waveparticle

sflocal said:

It's such an odd ruling.  I hope Apple still has options to fight this ruling.  It makes zero sense.  It's Apple's hardware, software, and ecosystem.  I don't see how the Dutch can say that Apple is abusing its dominance?  If you the developer want access to Apple's ecosystem (i.e. Customers) that Apple puts in tons of resources into obtaining, and keeping current users loyal, then you the whiny developer has to play by the house rules.

I'm all about Apple playing within the confines of a country's rules.  This one through, I do hope that Apple just shuts/slams the door on them.

tmay said:

waveparticle said:

tmay said:

waveparticle said:

tmay said:

GeorgeBMac said:

tmay said:

Worth a read for those of us in the reality based world...
.....
I guess agreeing with the above make me a China "hater"...

Not that by itself -- but the unending stream of hate and smear tactics does.

In any case, I hope that bullshit helped you feel better about your bullshit.

Yeah, quoting a bunch of academics is always a risky proposition. /s

You might want to peek into the dark side and actually read the entire PDF, but you're afraid of what you might find, just like Waveparticle is unable to deny Xinjiang Region human rights violations.

LOL!

Information is your Lord Valdemort, and you're scared to death that it will turn you inside out.

I don't deny there may be human rights violations according to the mighty US standard. But genocide? Definitely not! 

UN defines genocide more broadly than murdering an ethnic population, and the US follows the UN standard.

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

Definition

Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: 

1. Killing members of the group; 
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; 
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Elements of the crime

The Genocide Convention establishes in Article I that the crime of genocide may take place in the context of an armed conflict, international or non-international, but also in the context of a peaceful situation. The latter is less common but still possible. The same article establishes the obligation of the contracting parties to prevent and to punish the crime of genocide.

The popular understanding of what constitutes genocide tends to be broader than the content of the norm under international law. Article II of the Genocide Convention contains a narrow definition of the crime of genocide, which includes two main elements: 

1. A mental element: the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such"; and 
2. A physical element, which includes the following five acts, enumerated exhaustively:
   • Killing members of the group
   • Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
   • Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
   • Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
   • Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

The intent is the most difficult element to determine. To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group. It is this special intent, or dolus specialis, that makes the crime of genocide so unique. In addition, case law has associated intent with the existence of a State or organizational plan or policy, even if the definition of genocide in international law does not include that element. 

Importantly, the victims of genocide are deliberately targeted - not randomly – because of their real or perceived membership of one of the four groups protected under the Convention (which excludes political groups, for example). This means that the target of destruction must be the group, as such, and not its members as individuals. Genocide can also be committed against only a part of the group, as long as that part is identifiable (including within a geographically limited area) and “substantial.”

You lose this argument.

Which definition is violated? 

At least 2, 3, and 4, according to reliable information, that I have previously posted, and you have previously denied.

GeorgeBMac said:

tmay said:

GeorgeBMac said:

waveparticle said:

avon b7 said:

tmay said:

avon b7 said:

tmay said:

avon b7 said:

foljs said:

mac_d in J7og said:

And turn a blind eye to the atrocities in Palestine. Hypocrisy at its finest. 

BeIt's not about justice or attrocities (as if the US, who has sponsored, done, and still sponsors and does all kinds of attrocities, even downrigh i8t invations and occupations) cared.

It's about the trade war. 

Simply put, DJI does too well, and can get even bigger in the future. They'd rather have an American company get that market...

That is pretty much it.

The US has gone on record numerous times (sometimes unwittingly) as fearing being displaced by China as it sees it as a threat to US technological hegemony and influence.

That China is making huge technological strides and is likely to become a technological powerhouse is a widely accepted scenario.

However, the 'threat' isn't only Chinese. The EU also has a stated goal of becoming technologically independent (or in other words, not reliant on US influence, control, and restrictions).

As with China, those plans were in place long before Trump became president.

