danvm

Beats said:

I wish people would jump onto Apples office services instead. MS' subscription crap is terrible. Hope this news is true as I might need excel for work (unfortunately).

ITGUYINSD said:

$100/yr for 6 users gets you fully updated version of all the Office apps plus 1TB of OneDrive cloud storage PER USER.  To get the same iCloud storage would cost as much as this entire Office Suite!

So, $17/user per year, how many years until you've spent as much as a perpetual SINGLE USER license?  10 or 15 years?  

But people say Office365 isn't a good deal.  If you have multiple computers, family members, friends, etc., can share the cost, it definitely makes sense to spend $17/yr for the apps plus 1TB cloud storage.  

Office365 is the deal of the century compared to Adobe's subscriptions and pricing.

People would jump in Apple office services if they were better than what MS offers, specially for business where MS ecosystem is far ahead from what Apple have.  

What if you're a single user? That's where the problem begins. What if you only need excel for a month and a half? That's $99/year per user and I don't want to use Microsofts cloud service. I don't trust them.

Apple's programs are free. Much better deal.

There is plan for single users, $70 per year.  And even you can subscribe with monthly plans, that would be cheap for the month and a half example you gave.  IMO, not that bad either, considering it includes 1TB of OneDrive storage.

22july2013 said:

danvm said:

The answer you gave is out of context.  You mentioned that you don't want two separate systems for games, but that's what we see with movie / TV and music services, and it doesn't breaks any of the iOS experience, neither creates any complexity.  From the iOS POV, why would it be different with xCloud, considering xCloud in iOS worked very similar to Netflix and Spotify?

I suppose Input is not relevant, considering there is no mention of this as a criteria in the App Store Guidelines.  

Input is not relevant? You obviously haven't read the requirements. On section begins with "Data collected..." I think we've hit an impasse because your answers are completely wrong, and I've lost interest in trying to point things out to you like the App Store Guidelines. And the fact that movies and music are on separate parts of the OS doesn't prove anything. Sorry, even my patience has now run out. At least I got you to agree that Apple can set up whatever rules it wants, and that was progress, so my time wasn't wasted. I'm closing my window now so I won't see further replies.

I miss understood you point about "Input".  I thought about input devices to play games or interact with an app.  If you are talking about data collection, I suppose is a genuine point.  But I haven't seen any evidence that it would have been an issue with xCloud.  Have you?

 And the fact that movies and music are on separate parts of the OS doesn't prove anything. Sorry, even my patience has now run out. At least I got you to agree that Apple can set up whatever rules it wants, and that was progress, so my time wasn't wasted. I'm closing my window now so I won't see further replies.

It proves that separate apps for TV / movies and music apps won't break the iOS experience neither makes it more complicated, as you said xCloud do.  BTW, your comments about xCloud breaking the iOS experience, complicating things or collecting data from users are based in your own experience using the app while it was in TestFlight?

22july2013 said:

danvm said:

22july2013 said:

danvm said:

KTR said:

headfull0wine said:

"This remains a bad experience for customers..."  Ok Microsoft, I see what you did there.  You're speaking Apple-ese.  Smart. 

As much as I am a fan of Apple's ecosystem and 'walled garden', I struggle to see the risk of streaming game platforms.  I'm not much of a gamer, but I would rather have one app that can stream tons of games, than have to download each game one by one and delete them to make room for more.  Am I getting the two models right?

I heard xCloud get compared to Netflix like this: They are both zero footprint downward streams with upward controls.  The play/pause/skip function is just replaced by left/right/jump/shoot etc.  I honestly think Apple isn't allowing it simply because they can't figure out a way to monetize it. 

I kinda see Apple's point.  If you have one app that streams multiple games, what if one of those games contains malicious code.  Like Tim Cook one said to Trump camp.  It only takes one bad actor to compromise the ecosystem/ios.  So, I can see it from apples point of view.  They want to maintain the quality of the system.  And keeping it safe.

From what I know (since Apple won't allow xCloud in my iPhone), the only thing you need to download is the xCloud App.  The games are streamed to the device, and there is no need to download code.  If that's the case, there is no need to worry about malicious code, as you said.  

You weren't asking me, but I want to ask you for clarification. How do you know that the xCloud app complies with all 500 requirements in Apple's license? Are you personally promising that Microsoft will not violate any of those terms? For example, like payment systems. Have you read the requirements? I spent ten minutes reading all of them. I predict that given the chance Microsoft would violate about half of them in their xCloud app. Are you trying to give Microsoft an exemption to all 500 requirements? 

