Most of you are making the wrong association. This has absolutely nothing to do with Word or Office. Pages, if anything, is Apples answer to Publisher, if that. It may even be more along the lines of Printshop or one of those cheap project programs intended for women and children. Greeting cards and family newsletters does not a high-end WP make. I'm not sure if Pages should even be called a WP. I will just have to see what it really is when it comes out. For now, Apple seems content to advertise it as little more than a project program. That is not a bad thing. It is just not a replacement for a real WP.
Most of you are making the wrong association. This has absolutely nothing to do with Word or Office. Pages, if anything, is Apples answer to Publisher, if that. It may even be more along the lines of Printshop or one of those cheap project programs intended for women and children.
Wow, that was amazingly condescending.
I'm sure what you *meant* to say is 'one of those simple and cheap programs marketed towards those more interested in simple and fast home-oriented projects'. Really. I'm sure that's what you meant, instead of coming across as... well, I'll let someone pull the trigger on that one.
Quote:
Greeting cards and family newsletters does not a high-end WP make. I'm not sure if Pages should even be called a WP. I will just have to see what it really is when it comes out. For now, Apple seems content to advertise it as little more than a project program. That is not a bad thing. It is just not a replacement for a real WP.
1) NSTextField is the core of TextEdit. It has 95% of the functionality in one drag-and-drop element in Interface Builder.
2) Pages is presumed to be Cocoa, as Keynote is, and they share a lot of elements.
3) Pages would then use NSTextField for typography, processing, etc
4) Pages would then, indeed, be a word processing application of a rather high caliber in most people's eyes.
What would you consider to have to be included to be a 'real' WP app??? I mean, I consider being able to use a simple graphic from another application and keep the full resolution to be a basic BASIC feature of a word processor, but Word continually disappoints on that front.
I'm sure what you *meant* to say is 'one of those simple and cheap programs marketed towards those more interested in simple and fast home-oriented projects'. Really. I'm sure that's what you meant, instead of coming across as... well, I'll let someone pull the trigger on that one.
True enough and point taken.
From what was demonstrated, it seems to have little to do with competing with Word. You put it best when you said
'one of those simple and cheap programs marketed towards those more interested in simple and fast home-oriented projects'.
Has anyone seen or heard anything about this program that would suggest otherwise?
2 - Spreadsheet: Clearly missing, with rumors of "Cells". I have no doubt that Apple is working on something in their labs, and maybe "Cells" simply wasn't ready to debut just yet.
3 - Database: "Filemaker" does it, but is too complex and costly for mom and dad and the average person. Apple needs to create a "Filemaker Light" to bundle with iWork 2.0 that fills this need.
I wonder if Cells relates more to a database than spreadsheet. Indeed, with a database built into every OS Apple may be rethinking Filemaker.
Also, any Database 'app' they have could act as a spreadsheet - by basically simplifying the interface. Couldn't it?
Quote:
Originally posted by Ensoniq
4 - Drawing & Painting: "iPhoto" & "Core Image" clearly show that Apple has all the knowledge and tools to edit& manipulate images, and do all the fancy stuff that Photoshop currently does. Why Apple doesn't release some sort of "MacPaint '05" application is unknown, but I think a very good idea.
Hopefully iDraw or iPaint will be part of iLife, not iWork.
From what was demonstrated, it seems to have little to do with competing with Word. You put it best when you said
'one of those simple and cheap programs marketed towards those more interested in simple and fast home-oriented projects'.
Has anyone seen or heard anything about this program that would suggest otherwise?
I think the demo was to show off what Pages did much better than Word-which is make pretty looking documents. This has two sides to it, IMHO. One is to catch the attention of all of us who have been waiting to get something better than Word for our documents, but something less than Quark or InDesign. Second, I don't think Apple was trying to pick a fight or directly compare themselves to MS Office. They know they are still short on some ends and not even playing on others (Excel).
Nonetheless, I think my professional needs are will be met by this program, although I'm guessing I'll be looking for a few added features in version 2.
From what was demonstrated, it seems to have little to do with competing with Word. You put it best when you said
'one of those simple and cheap programs marketed towards those more interested in simple and fast home-oriented projects'.
Has anyone seen or heard anything about this program that would suggest otherwise?
Keynote. I use it a lot, and frankly, the layout tools can give dedicated layout apps a run for their money, IMHO. Pages looks to share much of the same code and development, which indicates that it will work much the same way.
If so, this is a word processor (TextEdit functionality, including the robust styles/rulers/typography we've seen already and in Tiger previews) with the layout and compositing capabilities of Keynote (which are excellent), and the additional layout intelligence needed for columns, auto-wrap around objects, and other little goodies.
