does this not seem to everyone else like apple is starting to cater to the new PC business roped in from the ipod sales? If apple is seriously considering this after years of sticking to the simple and functional idea that works just fine for many many users, what is next? i don't like the idea that apple is willing to abandon ideas rooted in functionality, ease of use, good design and everything that makes apple apple just to make some switchers more comfortable.
Oh and by the way, how to accommodate Powerbook users?
Well, iScroll offers a great little feature: with 2 fingers on the trackpad, the click becomes a right click. Wouldn't be too hard for apple to include that in their firmware.
I already know what the first one will be: Shake. The system requirements call for a three-button mouse.
Someone mentioned a trackpad on the top of it. What about a small iPod-like scroll wheel with the third button in the middle of that? Or would it be too small to use?
Sort of like this really!
Apple attempts to patent iPod-like ?scroll-disk? mouse
Perhaps one bizarre compromise is to ship a two button mouse where both buttons act like a left mouse button by default.
Not as crazy as you might think...
Many early-ish Carbon applications that were more OS 9 beasts than OS X interpret 2nd (and higher) mouse button clicks as left-clicks.
Personally, I've never really enjoyed using the one-button mouse. The Apple Pro mouse was a gorgeous device, but I really, really miss the scroll wheel in particular.
And that's where I think Apple could improve on the design most. More than any clicking, using my index finger for scrolling causes a bit of pain in the knuckle. The problem is you're not only curling the finger, but lifting it also. I'd love just a single finger-pad wide touch sensitive strip running vertically between the two buttons. That'll work for scrolling, and maybe be tap-sensitive (or use the iPod's click-wheel button) for middle-click.
For what it's worth, I find a multi-button mouse invaluable for web browsing. I use a bluetooth Logitech MX-900 mouse. The back & forward thumb buttons on the left side are used for back/forward in web browsers, and up/down folder levels in Finder. Middle-click is open web link in new browser tab. Left & right click are standard, and the other 3 buttons are for switching tab in Safari, hide current application, and Expose's 'all of current application's windows' mode. I have the other two Expose modes (show desktop, and show all open windows) set up as screen hot corners.
You know, another reason why they might be doing this is that they're just getting a lot of people (like me) who ordered a Mac mini with a Apple keyboard and no mouse. So, why not sell an Apple branded multi-button mouse and keep the extra $10+ markup themselves.
It'll be an awful day for me though when my three button Logitech Wingman Gaming Mouse gives out. I've never had a mouse fit my hand so perfectly. I just wish Logitech would re-introduce this mouse with optical tracking.
>1 button mice by default will kill the UI consistency. Period.
One-button as default isn't for the users, it's for the developers. It *forces* them to adhere to the UI guidelines regarding discovery, which are solid, well-founded, established, proven, and there for a reason.
The day Apple ships a 2+-button mouse as default is the day they have jumped the shark.
Exposé was designed with the idea of multiple button mice. Maybe the second button is for exposé/dashboard! This will keep the UI consistency.
I love my PowerBook and having a one button doesn't hinder it at all. I use the control key but nowhere near as much as the fn key. The scroll trackpad is more important than the second button in my opinion. I want an Apple mouse with a scroll wheel more than a two button mouse (although how you'd have a one button mouse with scroll wheel would be confusing for the users!)
Quote:
1-BUTTON = NEWBIES
And in response to this, the Apple has the control key, if developers build second button requirements - which they do really, users would be able to use the control key. Problem solved. However, in windows there is no alternative. My question is will a laptop second button be introduced? A second button would actually mke the OS more intuitive as most people are used to Windows. Having no second button and teaching people to control-click is anti-intuitive (for switchers).
I love people who say things like "Scroll wheels are an ergonomic nightmare, there have been studies!"
Seems easier than clicking on the arrows to me, mission accomplished!
Also, some people had a problem with wireless mice. I have a MX1000 as I mentioned before, and it has equal latency to USB, plus maybe 1ms which I can't notice and I'm a gamer (yes I have a PC too).
The only thing different about Logitech wireless mice is the weight.
Of course, Apple's mouse will probably be bluetooth, which is much slower.
The current version ships with a 3.5mm mini-Audio jack for analog or optical digital sound, but requires that users purchase a $40 kit to tap the optical interface.
