I would not put gaming in the same category as professional industries. Gaming is not a job.
Generally people who are in video, sound, photography as a business that makes money are willing to pay money for the best gear. They don't shop for bargains.
PLEASE! You don't know gamers if you think they go for the best bargain. I know PLENTY of people who just blindly spend the cash to get the highest maxed out computer they can without ever thinking twice about the price. A friend of mine bought a top of the line Alienware laptop for around 5 grand and without even looking at what he was upgrading he maxed out every single option. The thing is as thick as those lord of the rings extended edition boxes and generates enough heat to sweat out me and a few other people while he was playing WoW, not to mention the day it arrived the graphics card was broke (same thing happened to my friend who got a desktop from IBUYPOWER). Plus most gamers think of it this way: Its a life purchase. They are going to use it everyday. They want the best. They might as well pay the same amount on something thats as important to them as a car (used car but you get the picture)
Oh. You mean like gamers, video guys, sound guys, etc.? \
Hate to break it to ya, but that's definitely more than 1% of the market. Or it could be, for Apple, if only they offered a product for them that was less than $2.5K.
It's a missed opportunity for Apple. We can debate about the size of it, but its a missed opportunity.
.
that's a bunch of different markets, with different requirements.
ATI and Nvidia make the far bulk of their money from their consumer GPU's. The gaming GPU's are mostly bragging rights.
I think you're talking revenue, not profits. \
Quote:
You said gamers not people who design and code games. People who design games would need an expensive computer for their work.
People who design and codes (and test) games ARE gamers, by and large, and would be insulted if you said otherwise to them. \ And not only they but the folks who play games tend to like higher-end systems.
I mean, you DO know about computer gaming, right? The need to play Quake 4 at an insanely high framerate leading you to shell out for a good computer and a high-end vid card, right? These people DO have money to spend, just don't make it mandatory that they shell out $2.5K to get their foot in the door.
Quote:
What makes the difference is that media professionals actually make money that can pay for computers and software. If Appleinsider Forums is any indication. Gamers are people who whine that Apple does not put $500 graphic cards in $1000 computers because they cannot afford a $2500 computer.
That statement shows a profound ignorance of gamers and their needs. And technically, doesn't even make any sense, as all a gamer would need is a SLOT on your $1K computer... THEY'LL add the $500 vid card.
And y'know, that kind of arrogance really isn't helpful, and has hurt Apple in the past, as when they, for a time, intentionally stiff-armed gamers, in an effort for the Mac to not be seen as a 'toy'. Just one of many bad decisions made during Apple's 'time adrift' pre-Jobs II.
There actually was a time, in the '80s, when the Mac was a GREAT place for games, much better than the PC.
There actually was a time, in the '80s, when the Mac was a GREAT place for games, much better than the PC.
Ah, yes, the Mac SE. Such a great expandable machine.
Oh wait.
Sorry, but expandable machine have always, always been the exception on the Mac platform. Aside from the Performa / Power Mac 6x00 series, virtually all Macs with expansion slots were high-end, not consumer.
Ah, yes, the Mac SE. Such a great expandable machine.
Oh wait.
Sorry, but expandable machine have always, always been the exception on the Mac platform. Aside from the Performa / Power Mac 6x00 series, virtually all Macs with expansion slots were high-end, not consumer.
Yah, and we saw where that strategy got 'em, right? Another bad decision that dragged down the platform, sad to say.
Does the world really need yet one more reason not to buy a Mac?
Oh, and regarding the Mac SE- you do know that 3D gaming cards didn't really become widely available 'till the mid '90s, right? The Mac SE was intro'd in 1987.
Oh the mini-tower debate is on again... my favorite topic.
How many of you have actually worked in a store attempting to sell Macs to average people? I count 3.5 years of my past in that mostly thankless and unrewarding role.
A mini-tower would not be a huge seller to the uninformed masses, but would strongly appeal to those with knowledge and experience. Good reasons:
1) Displays last much longer than the computers attached to them. Why be forced to buy an all-in-one when all you need is a new computer? Lots of dead iMac owners have asked me if they can use the display with a new computer.
