Hm.. Well, the obvious is that all major studios are backing Apple with this download rental service. I was quite amazed that computer company like apple can get even Sony to join thier side, but all the bribery in the world has split the HDM optical fomat support in half.
What I'm afraid of is that, soon, the download HDM rental/purchase catalog will get bigger than the current HDM titles available on both BD & HD-DVD discs. This will make most people think twice about waiting to view their favorite titles in HD on a disc.
However, there are many niche supporters like me who would still buy SDM/HDM on old fashioned optical discs. But the mass consumers seem to be sensitive to convinience and lower prices, or the balance of both over ultimate quality.
Well it's not hard to see that the movie industry people do favor a rental scheme over owning because when you own you have more control over the product. They want to limit control so that there will be less chance of piracy and more money if you have to rent everytime you want to watch. The thing is the public won't choose this as the only option. There's just no way. As I've said they're already used to one business model and if that were going to happen it already would have with normal renting and pay per view.
The trend has been in the other direction. People like to own what they spend money on and watch it the way they want to. So I wouldn't worry. The thing about downloading is that most people haven't thought this through. They think you'll just be able to carry your HD content around and burn it to a disc or transfer it somehow to another machine. They just assume it's going to be like music. Well they would have to figure out some super encryption scheme and as we all know everytime they do this someone figures a way around it. So I just don't see the movie studios going for it. Plus they would make more money in the short term renting anyway.
So as far as mainstream video goes I think optical discs are safe for a long time to come.
It must be different indeed. Over here, most people are little more polite when asking questions. Especially, when imploring for an answer.
I'm sure you are real joy to have around in real life.
But your opinion is so insistent, yet you can't approach a simple straight answer.
You continue on and on and on believing that HD-DVD still has a chance, deriding anyone who says otherwise as "fanboys" in the reply you DID give me you wittered on about PS3 this and PS3 that, when I had not even mentioned the PS3 or the films I liked or disliked.
I asked you simply to define WHAT you think has to happen before you will believe that the war IS actually over in BDs favour.
Define defeat, thats all.
Why do I want to know what YOU consider defeat? because every time someone comes up with information that points to an end to the "war" you keep shifting the goal posts, so, you define how the "war" would be decidedly "over" and then when that point is reached, WE can ALL agree with YOU.
--
I'm sure I AM a real joy to have around. but seeing as we are going for sly digs, how about - you seem to live alone*, wonder why?
not that I'll get an answer.
*endless referrals to your ever expanding hugely costly snake-oil fueled home theater system, and ridiculous audio "needs" - don't tell me you let anyone "share" that.
But your opinion is so insistent, yet you can't approach a simple straight answer.
You continue on and on and on believing that HD-DVD still has a chance, deriding anyone who says otherwise as "fanboys" in the reply you DID give me you wittered on about PS3 this and PS3 that, when I had not even mentioned the PS3 or the films I liked or disliked.
I asked you simply to define WHAT you think has to happen before you will believe that the war IS actually over in BDs favour.
Define defeat, thats all.
Why do I want to know what YOU consider defeat? because every time someone comes up with information that points to an end to the "war" you keep shifting the goal posts, so, you define how the "war" would be decidedly "over" and then when that point is reached, WE can ALL agree with YOU.
--
I'm sure I AM a real joy to have around. but seeing as we are going for sly digs, how about - you seem to live alone*, wonder why?
not that I'll get an answer.
*endless referrals to your ever expanding hugely costly snake-oil fueled home theater system, and ridiculous audio "needs" - don't tell me you let anyone "share" that.
Ok I'll bite.
If your not a BR fan boy why is it so important to you?
I already think this war has been damaging to everything about HD home video. What should have happened is the studios should have released titles equally on both formats and let the public decide. But no they had to pay studios to back them in order to win. And please I don't want to hear anything about Warner not getting anything for their change.
If you ask me I think this war and the way it's been run may have been damaging enough already to sour some people on anything but regular old DVDs for the time being. And given how much better HD looks that's sad. To top it all off there are still people ( and web sites ) posting half truths and crowing about a BluRay victory. All the while not realizing that it might be damaging to their cause. Don't get me wrong. This kind of childish behaviour exists on both sides.
If BR must win I hope it doesn't become just the Laser Disc of the 21rst century.
I asked you simply to define WHAT you think has to happen before you will believe that the war IS actually over in BDs favour.
Walter,
Do you not know how to ask a simple honest question without being a blu-ray cheerleader? I would normally ignore such ignorant question, but since you keep imploring for an answer I'll give you simple answer you can understand.
Is this the question you should be asking?
"what has to happen before you can believe there is clear winner in this HDM format war?"
The answer would be; when the HDM format is gaining on SDM market in significant proportion (perhaps 5% to start off, but I'll take 10%).
If your not a BR fan boy why is it so important to you?
I already think this war has been damaging to everything about HD home video. What should have happened is the studios should have released titles equally on both formats and let the public decide. But no they had to pay studios to back them in order to win. And please I don't want to hear anything about Warner not getting anything for their change.
If you ask me I think this war and the way it's been run may have been damaging enough already to sour some people on anything but regular old DVDs for the time being. And given how much better HD looks that's sad. To top it all off there are still people ( and web sites ) posting half truths and crowing about a BluRay victory. All the while not realizing that it might be damaging to their cause. Don't get me wrong. This kind of childish behaviour exists on both sides.
If BR must win I hope it doesn't become just the Laser Disc of the 21rst century.
I have to agree with this.... it's unfortunate, but can deny the facts. The positive side of this is that the HDM market is still a very small niche, hence the damage is also small and manageable. It's too early to assume anything at this point because whatever the industry may offer to the mass in equal value to the SDM market, things may turn around. In any rate, success or failure, the HDM market is still a niche for now. This can be good and bad depends on how you view it.
Do you not know how to ask a simple honest question without being a blu-ray cheerleader? I would normally ignore such ignorant question, but since you keep imploring for an answer I'll give you simple answer you can understand.
Is this the question you should be asking?
"what has to happen before you can believe there is clear winner in this HDM format war?"