I'll say it again, click and hold is even better than a right click. It's hidden, emulated and you don't need extra buttons.
And if you think about it, Apple isn't about adding extra buttons. The latest iteration of the iPod has the fewest buttons it's ever had. Compare 1G with 4G. They're about making it simple. I'm sure if this rumor is true, the second button on the mouse will be in the form of an integrated click pad, very iPod-ish and will seem as obvious as the click-wheel.
Keep it simple. The one button mouse is more than enough for me. I prefer scrolling with the keyboard arrows since they also allow left and right, not just up and down.
On a side note, I think it would be very intuitive of Apple to replace the arrow keys on the keyboard with a click wheel. Up, down, left, and right would all still be clickable but you could also use it to scroll through a document, a list of files, your iTunes database, or anything for that matter. There could also be a center button designated to certain actions based on the application you are running (i.e. open the selected file in the Finder, play the selected son in iTunes, switch between vertical and horizontal scrolling in a document). If the click wheel is so friggin? great why hasn?t it made its way to my desktop yet.
I'll say it again, click and hold is even better than a right click. It's hidden, emulated and you don't need extra buttons.
And if you think about it, Apple isn't about adding extra buttons. The latest iteration of the iPod has the fewest buttons it's ever had. Compare 1G with 4G. They're about making it simple. I'm sure if this rumor is true, the second button on the mouse will be in the form of an integrated click pad, very iPod-ish and will seem as obvious as the click-wheel.
Keep it simple. The one button mouse is more than enough for me. I prefer scrolling with the keyboard arrows since they also allow left and right, not just up and down.
click and hold takes too long and makes the computer seem slow.
You could adjust that through the System preferences panel quite easily.
Where?
Besides, if Apple's going to start using contextual menus, they NEED a right button.
I think Apple should give a CHOICE to users. Maybe ship the KB and mouse seperately. Maybe they should offer various mouse and keyboard options like from other vendors.
Almost no other company lets you do that! It'd be "different"!
Apple forces us into all kinds of uncomfortable buying positions (PPC, not enough drive bays, etc).. why not make up for it by letting us choose our own peripherals?
As many people seem to think, we are "paying" for that mouse and keyboard, so why don't we get what we want?
Carpel tunnel...... although not serious, "or life threatening" is not a good thing! period!
I Suffered many days with bouts with it from all the right left right left right clicking and scrolling with those little wheels and buttons which is why i switched from those horrible things, the one button simplicity is part of the reason why i switched... I can rest my hand gently and put a little pressure on it and voila...
it has saved my hand.... you know the scroll buttons are built into the gui in safari hold down your mac mouse and let it scroll for you, much easier!!!!!
as an option ok.... as standard HELL NO! should apple start inventing viruses and anit virus programs so you people can run all those programs you are so used to? no.... then why make everything to cater to windows people who use crap and think its good for them....... one button till death do us part!
rest easy one buttoneers their are so many people that have used mac for so long that love it the way it is that they would raise so much hell if it were different............. so we will have both im sure
Are you in hicksville, Ohio by chance? (it's a real city)
5ish years ago I spent 6 months working for bellsouth providing tech support. In that amount of time I took well over 8,000 calls. We used to say "click the second button" or right click bring up properties to all the customers, to first check the windows internet settings. In all the time I (remember it well) ONLY ONCE was I ever questioned about "right click".
1 person. that was 5 years ago. I don't know a single person in any country that has computers that can't do a right click. 2 button mouse is just as easy as 1 button mouse.
Quote:
Originally posted by kainjow
Ok please excuse my shouting, but it needs to be done:
1-BUTTON MICE ARE ESSENTIAL FOR THE 90% OF USERS WHO HAVE NO CLUE WHAT THEY ARE DOING. DON'T BELIEVE ME? ASK ANY PC TECH SUPPORT REP AND YOU WILL GET THE SAME ANSWER.
2-BUTTON = PRO = 10% (OR SO)
1-BUTTON = NEWBIES = 90%
WHY HAS THE MAC ALWAYS BEEN "SIMPLE" AND "EASY"? BECAUSE OF THE 1-BUTTON PHILOSOPHY.
