So I have an extra 5GB and I'm using that for backups and iCloud app data. It gets unregistered as a user decides to wipe a device that isn't functioning properly (or whatever) but when he builds his system back up a different iCloud ID gets registered first. In your scenario that 5GB gets removed from the account and data utilized on that 5GB gets kicked off as part of your "you lose the 5GB" comment.
But which data? What if the user didn't mean to register that particular iCloud account for the extra data? What if that data are saved documents for various apps?
The very fact that you haven't thought about any circumstances that could lead to a loss of user data and how to resolve them is proof that you haven't thought it through. As I previously stated, these aren't unsurmountable issues, but they are issues and expecting Apple to do what you say without any other consideration is just setting them up for failure..
Simple enough to solve (and your accusations that I didn't think of the consequences are ridiculous):
1. Apple would presumably not delete the space just because you wipe the device. I would suspect that they'd only drop the space only if the device was re-registered under a different account.
2. Apple would presumably send notice and a time delay before deleting anything. Tell the account owner - you have 30 days or we will delete the oldest data first.
3. Apple could leave the space in place indefinitely even if someone removes a device from the account and just not allow it to add space to a different account. That is, you get 5 GB for the first account that you ever connect the device to. Even if you move the device, the space stays with the original account.
Nice to see pro-business states offering incentives unlike anti-business Taxifornia.
It really depends on what kind of business you have. If you can do business in the middle of a desert, fine move there. Most businesses on the west and east coasts exist there because that is where the talent is and where their customers are. You might pay more tax but that is just the cost of doing business.
Simple enough to solve (and your accusations that I didn't think of the consequences are ridiculous):
1. Apple would presumably not delete the space just because you wipe the device. I would suspect that they'd only drop the space only if the device was re-registered under a different account.
2. Apple would presumably send notice and a time delay before deleting anything. Tell the account owner - you have 30 days or we will delete the oldest data first.
3. Apple could leave the space in place indefinitely even if someone removes a device from the account and just not allow it to add space to a different account. That is, you get 5 GB for the first account that you ever connect the device to. Even if you move the device, the space stays with the original account.
There are plenty of ways around the problems.
:sigh: I've already gone through those scenarios and the issues the introduce. You keep piling on without considering any of the downsides to what you propose. The simple truth is you're not thinking it through. Giving you space indefinitely every time you add an iCloud account to an iDevice? Come on!
:sigh: I've already gone through those scenarios and the issues the introduce. You keep piling on without considering any of the downsides to what you propose. The simple truth is you're not thinking it through. Giving you space indefinitely every time you add an iCloud account to an iDevice? Come on!
I think what he is saying makes sense. It is simply like a grocery store rewards card. You buy a device, Apple gives you more storage. How they implement the authentication is irrelevant. I believe that even after you retire an iOS device or sell it you should still keep the added storage and the new owner/user of the retired device gets 5GB which is certainly not going to break the bank. The number of people who are going to try to game the system is probably about the same number as the jail breakers. Not enough to worry about. If they hack their way into more storage, Apple fixes it on the next update.
Of course it makes no difference to me because I have yet to use iCloud storage as it doesn't accept my file types.
I believe that even after you retire an iOS device or sell it you should still keep the added storage and the new owner/user of the retired device gets 5GB which is certainly not going to break the bank.
So you get a new device and you can pass it around to unlimited people each singing in, signing out, and getting an additional 5GB of storage for a device they don't own?
I've already exploited this type of sign-in/sign-out feature with Dropbox at Apple Store Macs to get additional storage. That only works once per device and it has to be a device using a desktop OS. It also required a more complex setup than simply inputting a username and password into your iDevice.
It's simply not realistic to say it won't be exploited and that it's worth considering the pros and cons. The easiest solution I see is simply giving users more space.
So you get a new device and you can pass it around to unlimited people each singing in, signing out, and getting an additional 5GB of storage for a device they don't own?
I've already exploited this type of sign-in/sign-out feature with Dropbox at Apple Store Macs to get additional storage. That only works once per device and it has to be a device using a desktop OS. It also required a more complex setup than simply inputting a username and password into your iDevice.
It's simply not realistic to say it won't be exploited and that it's worth considering the pros and cons. The easiest solution I see is simply giving users more space.