The answer would be; when the HDM format is gaining on SDM market in significant proportion (perhaps 5% to start off, but I'll take 10%).
OK so I'll take it that "from you" that HDM means BD or HD-DVD. which doesnt exactly address my question, but If all the studios decide to support BD exclusively then how could it be HD-DVD gaining 5-10%?
If your not a BR fan boy why is it so important to you?
I already think this war has been damaging to everything about HD home video. What should have happened is the studios should have released titles equally on both formats and let the public decide. But no they had to pay studios to back them in order to win. And please I don't want to hear anything about Warner not getting anything for their change.
If you ask me I think this war and the way it's been run may have been damaging enough already to sour some people on anything but regular old DVDs for the time being. And given how much better HD looks that's sad. To top it all off there are still people ( and web sites ) posting half truths and crowing about a BluRay victory. All the while not realizing that it might be damaging to their cause. Don't get me wrong. This kind of childish behaviour exists on both sides.
If BR must win I hope it doesn't become just the Laser Disc of the 21rst century.
You seem to be coming from the "two formats are GOOD for the consumer" camp, which to be honest, over the last 2/3 years on these threads has been debated to death, basically 2 competing formats are NOT good. if we had one format from the beginning then initial adoption rates would have been higher.
I have stated a few times that I don't give a rats backside what format wins, but the writing is clearly on the wall for HD-DVD. what I can't understand is how anyone else could be so stubborn NOT to see that.
At one point I almost went HD-DVD, got suckered in by the whole "its cheaper" mantra. I did outline last year, my thinking RE: going BD and my reasons for not going neutral, but likely you missed that.
You seem to be coming from the "two formats are GOOD for the consumer" camp, which to be honest, over the last 2/3 years on these threads has been debated to death, basically 2 competing formats are NOT good. if we had one format from the beginning then initial adoption rates would have been higher.
I have stated a few times that I don't give a rats backside what format wins, but the writing is clearly on the wall for HD-DVD. what I can't understand is how anyone else could be so stubborn NOT to see that.
At one point I almost went HD-DVD, got suckered in by the whole "its cheaper" mantra. I did outline last year, my thinking RE: going BD and my reasons for not going neutral, but likely you missed that.
" You seem to be coming from the "two formats are GOOD for the consumer" camp "
When I want you to speak for me I'll let you know.
What I think is that if there has to be a 2 format competition it should be just that. Not all this phoney mudslinging. This was nothing of the sort. Also there is no good guy in all of this. BluRay is just as guilty of spreading the ilk as HD DVD.
I was a supporter of BR and planned on buying one until this war deepened. Yes I saw that HD DVD was cheap this Xmas and bought one. Knowing full well that BR might come out on top.
If BR finally becomes cheap enough so it's clear they are at a price point that would be addopted by the masses I'll buy one. HD DVD was a cheap and an inexpensive way to get into HD media on my home unit. If you ask me either one would be fine to come out on top. BR has more storage space and I'm not sure how that's so important to the consumer who just wants to watch movies with some theater quality.
HD DVD was easier to produce since it could use the same manufacturing facilities.
Both has good things on their side. Picture quality about equal.
However the thing that tipped the scales was that HD DVD had Battlestar Galactica and the new Remastered Star Trek in their hip pocket ( Which by the way looks stunning on my set ).
But in the end either would have done. It was just that HD DVD had a much better price and for me selection.
However the " Aw come on give it up " mantra BR people are chanting to HD DVD is disgusting. Why should they? Both sides played dirty pool. The waters have already been muddied.
What BR needs to do now is show a friendly face to all those people out there who purchased a HD DVD player. Maybe even some special deal with proof of purchase.
But keep up the snide remarks and the " Our side was way better than your side so give it up " Will only lead to more war. Which of course is damaging to the whole idea of HD media content.
This had nothing to do with free competition. The war was fought with politics and money.
Jim, If you don't know what you are talking about, then perhaps its better to just talk about what you do understand.
You made a choice, and now it seems you want a free lunch.
Walter,
This is exactly the attitude I'm talking about. Don't be part of the problem.
So what just exactly don't I understand?
Ps. I've had electronics as a hobby all of my life. I got that from my father who used to build his own stereo equipment. I'm 54 now. I even sold TVs in commission sales for years when I was younger. I've always followed the development of HD from the begining. That goes all the way back to 1983 when I first went to a sales semminar about ( then ) emerging technologies including HD. I left sales behind many years ago but I never stopped keeping current with what's going on. I've always been an early adopter ( I bought my first HD set in 2002 ) but this stupid war ( not healthy competition ) for the first time made me hold back for awhile. All of my friends know my knowlege exceeds any of theirs by many times. So they come to me for help when they can't solve a problem with their home theater or computer. So back off.
OK so I'll take it that "from you" that HDM means BD or HD-DVD. which doesnt exactly address my question, but If all the studios decide to support BD exclusively then how could it be HD-DVD gaining 5-10%?
BTW questions are not ignorant, only answers.
Please, keep the imaginary scenarios to yourself. But just for the kicks, here's an answer for your imaginary question.
If cheaper HD-DVD players are being sold like hot cakes, then the all studios will come where the money is.
BTW, if you do not have valid points to discuss, then please don't. Last few posts have been wasted.
More I think about it, this HDM thing reminds me of the HiDef audio collections I still enjoy and still do buy the discs for. I'm still disappointed that SACD/DVD-A failed to come out of niche status. Not because I can't have SACD vs. DVD-A prefered optical disc choice, but just the lack of bigger HD audio library to chose for me.
I kinda feel the same way about the HDM optical format war. It would be great to have the prefered choice of HDM disc format to win, but it's more important for me to see the HDM(on a disc or online download) market to win or co-exist in the mass consumer market. I still think HD-DVD has the right idea to influence the mass consumers to bring HDM out of niche status, where Blu-Ray still needs to make lots of changes to be in such position, perhaps couple more years may lower the prices enough and have fully featured players at consumer price range. Now, with the evolving download services, the mass consumer market will be further divided for the HT business. With current development of things in the HDM market, nothing will really change as long as the HDM optical disc market is still a super niche, it's insignificant whether you belive it or not.
