I switch between a G4 PB trackpad, Kensington 5 button wired mouse and ye olde single button rubber wheel mouse on my three-year old son's Colour Classic.
It's horses for courses: most of what I do on the PB (emails, brief letters, occasional Photoshop tweaks) needs no more than the (now old-style) trackpad. Similarly playing Shufflepuck or Lemmings requires only one button. But for serious work a multi-button mouse is essential, especially for the scroll. Indeed I could live with no more than two buttons as long as I had the scroll. There's a good letter in a recent (UK) MacUser on configuring a three button mouse to forward delete, etc, which I intend try.
Can't agree that two button will destroy the UI philosphy. The shift from 9 to OSX destroyed many of the original Mac UI paradigms, and we all learned to live with that pretty quickly, didn't we ?
Shame Jef Raskin isn't around to comment- or did Apple wait out of respect before leaking the two button rumour ?
And the one-button mouse has been about simplicity, not "well, if we put out a two button mouse, developers will stop following guidelines, so let's not do it!". That hasn't stopped developers from making crappy, non-standard interfaces that don't interact the way they should.
No, nothing will stop a crappy developer from really screwing up if they try hard enough. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try and make them have to try harder though. Ask anyone involved inside Apple, and they'll tell you the same thing - it's not about the user, it's about the developers. Look at the quality of UI coming out of the Windows and Linux worlds... can we say ew? I'm not talking about the look, I'm talking about the behaviour and usability. You have to click on every bloody thing once with each button to try and find all the features, then remember which button to click on what with to do what you want. That's not discoverable or memorable. Secondary (tertiary, etc) buttons should be just that: secondary (tertiary, etc). Requiring developers to write for a one-button system enforces good usability principles.
Quote:
Oh, and if you go into iTunes, right-click/ctrl-click on a song, you have the option to reset a song's playcount. I, for the life of me, can't find anywhere else to perform this task. Seems apple is having trouble following their own rules if that's what the one-button mouse thing was for.
No one's perfect. You're right, that's a screw up. Again, that doesn't mean that we should toss the whole idea out the window because it only works for 99% of the time.
I vote for a three button mouse with no scroll wheel - I hate scroll wheels, and I need three buttons for X-windows via VNC.
Yes, please. If Apple wants to amaze everyone, a real three button mouse would be the way to do it. The competition is pretty limited in the three button space anyhow, Belkin has a cheap one that is mechanical rather than optical. Then the only other one for sale I know of costs something like $100 and it's shaped to fit your hand and handedness.
There's no problem with having a 'Pro' two-button mouse as an option, but the day they ship it as standard they lose a huge market of people recovering/avoiding RSI problems. One-button is nice on the tendons.
The only problem is that if they bless it we may start to see software listing "Pro Mouse" as a requirement.
Ya know what's interesting. On a desktop I typically can't stand using a one-button mouse and always opt for a 3 button/scroll type. But on my powerbook. Having only one clicker is awesome! It has enabled me to be more efficient and streamlined in regards to web browsing and even general clickery!
Oh yea, the problem with having a 2+ button 'pro' mouse is that apple wouldn't be doing this for pros, they are doing it for windows converts buying mac minis. So it would likely be marketed for them more than for pros buying dp 2.5 g5s with 4+ GB of RAM and a terabyte of storage.
I could see apple doing it, but I dunno, the one button mouse really is fine, sure *I* prefer to use more buttons on a desktop, but I'm not a typical computer user, I've known many people who don't know what to do with anything more than 2 buttons, and 1 button is a relief. *shrug*
Now I hate Microsoft just as much as the next mac head but I have to say that the IntelliMouse is the best mouse I have ever used with my PowerMac. The left and right buttons are essential (click and control-click) and the scroll wheel (because I have the 4.0 version) lets me scroll down and across documents quickly. Now the kicker is the two buttons placed on the side which are accessable easily by your thumb. I have the forword one set to act as "F9" and the back one set to act as "F11". I can't believe I ever functioned as a computer user before I figured this out. I can navigate through a huge stack of windows without using my left hand or letting go of my mouse, I can open any document on my desktop just as easy. In my opinion, Apple should pull a "Microsoft" and try to copy this design as much as possible. There are definitly ways to improve upon it and "Apple" it but all-in-all this is how I feel a mouse should work in 10.3+ (maybe even add a third thumbable button for dashboard - you really souldn't have to use your keyboard for Exposé).