All Trump has achieved is to push governments to accelerate those independence plans, worsening the situation for US companies. 

The US is now seen as unreliable and, logically, companies around the world (and governments) resent being 'told' what to do via executive orders issued under the guise of 'national security' simply because their companies (or their products) use a percentage of US technology.

These actions are mainly 'protectionist' in intent but are only serving to harm US technology interests in the long term.

FFS,


Nobody in the West trusts the PRC.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/06/30/chinas-international-image-remains-broadly-negative-as-views-of-the-u-s-rebound/

..."as views of the U.S. rebound...


Perhaps it is China's intellectual property theft that is the basis of its military expansionism that is the issue, and why the West is less willing to cede technological leadership to China. Perhaps it is China's "Wolf Warrior Diplomacy". There are numerous reasons that China is now seen as a threat.

You and you ilk believe that China has peaceful intentions; I do not. There is quite a bit of evidence to the effect that China's militarization is a threat to the West, and the current Rules of Order established at the end of WWII. These rules, for the most part, are the reason that the Global Economy works as well as it does.

Heck, even the EU's position on China is changing to recognize the threat that China poses, and at the same time, is more friendly to Taiwan.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/06/business/the-eu-finally-has-a-china-plan-intl-cmd/index.html

However, the change in public opinion toward China is filtering through to Europe's leadership. Fallon believes that in countries which have historically been in favor of economic partnerships with China like France and Hungary -- which both have elections soon -- political opposition will be able to leverage public hostility.

The danger isn't that there won't be a coherent China strategy, but that a plan gets watered down so much it isn't worth the paper it's written on.

In the case of the Global Gateway, that could be private sector companies not keen to fund huge infrastructure projects that don't make money. On security, it might be that countries in southern Europe enjoy Chinese money and don't geographically see it as a threat. ***that sounds like your country of Spain...

For now, China hawks are happy that Brussels is attempting to stop trampling over its lofty ambitions of promoting democracy, human rights, and free trade, blinded by the Chinese yuan signs in their eyes.

What remains to be seen is whether the EU's own red tape and processes suffocate that ambition, and if once the pandemic begins to recede, Europe returns to its former bad habit of turning a blind eye, even when doing so hurts its own long-term interests.

The tide is turning against China's expansionism, and it isn't soon enough.

What did any of that have to do with what I said?

I'm talking about official statements, not opinion pieces.

William Barr said the US had to do something to stop Huawei and it's dominance in 5G for fear of "surrendering supremecy" to China.

He noted that 5G would form the backbone of countless new technologies and China was already making great strides in developing them.

As the US has nothing of its own to counter that situation, he even suggested the US should consider taking a controlling stake in Ericcson. Another wacky statement seeing as studies suggest that, even under 'sanctions', Huawei in 2021 had business in 5G that is equivalent to that of Ericcson and Nokia combined. Not to mention that the US has continually criticised alleged subsidies to Huawei from government. Huawei itself debunked those claims and it hasn't been brought up since.

The US has also used the terms destroy, kill and choke to refer to its stance on Huawei.

And if you bother to pay attention, even the latest, ehem, 'in depth' investigation on Huawei by Bloomberg, manages to spend much of the latter part of the article blowing holes in its own claims!

There's a lot of clutching at straws going on and desperate moves, but the CEO of ASML made things clear. The US approach will fail.

I have stated many times, that telecom is critical infrastructure, a National Security issue, and had been a concern of the U.S since the Obama
Administration. That Huawei is notably working directly with the PRC to provide surveillance of minorities was found much later.

Evidently, people don't believe Huawei nor the PRC, and have made demands on their governments to mitigate that my restricting or outright banning Huawei infrastructure. Now that Merkel is out, I expect Germany to be much tougher on China as well. 

