Think of it like this, folks. Here we are, all of us speculating that the G5 will or will not be out there in January. Has anyone bothered to think WHY the NY expo was such a flop?? Let me give you an idea...
The G5 archeticture was coming along, then all of the sudden a snaffoo. This happens during the development process. Th G5 was going to be their baby, and the one to get the crowd really excited. However, they don't have that now. All they have is a new case. That isn't going to sell at all. So they punted. They put faster G4s in there, as well as made a "new" iMac enclosure (notice nothing new about them, just a comeback of Snow) with slightly faster speeds. Everyone was dissapointed, including me.
But now I look back, and I begin to speculate that maybe it was because the G5 wasn't ready then. If that is in fact the case, then they would have had an additional SIX MONTHS to fix all of the bugs and start ramping up production. This seems to be the most likely of all scenerios. This is why NY sucked, and this is why SF will have both the iMac Revisited and then new G5.
<strong>Think of it like this, folks. Here we are, all of us speculating that the G5 will or will not be out there in January. Has anyone bothered to think WHY the NY expo was such a flop?? Let me give you an idea...
The G5 archeticture was coming along, then all of the sudden a snaffoo. This happens during the development process. Th G5 was going to be their baby, and the one to get the crowd really excited. However, they don't have that now. All they have is a new case. That isn't going to sell at all. So they punted. They put faster G4s in there, as well as made a "new" iMac enclosure (notice nothing new about them, just a comeback of Snow) with slightly faster speeds. Everyone was dissapointed, including me.
But now I look back, and I begin to speculate that maybe it was because the G5 wasn't ready then. If that is in fact the case, then they would have had an additional SIX MONTHS to fix all of the bugs and start ramping up production. This seems to be the most likely of all scenerios. This is why NY sucked, and this is why SF will have both the iMac Revisited and then new G5.
BTW, I have no sources, only my gut. </strong><hr></blockquote>
no, NY sucked because everyone was expecting much too much and it wasn't realistic for that moment.
I doubt the G5 was ever meant to be released there.
G5 last NY? Probably not...though possible. I actually think it is the iMac that wasn't ready. Or, they may have decided not to release it in a bad economy....a debatable but OK idea.
Some where I read that from start to finish it takes 50-60 days to manufacture microprocessors. Ass-u-me the Register article is true, then the first volume production G5's will be ready to ship when......about the end of Jan. right. Please correct me if I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.<hr></blockquote>
60 days is a pretty good general guess at the minimum amount of cycle time for a processor witht that many metal levels. Maybe even a little more.
[quote]Any one know what ultrascalar means?<hr></blockquote>
Never heard of it in regards to general architecture. A group from Yale seemed to coin the phrase in an effort to design a high clock speed high issue width processor. Usually you make a tradeoff in IPC for clockspeed. Performance = IPC x Clockspeed. Ultrascalar in this context would be a processor that could greatly increase both it seems.
I bet if he could he would just as in the past. I am not counting on it though, because I don't think the G5 will be ready until 3rd or 4th quarter of 2002.
Hope I'm completely wrong, but I'll still be happy with whatever computer I buy in Jan.
In the summer of '99, before the G4 was released, a prominent Apple employee was quoted saying he didn't think the G4 would see the light of day before mid-2000....
The majority consensus seems to be that #3 either will happen or needs to happen or Apple is DOA. Granted that #1 would indeed be a disappointment, if G5's don't appear (my bet is March with 10.2), what's so bad about #2?
The dual 800 is a damn fine machine, and unless you want to talk about rendering, or computing the hypernegativegravometricfulx of a twinkee in a black hole, or getting 11 billion fps in Quake3, I would stack a dual 1.2Ghz Apollo G4 against a P4 2.0/2/4 any day. I have worked on a P4 1.8. Guess what? Windows still sucks. It only sucks faster. It doesn't bother me that we aren't neck and neck with the P4. I think PMQS's are fast and I love 10.1.
I don't know when the G5's will be out, but I'm pretty sure that when they do life will be good. I would rather have them come out after MWSF and be perfect than rushing out a G4.5 or a G5 celeron. (God forbid that a computer maker that has less than 5% market doesn't have the fastest os/processor of all time, all the time.) Until then, I think some people need to ease up on Apple. It's not like they're sitting around the boardroom table playing cards waiting for Mot/IBM to plod along. They are doing the best they can.