AS SOMEONE ELSE SAID, THE 2ND (NTH) BUTTON(S) SHOULD ONLY EXIST AS A CONVENIENCE, NOT AS A REQUIREMENT ALA WINBLOWS.
Everyone gets sore if they use any input device too long. But i'd say 95% of us don't have serious problems from a scroll wheel and use one everyday. The 5% (you included) can buy a special mouse to suite your needs. Not the other way around.
Quote:
Originally posted by Catman4d2
Carpel tunnel...... although not serious, "or life threatening" is not a good thing! period!
I Suffered many days with bouts with it from all the right left right left right clicking and scrolling with those little wheels and buttons which is why i switched from those horrible things, the one button simplicity is part of the reason why i switched... I can rest my hand gently and put a little pressure on it and voila...
it has saved my hand.... you know the scroll buttons are built into the gui in safari hold down your mac mouse and let it scroll for you, much easier!!!!!
as an option ok.... as standard HELL NO! should apple start inventing viruses and anit virus programs so you people can run all those programs you are so used to? no.... then why make everything to cater to windows people who use crap and think its good for them....... one button till death do us part!
rest easy one buttoneers their are so many people that have used mac for so long that love it the way it is that they would raise so much hell if it were different............. so we will have both im sure
I use a $10 Kensington two-button scroll wheel mouse that is more comfortable than any of the four Apple mice I have collecting dust in drawers. It works fine and the second button and scroll wheel work very well with basically all my applications. It's more comfortable than Apple mice too, which require more 'wrist action', which hurts after a while. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if Apple is changing mice designs because there is a pending lawsuit over carpal tunnel syndrome and the crappy ergonomics (albeit nice aesthetics) of the current Apple mice.
The only reason anyone with any sense ever bought an Apple one-button mouse for $50 was because Apple had the market cornered on the stupid things.
it has saved my hand.... you know the scroll buttons are built into the gui in safari hold down your mac mouse and let it scroll for you, much easier!!!!!
What causes carple tunnel is doing things with your fingers while your wrist is bent backwards (where your knuckles are approaching your shoulder).
When the wrist is bent in such a away, it puts pressure on a nerve capsule in the wrist called the carple tunnel, amazingly enough.
It is located, IIRC, just toward the edge of your wrist bordering the final tendon on the thumb side. It will actually hurt when you put pressure on that area if you have CTS.
The cure? keep your wrist as straight as possible, or even bend it in the other direction (think the left hand of a guitar player).
Thus, the reason the one button saved your hand is probably because it is more flat and your wrist was more straight. A wrist pad would've done the same, or do what I do and use the chair's armrests to put your forearms on.
Comments
A few ideas:
? Someone mentioned it rocking left or right for left or right clicks.
? Buttons are touch sensitive like iPod 3G buttons. There is no click, there really are no buttons. Flush with mouse.
? Similarly, scroll pad is in middle, similar to PB pad.
? Here's a good idea: the mouse top is a pad like a PB track pad. Use 1 finger for left-click, two fingers for right click, scrollable.
? Or perhaps have the click analog instead of digital! By applying different amounts of pressure you could change your click.
Best thing about this is that it must be turned on in System Prefs.
Well, iScroll offers a great little feature: with 2 fingers on the trackpad, the click becomes a right click. Wouldn't be too hard for apple to include that in their firmware.
Originally posted by arlodesign
I already know what the first one will be: Shake. The system requirements call for a three-button mouse.
Someone mentioned a trackpad on the top of it. What about a small iPod-like scroll wheel with the third button in the middle of that? Or would it be too small to use?
Sort of like this really!
Apple attempts to patent iPod-like ?scroll-disk? mouse
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/04...tent_ipodlike/
Patent Application:
http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...DN/20030076303
And for good measure an artist's impression:
Originally posted by BuonRotto
Perhaps one bizarre compromise is to ship a two button mouse where both buttons act like a left mouse button by default.
Not as crazy as you might think...
Many early-ish Carbon applications that were more OS 9 beasts than OS X interpret 2nd (and higher) mouse button clicks as left-clicks.
Personally, I've never really enjoyed using the one-button mouse. The Apple Pro mouse was a gorgeous device, but I really, really miss the scroll wheel in particular.