I'd hardly call it simple. You're confusing a simple interface with power, I believe. It's all right, a lot of people do it, thinking that only if it has a thousand switches and buttons can it ever possibly be used for advanced things. cf: MS marketing.
From what was demonstrated, it seems to have little to do with competing with Word. You put it best when you said
'one of those simple and cheap programs marketed towards those more interested in simple and fast home-oriented projects'.
Has anyone seen or heard anything about this program that would suggest otherwise?
Just because Pages does layout and presentation much better than most word processors do doesn't mean it is only a Print Shop-like program.
Pages is a word processor.
It may not compete with Word feature for feature (and as a regular college student, I really don't even have any idea what all those features are), but I can tell you one thing: I'm dropping Word for Pages. I think there will be plenty of people who will too. That alone should suggest to you that Pages does compete with Word on some level.
I would drop Word in a heartbeat for Pages, but only if it has some good word processing features. Right now it seems more like a page layout app than "WP with style". I need in Pages to have a good word count function, easy page numbering, and powerful multilanguage grammar and spell checking (for french class). If it has those, then I guess my iMac will be Microsoft free. If not, hopefully Apple will add those soon either in the next release or a firmware update.
If the word processing part of Pages is based on the standard text engine that runs textedit, create, keynote, and other cocoa programs, then can I assume that it will have all the same bugs and problems that these apps currently have?
The main show stopping bug at the moment is controlling the line spacing when using subscripts (which as a scientist, I need to use ALL the time). It is currently impossible to use subscripts in a cocoa text document while keeping the spacing of the lines constant. It works for superscripts, but not for subscripts. Apple people have confirmed that this is a current limitation. However, when I asked someone with Tiger to test if it had been fixed, they said no.
I will certainly buy Pages, as I have suffered with the 'trying-to-write-grant-proposal-but-Bill-Gates-knows where-the-images-should-be-placed-better-than-me' problems with Word that someone mentioned above.
I would be VERY interested to know if Apple has solved the problems with linespacing and subscripts in Pages.
A related problem is that when applying subscripts and superscripts, the size of the font is not automatically reduced, so you end up having to do this manually. You really need a nice single keyboard shortcut that will apply the subscript, reduce its fontsize, and KEEP THE LINE SPACING CONSTANT!!!!!!
Was anyone able to test this stuff out at MacWorld?
If the word processing part of Pages is based on the standard text engine that runs textedit, create, keynote, and other cocoa programs, then can I assume that it will have all the same bugs and problems that these apps currently have?
The main show stopping bug at the moment is controlling the line spacing when using subscripts (which as a scientist, I need to use ALL the time).
It definitely does use the same text engine and features. The super- and subscript line spacing problem is apparently a known issue at Apple. I don't know if it will be fixed in Tiger though. Check out this thread in the Stone Design forums for Andrew's confirmation that Apple at least knows about this issue, but he can't comment on what's to come:
The main show stopping bug at the moment is controlling the line spacing when using subscripts (which as a scientist, I need to use ALL the time).
Have you considered LaTeX? I use it daily, for precisely the fact that it does equations and intelligent placement of elements quickly, easily and intelligently. Coupled with TeXShop, you get most of the goodies of a WP for the text editing, and then let LaTeX handle the layout.
Yes, I have been having the same conversation with Andrew from Create (great program by the way - I can't help thinking that most of the functionality of Pages is already available in Create!).
I have considered latex, but I simply don't have the time to invest in learning how to do it. Maybe it is easier than I think? I did see a nice latex utility the other day to produce pdfs of typeset equations, which almost convinced me to give it a go.
I assume Pages will not come with any sort of equation editor, so we will be stuck with cutting and pasting from the free one that comes with appleworks and word?
Maybe you're thinking of Equation Service? I use it a lot to send equations to other folks via email, so there's no question about what we're talking about. Very useful, and you're absolutely right, it is *PERFECT* for dropping equations into Keynote (and presumably Pages).
See, this is where the uber-compositing comes in handy. These apps don't need to offer half-assed equation editors, when there are some stunning tools already out there to do it right, and for free.
If you're interested in LaTeX at all, go get TeXShop. It's free, it handles the installation of the full LaTeX system for you, and it works beautifully. It's primarily a text editor for raw LaTeX production, but it also has palettes and pop-up menus for generating the LaTeX for you until you learn it. (I find that after a while, typing it in is faster.) Also, one button click, and you have a beautiful PDF file to send to folks. I couldn't live without it.