I have no issues with people asking or giving opinions from my comments, so feel free to post.  On your questions, I'm sure that xCloud / Stadia don't comply with Apple rules, considering is not available for us, Apple customers.  And I'm not trying to give MS an exemption.  But when you see the whole picture, Apple are blocking innovation in the gaming market for us, Apple customers.  MS and Google are investing a lot in their cloud platforms to make cloud gaming a good experience.  It is perfect?  Not at all, but neither was Netflix in the beginning.  Now Apple said that allows game streaming services, but their rules break the xCloud experience (at least from the MS POV).  And considering and comparing Apple and MS gaming experiences, maybe they are right.  

Are you saying that Apple has no right to provide a curated software experience for its users? Are you trying to take away my freedom to choose a curated service? Please say yes or no.

Yes, Apple has the right to provide a curated software experience. Now I ask you, what kind of curated experience you are talking about?  If it's for content, xCloud (I'm not sure for Stadia) have their games rated by PEGI and ESRB, and as today, I'm not seeing games with AO rating.  Is suppose that's good enough considering Apple don't check TV shows and movies in Netflix, Hulu, HBO Now or Amazon Prime.  Now I ask you, do you feel that your freedom was took away because Apple is not checking every movie or TV show from the apps I mentioned?

If you are talking about curated software experience for the app / code review, from what I have read, there are no games downloaded to the device.  They are running in the XBox consoles in MS datacenters, and streamed to the device.  I think that's very similar that what the Citrix and MS Remote Desktop apps do.  

Well, we are getting a lot closer to an agreement. One of your concerns was "Apple is blocking innovation." But I don't think that's illegal and I don't think you are saying that should be illegal. So we may be close to agreeing. Apple is perfectly within its legal right to stifle innovation. In this case that stifling is the very thing that's making me attracted to Apple's iOS.

I have not idea why you bring the legal thing into this conversation, considering MS haven't break any Apple or legal rules.  This is a completely different matter from Epic and Fortnite.   

You also express concerns that Apple is "breaking the xCloud experience." I agree with you that's exactly what they are doing. But again, this can't possibly be illegal. Apple has every legal right to object to block anyone's app for any reason. And in this case the reasons involve more than just whether an app is "downloaded" or not. Have you read the 500 requirements? Are you saying that Microsoft and the games on its service will never violate the in app purchase requirements, for example? It's unclear whether MS will adhere to all the rules, and nobody on the anti-Apple side is answering simple questions like this.

Like I posted before, the legal points you mention are not relevant, since MS haven't break any rule or law, removed xCloud from TestFlight, and didn't force any issues as Epic did. 

Now, answering your question if MS ( or Google) will adhere to all rules, my answer as an Apple customer (since I'm not against, neither pro Apple), is that I don't know.  If Apple won't allow anyone break the iOS experience, why would MS allow Apple break their xCloud gaming experience?  And considering gaming experience, I trust MS far more than Apple.  So what Apple is doing with the new rules, may give us, iOS customers a worst experience than what MS and Google had planned.  I suppose that rules weren't suppose to do that, but here we are.

You then ask me, "do you feel that your freedom was took away because Apple is not checking every movie or TV show from the apps I mentioned?" The answer is I actually WANT Apple to "take away my freedom" and make my experience easy to use, simple, protected from threats, and made consistent with the environment that Apple has made easy for me to learn and use. And you want to take away my freedom to purchase products that have these values.

Did you have proof that xCloud or Stadia takes away your freedom or breaks any of the things you mentioned from the iOS / iPadOS experience?  From what I know Apple didn't reject xCloud for any of the reasons you mentioned.  

I don't understand why people want to take away my freedom and then at the same time arguing it's for THEIR freedom. You already have your freedom - you have XBOX, Android, and a half dozen other gaming systems and you still want to take away the one system that does what I want. Why does every vendor have to be forced to do the things that you want? Why?

And I don't understand why you feel that your freedom will go away if xCloud were in Apple mobile devices.  Yes, I have to option to move to Android or Xbox consoles.  But you have the option to not download xCloud, and you'll still have the same experience as you had before, since xCloud didn't break the iOS experience (at least when it as in TestFlight).  There are cases that we see good services, as xCloud and Stadia, that could improve the iOS / iPadOS experience you already enjoy.  