As for ASML, the U.S. continues to deny a license to sell leading edge devices to China;

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4475198-what-additional-us-sanctions-on-china-mean-for-asml

I’ve written several Seeking Alpha articles about China’s equipment industry which, after a decade of attempts, have less than a 5% share of the overall equipment market, according to The Information Network's report entitled "Global Semiconductor Equipment: Markets, Market Share, Market Forecasts." So this means that Taiwan will need to buy equipment from Japan, equipment from Mainland China, or build their own. But recall that in mid-2019, Japan embargoed semiconductor materials to Taiwan, particularly e-beam photoresist. I discussed this in a July 15, 2019 Seeking Alpha article entitled “Sorry, But Japan's Material Embargo Won't Help Micron Technology.”

The overreach of the sanctions by the U.S. government, started by President Trump, have been expanded under President Biden. But like it or not, the U.S. spends a lot of money protecting countries like Korea and Japan. Currently, there are approximately 55,000 U.S. troops in Japan and 26,500 U.S. troops in South Korea.

In 2019, the U.S. and South Korea negotiated an agreement calling for South Korea to contribute approximately $893 million. Japan’s current support amounts to approximately $1.7 billion. By comparison, the Department of Defense currently estimates the total cost of maintaining the U.S. presence in South Korea and Japan at $4.5 billion and $5.7 billion, respectively.

And if sanctions and blacklists function as another strategy in protecting foreign countries, so be it. As China continues to advance militarily and technologically, these sanctions will only be broader based. This will only put sales of DUV lithography systems further in jeopardy and negatively impact ASML.

Erm, I can only imagine that you are being wilfully obtuse.

Yes. Huawei works directly with the Chinese government. It is an infrastructure supplier!

Huawei works directly with all its customers. Does that surprise you?

'The US is protecting so and so'. You mean like it protected Afghanistan and Iraq?

Nope! The US has strategic interests. That's it. When those strategic interests change, so so does the 'protection' mantra.

Let me say it straight. ASML is a business that wants to sell equipment to China. It is not happy that an external sovereign state is meddling in its ability to trade and it's CEO has spoken out on the subject many times.

He knows that this external limitation will lead to China creating homegrown competitors to his business interests.

You stepped around the facts with yet more opinion pieces and simply roll on with your anti China rhetoric.

The US doesn't want DJI to prosper, just like it didn't want Huawei to prosper.

Going about it the way they have, will not change anything. On the contrary, it will speed up the demise of US technological interests.

His line of thoughts are based on the right wing anti-China ideology. Their premise is China is US adversary. US doing similar things it is ok because it is us. China doing similar thins is not ok because China is an adversary thus a threat. Trump administration used four years to portray China as an adversary. US-China relation is in a downward trend because of this premise. Biden is unwilling or unable to change this sentiment. His hands are tied by this premise. Worse of all, China under Xi has decided to respond directly toward the attacks originated by this premise. 

You are correct about his right wing/Trumpian approach:    Anybody who stands in the way of their agenda is considered a "bad guy" to be destroyed by whatever means necessary and available.

As George Bush famously (or infamously?) said:  "You're either for me Or you're agin' me".

There is no nuance or shades of grey in that world.  Pure black & white, good vs bad.

I shouldn't have to reiterate this, but China's human rights violations are concerning to Liberals, Progressives, Conservatives and Trumpists, hence why polls throughout the Western world are so negative on the PRC. 

You can attempt to distract from that fact, but the trend is even more negative for the PRC due to militarization that China is engaged in.

Trump started the whole thing in order to attack China -- because that's what he does with any and all who compete against him.   Because some fools jumped on that band wagon and continue riding it down the hill doesn't change that it was and is nothing more than a standard Trumpian smear campaign.

Liberals and progressives tend to be better educated than the typical Trump Deplorable.  One would think they would be more concerned about real atrocities and human rights violations being committed in and by this country rather than perpetuating a smear campaign based on half truths against a country half way around the world.