Perhaps Apple will hire you to test whatever implementation they devise. It's just programming not brain surgery. I think Apple could easily do it if they wanted to. The small details of the back end are for the engineers to figure out. As a business model it makes some sense from a halo perspective. But, like I said, I don't bother using it even though they gave me 20GB for being a previous subscriber to MobileMe. I don't know what I would do with more storage.
Perhaps Apple will hire you to test whatever implementation they devise. It's just programming not brain surgery. I think Apple could easily do it if they wanted to. The small details of the back end are for the engineers to figure out. As a business model it makes some sense from a halo perspective. But, like I said, I don't bother using it even though they gave me 20GB for being a previous subscriber to MobileMe. I don't know what I would do with more storage.
I certainly think they could figure it out (as I've stated multiple times in this thread) but it logistics not programming that will be the issue, hence my reference to the MobileMe fiasco which was not thinking through the situation before they unleashed it.
PS: I have never used the 5GB and I back up all capable iDevices to iCloud, except for my iPhone 4 which is used for app testing, yet I know several that have backups that are much larger than mine. I'm not sure what they are backing up that I'm not but 5GB seems to be a bit limiting to many others. I wouldn't be surprised to see the service moved to a flat 10GB when they do make the move, not a complex setup of giving you data per device that can be recalled by logging out or given to anyone that signs in with some honour system. Here is my current usage.
PS: I have never used the 5GB and I back up all capable iDevices to iCloud,
I should probably consider that too. Mine all have iCloud back up turned off. I looked at my storage just now and I have 24.81 of 25GB. Just my mail is being used and there isn't much of that. I almost never back up my iDevices although I do always back up my computer data to the data center or detachable storage. I just don't keep anything on iDevices that I can't re-download. I'll take a look at it when I get back to wifi. I don't want to use up my cell data right now.
Almost any worthwhile mail service wold scan data passing through the system for viruses and other maleware. The place to do this is on the server and not your iOS device. Anybody with even a slight understanding of how e-mail can be exploited to compromise a machine would welcome Apples attempts to filter out crap associated with maleware.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling
Proof?
The Verge had an interesting article comparing the privacy policies of various cloud drive providers.
Both Google and Apple's policies are remarkably similar, with one major exception. Apple states that it can remove any content it finds "objectionable". As the Verge put it:
"That's the harshest line yet — Apple says it can scan and delete any data it wants at any time if that data is "objectionable," without strictly defining what "objectionable" actually means. That's probably not going to be an issue for the vast majority of iCloud users, but it's something to think about if you're putting anything sensitive or on the fringe into your iCloud account."
We already know they scan emails, from the recent brouhaha over the "barely legal" stuff.
If a cloud drive provider is going to scan my stuff, I'd rather they use it for anonymous trend collection, rather than to make moral judgements on me.
I certainly think they could figure it out (as I've stated multiple times in this thread) but it logistics not programming that will be the issue, hence my reference to the MobileMe fiasco which was not thinking through the situation before they unleashed it.
PS: I have never used the 5GB and I back up all capable iDevices to iCloud, except for my iPhone 4 which is used for app testing, yet I know several that have backups that are much larger than mine. I'm not sure what they are backing up that I'm not but 5GB seems to be a bit limiting to many others. I wouldn't be surprised to see the service moved to a flat 10GB when they do make the move, not a complex setup of giving you data per device that can be recalled by logging out or given to anyone that signs in with some honour system. Here is my current usage.
Easy. They probably have Photostream on and have a lot of pictures/videos. That's the one thing I DON'T have set to backup as I like to manually go over what's on my phone and move the good stuff over to my home server and delete the rest
None of the 8 iPhones/iPads we have are anywhere near the 5GB limit. And both my wife and I have an iPhone/iPad that share the same 5GB iCloud account (so we can keep them synced) and they are still well below.
Perhaps people who run out could tell us what they have on their devices that uses so much data (esp considering Apps and music don't count).
There's a difference. Google makes money off your account by harvesting your data. Apple does not.
Originally Posted by Gatorguy
But do you really know whether Apple makes any revenue from harvesting their user data too? It seems likely they do. Otherwise how would they deliver targeted iAds? As long as it's on a smaller scale than Google is that enough to make it acceptable to you that Apple might make money from "selling you" too?
Originally Posted by KDarling
Proof?
...
Both Google and Apple's policies are remarkably similar, with one major exception. Apple states that it can remove any content it finds "objectionable". As the Verge put it:
Proof? It's a given that Google makes money based on gathering data about their users, right? Regardless of whether or not they "sell" it (semantics) externally, their business model, for many years now, depends on gathering personal data about their users. I think everyone in the universe, including Google themselves agrees with that statement. So what you're trying to say is that Apple is "just as bad", am I right?