But with all this going on..... All I really want is being able to have big enough HDM library for my private HT. In regardless of the HDM delivery format. Of course, having the optical disc copy for a back up is a bonus.
Basically I wouldn't mind if the surviving HDM remains only a niche product as long as studios support it in number of titles released like they LDs. Right now what's hurting HDM sales, besides the format war, is lack of quality media. If studios don't significantly improve their release schedules and soon, both in quantity and quality of titles, then HDM won't even achieve LD status.
Can you tell I'm impatient for some of my favorites to be released.
But the studios HAVE "come where the money is" ie the millions of BD players, and the HD-DVD proponents just bitched and moaned.
I got an answer to a question, it was painful for you, but you got there in the end I can wait now.
What imaginary scenario? that All the studios will get behind ONE format, are you saying you can't see that happening?
Remember Walter this is only a small fraction of the total Video market.
There are also many out there who bought HD DVD as well.
And they're not too happy right now. So what kind of picture do you think this paints for the rest of the buying public? Also laced with this petty bickering. Are you starting to get the picture now? In this case it's not the studios as much as it's the consumer. And Walter BR still has to win them over.
When I want you to speak for me I'll let you know.
When I want you to preach falsehoods to me , I'll let you know
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac
What I think is that if there has to be a 2 format competition it should be just that. Not all this phoney mudslinging. This was nothing of the sort. Also there is no good guy in all of this. BluRay is just as guilty of spreading the ilk as HD DVD.
Should you be using a different word to "ilk"? that part made no sense.
I guess "What I think" amounts to your opinion, I'm fine with you having one of those.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac
I was a supporter of BR and planned on buying one until this war deepened. Yes I saw that HD DVD was cheap this Xmas and bought one. Knowing full well that BR might come out on top.
So you made a purchase against your own judgment..? That doesn't belie your 54 years of experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac
If you ask me either one would be fine to come out on top.
That was my thought until I realized M$ were behind HDi
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac
BR has more storage space and I'm not sure how that's so important to the consumer who just wants to watch movies with some theater quality.
BD was designed as a recordable format THATS why its important, it may become important should TV studios decide to release older (non HD) TV shows on less discs. It already IS important to games studios.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac
HD DVD was easier to produce since it could use the same manufacturing facilities.
Key word "WAS"
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac
However the thing that tipped the scales was that HD DVD had Battlestar Galactica and the new Remastered Star Trek in their hip pocket ( Which by the way looks stunning on my set ).
Those will come in time to BD (informed opinion, but opinion all the same)
Glad your enjoying ST hope your looking forward to the new movie!
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac
However the " Aw come on give it up " mantra BR people are chanting to HD DVD is disgusting. Why should they?
so you are asking some people to "give up" on saying "give it up" ? why is it disgusting, is it not also disgusting that Toshiba pushed a proprietary format?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac
Both sides played dirty pool. The waters have already been muddied.
well then, don't call the kettle black.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac
What BR needs to do now is show a friendly face to all those people out there who purchased a HD DVD player. Maybe even some special deal with proof of purchase.
As Bite has asked more than once "doesn't your HD-DVD media play perfectly?" why would you want to get a free hand out when YOU made a supposedly informed choice? surely with all your experience you would have at least held back another while. It just sounds like you are sour because of your own actions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac
But keep up the snide remarks and the " Our side was way better than your side so give it up "
This has been my opinion for about 2 years, it still is, why should I change my opinions? I have always thought BD was the better format, simply because of the extra 20gig storage per disc. I haven't flipped 180s back and forth like some of the HD-DVD supporters have done over the few years these threads have been running, I've been consistent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac
Will only lead to more war. Which of course is damaging to the whole idea of HD media content.
DVD heard of it? there is ONE DVD format and it is/was the fastest growing format of all time, but there was just ONE format, everyone got on board with that, EVERYONE.
It's just a pity that the "2 formats are better for fair competition" lobby don't see that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac
This had nothing to do with free competition. The war was fought with politics and money.
That was the whole problem.
Pretty much with any war, you think the US is at war for freedom?
Heres one you 'might" have heard before, "All's fair in love and war"
Remember Walter this is only a small fraction of the total Video market.
AT THE MOMENT. It's not like the DVD market just appeared BOOM over night.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac
There are also many out there who bought HD DVD as well.
and plenty it seems that bought 2 players, but they just arent buying enough DISCS, warner supported BOTH formats for over a year, and they saw the sales figures and that the market was "confused" by 2 competing formats and they dumped the format that WAS NOT SELLING, because the CONSUMER was SHOWING them a choice it was making, ie. buying more BD discs.
[QUOTE=jimmac;1206237]And they're not too happy right now. So what kind of picture do you think this paints for the rest of the buying public? [\\QUOTE]
The buying public are seeing that the war is over, and buying BD players WITH CONFIDENCE and BD discs, check the official numbers someone posted into this very thread above
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac
And Walter BR still has to win them over.
DVD took 3 years from initial release to START to get accepted, how long has BD been out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac
So maybe a change of tone is in order?
yeah, maybe you can change your tone to one of acceptance of the plain hard FACTS in front of you? I dunno, thats up to you.
Basically I wouldn't mind if the surviving HDM remains only a niche product as long as studios support it in number of titles released like they LDs. Right now what's hurting HDM sales, besides the format war, is lack of quality media. If studios don't significantly improve their release schedules and soon, both in quantity and quality of titles, then HDM won't even achieve LD status.
Can you tell I'm impatient for some of my favorites to be released.
I agree and I also share your sentiment in acquiring HDM's regardless of being in niche status. I would love to see some decent catalog titles in 2008. So, I'll be motivated to purchase more HDM's. But if 2008 releases look anything close to last two month's schedule, I don't think I'll be as active purchasing HDM's this year. I'm thinking about opening an account with netflix for HDM rentals, and only purchase few must have titles. Once I do get the combo HDM player setup, I can also rent Blu-Ray titles as well at later time.