2) Many prospective iMac buyers want to use the large display with a MacBook or other notebook computer. Their enthusiasm drops significantly when they learn the iMac doesn't allow video in.
3) Smart customers understand that 4 RAM slots are much better than 2.
4) Smart customers understand that 2 internal HDs make automated backups (like a certain feature soon to arrive in Leopard) faster and easier than using an external drive. External drives also clutter up space and cost far more.
5) Apple would gain more customers than you think. The market for used towers is huge because it matches flexibility with price in a way Apple doesn't. That's a significant number of Mac users who never buy a computer from Apple, dedicated Mac users who don't need a penny of marketing money to be convinced to buy Mac, but for whom Apple offers nothing. Talk about lost opportunity.
Oh the mini-tower debate is on again... my favorite topic.
How many of you have actually worked in a store attempting to sell Macs to average people? I count 3.5 years of my past in that mostly thankless and unrewarding role.
A mini-tower would not be a huge seller to the uninformed masses, but would strongly appeal to those with knowledge and experience. Good reasons:
1) Displays last much longer than the computers attached to them. Why be forced to buy an all-in-one when all you need is a new computer? Lots of dead iMac owners have asked me if they can use the display with a new computer.
2) Many prospective iMac buyers want to use the large display with a MacBook or other notebook computer. Their enthusiasm drops significantly when they learn the iMac doesn't allow video in.
3) Smart customers understand that 4 RAM slots are much better than 2.
4) Smart customers understand that 2 internal HDs make automated backups (like a certain feature soon to arrive in Leopard) faster and easier than using an external drive. External drives also clutter up space and cost far more.
5) Apple would gain more customers than you think. The market for used towers is huge because it matches flexibility with price in a way Apple doesn't. That's a significant number of Mac users who never buy a computer from Apple, dedicated Mac users who don't need a penny of marketing money to be convinced to buy Mac, but for whom Apple offers nothing. Talk about lost opportunity.
All great points. I almost forgot about how nice it is to CHOOSE your display too, and how the cpu becomes obsolete well before the display wears out.
Doesn't a lot of the PC-Mac Gaming issue depend on DirectX?
Also, the $5k Alienware dude is an anomaly. Most of the gamers I know are people who build their own sh$t off of NewEgg. They don't buy quad-core Pro machines for serious work. Apple doesn't need those guys who shave pennies and shouldn't attempt to target them.
-Cool, hotrod a Honda if you want, but don't claim to be a Porsche driver.
Doesn't a lot of the PC-Mac Gaming issue depend on DirectX?
Also, the $5k Alienware dude is an anomaly. Most of the gamers I know are people who build their own sh$t off of NewEgg. They don't buy quad-core Pro machines for serious work. Apple doesn't need those guys who shave pennies and shouldn't attempt to target them.
-Cool, hotrod a Honda if you want, but don't claim to be a Porsche driver.
Alienware sells gaming systems for as low as $1299 (and yes, as high as $5K+). SOMEONE's buying them instead of building their own. *shrug*
That depends on if they sell the consumer GPU near the same it cost to make them.
C'mon Teno, no need to split hairs. Everyone knows that high-end products, in most any industry, have much higher margins (and profits) than low-end ones. Ask your local BMW or TempurPedic dealer if ya don't believe me.
Quote:
(Re: time for a killshot) This isn't very likely nor is it necessary. Let Dell and MS deal with the headache of the general low end market.
No one's asking Apple to try for the eMachines segment. $999 is an AVERAGE laptop selling price these days. Apple going there (or even a bit below) is catering to the MIDRANGE market, not the slums. Yeesh.
*imagines Teno pulling up next to him at a light, rolling down a window, and asking TBaggins if he has any Grey Poupon*
We get paid a fraction of video and sound pros. $2500 is a week or two's work and a Mac is worth much more than that in saved time later. I would suggest your pros aren't very ro.