Requiring developers to write for a one-button system enforces good usability principles.
But it's not a one button system, it's a one button + control key system, unless you want to click on the file/icon then mouse all the way up to the taskbar. \
FYI, I am a first time Mac user with a lifelong windoze background. (the new target consumer for Apple) After using my iMac with a Logitech mouse since I got it in August 2003, in December I went and dug out the Apple mouse that came with my iMac and have been forcing myself to learn to use it, because I wanted to see what all the one button fuss was about. While it is a nice mouse in terms of feel/accuracy, I personally find it much more expedient to use a 2+scroll mouse in programs like Illustrator, Office, etc. And I find it much simpler to scroll with a wheel than to click + drag.
The only problem is that if they bless it we may start to see software listing "Pro Mouse" as a requirement. [/B]
I already know what the first one will be: Shake. The system requirements call for a three-button mouse.
Someone mentioned a trackpad on the top of it. What about a small iPod-like scroll wheel with the third button in the middle of that? Or would it be too small to use?
.... But on my powerbook. Having only one clicker is awesome! It has enabled me to be more efficient and streamlined in regards to web browsing and even general clickery!
....
Whether you intended to do so or not, you stumbling onto a significant point. The PowerBook. If only for economic reasons, PowerBooks can't have optional second buttons on laptop touchpads. I don't see how Apple maintains consistency within its product lines with one-button laptops and two-button desktops. It is one button all the way, or two buttons all the way. Fence straddling makes no sense. For now, I am going to regard the two-button Apple mouse as a false rumor that is intended to uncover leakers.
But it's not a one button system, it's a one button + control key system, unless you want to click on the file/icon then mouse all the way up to the taskbar. \
FYI, I am a first time Mac user with a lifelong windoze background.
Taskbar? Methinks you mean menubar.
The problem of the two-button mouse, as Kickaha said, is that developers will often hide options in context menus and not make them discoverable otherwise. The point of the menubar and the one button mouse is to make every command apparent in one place -- the menubar regardless of whether you use it much. The gist is that, if you're looking for something, there's only one place you need to look (well, two if you include Help documentation).
The other thing, which I think is less significant, is that explaining how to deal with a noe button mouse is a lot simpler to learn/teach than a two button system. What makes Mac preferrable to me isn't that they're easier to use than a Windows computer, it's that they're easier to learn. As it happens, this guy wrote about this argument yesterday.
Perhaps one bizarre compromise is to ship a two button mouse where both buttons act like a left mouse button by default.
Oh, and for the record, I thin this rumor is false, but Apple does not push false rumors out to "smoke out" its moles.
Most of the time I find that the Apple mouse works better for me than the multi button mice I have tried. The real issue for me is scrolling and I've found that the PowerMate from Griffin Technology is far better than the scroll wheel on a mouse. I've also found that the Apple mouse is easier on the fingers when doing a lot of clicking - definitely a RSI issue for many.
I'm fine with one button 90% of the time, but when it comes to gaming I like two.
I hope Apple implements some NEW method of scrolling. Wheels are OK but not great. Something with no moving parts (but better than Kensington's pad) sounds ideal. A small iPod wheel (good for true continuous scrolling)? Or a circular area that scrolls both horiz and vert like the new PowerBooks?
I think it's also very likely to be a product that never leaves the labs. But Apple does change sometimes: the Mac Mini for instance.
I'm not worried about developers suddenly asuming EVERYone has a two-button mouse, since I'm sure many Mac buyers will still be getting one-buton mice/trackpads--and millions are in the market already.
As for HIDING stuff in context-menus like Windows does, devs can already be lazy about that if they wish. They shouldn't--one more UI guideline to promote, but no more important than, say, drag-and-drop text support. No good dev would violate either guideline.
Why wouldn't a wireless mouse be standard? I've seen my share of latency filled wireless mice, but take for example the Logitech MX1000 laser mouse wireless using fastrf. The first wireless mouse with no lag. It's just as fast as a wired one. And I've charged it once in 3 weeks OF DAILY use. ONCE. If you want a wired mouse or need them for lab enviroment (so they dont' run off) then special order for that. As for the pc world wireless mice are pretty much a standard from where I sit. Maybe dell doesn't ship with them, but everyone I know who has a recent pc has a wireless mouse. Wireless is the way to go. Maybed wired should be special order.