When I want you to preach falsehoods to me , I'll let you know
Should you be using a different word to "ilk"? that part made no sense.
I guess "What I think" amounts to your opinion, I'm fine with you having one of those.
So you made a purchase against your own judgment..? That doesn't belie your 54 years of experience.
That was my thought until I realized M$ were behind HDi
BD was designed as a recordable format THATS why its important, it may become important should TV studios decide to release older (non HD) TV shows on less discs. It already IS important to games studios.
Key word "WAS"
Those will come in time to BD (informed opinion, but opinion all the same)
Glad your enjoying ST hope your looking forward to the new movie!
so you are asking some people to "give up" on saying "give it up" ? why is it disgusting, is it not also disgusting that Toshiba pushed a proprietary format?
well then, don't call the kettle black.
As Bite has asked more than once "doesn't your HD-DVD media play perfectly?" why would you want to get a free hand out when YOU made a supposedly informed choice? surely with all your experience you would have at least held back another while. It just sounds like you are sour because of your own actions.
This has been my opinion for about 2 years, it still is, why should I change my opinions? I have always thought BD was the better format, simply because of the extra 20gig storage per disc. I haven't flipped 180s back and forth like some of the HD-DVD supporters have done over the few years these threads have been running, I've been consistent.
DVD heard of it? there is ONE DVD format and it is/was the fastest growing format of all time, but there was just ONE format, everyone got on board with that, EVERYONE.
It's just a pity that the "2 formats are better for fair competition" lobby don't see that.
Pretty much with any war, you think the US is at war for freedom?
Heres one you 'might" have heard before, "All's fair in love and war"
Sorry I don't believe the last one should apply to the consumer as a victim of this war.
The developement of the DVD ( ever heard of it ) was very different. Not only was it comepletely new technology but it didn't have a big competitor. It was a big difference in terms of picture quality whereas HD while better and more vivid isn't the giant difference it was with Digital vs Analog. Also the way this war has been run is why it's been so damaging. I was around for the VHS vs Betamax war and it was nothing like this. Sony would have won that one if they had been slicker on their marketing ( I guess they learned from the past ). However with this war and the way it was waged people out there are already sour on the whole thing. That's what I've been reading all over the internet. They don't want any part of it and are satisfied with their DVDs. Not a good situation for HD home video as a whole. That's why I say the fighting really has to stop. No more silly little fan boys crowing about the victory and maybe ( read this on the " Bits " ) also some compassion from the BR side. Show a good face to the consumer. You know? So they'll be more likely to buy in the future. You see I'm not arguing that BR has won the war. I'm saying that the way they ( and the other side ) fought the war may hev been more damaging than the war itself. So maybe a change in tone is in order. In my collection I also have a laser disc player. The best video that you could get at the time. Much better than tape and easier to store also since the aren't very thick. They last longer than tape also. They were around for about 20 years. They never caught on in a mainstream way. Their main reason was they couldn't record. Now this isn't the same problem with BR but it shows what can happen without the proper things in place. People need a reason to switch to HD discs. Showing them how childish and uncaring the BR camp is isn't really a good selling point.
If there had been true competition with both formats given a fair chance so the comsumer could decide this would have been fine and maybe even benificial. However this was anything but fair ( and rememeber I'm talking about both sides here ).
Like I've said I'm not too sure how much the extra storage impacts the average movie watcher. I suppose you could see things like an entire TV season on one disc or something but not really big.
I've told you why I made my decision. Price and content. knowing all the while that BR might win. I have no regrets. My machine still works flawlessly and is easily the best looking video of any of the units in my setup. I'm still buying HD DVD discs and my regular DVD actually look better than my old player which was a Panasonic DVD recorder. Not really sour here.
Ok there's been much ilk. One example from your BR side was that HD DVDs are easily scratched. Compared to what? It turns out that BR has it's data closer to the surface of the disc. So they had to develop this scratch resistant coating. When talking about the competition they claimed the HD DVD discs where fragile and easily damaged. Well it turns out they have the same kind of coating that regular DVDs have and are not anymore easily damaged than regular DVDs. Doesn't have the same kind of spin does it? I read this on " The Digital Bits ". I have to say I had a great respect for that website at one time but their clear bias and inability to just simply report the news instead of editorializing in favor of BR is just simply childish. I sometimes wonder if there was good news about HD DVD would they report it? It was this kind bias that helped make my decision also.
Now I've stated that if BR comes down in price to a mainsteam level ( $ 200.00 ) I'll buy one. Until then there nothing wrong with the HD player I already bought or the many discs I already have in my collection. And yes I'm going to buy that 2nd season of Star Trek Remastered in March.
PS. And if you go to Political Outsider you can see I don't think the U.S. is at war for freedom.
93 % of the market for BD WITHOUT counting the PS3. I'd say that has a chance of "trumping all"
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week ending 1/5/08, Blu-ray Disc player sales were at 15,257 units, and HD DVD player sales were at 14,558 units.
week ending 1/12/08 showed Blu-ray Disc increased lead by 42 percent, to 21,770 units sold. HD DVD sales plummeted by 88 percent, to just 1,758
So BD SALES are going UP by unit number (even in Jan) while HD-DVD sales are disappearing. It will get very interesting over the next few weeks/months.
93 % of the market for BD WITHOUT counting the PS3. I'd say that has a chance of "trumping all"
--
week ending 1/5/08, Blu-ray Disc player sales were at 15,257 units, and HD DVD player sales were at 14,558 units.
week ending 1/12/08 showed Blu-ray Disc increased lead by 42 percent, to 21,770 units sold. HD DVD sales plummeted by 88 percent, to just 1,758
So BD SALES are going UP by unit number (even in Jan) while HD-DVD sales are disappearing. It will get very interesting over the next few weeks/months.
Really haven't learned a thing have you? You're still caught up in the chase. Oh well!
Comments
Hm.. Well, the obvious is that all major studios are backing Apple with this download rental service. I was quite amazed that computer company like apple can get even Sony to join thier side, but all the bribery in the world has split the HDM optical fomat support in half.