They make do with what they can afford, like ANY pro... better that they can get in the game than not play at all.
Doesn't change the fact that they would've loved to have gone Mac, but were scared off by the price.
I know people like this. I’m not really stuck on formal titles but I wouldn’t call them pros. They are people that generally have full time jobs and dream of being filmmakers on the weekends.
They don’t buy Mac’s and don’t buy PC’s either. They’ve cobbled together DIY boxes that don’t work properly half the time and don’t work at all the other half. They spend a great deal of time troubleshooting, rebooting, reloading, and switching faulty components.
Everyone I know who is a well paid professional does not have time or the risk to loosing work from dealing with any of that. They generally own a Mac a few people own a comparably expensive PC.
I knew a guy like this a few years ago. He had a DIY box with two Pentium 4’s. He swore the machine was faster than the fastest G5 and did not cost nearly as much. The box had about 6 fans keeping it cool but would shut down from getting too hot. One time he actually got an editing job with a deadline. The computer kept shutting down so he opened the sides of the box up and had a house fan blowing right into the motherboard. It still shut down. He borrowed a Mac from a friend to finish the editing job by his deadline. After that he bought a new G5 and had no more overheating problems.
I was recently showing Dashboard to anther guy with a DIY box. I have the iStat Pro widget. It read that my PowerBook has not been shut down in 7 days. He was amazed and said his computer would throw act up if its on for longer than a day.
I recently had to help someone with a video project. His DIY desktop only had a four pin Firewire port and not a six pin. So he could not plug the DV camera into his desktop. I plugged it into my PowerBook and using iMovie converted the video into Quicktime DV files and burned them to DVD. When he put the DVD into his optical drive the DV files played in slow motion. There was some problem with his system buffering the video file. He ended up hiring an editor who edited his project on a Mac.
I know a small time graphic artists who runs Vista preview on his laptop. Vista crashed creating a reboot file. The problem he needs Windows to reboot the file but Windows is in the file. So he had no way to reboot. He had to take the laptop into a shop to return everything to normal.
C'mon Teno, no need to split hairs. Everyone knows that high-end products, in most any industry, have much higher margins (and profits) than low-end ones. Ask your local BMW or TempurPedic dealer if ya don't believe me.
No one's asking Apple to try for the eMachines segment. $999 is an AVERAGE laptop selling price these days. Apple going there (or even a bit below) is catering to the MIDRANGE market, not the slums. Yeesh.
*imagines Teno pulling up next to him at a light, rolling down a window, and asking TBaggins if he has any Grey Poupon*
.
No one is making any profits on their low end laptop sales. They are loss leaders that companies use to convince potential customers to upgrade from, once they walk into the store.
The problem for them is that too many customers are not.
Comments
I would not put gaming in the same category as professional industries. Gaming is not a job.
Generally people who are in video, sound, photography as a business that makes money are willing to pay money for the best gear. They don't shop for bargains.
PLEASE! You don't know gamers if you think they go for the best bargain. I know PLENTY of people who just blindly spend the cash to get the highest maxed out computer they can without ever thinking twice about the price. A friend of mine bought a top of the line Alienware laptop for around 5 grand and without even looking at what he was upgrading he maxed out every single option. The thing is as thick as those lord of the rings extended edition boxes and generates enough heat to sweat out me and a few other people while he was playing WoW, not to mention the day it arrived the graphics card was broke (same thing happened to my friend who got a desktop from IBUYPOWER). Plus most gamers think of it this way: Its a life purchase. They are going to use it everyday. They want the best. They might as well pay the same amount on something thats as important to them as a car (used car but you get the picture)
Oh. You mean like gamers, video guys, sound guys, etc.?
Hate to break it to ya, but that's definitely more than 1% of the market. Or it could be, for Apple, if only they offered a product for them that was less than $2.5K.
It's a missed opportunity for Apple. We can debate about the size of it, but its a missed opportunity.