Equation Service lets you type in a quick LaTeX equation anywhere, in any application, select the text, hit Cmd-< and a tiny PDF of your equation, stunningly rendered, will be sitting in your pasteboard. Cmd-V, it appears. Voila.
Yes, I have been having the same conversation with Andrew from Create (great program by the way - I can't help thinking that most of the functionality of Pages is already available in Create!).
Actually, Create has much more functionality, though it's geared towards DTP and web publishing, not bibliographies and such. You're greeted with a blank page instead of a selection of themes, so it's more of a make-your-own-theme artists' kind of environment. And the choices of included vector art, images, blends, etc. are limited. (That's partly my fault.) It's not a WP though, and not made for all the scientific whatnot you're talking about, at least not yet. The text tools are again based on the standard cocoa text objects (and thus will also improve with Tiger, whatever that will bring). For long documents, you do most of the typing outside the app, drop in the text and Create will generate the pages needed to fit it and auto-flow the text.
Actually, Create is exactly why I want Apple to make its Keynote rulers standard issue for third-party use. Andrew has enhanced the currrent Apple-supplied rulers nicely, but the auto-alignment guides are just so nice to use.
Actually, Pages gives Create a clearer direction to go because there was thoughts thrown around to make it more "color by numbers," but Pages has stepped in to that spot. But I digress...
I wonder if Cells relates more to a database than spreadsheet. Indeed, with a database built into every OS Apple may be rethinking Filemaker.
Also, any Database 'app' they have could act as a spreadsheet - by basically simplifying the interface. Couldn't it?
Holy crap, I hadn't even considered that!
With SQLite built right into Tiger, all Apple needs is a good interface with calls to SQLite, and "Requires MacOS 10.4 or higher" on the box. Instant database application.
As a sadder (if not wiser) Framemaker user I can't help but view Pages through a Frame-centric prism. We know that Apple produces a lot of its documentation using Framemaker ... wouldn't it be nice if Pages could fill those particular shoes? You can bet that a lot of people within Apple are thinking similar thoughts.
If Apple were to look after its own writers in this way, the result may well be a compelling solution not just for technical writers, but also for the education market. And there's the rub. If Pages were to become the educational writer's tool of choice, it might well presage a welcome resurgence in one of Apple's favourite markets.
I'm sure it works as advertised, but I won't use it based on aesthetic reasons. (I've tried to, many times over the years. Just doesn't feel Mac-like or finished or pro).
I thought that some sort of spreadsheet or simple DB application were omitted as they are dependent on Tiger's CoreData frameworks.
It would be nice if they came out with a simple to use DB. Make a simple data model and then make something akin to Hypercard sheets on top, that with a few click / drag operations linked up to your data...
Comments
Originally posted by Mac Voyer
Most of you are making the wrong association. This has absolutely nothing to do with Word or Office. Pages, if anything, is Apples answer to Publisher, if that. It may even be more along the lines of Printshop or one of those cheap project programs intended for women and children.
I'm sure what you *meant* to say is 'one of those simple and cheap programs marketed towards those more interested in simple and fast home-oriented projects'. Really. I'm sure that's what you meant, instead of coming across as... well, I'll let someone pull the trigger on that one.
Greeting cards and family newsletters does not a high-end WP make. I'm not sure if Pages should even be called a WP. I will just have to see what it really is when it comes out. For now, Apple seems content to advertise it as little more than a project program. That is not a bad thing. It is just not a replacement for a real WP.
1) NSTextField is the core of TextEdit. It has 95% of the functionality in one drag-and-drop element in Interface Builder.
2) Pages is presumed to be Cocoa, as Keynote is, and they share a lot of elements.
3) Pages would then use NSTextField for typography, processing, etc
4) Pages would then, indeed, be a word processing application of a rather high caliber in most people's eyes.
What would you consider to have to be included to be a 'real' WP app??? I mean, I consider being able to use a simple graphic from another application and keep the full resolution to be a basic BASIC feature of a word processor, but Word continually disappoints on that front.
Originally posted by Kickaha
I'm sure what you *meant* to say is 'one of those simple and cheap programs marketed towards those more interested in simple and fast home-oriented projects'. Really. I'm sure that's what you meant, instead of coming across as... well, I'll let someone pull the trigger on that one.
True enough and point taken.
From what was demonstrated, it seems to have little to do with competing with Word. You put it best when you said
'one of those simple and cheap programs marketed towards those more interested in simple and fast home-oriented projects'.
Has anyone seen or heard anything about this program that would suggest otherwise?
Originally posted by Ensoniq
2 - Spreadsheet: Clearly missing, with rumors of "Cells". I have no doubt that Apple is working on something in their labs, and maybe "Cells" simply wasn't ready to debut just yet.