What I'm afraid of is that, soon, the download HDM rental/purchase catalog will get bigger than the current HDM titles available on both BD & HD-DVD discs. This will make most people think twice about waiting to view their favorite titles in HD on a disc.
However, there are many niche supporters like me who would still buy SDM/HDM on old fashioned optical discs.
Well it's not hard to see that the movie industry people do favor a rental scheme over owning because when you own you have more control over the product. They want to limit control so that there will be less chance of piracy and more money if you have to rent everytime you want to watch. The thing is the public won't choose this as the only option. There's just no way. As I've said they're already used to one business model and if that were going to happen it already would have with normal renting and pay per view.
The trend has been in the other direction. People like to own what they spend money on and watch it the way they want to. So I wouldn't worry. The thing about downloading is that most people haven't thought this through. They think you'll just be able to carry your HD content around and burn it to a disc or transfer it somehow to another machine. They just assume it's going to be like music. Well they would have to figure out some super encryption scheme and as we all know everytime they do this someone figures a way around it. So I just don't see the movie studios going for it. Plus they would make more money in the short term renting anyway.
So as far as mainstream video goes I think optical discs are safe for a long time to come.
It must be different indeed. Over here, most people are little more polite when asking questions. Especially, when imploring for an answer.
I'm sure you are real joy to have around in real life.
But your opinion is so insistent, yet you can't approach a simple straight answer.
You continue on and on and on believing that HD-DVD still has a chance, deriding anyone who says otherwise as "fanboys" in the reply you DID give me you wittered on about PS3 this and PS3 that, when I had not even mentioned the PS3 or the films I liked or disliked.
I asked you simply to define WHAT you think has to happen before you will believe that the war IS actually over in BDs favour.
Define defeat, thats all.
Why do I want to know what YOU consider defeat? because every time someone comes up with information that points to an end to the "war" you keep shifting the goal posts, so, you define how the "war" would be decidedly "over" and then when that point is reached, WE can ALL agree with YOU.
--
I'm sure I AM a real joy to have around. but seeing as we are going for sly digs, how about - you seem to live alone*, wonder why?
not that I'll get an answer.
*endless referrals to your ever expanding hugely costly snake-oil fueled home theater system, and ridiculous audio "needs" - don't tell me you let anyone "share" that.
But your opinion is so insistent, yet you can't approach a simple straight answer.
You continue on and on and on believing that HD-DVD still has a chance, deriding anyone who says otherwise as "fanboys" in the reply you DID give me you wittered on about PS3 this and PS3 that, when I had not even mentioned the PS3 or the films I liked or disliked.
I asked you simply to define WHAT you think has to happen before you will believe that the war IS actually over in BDs favour.
Define defeat, thats all.
Why do I want to know what YOU consider defeat? because every time someone comes up with information that points to an end to the "war" you keep shifting the goal posts, so, you define how the "war" would be decidedly "over" and then when that point is reached, WE can ALL agree with YOU.
--
I'm sure I AM a real joy to have around. but seeing as we are going for sly digs, how about - you seem to live alone*, wonder why?
not that I'll get an answer.
*endless referrals to your ever expanding hugely costly snake-oil fueled home theater system, and ridiculous audio "needs" - don't tell me you let anyone "share" that.
Ok I'll bite.
If your not a BR fan boy why is it so important to you?
I already think this war has been damaging to everything about HD home video. What should have happened is the studios should have released titles equally on both formats and let the public decide. But no they had to pay studios to back them in order to win. And please I don't want to hear anything about Warner not getting anything for their change.
If you ask me I think this war and the way it's been run may have been damaging enough already to sour some people on anything but regular old DVDs for the time being. And given how much better HD looks that's sad. To top it all off there are still people ( and web sites ) posting half truths and crowing about a BluRay victory. All the while not realizing that it might be damaging to their cause. Don't get me wrong. This kind of childish behaviour exists on both sides.
If BR must win I hope it doesn't become just the Laser Disc of the 21rst century.
I asked you simply to define WHAT you think has to happen before you will believe that the war IS actually over in BDs favour.
Walter,
Do you not know how to ask a simple honest question without being a blu-ray cheerleader? I would normally ignore such ignorant question, but since you keep imploring for an answer I'll give you simple answer you can understand.
Is this the question you should be asking?
"what has to happen before you can believe there is clear winner in this HDM format war?"
The answer would be; when the HDM format is gaining on SDM market in significant proportion (perhaps 5% to start off, but I'll take 10%).
Ok I'll bite.
If your not a BR fan boy why is it so important to you?
I already think this war has been damaging to everything about HD home video. What should have happened is the studios should have released titles equally on both formats and let the public decide. But no they had to pay studios to back them in order to win. And please I don't want to hear anything about Warner not getting anything for their change.
If you ask me I think this war and the way it's been run may have been damaging enough already to sour some people on anything but regular old DVDs for the time being. And given how much better HD looks that's sad. To top it all off there are still people ( and web sites ) posting half truths and crowing about a BluRay victory. All the while not realizing that it might be damaging to their cause. Don't get me wrong. This kind of childish behaviour exists on both sides.
If BR must win I hope it doesn't become just the Laser Disc of the 21rst century.
I have to agree with this.... it's unfortunate, but can deny the facts. The positive side of this is that the HDM market is still a very small niche, hence the damage is also small and manageable. It's too early to assume anything at this point because whatever the industry may offer to the mass in equal value to the SDM market, things may turn around. In any rate, success or failure, the HDM market is still a niche for now. This can be good and bad depends on how you view it.
Walter,
Do you not know how to ask a simple honest question without being a blu-ray cheerleader? I would normally ignore such ignorant question, but since you keep imploring for an answer I'll give you simple answer you can understand.
Is this the question you should be asking?
"what has to happen before you can believe there is clear winner in this HDM format war?"
The answer would be; when the HDM format is gaining on SDM market in significant proportion (perhaps 5% to start off, but I'll take 10%).
OK so I'll take it that "from you" that HDM means BD or HD-DVD. which doesnt exactly address my question, but If all the studios decide to support BD exclusively then how could it be HD-DVD gaining 5-10%?