And that's where I think Apple could improve on the design most. More than any clicking, using my index finger for scrolling causes a bit of pain in the knuckle. The problem is you're not only curling the finger, but lifting it also. I'd love just a single finger-pad wide touch sensitive strip running vertically between the two buttons. That'll work for scrolling, and maybe be tap-sensitive (or use the iPod's click-wheel button) for middle-click.
For what it's worth, I find a multi-button mouse invaluable for web browsing. I use a bluetooth Logitech MX-900 mouse. The back & forward thumb buttons on the left side are used for back/forward in web browsers, and up/down folder levels in Finder. Middle-click is open web link in new browser tab. Left & right click are standard, and the other 3 buttons are for switching tab in Safari, hide current application, and Expose's 'all of current application's windows' mode. I have the other two Expose modes (show desktop, and show all open windows) set up as screen hot corners.
It'll be an awful day for me though when my three button Logitech Wingman Gaming Mouse gives out. I've never had a mouse fit my hand so perfectly. I just wish Logitech would re-introduce this mouse with optical tracking.
Originally posted by Kickaha
>1 button mice by default will kill the UI consistency. Period.
One-button as default isn't for the users, it's for the developers. It *forces* them to adhere to the UI guidelines regarding discovery, which are solid, well-founded, established, proven, and there for a reason.
The day Apple ships a 2+-button mouse as default is the day they have jumped the shark.
Exposé was designed with the idea of multiple button mice. Maybe the second button is for exposé/dashboard! This will keep the UI consistency.
I love my PowerBook and having a one button doesn't hinder it at all. I use the control key but nowhere near as much as the fn key. The scroll trackpad is more important than the second button in my opinion. I want an Apple mouse with a scroll wheel more than a two button mouse (although how you'd have a one button mouse with scroll wheel would be confusing for the users!)
1-BUTTON = NEWBIES
And in response to this, the Apple has the control key, if developers build second button requirements - which they do really, users would be able to use the control key. Problem solved. However, in windows there is no alternative. My question is will a laptop second button be introduced? A second button would actually mke the OS more intuitive as most people are used to Windows. Having no second button and teaching people to control-click is anti-intuitive (for switchers).
Seems easier than clicking on the arrows to me, mission accomplished!
Also, some people had a problem with wireless mice. I have a MX1000 as I mentioned before, and it has equal latency to USB, plus maybe 1ms which I can't notice and I'm a gamer (yes I have a PC too).
The only thing different about Logitech wireless mice is the weight.
Of course, Apple's mouse will probably be bluetooth, which is much slower.
The current version ships with a 3.5mm mini-Audio jack for analog or optical digital sound, but requires that users purchase a $40 kit to tap the optical interface.
Or $7 at radio shack.
And if you think about it, Apple isn't about adding extra buttons. The latest iteration of the iPod has the fewest buttons it's ever had. Compare 1G with 4G. They're about making it simple. I'm sure if this rumor is true, the second button on the mouse will be in the form of an integrated click pad, very iPod-ish and will seem as obvious as the click-wheel.
Keep it simple. The one button mouse is more than enough for me. I prefer scrolling with the keyboard arrows since they also allow left and right, not just up and down.
Originally posted by monkeyastronaut
I'll say it again, click and hold is even better than a right click. It's hidden, emulated and you don't need extra buttons.
And if you think about it, Apple isn't about adding extra buttons. The latest iteration of the iPod has the fewest buttons it's ever had. Compare 1G with 4G. They're about making it simple. I'm sure if this rumor is true, the second button on the mouse will be in the form of an integrated click pad, very iPod-ish and will seem as obvious as the click-wheel.
Keep it simple. The one button mouse is more than enough for me. I prefer scrolling with the keyboard arrows since they also allow left and right, not just up and down.
click and hold takes too long and makes the computer seem slow.
Originally posted by MacCrazy
click and hold takes too long and makes the computer seem slow.
You could adjust that through the System preferences panel quite easily.
Originally posted by monkeyastronaut
You could adjust that through the System preferences panel quite easily.
Where?
Besides, if Apple's going to start using contextual menus, they NEED a right button.