Quote:
Originally posted by Louzer
Well, if its wireless, it won't be standard. And why (WHY?) must all macs ship with a two-button mouse?
And I agree with onlooker. Two-buttons is so 1993. If it doesn't have as many buttons as you have fingers, then you're wasting precious digits! [Oh, and if apple does release this, after the "haha, took them long enough" and "about time" postings, it will all be "now where's the scroll wheel? How could they make a mouse without a scroll wheel!" and "How come they limit me to two buttons! Everyone knows you need at least three now" (OK, again, onlooker has already skipped stage one and jumped right to two).
And the one-button mouse has been about simplicity, not "well, if we put out a two button mouse, developers will stop following guidelines, so let's not do it!". That hasn't stopped developers from making crappy, non-standard interfaces that don't interact the way they should.
Oh, and if you go into iTunes, right-click/ctrl-click on a song, you have the option to reset a song's playcount. I, for the life of me, can't find anywhere else to perform this task. Seems apple is having trouble following their own rules if that's what the one-button mouse thing was for.
But it's not a one button system, it's a one button + control key system, unless you want to click on the file/icon then mouse all the way up to the taskbar. \
The ctrl-click is (and should be, just like the second button) considered a more advanced user feature. It is there *SOLELY* for convenience. It should *NEVER* be used to provide functionality that you can't get to with just the single button. (The iTunes 'Reset Play Count' example is an error on the iTunes' team part.)
Many people don't even realize they can ctrl-click on items, and can still use their machine perfectly. Maybe not as *efficiently*, but they can still do everything that a power user with a five button + scroll mouse can do. This lets users scale as their needs scale. Start out as simple as possible, then work your way up as you need to.
If you need that efficiency, you're likely going to know about ctrl-click. If you don't know about ctrl-click, you're not likely to be someone who needs it. Developers can't *assume* that their user base is going to have that knowledge, so they are forced into designing for a single button. This ensures that their apps are discoverable, and that everyone can use them. Then, they can add ctrl-click functionality (or cmd-ctrl, or what have you) as an efficiency tool.
That's one of the beauties of Apple's UI guidelines - they enable a novice to sit down and discover how to use an app through just clicking around, but allow power users to access the same functionality faster.
I started life as a an Apple kid, from 1984-1994. I always used rollerball mice at that time. College steered me in the wrong direction and I ended up with a Dell for 9 years. Just got back into an Apple last year with a dp1.8 pm. I get the single button concept with control click. I find it very easy to use, very efficient, and just plain lovely. I also don't mind losing contextual menus with the right click, as I find command-key shortcuts much faster and better. But I just cannot live without two features that a three button scroll wheel mouse offers (the third button being the scroll wheel when depressed firmly)
1.) Scrolling - I hate. hate. hate using the scroll bars on the side of a window. I agree that the scroll wheel itself is not ideal. I would love an iPod-like wheel on my mouse instead.
2.) Depressing the scroll wheel (third button) to access Expose. I typically work on 6-10 windows/projects at a time and am constantly switching back and forth. The F9 key just doesn't do the same as holding down the third mouse button, pointing at the window I want to switch to, and releasing the button to bring the window I want forward. Every PC user I show that feature to, makes them flip out and want a mac.
IMHO, the ideal Apple Mouse would retain the single button design (depress the whole mouse to activate), but would also have an iPod click-wheel at the front of the mouse, with the central click-point of the scroll wheel the second button to configure as you wish (in my case, to access expose.)
Of course Apple won't ship something like this as standard. Their bread and butter are the accessories. Apple is just finally starting to realize how idiotic it is to let some other company capture all those revenues on the accessory market.
Ok please excuse my shouting, but it needs to be done:
1-BUTTON MICE ARE ESSENTIAL FOR THE 90% OF USERS WHO HAVE NO CLUE WHAT THEY ARE DOING. DON'T BELIEVE ME? ASK ANY PC TECH SUPPORT REP AND YOU WILL GET THE SAME ANSWER.