BTW questions are not ignorant, only answers.
Ok I'll bite.
If your not a BR fan boy why is it so important to you?
I already think this war has been damaging to everything about HD home video. What should have happened is the studios should have released titles equally on both formats and let the public decide. But no they had to pay studios to back them in order to win. And please I don't want to hear anything about Warner not getting anything for their change.
If you ask me I think this war and the way it's been run may have been damaging enough already to sour some people on anything but regular old DVDs for the time being. And given how much better HD looks that's sad. To top it all off there are still people ( and web sites ) posting half truths and crowing about a BluRay victory. All the while not realizing that it might be damaging to their cause. Don't get me wrong. This kind of childish behaviour exists on both sides.
If BR must win I hope it doesn't become just the Laser Disc of the 21rst century.
You seem to be coming from the "two formats are GOOD for the consumer" camp, which to be honest, over the last 2/3 years on these threads has been debated to death, basically 2 competing formats are NOT good. if we had one format from the beginning then initial adoption rates would have been higher.
I have stated a few times that I don't give a rats backside what format wins, but the writing is clearly on the wall for HD-DVD. what I can't understand is how anyone else could be so stubborn NOT to see that.
At one point I almost went HD-DVD, got suckered in by the whole "its cheaper" mantra. I did outline last year, my thinking RE: going BD and my reasons for not going neutral, but likely you missed that.
You seem to be coming from the "two formats are GOOD for the consumer" camp, which to be honest, over the last 2/3 years on these threads has been debated to death, basically 2 competing formats are NOT good. if we had one format from the beginning then initial adoption rates would have been higher.
I have stated a few times that I don't give a rats backside what format wins, but the writing is clearly on the wall for HD-DVD. what I can't understand is how anyone else could be so stubborn NOT to see that.
At one point I almost went HD-DVD, got suckered in by the whole "its cheaper" mantra. I did outline last year, my thinking RE: going BD and my reasons for not going neutral, but likely you missed that.
" You seem to be coming from the "two formats are GOOD for the consumer" camp "
When I want you to speak for me I'll let you know.
What I think is that if there has to be a 2 format competition it should be just that. Not all this phoney mudslinging. This was nothing of the sort. Also there is no good guy in all of this. BluRay is just as guilty of spreading the ilk as HD DVD.
I was a supporter of BR and planned on buying one until this war deepened. Yes I saw that HD DVD was cheap this Xmas and bought one. Knowing full well that BR might come out on top.
If BR finally becomes cheap enough so it's clear they are at a price point that would be addopted by the masses I'll buy one. HD DVD was a cheap and an inexpensive way to get into HD media on my home unit. If you ask me either one would be fine to come out on top. BR has more storage space and I'm not sure how that's so important to the consumer who just wants to watch movies with some theater quality.
HD DVD was easier to produce since it could use the same manufacturing facilities.
Both has good things on their side. Picture quality about equal.
However the thing that tipped the scales was that HD DVD had Battlestar Galactica and the new Remastered Star Trek in their hip pocket ( Which by the way looks stunning on my set ).
But in the end either would have done. It was just that HD DVD had a much better price and for me selection.
However the " Aw come on give it up " mantra BR people are chanting to HD DVD is disgusting. Why should they? Both sides played dirty pool. The waters have already been muddied.
What BR needs to do now is show a friendly face to all those people out there who purchased a HD DVD player. Maybe even some special deal with proof of purchase.
But keep up the snide remarks and the " Our side was way better than your side so give it up " Will only lead to more war. Which of course is damaging to the whole idea of HD media content.
This had nothing to do with free competition. The war was fought with politics and money.
That was the whole problem.
You made a choice, and now it seems you want a free lunch.
Jim, If you don't know what you are talking about, then perhaps its better to just talk about what you do understand.
You made a choice, and now it seems you want a free lunch.
Walter,
This is exactly the attitude I'm talking about. Don't be part of the problem.
So what just exactly don't I understand?
Ps. I've had electronics as a hobby all of my life. I got that from my father who used to build his own stereo equipment. I'm 54 now. I even sold TVs in commission sales for years when I was younger. I've always followed the development of HD from the begining. That goes all the way back to 1983 when I first went to a sales semminar about ( then ) emerging technologies including HD. I left sales behind many years ago but I never stopped keeping current with what's going on. I've always been an early adopter ( I bought my first HD set in 2002 ) but this stupid war ( not healthy competition ) for the first time made me hold back for awhile. All of my friends know my knowlege exceeds any of theirs by many times. So they come to me for help when they can't solve a problem with their home theater or computer. So back off.
OK so I'll take it that "from you" that HDM means BD or HD-DVD. which doesnt exactly address my question, but If all the studios decide to support BD exclusively then how could it be HD-DVD gaining 5-10%?
BTW questions are not ignorant, only answers.
Please, keep the imaginary scenarios to yourself. But just for the kicks, here's an answer for your imaginary question.
If cheaper HD-DVD players are being sold like hot cakes, then the all studios will come where the money is.
BTW, if you do not have valid points to discuss, then please don't. Last few posts have been wasted.
Haha...
More I think about it, this HDM thing reminds me of the HiDef audio collections I still enjoy and still do buy the discs for. I'm still disappointed that SACD/DVD-A failed to come out of niche status. Not because I can't have SACD vs. DVD-A prefered optical disc choice, but just the lack of bigger HD audio library to chose for me.
I kinda feel the same way about the HDM optical format war. It would be great to have the prefered choice of HDM disc format to win, but it's more important for me to see the HDM(on a disc or online download) market to win or co-exist in the mass consumer market. I still think HD-DVD has the right idea to influence the mass consumers to bring HDM out of niche status, where Blu-Ray still needs to make lots of changes to be in such position, perhaps couple more years may lower the prices enough and have fully featured players at consumer price range. Now, with the evolving download services, the mass consumer market will be further divided for the HT business. With current development of things in the HDM market, nothing will really change as long as the HDM optical disc market is still a super niche, it's insignificant whether you belive it or not.