.
that's a bunch of different markets, with different requirements.
They are all fairly small.
ATI and Nvidia make the far bulk of their money from their consumer GPU's. The gaming GPU's are mostly bragging rights.
I think you're talking revenue, not profits.
You said gamers not people who design and code games. People who design games would need an expensive computer for their work.
People who design and codes (and test) games ARE gamers, by and large, and would be insulted if you said otherwise to them.
I mean, you DO know about computer gaming, right? The need to play Quake 4 at an insanely high framerate leading you to shell out for a good computer and a high-end vid card, right? These people DO have money to spend, just don't make it mandatory that they shell out $2.5K to get their foot in the door.
What makes the difference is that media professionals actually make money that can pay for computers and software. If Appleinsider Forums is any indication. Gamers are people who whine that Apple does not put $500 graphic cards in $1000 computers because they cannot afford a $2500 computer.
That statement shows a profound ignorance of gamers and their needs. And technically, doesn't even make any sense, as all a gamer would need is a SLOT on your $1K computer... THEY'LL add the $500 vid card.
And y'know, that kind of arrogance really isn't helpful, and has hurt Apple in the past, as when they, for a time, intentionally stiff-armed gamers, in an effort for the Mac to not be seen as a 'toy'. Just one of many bad decisions made during Apple's 'time adrift' pre-Jobs II.
There actually was a time, in the '80s, when the Mac was a GREAT place for games, much better than the PC.
.
There actually was a time, in the '80s, when the Mac was a GREAT place for games, much better than the PC.
Ah, yes, the Mac SE. Such a great expandable machine.
Oh wait.
Sorry, but expandable machine have always, always been the exception on the Mac platform. Aside from the Performa / Power Mac 6x00 series, virtually all Macs with expansion slots were high-end, not consumer.
While it doesn't seem to be much more, it's 3% of the world market. That's 50% greater.
From these increases, we will see US marketshare up as well, possibly at 5%.
That's good, I agree, but even with those increases, Apple is still a gnat dancing in the PC market as it were.
Time to aim a killshot at Microsoft and Dell's head while the shooting is good. 8)
.
Ah, yes, the Mac SE. Such a great expandable machine.
Oh wait.
Sorry, but expandable machine have always, always been the exception on the Mac platform. Aside from the Performa / Power Mac 6x00 series, virtually all Macs with expansion slots were high-end, not consumer.
Yah, and we saw where that strategy got 'em, right? Another bad decision that dragged down the platform, sad to say.
Does the world really need yet one more reason not to buy a Mac?
Oh, and regarding the Mac SE- you do know that 3D gaming cards didn't really become widely available 'till the mid '90s, right? The Mac SE was intro'd in 1987.
.
Agreed. A minimum $2500 entry fee to get a truly expandable desktop Mac is a tad ridiculous. And no doubt it is keeping some folks from switching.
Jesus H, is a resonably priced mini-tower too much to ask?
Yeah, it'd cannibalize sales of other desktops some, but it'd also bring in new buyers and increase Apple's marketshare.
.
And what configuration would you recommend and at what price should Apple sell it for?
How many of you have actually worked in a store attempting to sell Macs to average people? I count 3.5 years of my past in that mostly thankless and unrewarding role.
A mini-tower would not be a huge seller to the uninformed masses, but would strongly appeal to those with knowledge and experience. Good reasons:
1) Displays last much longer than the computers attached to them. Why be forced to buy an all-in-one when all you need is a new computer? Lots of dead iMac owners have asked me if they can use the display with a new computer.
2) Many prospective iMac buyers want to use the large display with a MacBook or other notebook computer. Their enthusiasm drops significantly when they learn the iMac doesn't allow video in.
3) Smart customers understand that 4 RAM slots are much better than 2.
4) Smart customers understand that 2 internal HDs make automated backups (like a certain feature soon to arrive in Leopard) faster and easier than using an external drive. External drives also clutter up space and cost far more.