Constructive/creative G5 discussion is great, but if they are a no show, I hope this doesn't turn into the Apple sucks board. (At least no more than normal! )
I don't know when the G5's will be out, but I'm pretty sure that when they do life will be good. I would rather have them come out after MWSF and be perfect than rushing out a G4.5 or a G5 celeron. (God forbid that a computer maker that has less than 5% market doesn't have the fastest os/processor of all time, all the time.) Until then, I think some people need to ease up on Apple. It's not like they're sitting around the boardroom table playing cards waiting for Mot/IBM to plod along. They are doing the best they can.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You make a very valid point. I have been a die hard fan(atic?) about the Mac ever since its introduction in 1984. I still have one of those 128K machines. And guess what, it still works. Does it have the bells and whistles of the current line? No. Why? Because we moved ahead. And we will continue to move ahead.
What we need to do as a community is stand beside our platform of choice, no matter what sh*t comes out or what blessings are bestowed. We ought to be loyal. And bashing our favorite company just looks bad for the rest of us.
I hope that the G5 comes out in January. I hope that the G4 is in the iMac. However, if those don't happen, sure I am going to be disappointed. I will not begin saying that Apple sucks, because what alternative do I have; Windows??
(P.S. Yes, I know Linux. Unix is out there. Yes, it is a great operating system. However it was not meant to be taken such that I would forget my favorite penguin. )
[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: Mike Eggleston ]</p>
I was talking to an elite beta tester who showed me his G5 that was in a sealed clear case. He said he also had a g6 coming. There may be hope for a g5 at MWSF.
<strong>I was talking to an elite beta tester who showed me his G5 that was in a sealed clear case. He said he also had a g6 coming. There may be hope for a g5 at MWSF.</strong><hr></blockquote>
let me add some fuel to the speculation. a "special friend", who wouldn't bullsh*tting me, told me two hours ago that he personally saw a g5 at adobe. that was in september.
as far as he could see, the case was nothing special except that it was a beige pc-case
the main problem -at least back then- was the massive heat dissipation, which require(d) a big heatsink and vents. haven't we read elsewhere that the g5 was 196mm2? seems to fit...
I think that the main problem is that we have been stuck for too long with the G4..
All those speculations about the forthcoming hardware reveal that the majority of us really want to move ahead...
The computer industry moves at a very fast pace, the Peecee side have the DDR implemented in their system for way too long compared to the PowerMac.
I believe that a big part of us are just frustrated.
I expect a lot from the next event in San Francisco, the last show at New-York really let me down. And trust me, I did not have unrealistic expectation!! Just DDR and a chipset topping around 1GHZ. I do not think that a weenee 135 mhz speed bump and L3 backside cache in 6 months was something acceptable!!
If the G5 is indeed going to be ready in the next 3-4 months, then it would be very difficult to keep it under wraps. No matter how powerful the NDA, leaks will occur.
And the fact is, leaks are occuring. There have been too many reports on the G5, and they all jive together, for it to be one person pulling our chains. Rumor sites are guillible but not that bad, I'm sure they do check their sources at least enough that they would know if it was the same person feeding the G5 info to every rumor site.
Added to the rumor sites, several individuals, including Applenut, have claimed knowledge of the G5's imminent release. Applenut doesn't have a history of BS here at AI.
If the G5 is on schedule to be ready by march or even April, then Jobs will announce it. He has no choice...the desktop aren't selling. Apple cannot charge so much for outdated systems...the only way they can get away with their prices is if they put the Power back in Powermacs.
The intriguing part is that it appears from the rumors that two different chips are nearly ready at Motorola: The Apollo G4, and the G5. As a pessimist, I would say that the reports on the G5 are from people who have confused it with the Apollo G4. This makes sense and it wouldn't be all that bad, since the Apollo reportedly clocks up to 1.266 GHz. Thus if we get Apollo Powermacs, they would shape up as:
GHz:
1.0
1.133
1.266
All on either a 133 or 266 MHz system bus. Not too shabby, but not groudbreaking either.
As an optimist, I suggest an alternate explanation. The Apollo is clearly designed for low power consumption and low heat generation, and supposedly low cost. It's made for tight enclosures where heat and space are limited...such as laptops--OR--a desktop without a fan that has a tight enclosure. The new iMac fits this description.