I am living proof that they are not. I use many (many) Apple products (laptops, desktops, servers, iDevices), and I have for many years, both personally and professionally. And I guarantee you that they are not, have not, and will not ever make one thin dime off my personal data. How can I guarantee that? Because I don't give them any.
I don't use .mac, iCloud, or any of Apple's online services, with the exception of the App Store, which you can use 100% anonymously via iTunes gift cards.
I don't buy their products over the internet, I buy them in retail outlets, where we can still use actual U.S. currency instead of fucking "plastic surveillance cards".
So regardless of privacy polices, data gathering policies, or any other policies, it is relatively easy to use Apple products without becoming their product in turn. On the other hand, it is impossible to do this with Google products, merely because of the nature of hardware products vs. online service-based products.
Worse, when other people use Google services (or any number of other online social services), those products often take advantage of your relationships with friends, family and associates to access your personal information indirectly. Merely being on the receiving end of email from a gmail user means that you are now attached to that user's social graph in Google's databases, and they scan through any communication sent to or from you and your friend.
I don't give a shit about what Google, Apple or any other service provider does with other people's data, as long as I can opt out myself. I can do that with Apple, and I cannot do that with Google. There's your "proof".
Easy. They probably have Photostream on and have a lot of pictures/videos. That's the one thing I DON'T have set to backup as I like to manually go over what's on my phone and move the good stuff over to my home server and delete the rest
None of the 8 iPhones/iPads we have are anywhere near the 5GB limit. And both my wife and I have an iPhone/iPad that share the same 5GB iCloud account (so we can keep them synced) and they are still well below.
Perhaps people who run out could tell us what they have on their devices that uses so much data (esp considering Apps and music don't count).
That makes sense. I do have Photostream and never clean it out, but I'm also not fond of taking pictures so it's mostly images I find online or screenshots I've taken.
Perhaps people who run out could tell us what they have on their devices that uses so much data (esp considering Apps and music don't count).
Apps do count, because iCloud does allow the user to back up data from certain apps that can be enabled for back up in the preferences. And certain apps do generate a lot of user data or allow for a lot of user data to be stored.
I have certain music apps that have many gigs of user data. I obviously have to disable them from being backed up as there is no room in my iCloud. There's no limit as to how much data I can store in those apps. A 128 GB iPad can easily be filled up I'm sure. Though, I'd imagine that the most common culprit is photostream, as videos can easily take up a ton of space. I have photostream disabled also.
So you get a new device and you can pass it around to unlimited people each singing in, signing out, and getting an additional 5GB of storage for a device they don't own?
You're not paying attention. What I suggested (and mstone concurred) is that Apple could simply give the 5 GB to the first person who registers a device - and then that person could keep it. Future users would not be entitled to the extra storage.
Surely you understand how Apple can track a device's serial number and know that it has been registered before.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by WelshDog
They could put a data center in Texas and power it with a giant bullshit furnace. There are megatons of that here.
If things worked that way, Rick "Coyote Slayer" Perry could single handedly power the US. Oops.
Poor Rick is still probably confused by how he lost the primary to Mitt Romney.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
There's a difference. Google makes money off your account by harvesting your data. Apple does not.
Whatever it is, this is the case where Google (and Amazon) has done right.
Simple enough to solve (and your accusations that I didn't think of the consequences are ridiculous):
1. Apple would presumably not delete the space just because you wipe the device. I would suspect that they'd only drop the space only if the device was re-registered under a different account.
2. Apple would presumably send notice and a time delay before deleting anything. Tell the account owner - you have 30 days or we will delete the oldest data first.
3. Apple could leave the space in place indefinitely even if someone removes a device from the account and just not allow it to add space to a different account. That is, you get 5 GB for the first account that you ever connect the device to. Even if you move the device, the space stays with the original account.
There are plenty of ways around the problems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd_in_sb
Nice to see pro-business states offering incentives unlike anti-business Taxifornia.
It really depends on what kind of business you have. If you can do business in the middle of a desert, fine move there. Most businesses on the west and east coasts exist there because that is where the talent is and where their customers are. You might pay more tax but that is just the cost of doing business.
:sigh: I've already gone through those scenarios and the issues the introduce. You keep piling on without considering any of the downsides to what you propose. The simple truth is you're not thinking it through. Giving you space indefinitely every time you add an iCloud account to an iDevice? Come on!