2-BUTTON = PRO = 10% (OR SO)
1-BUTTON = NEWBIES = 90%
WHY HAS THE MAC ALWAYS BEEN "SIMPLE" AND "EASY"? BECAUSE OF THE 1-BUTTON PHILOSOPHY.
AS SOMEONE ELSE SAID, THE 2ND (NTH) BUTTON(S) SHOULD ONLY EXIST AS A CONVENIENCE, NOT AS A REQUIREMENT ALA WINBLOWS.
I like cordless mouses but I hate batteries. And I also hate having to redo synchronization periodically on bluetooth mouses.
I'm currently using a three buttons & wheel mouse which is super-light, cordless, totally battery-free and also ball-free.
It's a wacom tablet mouse. I was using it as a tablet but as my main mouse broke, I began using the mouse which was provided with the tablet.
And I must say I now consider it to be a perfect solution. The tablet serves now as a mouse pad and since the wacom driver has a special mode for mouse movements, it's as precise and confortable to use as a regular mouse.
The main drawback is that its use is limited to the mouse pad (tablet) surface. And since mine is quite small, it's a problem when playing games such as ut2003... Maybe I'll buy a bigger tablet or just use a regular mouse for games (I don't like joysticks).
Comments
It's horses for courses: most of what I do on the PB (emails, brief letters, occasional Photoshop tweaks) needs no more than the (now old-style) trackpad. Similarly playing Shufflepuck or Lemmings requires only one button. But for serious work a multi-button mouse is essential, especially for the scroll. Indeed I could live with no more than two buttons as long as I had the scroll. There's a good letter in a recent (UK) MacUser on configuring a three button mouse to forward delete, etc, which I intend try.
Can't agree that two button will destroy the UI philosphy. The shift from 9 to OSX destroyed many of the original Mac UI paradigms, and we all learned to live with that pretty quickly, didn't we ?
Shame Jef Raskin isn't around to comment- or did Apple wait out of respect before leaking the two button rumour ?
Originally posted by Louzer
And the one-button mouse has been about simplicity, not "well, if we put out a two button mouse, developers will stop following guidelines, so let's not do it!". That hasn't stopped developers from making crappy, non-standard interfaces that don't interact the way they should.
No, nothing will stop a crappy developer from really screwing up if they try hard enough. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try and make them have to try harder though. Ask anyone involved inside Apple, and they'll tell you the same thing - it's not about the user, it's about the developers. Look at the quality of UI coming out of the Windows and Linux worlds... can we say ew? I'm not talking about the look, I'm talking about the behaviour and usability. You have to click on every bloody thing once with each button to try and find all the features, then remember which button to click on what with to do what you want. That's not discoverable or memorable. Secondary (tertiary, etc) buttons should be just that: secondary (tertiary, etc). Requiring developers to write for a one-button system enforces good usability principles.
Oh, and if you go into iTunes, right-click/ctrl-click on a song, you have the option to reset a song's playcount. I, for the life of me, can't find anywhere else to perform this task. Seems apple is having trouble following their own rules if that's what the one-button mouse thing was for.
No one's perfect. You're right, that's a screw up. Again, that doesn't mean that we should toss the whole idea out the window because it only works for 99% of the time.
Originally posted by livings124
I hope it has a "scroll-wheel" like the new laptops, so there's no actual scroll-wheel, but the whole front of the mouse can be used as one.
I'd buy one like that, for sure. That is a very good idea.
Originally posted by e1618978
I vote for a three button mouse with no scroll wheel - I hate scroll wheels, and I need three buttons for X-windows via VNC.
Yes, please. If Apple wants to amaze everyone, a real three button mouse would be the way to do it. The competition is pretty limited in the three button space anyhow, Belkin has a cheap one that is mechanical rather than optical. Then the only other one for sale I know of costs something like $100 and it's shaped to fit your hand and handedness.
http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProdu...duct_Id=147254
http://www.contourdesign.com/perfit.htm
The only problem is that if they bless it we may start to see software listing "Pro Mouse" as a requirement.
Oh yea, the problem with having a 2+ button 'pro' mouse is that apple wouldn't be doing this for pros, they are doing it for windows converts buying mac minis. So it would likely be marketed for them more than for pros buying dp 2.5 g5s with 4+ GB of RAM and a terabyte of storage.