What is really keeping this farce going is same thing that killed 600,000 Iraqis:  The "Freedom and Democracy" mantra -- otherwise known as "Cold War #2".    Ideology running out of control kills.  Aside from the moral depravity of it, we simply can't afford it:  our infrastructure is badly out of date and crumbling and we are running massive deficits since our invasion of Iraq -- none of which is anybody's fault but ours.  We simply cannot afford to start anymore wars.

tmay said:

GeorgeBMac said:

tmay said:

waveparticle said:

tmay said:

avon b7 said:

tmay said:

avon b7 said:

It's definitely a wavky move and doesn't make a lot of sense. But then again, there is little sense on the entity list.

US drones have been used in sovereign states for what basically amounts to summary executions. Have

Drones that were designed to kill. Other drones are designed for reconnaissance.

DJI also makes drones. Even if it wanted to, I doubt they could stop them from being used for  certain purposes.

But these look like mere allegations. Not even hard evidence. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/12/14/huawei-surveillance-china/

https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/14/22834860/huawei-leaked-documents-xinjiang-region-uyghur-facial-recognition-prisons-surveillance

Hard evidence...

That's hard nonsense! And has nothing to do with DJI!

Advanced Facial recognition can be used to identify people by ethnicity. Any company worth its salt in the field can do it And the characteristic is a tentpole feature of companies that develop it.

What purchasers do with the technology has little to do with the company that created it.

Btw, Huawei is also developing facial recognition for pigs. I suppose pig privacy advocates will be up in arms if they get wind of that!

So, you agree that the PRC is a human rights violator when surveillance is targeted at minorities (94% of China's population is ethnic Han), and the Huawei is deeply involved.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/29/leaked-papers-link-xinjiang-crackdown-with-china-leadership

This is a distortion of fact. The fact is China is using surveillance at ALL people for security only. You extract Uyghurs out for your propaganda. 

Perhaps it is simply that minorities are extracted to "reeducation" camps against their will, just as the evidence shows.

It would be interesting to compare how many minorities have been arrested in China vs the U.S. -- or how many in the U.S. never made it to arrest and were just executed where they stood (or laid -- face down and in handcuffs with 5 cops on top of the them).

Here, we let domestic terrorists breed and grow while we kill or imprison the minorities for, say, the crime of having an air freshener hanging from their mirror.  China seems to do the opposite -- and that terrifies the cult of China Haters.

LOL!

We really don't have much comparison vs the PRC given the lack of independent journalism in China, so your whataboutism falls flat.

So, let's talk about involuntary organ harvesting of Falun Gong prisoners by the Chinese State...

Organ transplantation in China has taken place since the 1960s, and is one of the largest organ transplantprogrammes in the world, peaking at over 13,000 liver and kidney transplants a year in 2004.[2] Involuntary organ harvesting[3][4][5] is illegal under Chinese law; though, under a 1984 regulation, it became legal to remove organs from executed criminals with the prior consent of the criminal or permission of relatives. Growing concerns about possible ethical abuses arising from coerced consent and corruption led medical groups and human rights organizations, by the 1990s, to condemn the practice.[6] These concerns resurfaced in 2001, when a Chinese asylum-seeking doctor testified that he had taken part in organ extraction operations.[7]

In 2006, allegations emerged that many Falun Gong practitioners had been killed to supply China's organ transplant industry.[8][9] An initial investigation stated "the source of 41,500 transplants for the six year period 2000 to 2005 is unexplained" and concluded that "there has been and continues today to be large scale organ seizures from unwilling Falun Gong practitioners".[8]

In December 2005, China's Deputy Health Minister acknowledged that the practice of removing organs from executed prisoners for transplants was widespread.[10] In 2007, China issued regulations banning the commercial trading of organs,[11] and the Chinese Medical Associationagreed that the organs of prisoners should not be used for transplantation, except for members of the immediate family of the deceased.[12] In 2008, a liver-transplant registry system was established in Shanghai, along with a nationwide proposal to incorporate information on individual driving permits for those wishing to donate their organs.[13]