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
:sigh: I've already gone through those scenarios and the issues the introduce. You keep piling on without considering any of the downsides to what you propose. The simple truth is you're not thinking it through. Giving you space indefinitely every time you add an iCloud account to an iDevice? Come on!
I think what he is saying makes sense. It is simply like a grocery store rewards card. You buy a device, Apple gives you more storage. How they implement the authentication is irrelevant. I believe that even after you retire an iOS device or sell it you should still keep the added storage and the new owner/user of the retired device gets 5GB which is certainly not going to break the bank. The number of people who are going to try to game the system is probably about the same number as the jail breakers. Not enough to worry about. If they hack their way into more storage, Apple fixes it on the next update.
Of course it makes no difference to me because I have yet to use iCloud storage as it doesn't accept my file types.
So you get a new device and you can pass it around to unlimited people each singing in, signing out, and getting an additional 5GB of storage for a device they don't own?
I've already exploited this type of sign-in/sign-out feature with Dropbox at Apple Store Macs to get additional storage. That only works once per device and it has to be a device using a desktop OS. It also required a more complex setup than simply inputting a username and password into your iDevice.
It's simply not realistic to say it won't be exploited and that it's worth considering the pros and cons. The easiest solution I see is simply giving users more space.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
So you get a new device and you can pass it around to unlimited people each singing in, signing out, and getting an additional 5GB of storage for a device they don't own?
I've already exploited this type of sign-in/sign-out feature with Dropbox at Apple Store Macs to get additional storage. That only works once per device and it has to be a device using a desktop OS. It also required a more complex setup than simply inputting a username and password into your iDevice.
It's simply not realistic to say it won't be exploited and that it's worth considering the pros and cons. The easiest solution I see is simply giving users more space.
Perhaps Apple will hire you to test whatever implementation they devise. It's just programming not brain surgery. I think Apple could easily do it if they wanted to. The small details of the back end are for the engineers to figure out. As a business model it makes some sense from a halo perspective. But, like I said, I don't bother using it even though they gave me 20GB for being a previous subscriber to MobileMe. I don't know what I would do with more storage.
I certainly think they could figure it out (as I've stated multiple times in this thread) but it logistics not programming that will be the issue, hence my reference to the MobileMe fiasco which was not thinking through the situation before they unleashed it.
PS: I have never used the 5GB and I back up all capable iDevices to iCloud, except for my iPhone 4 which is used for app testing, yet I know several that have backups that are much larger than mine. I'm not sure what they are backing up that I'm not but 5GB seems to be a bit limiting to many others. I wouldn't be surprised to see the service moved to a flat 10GB when they do make the move, not a complex setup of giving you data per device that can be recalled by logging out or given to anyone that signs in with some honour system. Here is my current usage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
PS: I have never used the 5GB and I back up all capable iDevices to iCloud,
I should probably consider that too. Mine all have iCloud back up turned off. I looked at my storage just now and I have 24.81 of 25GB. Just my mail is being used and there isn't much of that. I almost never back up my iDevices although I do always back up my computer data to the data center or detachable storage. I just don't keep anything on iDevices that I can't re-download. I'll take a look at it when I get back to wifi. I don't want to use up my cell data right now.
There is some interesting history to be found in Virgina City! I hilly reccomend a visit. The whole area around Reno is in fact a gret vacation spot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rot'nApple
Reno, Nevada... Virginia City... What was the codename for this Apple project, "Ponderosa"?... Right Pa!
You don't need to "visit" the billboards are massive and all over the place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamC
Didn't know someone here is a frequent visitor.
Almost any worthwhile mail service wold scan data passing through the system for viruses and other maleware. The place to do this is on the server and not your iOS device. Anybody with even a slight understanding of how e-mail can be exploited to compromise a machine would welcome Apples attempts to filter out crap associated with maleware.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling
Proof?
The Verge had an interesting article comparing the privacy policies of various cloud drive providers.
Both Google and Apple's policies are remarkably similar, with one major exception. Apple states that it can remove any content it finds "objectionable". As the Verge put it:
"That's the harshest line yet — Apple says it can scan and delete any data it wants at any time if that data is "objectionable," without strictly defining what "objectionable" actually means. That's probably not going to be an issue for the vast majority of iCloud users, but it's something to think about if you're putting anything sensitive or on the fringe into your iCloud account."