5) Apple would gain more customers than you think. The market for used towers is huge because it matches flexibility with price in a way Apple doesn't. That's a significant number of Mac users who never buy a computer from Apple, dedicated Mac users who don't need a penny of marketing money to be convinced to buy Mac, but for whom Apple offers nothing. Talk about lost opportunity.
Oh the mini-tower debate is on again... my favorite topic.
How many of you have actually worked in a store attempting to sell Macs to average people? I count 3.5 years of my past in that mostly thankless and unrewarding role.
A mini-tower would not be a huge seller to the uninformed masses, but would strongly appeal to those with knowledge and experience. Good reasons:
1) Displays last much longer than the computers attached to them. Why be forced to buy an all-in-one when all you need is a new computer? Lots of dead iMac owners have asked me if they can use the display with a new computer.
2) Many prospective iMac buyers want to use the large display with a MacBook or other notebook computer. Their enthusiasm drops significantly when they learn the iMac doesn't allow video in.
3) Smart customers understand that 4 RAM slots are much better than 2.
4) Smart customers understand that 2 internal HDs make automated backups (like a certain feature soon to arrive in Leopard) faster and easier than using an external drive. External drives also clutter up space and cost far more.
5) Apple would gain more customers than you think. The market for used towers is huge because it matches flexibility with price in a way Apple doesn't. That's a significant number of Mac users who never buy a computer from Apple, dedicated Mac users who don't need a penny of marketing money to be convinced to buy Mac, but for whom Apple offers nothing. Talk about lost opportunity.
All great points. I almost forgot about how nice it is to CHOOSE your display too, and how the cpu becomes obsolete well before the display wears out.
Damn. Now I really want a Mac minitower. Gimme!
.
Also, the $5k Alienware dude is an anomaly. Most of the gamers I know are people who build their own sh$t off of NewEgg. They don't buy quad-core Pro machines for serious work. Apple doesn't need those guys who shave pennies and shouldn't attempt to target them.
-Cool, hotrod a Honda if you want, but don't claim to be a Porsche driver.
Doesn't a lot of the PC-Mac Gaming issue depend on DirectX?
Also, the $5k Alienware dude is an anomaly. Most of the gamers I know are people who build their own sh$t off of NewEgg. They don't buy quad-core Pro machines for serious work. Apple doesn't need those guys who shave pennies and shouldn't attempt to target them.
-Cool, hotrod a Honda if you want, but don't claim to be a Porsche driver.
Alienware sells gaming systems for as low as $1299 (and yes, as high as $5K+). SOMEONE's buying them instead of building their own. *shrug*
(PS- Love your name. NewsRadio rules.)
.
ATI and Nvidia make the far bulk of their money from their consumer GPU's. The gaming GPU's are mostly bragging rights.
I think you're talking revenue, not profits
That depends on if they sell the consumer GPU near the same it cost to make them.
While it doesn't seem to be much more, it's 3% of the world market. That's 50% greater.
That 1% gain from a part of the market that will to buy a $1200 computer in the long run is worth more value than a 2% gain in the sub-$1000 market.
Time to aim a killshot at Microsoft and Dell's head while the shooting is good
This isn't very likely nor is it necessary. Let Dell and MS deal with the headache of the general low end market.
That depends on if they sell the consumer GPU near the same it cost to make them.
C'mon Teno, no need to split hairs. Everyone knows that high-end products, in most any industry, have much higher margins (and profits) than low-end ones. Ask your local BMW or TempurPedic dealer if ya don't believe me.
(Re: time for a killshot) This isn't very likely nor is it necessary. Let Dell and MS deal with the headache of the general low end market.
No one's asking Apple to try for the eMachines segment. $999 is an AVERAGE laptop selling price these days. Apple going there (or even a bit below) is catering to the MIDRANGE market, not the slums. Yeesh.
*imagines Teno pulling up next to him at a light, rolling down a window, and asking TBaggins if he has any Grey Poupon*
.
.