Despite these initiatives, China Daily reported in August 2009 that approximately 65% of transplanted organs still came from death row prisoners. The condemned prisoners have been described as "not a proper source for organ transplants" by Vice-Health Minister Huang Jiefu,[14] and in March 2010, he announced the trial of China's first organ donation program starting after death, jointly run by the Red Cross Society and the Ministry of Health, in 10 pilot regions. In 2013, Huang Jiefu altered his position on utilizing prisoners' organs, stating that death row prisoners should be allowed to donate organs and should be integrated into the new computer-based organ allocation system.[15] In 2018 and 2019, media investigations and academic analysis into these allegations increased.[16][17][18]

Yeah, just wonderful people, those Chinese Communists...

sdw2001 said:

GeorgeBMac said:

sdw2001 said:

GeorgeBMac said:

sdw2001 said:

GeorgeBMac said:

sdw2001 said:

On one hand, I don't blame Apple for threading the needle with the CCP in order to get access to a market with 5 times the population of U.S.   But on the other, that's a lot of money and resources that are building Communist China instead of the United States.  China is a major competitor, biggest trade partner, and #1 threat to the U.S. all at the same time.  Their government's goal is to be the world superpower by 2050.  This was a long-term plan started in the 1970's.  We dismissed them for decades, thought we "free" trade could liberalize the CCP, and their military was subpar compared to ours.  All that has changed in the last 20 years.  While we still have a superior military, they have the capability to win a battle (for example, Taiwan) before we can respond with full force.  They also have sophisticated enough equipment (planes, missiles, anti-satellite etc.) to give us real problems.  

Is there any actual evidence that China is a threat to the U.S. or that they intend to become the world's leading super (military) power -- or is it just more propaganda left over from the Trump era?

We know how that operates:  repeat the lies enough times and they becomes the new alternative facts.

It's hard to believe you're for real sometimes.  

Actual evidence?  China is building hypersonic missiles, anti-satellite and anti-carrier weapons and modernizing it's 2,000,000-strong PLA at a rapid pace.  Real-world spending on actual weapons and capabilities approaches our own.  Any China expert will tell you China likely spends double what they claim, and that most of it goes to actual capability (whereas much of our budget goes to pay and maintenance).   They have an advanced nuclear capability.  That doesn't mean they are planning to attack the United States.  But it does mean they want to dominate Asia and deny us access.  It does mean that if we move to defend Taiwan, it could result in a major, bloody conflict.  Economically, they have been waging war for 50 years.  They seek to be the global economic and military superpower.  They have stated it openly for decades.  

This has nothing to do with "propaganda" or Trump.  This was going on long before Trump even ran. China has hollowed us out economically and has infiltrated our institutions more than the Soviets ever could have dreamed.  Universities. Congress. Finance. Technology.  But yeah, let's keep whistling past our own graveyard, because Orange Man Band™.  

Yes, if we try to take what is theirs, they will defend it.

And yes, they don't like U.S. warships and planes threatening them near their homeland and if we push them too far they will sink our silly little boats.  They've been clear:  they will not allow western countries to colonize or intimidate them again.  Ain't gonna happen.

And yes, they beat us in the war of free market capitalism.

...  Losing that war to them doesn't make them our enemy anymore than Microsoft is the enemy of Apple.

Does Patrick Mahomes blame Tom Brady for his loss?  Does he think Tom Brady is his "enemy"?  No, he (hopefully) realizes that he and his team need to get better at what they do.

As I've said,  Instead of blaming China for our loss, we need to get better at free market capitalism.

But, we had/have a populist demagogue riling up the frightened disenfranchised chest thumpers looking for excuses for why they lost and offering them quick (but worthless) fixes. 