I could see apple doing it, but I dunno, the one button mouse really is fine, sure *I* prefer to use more buttons on a desktop, but I'm not a typical computer user, I've known many people who don't know what to do with anything more than 2 buttons, and 1 button is a relief. *shrug*
Originally posted by Kickaha
Requiring developers to write for a one-button system enforces good usability principles.
But it's not a one button system, it's a one button + control key system, unless you want to click on the file/icon then mouse all the way up to the taskbar.
FYI, I am a first time Mac user with a lifelong windoze background. (the new target consumer for Apple) After using my iMac with a Logitech mouse since I got it in August 2003, in December I went and dug out the Apple mouse that came with my iMac and have been forcing myself to learn to use it, because I wanted to see what all the one button fuss was about. While it is a nice mouse in terms of feel/accuracy, I personally find it much more expedient to use a 2+scroll mouse in programs like Illustrator, Office, etc. And I find it much simpler to scroll with a wheel than to click + drag.
Originally posted by ClimbingTheLog
The only problem is that if they bless it we may start to see software listing "Pro Mouse" as a requirement. [/B]
I already know what the first one will be: Shake. The system requirements call for a three-button mouse.
Someone mentioned a trackpad on the top of it. What about a small iPod-like scroll wheel with the third button in the middle of that? Or would it be too small to use?
Originally posted by Wrong Robot
.... But on my powerbook. Having only one clicker is awesome! It has enabled me to be more efficient and streamlined in regards to web browsing and even general clickery!
....
Whether you intended to do so or not, you stumbling onto a significant point. The PowerBook. If only for economic reasons, PowerBooks can't have optional second buttons on laptop touchpads. I don't see how Apple maintains consistency within its product lines with one-button laptops and two-button desktops. It is one button all the way, or two buttons all the way. Fence straddling makes no sense. For now, I am going to regard the two-button Apple mouse as a false rumor that is intended to uncover leakers.
Originally posted by iPoster
But it's not a one button system, it's a one button + control key system, unless you want to click on the file/icon then mouse all the way up to the taskbar.
FYI, I am a first time Mac user with a lifelong windoze background.
Taskbar?
The problem of the two-button mouse, as Kickaha said, is that developers will often hide options in context menus and not make them discoverable otherwise. The point of the menubar and the one button mouse is to make every command apparent in one place -- the menubar regardless of whether you use it much. The gist is that, if you're looking for something, there's only one place you need to look (well, two if you include Help documentation).
The other thing, which I think is less significant, is that explaining how to deal with a noe button mouse is a lot simpler to learn/teach than a two button system. What makes Mac preferrable to me isn't that they're easier to use than a Windows computer, it's that they're easier to learn. As it happens, this guy wrote about this argument yesterday.
Perhaps one bizarre compromise is to ship a two button mouse where both buttons act like a left mouse button by default.
Oh, and for the record, I thin this rumor is false, but Apple does not push false rumors out to "smoke out" its moles.
I hope Apple implements some NEW method of scrolling. Wheels are OK but not great. Something with no moving parts (but better than Kensington's pad) sounds ideal. A small iPod wheel (good for true continuous scrolling)? Or a circular area that scrolls both horiz and vert like the new PowerBooks?
I think it's also very likely to be a product that never leaves the labs. But Apple does change sometimes: the Mac Mini for instance.
I'm not worried about developers suddenly asuming EVERYone has a two-button mouse, since I'm sure many Mac buyers will still be getting one-buton mice/trackpads--and millions are in the market already.
As for HIDING stuff in context-menus like Windows does, devs can already be lazy about that if they wish. They shouldn't--one more UI guideline to promote, but no more important than, say, drag-and-drop text support. No good dev would violate either guideline.
Originally posted by Louzer
Well, if its wireless, it won't be standard. And why (WHY?) must all macs ship with a two-button mouse?
And I agree with onlooker. Two-buttons is so 1993. If it doesn't have as many buttons as you have fingers, then you're wasting precious digits! [Oh, and if apple does release this, after the "haha, took them long enough" and "about time" postings, it will all be "now where's the scroll wheel? How could they make a mouse without a scroll wheel!" and "How come they limit me to two buttons! Everyone knows you need at least three now" (OK, again, onlooker has already skipped stage one and jumped right to two).