3 - Database: "Filemaker" does it, but is too complex and costly for mom and dad and the average person. Apple needs to create a "Filemaker Light" to bundle with iWork 2.0 that fills this need.
I wonder if Cells relates more to a database than spreadsheet. Indeed, with a database built into every OS Apple may be rethinking Filemaker.
Also, any Database 'app' they have could act as a spreadsheet - by basically simplifying the interface. Couldn't it?
Originally posted by Ensoniq
4 - Drawing & Painting: "iPhoto" & "Core Image" clearly show that Apple has all the knowledge and tools to edit& manipulate images, and do all the fancy stuff that Photoshop currently does. Why Apple doesn't release some sort of "MacPaint '05" application is unknown, but I think a very good idea.
Hopefully iDraw or iPaint will be part of iLife, not iWork.
Originally posted by Mac Voyer
From what was demonstrated, it seems to have little to do with competing with Word. You put it best when you said
'one of those simple and cheap programs marketed towards those more interested in simple and fast home-oriented projects'.
Has anyone seen or heard anything about this program that would suggest otherwise?
I think the demo was to show off what Pages did much better than Word-which is make pretty looking documents. This has two sides to it, IMHO. One is to catch the attention of all of us who have been waiting to get something better than Word for our documents, but something less than Quark or InDesign. Second, I don't think Apple was trying to pick a fight or directly compare themselves to MS Office. They know they are still short on some ends and not even playing on others (Excel).
Nonetheless, I think my professional needs are will be met by this program, although I'm guessing I'll be looking for a few added features in version 2.
Originally posted by Mac Voyer
True enough and point taken.
From what was demonstrated, it seems to have little to do with competing with Word. You put it best when you said
'one of those simple and cheap programs marketed towards those more interested in simple and fast home-oriented projects'.
Has anyone seen or heard anything about this program that would suggest otherwise?
Keynote. I use it a lot, and frankly, the layout tools can give dedicated layout apps a run for their money, IMHO. Pages looks to share much of the same code and development, which indicates that it will work much the same way.
If so, this is a word processor (TextEdit functionality, including the robust styles/rulers/typography we've seen already and in Tiger previews) with the layout and compositing capabilities of Keynote (which are excellent), and the additional layout intelligence needed for columns, auto-wrap around objects, and other little goodies.
I'd hardly call it simple. You're confusing a simple interface with power, I believe. It's all right, a lot of people do it, thinking that only if it has a thousand switches and buttons can it ever possibly be used for advanced things. cf: MS marketing.
Originally posted by GregAlexander
The URL you gave has a graphic about half way down which shows a pull down formatting menu for a paragraph, with the word "footer" in it.
So you can make a paragraph in the style of a "footer". But does that mean they do it like MS Word etc?
Not to mention this text in the sidebar:
Add time stamps, page numbers or page counts to document headers and footers
Originally posted by Mac Voyer
From what was demonstrated, it seems to have little to do with competing with Word. You put it best when you said
'one of those simple and cheap programs marketed towards those more interested in simple and fast home-oriented projects'.
Has anyone seen or heard anything about this program that would suggest otherwise?
Just because Pages does layout and presentation much better than most word processors do doesn't mean it is only a Print Shop-like program.
Pages is a word processor.
It may not compete with Word feature for feature (and as a regular college student, I really don't even have any idea what all those features are), but I can tell you one thing: I'm dropping Word for Pages. I think there will be plenty of people who will too. That alone should suggest to you that Pages does compete with Word on some level.
The main show stopping bug at the moment is controlling the line spacing when using subscripts (which as a scientist, I need to use ALL the time). It is currently impossible to use subscripts in a cocoa text document while keeping the spacing of the lines constant. It works for superscripts, but not for subscripts. Apple people have confirmed that this is a current limitation. However, when I asked someone with Tiger to test if it had been fixed, they said no.
I will certainly buy Pages, as I have suffered with the 'trying-to-write-grant-proposal-but-Bill-Gates-knows where-the-images-should-be-placed-better-than-me' problems with Word that someone mentioned above.
I would be VERY interested to know if Apple has solved the problems with linespacing and subscripts in Pages.
A related problem is that when applying subscripts and superscripts, the size of the font is not automatically reduced, so you end up having to do this manually. You really need a nice single keyboard shortcut that will apply the subscript, reduce its fontsize, and KEEP THE LINE SPACING CONSTANT!!!!!!
Was anyone able to test this stuff out at MacWorld?