The orginal iMac used a G3 at the time when Powermacs also ran on G3s. So it would be a break from tradition for Apple to introduce a new iMac with a G3. So my guess is that the new iMac will use the Apollo G4, clocked at the above MHz listing. Apple wants the new iMac design to be revolutionary, not evolutionary--and if it ran on a 1 GHz G3 that would be nice but not very exciting. But a 1 GHz+ G4 iMac....that would be groundbreaking for Apple! Which is why I think it's going to happen.
This leaves the Powermacs in question. An Apollo imac leaves two different options for the Powermacs:
Option 1. The iMac is clocked at a single speed for all models, like the iBook:
1.0 GHz iMac Apollo
Powermac:
1.13 GHz Apollo
1.27 GHz Apollo
Dual 1.27 GHz Apollo.
Option 2: This is the more likely option, says my gut:
1 GHz Apollo iMac
1 GHz Powermac G5
1.2 GHz Powermac G5
1.4 GHz Powermac G5
Or the Powermacs clock from 1.2-1.6 GHz.
Now, back to MWNY...why was that show such a bust? There were many rumors surrounding it that suggested something big was cancelled at nearly the last minute. I thiink it was lackluster because two products, the iMac and G4 Powermac, were nearing EOL, and Apple had devoted all their resources to finishing the successors to their desktop line, planning to make the Jan. Expo count. The iMac may have been ready, but Apple didn't want to release a G4 iMac while the Powermacs still ran with G4s. So they waited:
So the optimist in me says that MWSF will bring us G4 iMac Apollos, and Powermac G5s. This lineup makes the most sense. Yes, Apple often introduces lineups that make no sense at all...but this time I suspect it's different. There are too many concurring G5 rumors swirling around the internet for me to believe they are the work of a single person--rumor sites would get suspicious if all the rumors came from people with the same or similar IPs. And most importantly, the only rumors that do conflict report Apollo G4s being introduced. But if we make a leap in judgment and believe BOTH the G5 and Apollo rumors, we get a desktop lineup from Apple both sensible and revolutionary.
I'm taking that leap and buying stock. The worst scenario is that I hold onto the stock for a few years and cash in later. But if I'm right about the desktop lineup at MWSF, then I'll be cashing in much sooner....and with the money in hand I'll have little trouble deciding how to spend it!
Comments
you are 100% !!! a weeny 67mhz increase....or even a 100mhz increase will be a ****ing joke.
I expect a better speed bump.
And for crissake a revised moto with a faster bus and DDR!!!
[quote]fuel to the fire
E-week article
very interesting comments on the changes within the G4 line as compared to the p2 and p3 <hr></blockquote>
I still like Geek.com's roadmap much better
The G5 archeticture was coming along, then all of the sudden a snaffoo. This happens during the development process. Th G5 was going to be their baby, and the one to get the crowd really excited. However, they don't have that now. All they have is a new case. That isn't going to sell at all. So they punted. They put faster G4s in there, as well as made a "new" iMac enclosure (notice nothing new about them, just a comeback of Snow) with slightly faster speeds. Everyone was dissapointed, including me.
But now I look back, and I begin to speculate that maybe it was because the G5 wasn't ready then. If that is in fact the case, then they would have had an additional SIX MONTHS to fix all of the bugs and start ramping up production. This seems to be the most likely of all scenerios. This is why NY sucked, and this is why SF will have both the iMac Revisited and then new G5.
BTW, I have no sources, only my gut.
<strong>Think of it like this, folks. Here we are, all of us speculating that the G5 will or will not be out there in January. Has anyone bothered to think WHY the NY expo was such a flop?? Let me give you an idea...
The G5 archeticture was coming along, then all of the sudden a snaffoo. This happens during the development process. Th G5 was going to be their baby, and the one to get the crowd really excited. However, they don't have that now. All they have is a new case. That isn't going to sell at all. So they punted. They put faster G4s in there, as well as made a "new" iMac enclosure (notice nothing new about them, just a comeback of Snow) with slightly faster speeds. Everyone was dissapointed, including me.
But now I look back, and I begin to speculate that maybe it was because the G5 wasn't ready then. If that is in fact the case, then they would have had an additional SIX MONTHS to fix all of the bugs and start ramping up production. This seems to be the most likely of all scenerios. This is why NY sucked, and this is why SF will have both the iMac Revisited and then new G5.