But with all this going on..... All I really want is being able to have big enough HDM library for my private HT. In regardless of the HDM delivery format. Of course, having the optical disc copy for a back up is a bonus.
Basically I wouldn't mind if the surviving HDM remains only a niche product as long as studios support it in number of titles released like they LDs. Right now what's hurting HDM sales, besides the format war, is lack of quality media. If studios don't significantly improve their release schedules and soon, both in quantity and quality of titles, then HDM won't even achieve LD status.
Can you tell I'm impatient for some of my favorites to be released.
Please, keep the imaginary scenarios to yourself. But just for the kicks, here's an answer for your imaginary question.
If cheaper HD-DVD players are being sold like hot cakes, then the all studios will come where the money is.
BTW, if you do not have valid points to discuss, then please don't. Last few posts have been wasted.
But the studios HAVE "come where the money is" ie the millions of BD players, and the HD-DVD proponents just bitched and moaned.
I got an answer to a question, it was painful for you, but you got there in the end
What imaginary scenario? that All the studios will get behind ONE format, are you saying you can't see that happening?
But the studios HAVE "come where the money is" ie the millions of BD players, and the HD-DVD proponents just bitched and moaned.
I got an answer to a question, it was painful for you, but you got there in the end
What imaginary scenario? that All the studios will get behind ONE format, are you saying you can't see that happening?
Remember Walter this is only a small fraction of the total Video market.
There are also many out there who bought HD DVD as well.
And they're not too happy right now. So what kind of picture do you think this paints for the rest of the buying public? Also laced with this petty bickering. Are you starting to get the picture now? In this case it's not the studios as much as it's the consumer. And Walter BR still has to win them over.
So maybe a change of tone is in order?
When I want you to speak for me I'll let you know.
When I want you to preach falsehoods to me , I'll let you know
What I think is that if there has to be a 2 format competition it should be just that. Not all this phoney mudslinging. This was nothing of the sort. Also there is no good guy in all of this. BluRay is just as guilty of spreading the ilk as HD DVD.
Should you be using a different word to "ilk"? that part made no sense.
I guess "What I think" amounts to your opinion, I'm fine with you having one of those.
I was a supporter of BR and planned on buying one until this war deepened. Yes I saw that HD DVD was cheap this Xmas and bought one. Knowing full well that BR might come out on top.
So you made a purchase against your own judgment..? That doesn't belie your 54 years of experience.
If you ask me either one would be fine to come out on top.
That was my thought until I realized M$ were behind HDi
BR has more storage space and I'm not sure how that's so important to the consumer who just wants to watch movies with some theater quality.
BD was designed as a recordable format THATS why its important, it may become important should TV studios decide to release older (non HD) TV shows on less discs. It already IS important to games studios.
HD DVD was easier to produce since it could use the same manufacturing facilities.
Key word "WAS"
However the thing that tipped the scales was that HD DVD had Battlestar Galactica and the new Remastered Star Trek in their hip pocket ( Which by the way looks stunning on my set ).
Those will come in time to BD (informed opinion, but opinion all the same)
Glad your enjoying ST hope your looking forward to the new movie!
However the " Aw come on give it up " mantra BR people are chanting to HD DVD is disgusting. Why should they?
so you are asking some people to "give up" on saying "give it up" ?
Both sides played dirty pool. The waters have already been muddied.
well then, don't call the kettle black.
What BR needs to do now is show a friendly face to all those people out there who purchased a HD DVD player. Maybe even some special deal with proof of purchase.
As Bite has asked more than once "doesn't your HD-DVD media play perfectly?" why would you want to get a free hand out when YOU made a supposedly informed choice? surely with all your experience you would have at least held back another while. It just sounds like you are sour because of your own actions.
But keep up the snide remarks and the " Our side was way better than your side so give it up "
This has been my opinion for about 2 years, it still is, why should I change my opinions? I have always thought BD was the better format, simply because of the extra 20gig storage per disc. I haven't flipped 180s back and forth like some of the HD-DVD supporters have done over the few years these threads have been running, I've been consistent.
Will only lead to more war. Which of course is damaging to the whole idea of HD media content.
DVD heard of it? there is ONE DVD format and it is/was the fastest growing format of all time, but there was just ONE format, everyone got on board with that, EVERYONE.
It's just a pity that the "2 formats are better for fair competition" lobby don't see that.
This had nothing to do with free competition. The war was fought with politics and money.
That was the whole problem.
Pretty much with any war, you think the US is at war for freedom?
Heres one you 'might" have heard before, "All's fair in love and war"
Remember Walter this is only a small fraction of the total Video market.
AT THE MOMENT. It's not like the DVD market just appeared BOOM over night.
There are also many out there who bought HD DVD as well.
and plenty it seems that bought 2 players, but they just arent buying enough DISCS, warner supported BOTH formats for over a year, and they saw the sales figures and that the market was "confused" by 2 competing formats and they dumped the format that WAS NOT SELLING, because the CONSUMER was SHOWING them a choice it was making, ie. buying more BD discs.
[QUOTE=jimmac;1206237]And they're not too happy right now. So what kind of picture do you think this paints for the rest of the buying public? [\\QUOTE]
The buying public are seeing that the war is over, and buying BD players WITH CONFIDENCE and BD discs, check the official numbers someone posted into this very thread above
And Walter BR still has to win them over.
DVD took 3 years from initial release to START to get accepted, how long has BD been out?
So maybe a change of tone is in order?
yeah, maybe you can change your tone to one of acceptance of the plain hard FACTS in front of you? I dunno, thats up to you.
Basically I wouldn't mind if the surviving HDM remains only a niche product as long as studios support it in number of titles released like they LDs. Right now what's hurting HDM sales, besides the format war, is lack of quality media. If studios don't significantly improve their release schedules and soon, both in quantity and quality of titles, then HDM won't even achieve LD status.
Can you tell I'm impatient for some of my favorites to be released.