----------------

Added:  Interesting that one of our few successful new home grown corporations (Moderna) is opening a new manufacturing plant -- but not here in the U.S.   Rather, in Asia (Australia to be exact).  Reportedly:

"a second such commitment in Asia Pacific by a western mRNA vaccine developer, underscores efforts by governments around the world to build up local production and prepare for future pandemic threats after limited early access to shots led to slow COVID-19 vaccine rollouts."

Sounds like not even our closest allies trust U.S. industry to meet their needs.

Take what is theirs? Do you mean Taiwan?  Because Taiwan has never been "theirs," nor are we trying to take it.  We're not the ones building islands in the South China Sea and militarizing them.  We're not trying to colonize or intimidate them.  On the contrary, we've welcomed and encouraged China to become part of the First World.  WTO membership, most favored nation status, you name it.  

Two things can be true at the same time.  We have allowed China to hollow us out economically, absolutely.  But China is not engaging in "free market capitalism."  They are engaged in CommunoCapitalism, or fascism by another name.  The CCP is tyrannical, like all Communists are.  What are we prepared to let them do? Are we going to sit back and let them invade Taiwan? Take over the world economically through their Belt and Road initiative? Infiltrate every sector of our society? How long do you think it will be until the CCP decides it's time to take us on directly?  And yes, without a posture change, they will.  Because that's what tyrants do.  Unless we stand up to China, that day will come.  China has the capability today to cause us serious harm.  If they wanted, they could launch a simultaneous anti-satellite and naval attack that would destroy most of our capability in the Pacific.  They could sink 3 aircraft carriers, 20 submarines, and multiple destroyers as well as disrupt the entire GPS system in one day.  They could take Taiwan at the same time.  The only reason they won't is they currently believe we will bring to bear all our remaining assets, including nuclear weapons.  But the more they see our decline, the more international weakness we show, the more their calculations will change.  Look at their behavior since the Afghanistan debacle.  They (and Russia) are behaving very aggressively.  Putin is going to invade Ukraine, and we will likely do nothing.  China is going to see that and conclude in short order that it's time to go for Taiwan, and therein lies the road to war.  The military and security complex, along with major parts of both political parties will declare China's taking of Taiwan a bridge too far.  If the Biden folks are still in office, they will want to avoid being seen as weak.  Bingo...the one thing that crowd can do that we can't undo....World War III.  

Sorry, but Taiwan has always been part of China.   And, before they claimed to be an independent country (at the urging of our head terrorist Donald Trump) they claimed to BE China -- to represent ALL of China.  This independent country bullshit is just another of Trump's lies.  We and the rest of the world have never recognized two separate China's ever. 

And we didn't "allow" China to do anything -- that's just more of Trump's bullshit.

Our jobs and industries migrated to Asia (mostly Japan) simply because they beat us at our own game:  Free Market Capitalism:  They built things better, faster and cheaper.  And they continue doing so -- just that the industrial center has moved from Japan to China and a few others.

1.  Wrong.  Taiwan has never really been part of China.  That claim started in the 1930's and 40's.  https://thediplomat.com/2021/06/was-taiwan-ever-really-a-part-of-china/ ;

2.  You're free to attack the former President all you want, but that's not really relevant to this discussion.  We are discussing China's economic and military aggression, not political rhetoric.  Of course, I doubt you can separate the two.  Number one, Orange Man Bad™ and number two:  People who think like you seem to believe that said Orange Man has taken over the brains of 75 million people.  

3. We absolutely allowed China to do what it has done.  We even encouraged it through our trade policies over the past 20 years.  It's not controversial to state that we openly favored China because 1) We like cheap stuff and 2) We thought "free" trade would liberalize them.  We have not prevented the CCP from infiltrating every institution we have.  Free Market Capitalism....lol.  Is that the system you think China has? Are you honestly naive enough to not realize the CCP is part of virtually every industry in China? 

If you want to keep screaming "bullshit!" and calling the former President a liar, that's up to you.  I'm more interested in the clear and present danger of the Chinese Communist Party.