Cheers
Rich
Originally posted by magnetomac
If the word processing part of Pages is based on the standard text engine that runs textedit, create, keynote, and other cocoa programs, then can I assume that it will have all the same bugs and problems that these apps currently have?
The main show stopping bug at the moment is controlling the line spacing when using subscripts (which as a scientist, I need to use ALL the time).
It definitely does use the same text engine and features. The super- and subscript line spacing problem is apparently a known issue at Apple. I don't know if it will be fixed in Tiger though. Check out this thread in the Stone Design forums for Andrew's confirmation that Apple at least knows about this issue, but he can't comment on what's to come:
http://www.stone.com/stoneforum/viewtopic.php?t=200
It seems like you could create a page in Pages, transfer this to Keynote and then put transitions, etc. to it.
You could then have the header show up, then a column, then another column and so forth.
Does this seem reasonable? If so, Keynote may have become a whole lot more powerful.
I only wonder this because I saw the Group and Ungroup thing in the Pages toolbar preferences which seems like layering of some kind is going on.
Originally posted by magnetomac
The main show stopping bug at the moment is controlling the line spacing when using subscripts (which as a scientist, I need to use ALL the time).
Have you considered LaTeX? I use it daily, for precisely the fact that it does equations and intelligent placement of elements quickly, easily and intelligently. Coupled with TeXShop, you get most of the goodies of a WP for the text editing, and then let LaTeX handle the layout.
I have considered latex, but I simply don't have the time to invest in learning how to do it. Maybe it is easier than I think? I did see a nice latex utility the other day to produce pdfs of typeset equations, which almost convinced me to give it a go.
I assume Pages will not come with any sort of equation editor, so we will be stuck with cutting and pasting from the free one that comes with appleworks and word?
I'll definitely buy iWork whatever happens, as keynote kicks serious powerpoint butt!
Cheers
Rich
See, this is where the uber-compositing comes in handy.
If you're interested in LaTeX at all, go get TeXShop. It's free, it handles the installation of the full LaTeX system for you, and it works beautifully. It's primarily a text editor for raw LaTeX production, but it also has palettes and pop-up menus for generating the LaTeX for you until you learn it. (I find that after a while, typing it in is faster.) Also, one button click, and you have a beautiful PDF file to send to folks. I couldn't live without it.
Equation Service lets you type in a quick LaTeX equation anywhere, in any application, select the text, hit Cmd-< and a tiny PDF of your equation, stunningly rendered, will be sitting in your pasteboard. Cmd-V, it appears. Voila.
Originally posted by magnetomac
Yes, I have been having the same conversation with Andrew from Create (great program by the way - I can't help thinking that most of the functionality of Pages is already available in Create!).
Actually, Create has much more functionality, though it's geared towards DTP and web publishing, not bibliographies and such. You're greeted with a blank page instead of a selection of themes, so it's more of a make-your-own-theme artists' kind of environment. And the choices of included vector art, images, blends, etc. are limited. (That's partly my fault.) It's not a WP though, and not made for all the scientific whatnot you're talking about, at least not yet. The text tools are again based on the standard cocoa text objects (and thus will also improve with Tiger, whatever that will bring). For long documents, you do most of the typing outside the app, drop in the text and Create will generate the pages needed to fit it and auto-flow the text.
Actually, Create is exactly why I want Apple to make its Keynote rulers standard issue for third-party use. Andrew has enhanced the currrent Apple-supplied rulers nicely, but the auto-alignment guides are just so nice to use.
Actually, Pages gives Create a clearer direction to go because there was thoughts thrown around to make it more "color by numbers," but Pages has stepped in to that spot. But I digress...
Originally posted by GregAlexander
I wonder if Cells relates more to a database than spreadsheet. Indeed, with a database built into every OS Apple may be rethinking Filemaker.
Also, any Database 'app' they have could act as a spreadsheet - by basically simplifying the interface. Couldn't it?
Holy crap, I hadn't even considered that!
With SQLite built right into Tiger, all Apple needs is a good interface with calls to SQLite, and "Requires MacOS 10.4 or higher" on the box. Instant database application.
If Apple were to look after its own writers in this way, the result may well be a compelling solution not just for technical writers, but also for the education market. And there's the rub. If Pages were to become the educational writer's tool of choice, it might well presage a welcome resurgence in one of Apple's favourite markets.
http://www.stone.com/Create_Screenshot.html
I'm sure it works as advertised, but I won't use it based on aesthetic reasons. (I've tried to, many times over the years. Just doesn't feel Mac-like or finished or pro).
It would be nice if they came out with a simple to use DB. Make a simple data model and then make something akin to Hypercard sheets on top, that with a few click / drag operations linked up to your data...