*imagines Teno pulling up next to him at a light, rolling down a window, and asking TBaggins if he has any Grey Poupon*
LOL, that's really funny.
Everyone knows that high-end products, in most any industry, have much higher margins (and profits) than low-end ones.
Yes but that doesn't automatically mean every company makes most of its profit from its higher end products.
We get paid a fraction of video and sound pros. $2500 is a week or two's work and a Mac is worth much more than that in saved time later. I would suggest your pros aren't very ro.
They make do with what they can afford, like ANY pro... better that they can get in the game than not play at all.
Doesn't change the fact that they would've loved to have gone Mac, but were scared off by the price.
I know people like this. I’m not really stuck on formal titles but I wouldn’t call them pros. They are people that generally have full time jobs and dream of being filmmakers on the weekends.
They don’t buy Mac’s and don’t buy PC’s either. They’ve cobbled together DIY boxes that don’t work properly half the time and don’t work at all the other half. They spend a great deal of time troubleshooting, rebooting, reloading, and switching faulty components.
Everyone I know who is a well paid professional does not have time or the risk to loosing work from dealing with any of that. They generally own a Mac a few people own a comparably expensive PC.
I knew a guy like this a few years ago. He had a DIY box with two Pentium 4’s. He swore the machine was faster than the fastest G5 and did not cost nearly as much. The box had about 6 fans keeping it cool but would shut down from getting too hot. One time he actually got an editing job with a deadline. The computer kept shutting down so he opened the sides of the box up and had a house fan blowing right into the motherboard. It still shut down. He borrowed a Mac from a friend to finish the editing job by his deadline. After that he bought a new G5 and had no more overheating problems.
I was recently showing Dashboard to anther guy with a DIY box. I have the iStat Pro widget. It read that my PowerBook has not been shut down in 7 days. He was amazed and said his computer would throw act up if its on for longer than a day.
I recently had to help someone with a video project. His DIY desktop only had a four pin Firewire port and not a six pin. So he could not plug the DV camera into his desktop. I plugged it into my PowerBook and using iMovie converted the video into Quicktime DV files and burned them to DVD. When he put the DVD into his optical drive the DV files played in slow motion. There was some problem with his system buffering the video file. He ended up hiring an editor who edited his project on a Mac.
I know a small time graphic artists who runs Vista preview on his laptop. Vista crashed creating a reboot file. The problem he needs Windows to reboot the file but Windows is in the file. So he had no way to reboot. He had to take the laptop into a shop to return everything to normal.
"Apple sells 1.6 million Macs, nearly 1 million notebooks"
You'd think they were doomed, not that they'd sold more Macs than they'd ever sold.
Alienware sells gaming systems for as low as $1299 (and yes, as high as $5K+). SOMEONE's buying them instead of building their own. *shrug*
(PS- Love your name. NewsRadio rules.)
.
Go look up just how many gaming machines Alienware sold last year.
Sales were a bit over $150 million in 2005.
That includes everything. Laptops, servers, low end, high end, peripherals, services.
If Apple had sold all of the gaming machines Alien made, it would be a small, a very small, blip.
That's good, I agree, but even with those increases, Apple is still a gnat dancing in the PC market as it were.
Time to aim a killshot at Microsoft and Dell's head while the shooting is good. 8)
.
Even their gnat sized destop sales outsell gaming machines by ten to one.
C'mon Teno, no need to split hairs. Everyone knows that high-end products, in most any industry, have much higher margins (and profits) than low-end ones. Ask your local BMW or TempurPedic dealer if ya don't believe me.
No one's asking Apple to try for the eMachines segment. $999 is an AVERAGE laptop selling price these days. Apple going there (or even a bit below) is catering to the MIDRANGE market, not the slums. Yeesh.
*imagines Teno pulling up next to him at a light, rolling down a window, and asking TBaggins if he has any Grey Poupon*
.
No one is making any profits on their low end laptop sales. They are loss leaders that companies use to convince potential customers to upgrade from, once they walk into the store.
The problem for them is that too many customers are not.