I think Apple should give a CHOICE to users. Maybe ship the KB and mouse seperately. Maybe they should offer various mouse and keyboard options like from other vendors.
Almost no other company lets you do that! It'd be "different"!
Apple forces us into all kinds of uncomfortable buying positions (PPC, not enough drive bays, etc).. why not make up for it by letting us choose our own peripherals?
As many people seem to think, we are "paying" for that mouse and keyboard, so why don't we get what we want?
I Suffered many days with bouts with it from all the right left right left right clicking and scrolling with those little wheels and buttons which is why i switched from those horrible things, the one button simplicity is part of the reason why i switched... I can rest my hand gently and put a little pressure on it and voila...
it has saved my hand.... you know the scroll buttons are built into the gui in safari hold down your mac mouse and let it scroll for you, much easier!!!!!
as an option ok.... as standard HELL NO! should apple start inventing viruses and anit virus programs so you people can run all those programs you are so used to? no.... then why make everything to cater to windows people who use crap and think its good for them....... one button till death do us part!
rest easy one buttoneers their are so many people that have used mac for so long that love it the way it is that they would raise so much hell if it were different............. so we will have both im sure
5ish years ago I spent 6 months working for bellsouth providing tech support. In that amount of time I took well over 8,000 calls. We used to say "click the second button" or right click bring up properties to all the customers, to first check the windows internet settings. In all the time I (remember it well) ONLY ONCE was I ever questioned about "right click".
1 person. that was 5 years ago. I don't know a single person in any country that has computers that can't do a right click. 2 button mouse is just as easy as 1 button mouse.
Originally posted by kainjow
Ok please excuse my shouting, but it needs to be done:
1-BUTTON MICE ARE ESSENTIAL FOR THE 90% OF USERS WHO HAVE NO CLUE WHAT THEY ARE DOING. DON'T BELIEVE ME? ASK ANY PC TECH SUPPORT REP AND YOU WILL GET THE SAME ANSWER.
2-BUTTON = PRO = 10% (OR SO)
1-BUTTON = NEWBIES = 90%
WHY HAS THE MAC ALWAYS BEEN "SIMPLE" AND "EASY"? BECAUSE OF THE 1-BUTTON PHILOSOPHY.
AS SOMEONE ELSE SAID, THE 2ND (NTH) BUTTON(S) SHOULD ONLY EXIST AS A CONVENIENCE, NOT AS A REQUIREMENT ALA WINBLOWS.
Ok done. Sorry, won't happen again
Originally posted by Catman4d2
Carpel tunnel...... although not serious, "or life threatening" is not a good thing! period!
I Suffered many days with bouts with it from all the right left right left right clicking and scrolling with those little wheels and buttons which is why i switched from those horrible things, the one button simplicity is part of the reason why i switched... I can rest my hand gently and put a little pressure on it and voila...
it has saved my hand.... you know the scroll buttons are built into the gui in safari hold down your mac mouse and let it scroll for you, much easier!!!!!
as an option ok.... as standard HELL NO! should apple start inventing viruses and anit virus programs so you people can run all those programs you are so used to? no.... then why make everything to cater to windows people who use crap and think its good for them....... one button till death do us part!
rest easy one buttoneers their are so many people that have used mac for so long that love it the way it is that they would raise so much hell if it were different............. so we will have both im sure
The only reason anyone with any sense ever bought an Apple one-button mouse for $50 was because Apple had the market cornered on the stupid things.
Originally posted by Catman4d2
it has saved my hand.... you know the scroll buttons are built into the gui in safari hold down your mac mouse and let it scroll for you, much easier!!!!!
What causes carple tunnel is doing things with your fingers while your wrist is bent backwards (where your knuckles are approaching your shoulder).
When the wrist is bent in such a away, it puts pressure on a nerve capsule in the wrist called the carple tunnel, amazingly enough.
It is located, IIRC, just toward the edge of your wrist bordering the final tendon on the thumb side. It will actually hurt when you put pressure on that area if you have CTS.
The cure? keep your wrist as straight as possible, or even bend it in the other direction (think the left hand of a guitar player).
Thus, the reason the one button saved your hand is probably because it is more flat and your wrist was more straight. A wrist pad would've done the same, or do what I do and use the chair's armrests to put your forearms on.