I agree and I also share your sentiment in acquiring HDM's regardless of being in niche status. I would love to see some decent catalog titles in 2008. So, I'll be motivated to purchase more HDM's. But if 2008 releases look anything close to last two month's schedule, I don't think I'll be as active purchasing HDM's this year. I'm thinking about opening an account with netflix for HDM rentals, and only purchase few must have titles. Once I do get the combo HDM player setup, I can also rent Blu-Ray titles as well at later time.
When I want you to preach falsehoods to me , I'll let you know
Should you be using a different word to "ilk"? that part made no sense.
I guess "What I think" amounts to your opinion, I'm fine with you having one of those.
So you made a purchase against your own judgment..? That doesn't belie your 54 years of experience.
That was my thought until I realized M$ were behind HDi
BD was designed as a recordable format THATS why its important, it may become important should TV studios decide to release older (non HD) TV shows on less discs. It already IS important to games studios.
Key word "WAS"
Those will come in time to BD (informed opinion, but opinion all the same)
Glad your enjoying ST hope your looking forward to the new movie!
so you are asking some people to "give up" on saying "give it up" ?
well then, don't call the kettle black.
As Bite has asked more than once "doesn't your HD-DVD media play perfectly?" why would you want to get a free hand out when YOU made a supposedly informed choice? surely with all your experience you would have at least held back another while. It just sounds like you are sour because of your own actions.
This has been my opinion for about 2 years, it still is, why should I change my opinions? I have always thought BD was the better format, simply because of the extra 20gig storage per disc. I haven't flipped 180s back and forth like some of the HD-DVD supporters have done over the few years these threads have been running, I've been consistent.
DVD heard of it? there is ONE DVD format and it is/was the fastest growing format of all time, but there was just ONE format, everyone got on board with that, EVERYONE.
It's just a pity that the "2 formats are better for fair competition" lobby don't see that.
Pretty much with any war, you think the US is at war for freedom?
Heres one you 'might" have heard before, "All's fair in love and war"
Sorry I don't believe the last one should apply to the consumer as a victim of this war.
The developement of the DVD ( ever heard of it ) was very different. Not only was it comepletely new technology but it didn't have a big competitor. It was a big difference in terms of picture quality whereas HD while better and more vivid isn't the giant difference it was with Digital vs Analog. Also the way this war has been run is why it's been so damaging. I was around for the VHS vs Betamax war and it was nothing like this. Sony would have won that one if they had been slicker on their marketing ( I guess they learned from the past ). However with this war and the way it was waged people out there are already sour on the whole thing. That's what I've been reading all over the internet. They don't want any part of it and are satisfied with their DVDs. Not a good situation for HD home video as a whole. That's why I say the fighting really has to stop. No more silly little fan boys crowing about the victory and maybe ( read this on the " Bits " ) also some compassion from the BR side. Show a good face to the consumer. You know? So they'll be more likely to buy in the future. You see I'm not arguing that BR has won the war. I'm saying that the way they ( and the other side ) fought the war may hev been more damaging than the war itself. So maybe a change in tone is in order. In my collection I also have a laser disc player. The best video that you could get at the time. Much better than tape and easier to store also since the aren't very thick. They last longer than tape also. They were around for about 20 years. They never caught on in a mainstream way. Their main reason was they couldn't record. Now this isn't the same problem with BR but it shows what can happen without the proper things in place. People need a reason to switch to HD discs. Showing them how childish and uncaring the BR camp is isn't really a good selling point.
If there had been true competition with both formats given a fair chance so the comsumer could decide this would have been fine and maybe even benificial. However this was anything but fair ( and rememeber I'm talking about both sides here ).
Like I've said I'm not too sure how much the extra storage impacts the average movie watcher. I suppose you could see things like an entire TV season on one disc or something but not really big.
I've told you why I made my decision. Price and content. knowing all the while that BR might win. I have no regrets. My machine still works flawlessly and is easily the best looking video of any of the units in my setup. I'm still buying HD DVD discs and my regular DVD actually look better than my old player which was a Panasonic DVD recorder. Not really sour here.
Ok there's been much ilk. One example from your BR side was that HD DVDs are easily scratched. Compared to what? It turns out that BR has it's data closer to the surface of the disc. So they had to develop this scratch resistant coating. When talking about the competition they claimed the HD DVD discs where fragile and easily damaged. Well it turns out they have the same kind of coating that regular DVDs have and are not anymore easily damaged than regular DVDs. Doesn't have the same kind of spin does it? I read this on " The Digital Bits ". I have to say I had a great respect for that website at one time but their clear bias and inability to just simply report the news instead of editorializing in favor of BR is just simply childish. I sometimes wonder if there was good news about HD DVD would they report it? It was this kind bias that helped make my decision also.
Now I've stated that if BR comes down in price to a mainsteam level ( $ 200.00 ) I'll buy one. Until then there nothing wrong with the HD player I already bought or the many discs I already have in my collection. And yes I'm going to buy that 2nd season of Star Trek Remastered in March.
PS. And if you go to Political Outsider you can see I don't think the U.S. is at war for freedom.
93 % of the market for BD WITHOUT counting the PS3. I'd say that has a chance of "trumping all"
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week ending 1/5/08, Blu-ray Disc player sales were at 15,257 units, and HD DVD player sales were at 14,558 units.
week ending 1/12/08 showed Blu-ray Disc increased lead by 42 percent, to 21,770 units sold. HD DVD sales plummeted by 88 percent, to just 1,758
So BD SALES are going UP by unit number (even in Jan) while HD-DVD sales are disappearing. It will get very interesting over the next few weeks/months.
http://www.techspot.com/news/28702-b...ouncement.html
93 % of the market for BD WITHOUT counting the PS3. I'd say that has a chance of "trumping all"
--
week ending 1/5/08, Blu-ray Disc player sales were at 15,257 units, and HD DVD player sales were at 14,558 units.
week ending 1/12/08 showed Blu-ray Disc increased lead by 42 percent, to 21,770 units sold. HD DVD sales plummeted by 88 percent, to just 1,758
So BD SALES are going UP by unit number (even in Jan) while HD-DVD sales are disappearing. It will get very interesting over the next few weeks/months.
Really haven't learned a thing have you? You're still caught up in the chase. Oh well!