And the one-button mouse has been about simplicity, not "well, if we put out a two button mouse, developers will stop following guidelines, so let's not do it!". That hasn't stopped developers from making crappy, non-standard interfaces that don't interact the way they should.
Oh, and if you go into iTunes, right-click/ctrl-click on a song, you have the option to reset a song's playcount. I, for the life of me, can't find anywhere else to perform this task. Seems apple is having trouble following their own rules if that's what the one-button mouse thing was for.
Originally posted by iPoster
But it's not a one button system, it's a one button + control key system, unless you want to click on the file/icon then mouse all the way up to the taskbar.
The ctrl-click is (and should be, just like the second button) considered a more advanced user feature. It is there *SOLELY* for convenience. It should *NEVER* be used to provide functionality that you can't get to with just the single button. (The iTunes 'Reset Play Count' example is an error on the iTunes' team part.)
Many people don't even realize they can ctrl-click on items, and can still use their machine perfectly. Maybe not as *efficiently*, but they can still do everything that a power user with a five button + scroll mouse can do. This lets users scale as their needs scale. Start out as simple as possible, then work your way up as you need to.
If you need that efficiency, you're likely going to know about ctrl-click. If you don't know about ctrl-click, you're not likely to be someone who needs it. Developers can't *assume* that their user base is going to have that knowledge, so they are forced into designing for a single button. This ensures that their apps are discoverable, and that everyone can use them. Then, they can add ctrl-click functionality (or cmd-ctrl, or what have you) as an efficiency tool.
That's one of the beauties of Apple's UI guidelines - they enable a novice to sit down and discover how to use an app through just clicking around, but allow power users to access the same functionality faster.
1.) Scrolling - I hate. hate. hate using the scroll bars on the side of a window. I agree that the scroll wheel itself is not ideal. I would love an iPod-like wheel on my mouse instead.
2.) Depressing the scroll wheel (third button) to access Expose. I typically work on 6-10 windows/projects at a time and am constantly switching back and forth. The F9 key just doesn't do the same as holding down the third mouse button, pointing at the window I want to switch to, and releasing the button to bring the window I want forward. Every PC user I show that feature to, makes them flip out and want a mac.
IMHO, the ideal Apple Mouse would retain the single button design (depress the whole mouse to activate), but would also have an iPod click-wheel at the front of the mouse, with the central click-point of the scroll wheel the second button to configure as you wish (in my case, to access expose.)
Of course Apple won't ship something like this as standard. Their bread and butter are the accessories. Apple is just finally starting to realize how idiotic it is to let some other company capture all those revenues on the accessory market.
1-BUTTON MICE ARE ESSENTIAL FOR THE 90% OF USERS WHO HAVE NO CLUE WHAT THEY ARE DOING. DON'T BELIEVE ME? ASK ANY PC TECH SUPPORT REP AND YOU WILL GET THE SAME ANSWER.
2-BUTTON = PRO = 10% (OR SO)
1-BUTTON = NEWBIES = 90%
WHY HAS THE MAC ALWAYS BEEN "SIMPLE" AND "EASY"? BECAUSE OF THE 1-BUTTON PHILOSOPHY.
AS SOMEONE ELSE SAID, THE 2ND (NTH) BUTTON(S) SHOULD ONLY EXIST AS A CONVENIENCE, NOT AS A REQUIREMENT ALA WINBLOWS.
Ok done. Sorry, won't happen again
I'm currently using a three buttons & wheel mouse which is super-light, cordless, totally battery-free and also ball-free.
It's a wacom tablet mouse. I was using it as a tablet but as my main mouse broke, I began using the mouse which was provided with the tablet.
And I must say I now consider it to be a perfect solution. The tablet serves now as a mouse pad and since the wacom driver has a special mode for mouse movements, it's as precise and confortable to use as a regular mouse.
The main drawback is that its use is limited to the mouse pad (tablet) surface. And since mine is quite small, it's a problem when playing games such as ut2003... Maybe I'll buy a bigger tablet or just use a regular mouse for games (I don't like joysticks).
no ball, no cord, no battery!