no idea what BuonRotto is talking about.
Include all the NHL games played on a particular day. A fight breaks out just about every night, especially as the season winds down. As you guys say, it's part of the game.
how many fights in the all-star game?
how many fights in a 2-2 game?
how many fights in game 7 of the playoffs?
if they can "hold it in" because it is important to the team, why can't the hold it in in a blow out game? they also usually do 90 second shifts...if they feel they can't control themselves, can't they shift themselves out?? nah, most fights are planned and for a reason, and that is why i usually have a problem with them personally...if somebody is banged into the boards hard and skates after that guy and they start whacking at each, fine, i have no problem with that...but the, "send in the goon to send a message for next game"...well maybe that is hockey, but that is also why hockey will always be a low numbers sport in the US...250 pound men fighting on quarter inch blades looking like chickens squabbling over feed isn't all that exciting to some i guess...
today should be interesting...the goon's apology seemed very sincere...still the "that's not me" part seemed strange, it sure looked like him on the ice...he still should get a year off and i will be surprised if he doesn't have to go to court like mcsorley did...and that will be interesting to see...mcsorley never skated again, but this guy will...if the courts tell him he can't fight for a year and a half or he goes to jail, do you think he can play hockey and not fight? and if he can "hold back" to avoid jail, can't he hold back other times also?
g
Originally posted by thegelding
"send in the goon to send a message for next game".
I recall reading about a game where the coach sent in a couple of players just to start a ruckus in the final moments of the last period. Anybody know the specific incident I'm thinking of? I can't find mention of it.
Originally posted by Eugene
I recall reading about a game where the coach sent in a couple of players just to start a ruckus in the final moments of the last period. Anybody know the specific incident I'm thinking of? I can't find mention of it.
ha. ha.
We get it. You think fighting is wrong. You don't really understand hockey. That's cool. Go watch some F1.
Originally posted by murbot
We get it. You think fighting is wrong. You don't really understand hockey. That's cool. Go watch some F1.
Do you recall such an incident? I think the coach was formally dealt with. I don't know what there is to 'understand' about sending a player out to fight for fighting's sake.
Originally posted by Eugene
Do you recall such an incident? I think the coach was formally dealt with. I don't know what there is to 'understand' about sending a player out to fight for fighting's sake.
I'm not sure if you're really asking, or you're being sarcastic and making me say this...
The rolling eyes are because that's like me asking "hey, I can't find anything about that game where the coach told the pitcher to throw a fastball at that batter's head, remember that game?"
Originally posted by murbot
The rolling eyes are because that's like me asking "hey, I can't find anything about that game where the coach told the pitcher to throw a fastball at that batter's head, remember that game?"
Ah, so it happens all the time then, if that's what you're implying. In baseball, managers would never have the gall to order a batter beaned in the head, so don't start. If a pitcher wants to throw a brush-back pitch, it's his decision...not even the catcher's, and the minute he beans somebody on purpose, it's completely unacceptable. Heck, the brush-back alone is questionable too.
You're absolutely right. I don't understand the fighting concept at all.
Originally posted by rageous
For the last time fighting does not happen every night in hockey.
I repeat: It does not happen every night.
Dude, for all intents and purposes, that is just false. Players *injuring* other players (particularly serious injuries) ARE very rare, but that's not the same as "fighting". Particularly this season it's been pretty bad for some reason. A lot worse than last year.
I have been a subscriber to NHL Center Ice for a while now, so I watch at least a game a night and often times parts of three and four games. I can't remember the last time I went more than a couple days without seeing a fight. A week without seeing a fight would be a friggin miracle.
There are plenty of pointless fights in the NHL, started either to:
1. Give the fans something to "cheer" about when they're down 5-0
2. Get the team heated up when they're down 5-0
3. Because the two goons haven't gotten much ice time and gosh they should do *something* to earn their salaries.
All three reasons are complete BS in my opinion and the league needs to step up, recognize the difference between genuine fisticuffs, and crap like the items above. If you're guilty of the above offenses, you should get at least a couple games.
The officials in this league have zero spine, and they're going to pay for it eventually....
Originally posted by Eugene
Fights don't happen every night. Nor in the NBA. I have no idea what BuonRotto is talking about.
They're happening with much more frequency in those sports, and the trend is is that they're happening more often as time goes on.
Others have made perfectly reasonable arguments over why fights happen more often in hockey, for better or worse.
1. it's used as a tactic,
2. it's more physical and intense in its nature,
3. penalties and enforcement of fighting are much more loose in the league.
4. fighting is different than blind-sided attacks, it's a consentual act.
Nobody is saying that all of these things are OK. Some things are inevitable, others are preventable and stronger discipline is needed in many cases on all sides. These points are being ignored. If no consensus can be made, we should just drop it.