waveparticle

tmay said:

waveparticle said:

crowley said:

waveparticle said:

crowley said:

GeorgeBMac said:

waveparticle said:

tmay said:

waveparticle said:

crowley said:

waveparticle said:

ronn said:

tmay said:

waveparticle said:

tmay said:

waveparticle said:

crowley said:

waveparticle said:

crowley said:

GeorgeBMac said:

AppleZulu said:

GeorgeBMac said:

ronn said:

crowley said:

Not sure how China can "give up" Taiwan when they exhibit no control over it at all.

Thank you! It's pointless trying to reason with dunces. They're consuming from the CCP trough and nothing will convince them otherwise. Not wasting my time any further.

It's called the trough of reality.  The only group who sees it your way are the China Haters.  The rest of the world sees Taiwan as an autonomous region of China.  Not even the U.S. government (even under Trump) considers Taiwan an independent country.

We have tried your nation building under the "Democracy, Freedom and Independence" mantra how many times now?   And how many times did it work?  And how many times did thousands of Americans die before we gave up?   And you want to do that again?   As the saying goes:
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"

I don’t think the term “nation building” means what you think it means. Without even getting into the merits or dangers of getting involved in helping Taiwan assert its independence, whatever unholy mess that conflict would be, one thing it wouldn’t be is “nation building.” 

The only thing Taiwan lacks in being a “nation” is full international diplomatic recognition. Taiwan does not need anyone to come in to help them create political structure and government organizations, or to create a police or military force, or to build infrastructure, or create schools, or any of the things involved in “nation building.” 

If, in some fantasy scenario, the PRC dropped their claims on Taiwan this morning, Taiwan would be a “nation” by tea time, with no “nation building” needed. 

LOL... So, i don;t understand what "nation building" means?

What you guys are attempting to do is the epitome of nation building:   Create a nation where none previously existed (despite your delusions that Taiwan has always been an independent nation).

And, it rests on the notion that the U.S. is able to dictate to the rest of the world how it will act, behave and think.

We should have learned that we are neither the saviors of the world as well as the limitations of our power and resources long ago.  We just got slapped in the face with that reality -- again -- but some people are slow learners.

How many Americans should die trying (in vain) to "liberate" Taiwan?  How many are you willing to sacrifice?

Or, are you just plan to continue the tough-guy talk until China has had enough of it and moves in -- and then walk away from yet another people who trusted us to defend them?   You know, like the Kurds or the Afghans.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

There is no plan to spend American lives in liberating Taiwan, Taiwan doesn't need to be liberated!  It already is independent.  No one is creating a nation out of Taiwan because Taiwan is already a nation in just about every way that counts apart from formal recognition, and very few people are saying that there's any need for that to change.

The only one creating any ruckus here is you.

Do you really understand the English word independent? Can Taiwan defend by itself?

Why does Taiwan need to defend itself?  It has a bigger army relative to population than lots of other independent nations around the world, so it can defend itself better than most, all other things being equal.

Every time before Taiwan holds a presidential equation, the government will send a delegation to US to hold talks with US officials. If it is really independent, why does it need US approval of the candidate? 

You really need to post a reliable source for that. Mr. PRC.

I'll wait...

Can you read Chinese?

Can you?

Of course you can.
 
Sounds as if you don't have a reliable source...

He's posting to straight propaganda to increase his bounty from the CCP bosses. .50C per post isn't a lot!

My source is from Taiwanese news media. George is right! You are afraid of facts. 

Maybe we can all rest a bit easier then, because if the PRC are willing to throw money away on this kind of half-assed crappy trolling then they're not nearly as smart as we've all been lead to believe.

Nonsense! Why do you think my facts are so important?

How about that post. Mr PRC?

I'll translate myself;

https://translate.google.com

It is very difficult to find because Taiwan does not want this kind of news to be widely known. So it is a lone news. But I will keep searching. 

Don't waste your time.

Even after you post the article, it will not change a thing

I fail to see how you can say this for certain given that you've never posted a link to back up anything you've said ever.  Proof is anathema in the PRC-club.

You did not provide any link. And TMay only provided links from western propaganda and are not trustable. 

I don't see much need to provide links since everything I've said is self evident if you have the barest grasp of history, but sure, I'll play the part of educator.  The ROC was recognised as China by the UN until the 70s.  The PRC has been recognised as China since then.  The PRC exhibits no control over the island of Taiwan.  The ROC exhibits no control over mainland China.  They are independent of each other.  

The complication is the extant claims that both profess in being the legitimate government over the whole of China and Taiwan.  But that is a diplomatic anomaly that is a holdover from the civil war, in much the same way as both North and South Korea claim to be the "true" Korea.  Pick a side according to your ideology, but any semblance of real world practicality will tell you that they are separate and independent.  

There is some controversy over how to resolve the issue, but fundamentally there is no need to resolve the issue, everyone is satisfied with the status quo and no one wants to see conflict.  So you and George are just stirring up trouble with your propaganda and muddying of waters.  Cut it out.

And you still haven't posted anything to back up your claims.

You failed history! China was one of four founding nations of UN and thus ROC is not RECOGNIZED by UN. 
And your biggest failure is failed to recognize US is the hand behind all the world affairs after WWII. I said Taiwan is not independent originated from this premise. Taiwan cannot be independent if it does not get support from US. This is the conclusion from the premise. 

Actually, the ROC, Taiwan, represented China at the U.N. until 1971, so not only do you have it backwards, you also fail to recognize that there were five founding members of the U.N.

You actually failed massively. Evidently, education in the PRC isn't all that thorough.