We already know they scan emails, from the recent brouhaha over the "barely legal" stuff.
If a cloud drive provider is going to scan my stuff, I'd rather they use it for anonymous trend collection, rather than to make moral judgements on me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
I certainly think they could figure it out (as I've stated multiple times in this thread) but it logistics not programming that will be the issue, hence my reference to the MobileMe fiasco which was not thinking through the situation before they unleashed it.
PS: I have never used the 5GB and I back up all capable iDevices to iCloud, except for my iPhone 4 which is used for app testing, yet I know several that have backups that are much larger than mine. I'm not sure what they are backing up that I'm not but 5GB seems to be a bit limiting to many others. I wouldn't be surprised to see the service moved to a flat 10GB when they do make the move, not a complex setup of giving you data per device that can be recalled by logging out or given to anyone that signs in with some honour system. Here is my current usage.
Easy. They probably have Photostream on and have a lot of pictures/videos. That's the one thing I DON'T have set to backup as I like to manually go over what's on my phone and move the good stuff over to my home server and delete the rest
None of the 8 iPhones/iPads we have are anywhere near the 5GB limit. And both my wife and I have an iPhone/iPad that share the same 5GB iCloud account (so we can keep them synced) and they are still well below.
Perhaps people who run out could tell us what they have on their devices that uses so much data (esp considering Apps and music don't count).
Originally Posted by jragosta
There's a difference. Google makes money off your account by harvesting your data. Apple does not.
Originally Posted by Gatorguy
But do you really know whether Apple makes any revenue from harvesting their user data too? It seems likely they do. Otherwise how would they deliver targeted iAds? As long as it's on a smaller scale than Google is that enough to make it acceptable to you that Apple might make money from "selling you" too?
Originally Posted by KDarling
Proof?
...
Both Google and Apple's policies are remarkably similar, with one major exception. Apple states that it can remove any content it finds "objectionable". As the Verge put it:
Proof? It's a given that Google makes money based on gathering data about their users, right? Regardless of whether or not they "sell" it (semantics) externally, their business model, for many years now, depends on gathering personal data about their users. I think everyone in the universe, including Google themselves agrees with that statement. So what you're trying to say is that Apple is "just as bad", am I right?
I am living proof that they are not. I use many (many) Apple products (laptops, desktops, servers, iDevices), and I have for many years, both personally and professionally. And I guarantee you that they are not, have not, and will not ever make one thin dime off my personal data. How can I guarantee that? Because I don't give them any.
I don't use .mac, iCloud, or any of Apple's online services, with the exception of the App Store, which you can use 100% anonymously via iTunes gift cards.
I don't buy their products over the internet, I buy them in retail outlets, where we can still use actual U.S. currency instead of fucking "plastic surveillance cards".
So regardless of privacy polices, data gathering policies, or any other policies, it is relatively easy to use Apple products without becoming their product in turn. On the other hand, it is impossible to do this with Google products, merely because of the nature of hardware products vs. online service-based products.
Worse, when other people use Google services (or any number of other online social services), those products often take advantage of your relationships with friends, family and associates to access your personal information indirectly. Merely being on the receiving end of email from a gmail user means that you are now attached to that user's social graph in Google's databases, and they scan through any communication sent to or from you and your friend.
I don't give a shit about what Google, Apple or any other service provider does with other people's data, as long as I can opt out myself. I can do that with Apple, and I cannot do that with Google. There's your "proof".
That makes sense. I do have Photostream and never clean it out, but I'm also not fond of taking pictures so it's mostly images I find online or screenshots I've taken.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee
Perhaps people who run out could tell us what they have on their devices that uses so much data (esp considering Apps and music don't count).
Apps do count, because iCloud does allow the user to back up data from certain apps that can be enabled for back up in the preferences. And certain apps do generate a lot of user data or allow for a lot of user data to be stored.
I have certain music apps that have many gigs of user data. I obviously have to disable them from being backed up as there is no room in my iCloud. There's no limit as to how much data I can store in those apps. A 128 GB iPad can easily be filled up I'm sure. Though, I'd imagine that the most common culprit is photostream, as videos can easily take up a ton of space. I have photostream disabled also.
You're not paying attention. What I suggested (and mstone concurred) is that Apple could simply give the 5 GB to the first person who registers a device - and then that person could keep it. Future users would not be entitled to the extra storage.
Surely you understand how Apple can track a device's serial number and know that it has been registered before.