22july2013 said:

danvm said:

KTR said:

headfull0wine said:

"This remains a bad experience for customers..."  Ok Microsoft, I see what you did there.  You're speaking Apple-ese.  Smart. 

As much as I am a fan of Apple's ecosystem and 'walled garden', I struggle to see the risk of streaming game platforms.  I'm not much of a gamer, but I would rather have one app that can stream tons of games, than have to download each game one by one and delete them to make room for more.  Am I getting the two models right?

I heard xCloud get compared to Netflix like this: They are both zero footprint downward streams with upward controls.  The play/pause/skip function is just replaced by left/right/jump/shoot etc.  I honestly think Apple isn't allowing it simply because they can't figure out a way to monetize it. 

I kinda see Apple's point.  If you have one app that streams multiple games, what if one of those games contains malicious code.  Like Tim Cook one said to Trump camp.  It only takes one bad actor to compromise the ecosystem/ios.  So, I can see it from apples point of view.  They want to maintain the quality of the system.  And keeping it safe.

From what I know (since Apple won't allow xCloud in my iPhone), the only thing you need to download is the xCloud App.  The games are streamed to the device, and there is no need to download code.  If that's the case, there is no need to worry about malicious code, as you said.  

You weren't asking me, but I want to ask you for clarification. How do you know that the xCloud app complies with all 500 requirements in Apple's license? Are you personally promising that Microsoft will not violate any of those terms? For example, like payment systems. Have you read the requirements? I spent ten minutes reading all of them. I predict that given the chance Microsoft would violate about half of them in their xCloud app. Are you trying to give Microsoft an exemption to all 500 requirements? 

I have no issues with people asking or giving opinions from my comments, so feel free to post.  On your questions, I'm sure that xCloud / Stadia don't comply with Apple rules, considering is not available for us, Apple customers.  And I'm not trying to give MS an exemption.  But when you see the whole picture, Apple are blocking innovation in the gaming market for us, Apple customers.  MS and Google are investing a lot in their cloud platforms to make cloud gaming a good experience.  It is perfect?  Not at all, but neither was Netflix in the beginning.  Now Apple said that allows game streaming services, but their rules break the xCloud experience (at least from the MS POV).  And considering and comparing Apple and MS gaming experiences, maybe they are right.  

Are you saying that Apple has no right to provide a curated software experience for its users? Are you trying to take away my freedom to choose a curated service? Please say yes or no.

Yes, Apple has the right to provide a curated software experience. Now I ask you, what kind of curated experience you are talking about?  If it's for content, xCloud (I'm not sure for Stadia) have their games rated by PEGI and ESRB, and as today, I'm not seeing games with AO rating.  Is suppose that's good enough considering Apple don't check TV shows and movies in Netflix, Hulu, HBO Now or Amazon Prime.  Now I ask you, do you feel that your freedom was took away because Apple is not checking every movie or TV show from the apps I mentioned?

If you are talking about curated software experience for the app / code review, from what I have read, there are no games downloaded to the device.  They are running in the XBox consoles in MS datacenters, and streamed to the device.  I think that's very similar that what the Citrix and MS Remote Desktop apps do.  

KTR said:

headfull0wine said:

"This remains a bad experience for customers..."  Ok Microsoft, I see what you did there.  You're speaking Apple-ese.  Smart. 

As much as I am a fan of Apple's ecosystem and 'walled garden', I struggle to see the risk of streaming game platforms.  I'm not much of a gamer, but I would rather have one app that can stream tons of games, than have to download each game one by one and delete them to make room for more.  Am I getting the two models right?

I heard xCloud get compared to Netflix like this: They are both zero footprint downward streams with upward controls.  The play/pause/skip function is just replaced by left/right/jump/shoot etc.  I honestly think Apple isn't allowing it simply because they can't figure out a way to monetize it. 

I kinda see Apple's point.  If you have one app that streams multiple games, what if one of those games contains malicious code.  Like Tim Cook one said to Trump camp.  It only takes one bad actor to compromise the ecosystem/ios.  So, I can see it from apples point of view.  They want to maintain the quality of the system.  And keeping it safe.

From what I know (since Apple won't allow xCloud in my iPhone), the only thing you need to download is the xCloud App.  The games are streamed to the device, and there is no need to download code.  If that's the case, there is no need to worry about malicious code, as you said.