More to the point, those five members together won WWII; U.S., U.K, France, Soviet Union, and China. The reason that the U.S. remained the superpower of those five was simply that the U.S. was almost untouched by the damage of warfare. Even today, the U.S. is the leader of the free world simply because it has the military to sustain the rules of order, albeit it relies on its allies to accomplish that mission.

The PRC, being authoritarian, is quite unhappy with the rules of order, and has been attempting to circumvent those rules. The West is coming together quite quickly to prevent that from happening. 

Oh, and thanks for mentioning that the U.S., et al, need to protect Taiwan from the bullies in the PRC. That's what the free world exists to do; protect democracies.

ronn said:

waveparticle said:

ronn said:

"Automous region" is some ultimate bullshit. Taiwan controls its currency, armed forces and holds independent, fair, democratic elections. Just because the communist regime bullies others to not "officially" recognize Taiwan doesn't make them some "automous region," renegade province, or any other such nonsense.

Taiwan is trying to make a history of its own. Will historian around the world recognize Taiwan? 

Oi! It's never been a part of the PRC and was a Japanese colony for 50 years (1895-1945). For more than 75 years it's been independent no matter what the communist oligarchs proclaim. So Taiwan is not trying to make its own history. It's continuing its history.

tmay said:

waveparticle said:

tmay said:

waveparticle said:

tmay said:

GeorgeBMac said:

waveparticle said:

tmay said:

GeorgeBMac said:

red oak said:

Suppose it does come out that the virus was man made by China.    Would Apple, who has become so politically correct, say one word?     No, they won’t.   And it would be be so hypocritical 

What if it comes out that the virus came from the U.S.?  Would you say one word?  No, you won't.  And it would be so hypocritical.

There is zero evidence that the SARS-COVID 19 virus originated in the U.S.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00502-4

Was the virus spreading in people outside China before December 2019?

Answering this question is also key to establishing the timeline of the first COVID-19 cases. Previously, researchers in Europe have reported1,2,3 finding antibodies against SARS-CoV-2 in samples taken at blood banks from November 2019 onwards.

Ben Embarek says this doesn’t necessarily suggest the virus originated in Europe, but supports the idea that it was spreading in Wuhan before the first known cases. “Wuhan at that time was a very well-connected international city with direct flights to the entire planet on a daily basis. So if it was circulating in Wuhan, it could easily have been brought to other parts of the world through travellers, and circulating again, undetected, in different regions,” he says.

Still, he recommends that the blood samples from Europe be retested to confirm that they indicate cases of COVID-19. Some of them, from Italy and France, are already being reanalysed, he says.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/372/6543/694.1

As scientists with relevant expertise, we agree with the WHO director-general (5), the United States and 13 other countries (6), and the European Union (7) that greater clarity about the origins of this pandemic is necessary and feasible to achieve. We must take hypotheses about both natural and laboratory spillovers seriously until we have sufficient data. A proper investigation should be transparent, objective, data-driven, inclusive of broad expertise, subject to independent oversight, and responsibly managed to minimize the impact of conflicts of interest. Public health agencies and research laboratories alike need to open their records to the public. Investigators should document the veracity and provenance of data from which analyses are conducted and conclusions drawn, so that analyses are reproducible by independent experts.

Needless to say, China would resort to official propaganda blaming the Ft. Detrick Laboratory in the U.S., rather than allow the World to investigate the origin of SARS-COVID 19.

Gain of function is pioneered in the western world. In other words, western scientists have been doing this kind of experiment all the time. Covid-19 may not be originated from Ft. Derrick Laboratory. But this lab must be doing similar experiment. There was an accident in the lab early in 2019. Why US government does not allow inspection in the lab? The argument for rein spection of the Wuhan lab is to prevent another pandemic in the future. I think this argument should be applied to all the virus labs in the world. Don't you agree? 

Blood work from U.S. patients taken in 2019 show they were infected with the virus.   So, did we give it to China or did they give it us?   Or, most likely, did a third country give it to both of us.

But, because of politics, both countries will continue pointing fingers at each other rather than seeking the truth -- which, frankly is a moot point right now.  We should be focused on eradicating the virus rather than a grade school squabble over who pushed who.

One of the expectations of a new and independent investigation in China would be for China to provide PCR testing of all their blood work taken in the Hubei Province from August thru November, and perhaps even earlier, to determine how long the SARS-COVID 19 had been circulating in China. It's a certainty that testing would show SARS-COVID 19 circulating much earlier than those few samples found in the rest of the world, including the U.S.

Given that Wuhan has airline connections to most of the world, it wouldn't be unexpected to find SARS-COVID 19 outside of China, but it would also be the case that these variants would be derivatives of the original variant, hence why the investigation must test those blood samples in the Hubei Province.
 

They aren't stupid.  They know those pushing for a second investigation are only looking for a way to further their political and  ideological agenda -- and any further investigation would be neither transparent or impartial. 

China's "Wolf Warrior Diplomacy" is merely a reaction to U.S. smear campaigns.   They tried ignoring the smears, but they continued.  So, China is pushing back.   

...  But, as usual, the playground bully throws a hissy fit when his victim hits back

Yeah, that must be it.  /s

It would not answer the question if the virus was brought in from outside. How would you resolve this question? 

The PRC has had 20 months to figure out where it originated, and they have not acknowledged that origin yet. It's likely that they never will.

If you are postulating that the virus came from outside China, then the PRC would still have to determine an origin within China. Then they would have to determine a plausible connection made from outside China. That hasn't happened.

It could be originated from Italy. Blood samples showed that antibody as early as October, 2019.

Then it should be easy to test blood samples in the Hubei Province to find out when SARS-COVID 19 shows up.

Oh, wait. That would require an independent investigation that the PRC won't allow.

lordjohnwhorfin said:

Aaaaaand stock tanks. Go figure.