BTW, I have no sources, only my gut.
no, NY sucked because everyone was expecting much too much and it wasn't realistic for that moment.
I doubt the G5 was ever meant to be released there.
[qb]Question
Some where I read that from start to finish it takes 50-60 days to manufacture microprocessors. Ass-u-me the Register article is true, then the first volume production G5's will be ready to ship when......about the end of Jan. right. Please correct me if I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.<hr></blockquote>
60 days is a pretty good general guess at the minimum amount of cycle time for a processor witht that many metal levels. Maybe even a little more.
[quote]Any one know what ultrascalar means?<hr></blockquote>
Never heard of it in regards to general architecture. A group from Yale seemed to coin the phrase in an effort to design a high clock speed high issue width processor. Usually you make a tradeoff in IPC for clockspeed. Performance = IPC x Clockspeed. Ultrascalar in this context would be a processor that could greatly increase both it seems.
[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: Eskimo ]</p>
Then, just based on The Register's initial article(based on an email) the G5 couldn't be ready to even ship to Apple before middle to late Jan.
I'm hoping for Apollo manufactured using HiP7(0.13µ and SOI) and DDRsram
I'm expecting Apollo manufactured w/ SOI and the same 133MHz bus
regardless, I'll be buying in Jan.
I bet if he could he would just as in the past. I am not counting on it though, because I don't think the G5 will be ready until 3rd or 4th quarter of 2002.
Hope I'm completely wrong, but I'll still be happy with whatever computer I buy in Jan.
<strong>
no, NY sucked because everyone was expecting much too much and it wasn't realistic for that moment.
I doubt the G5 was ever meant to be released there.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Isn't that what's happening now? As I gather, everybody here seems to have argued out basically 3 scenarios that will happen powermacwise.
1. No G5, G4 topping out at 1gig. Mobo w/ DDR.
2. Apollo 1Ghz, 1.2Ghz, 1.4 Ghz. Dual 1.2 and 1.4 if fabs are good. Mobo w/DDR & 1394b.
3. G5 1.2Ghz, 1.4 Ghz, 1.6Ghz. Mobo w/ DDR, 1394b/400Mhz bus/RapidIO/etc.
The majority consensus seems to be that #3 either will happen or needs to happen or Apple is DOA. Granted that #1 would indeed be a disappointment, if G5's don't appear (my bet is March with 10.2), what's so bad about #2?
The dual 800 is a damn fine machine, and unless you want to talk about rendering, or computing the hypernegativegravometricfulx of a twinkee in a black hole, or getting 11 billion fps in Quake3, I would stack a dual 1.2Ghz Apollo G4 against a P4 2.0/2/4 any day. I have worked on a P4 1.8. Guess what? Windows still sucks. It only sucks faster. It doesn't bother me that we aren't neck and neck with the P4. I think PMQS's are fast and I love 10.1.
I don't know when the G5's will be out, but I'm pretty sure that when they do life will be good. I would rather have them come out after MWSF and be perfect than rushing out a G4.5 or a G5 celeron. (God forbid that a computer maker that has less than 5% market doesn't have the fastest os/processor of all time, all the time.) Until then, I think some people need to ease up on Apple. It's not like they're sitting around the boardroom table playing cards waiting for Mot/IBM to plod along. They are doing the best they can.
Constructive/creative G5 discussion is great, but if they are a no show, I hope this doesn't turn into the Apple sucks board. (At least no more than normal!
I'm done.
G4 iMacs and PowerMac G5s at MWSF.
Steve's opening quote:
"We want to start this year with an even bigger bang than we had last year, and we're going to do a leapfrog in design and performance."
<strong>
I don't know when the G5's will be out, but I'm pretty sure that when they do life will be good. I would rather have them come out after MWSF and be perfect than rushing out a G4.5 or a G5 celeron. (God forbid that a computer maker that has less than 5% market doesn't have the fastest os/processor of all time, all the time.) Until then, I think some people need to ease up on Apple. It's not like they're sitting around the boardroom table playing cards waiting for Mot/IBM to plod along. They are doing the best they can.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You make a very valid point. I have been a die hard fan(atic?) about the Mac ever since its introduction in 1984. I still have one of those 128K machines. And guess what, it still works. Does it have the bells and whistles of the current line? No. Why? Because we moved ahead. And we will continue to move ahead.
What we need to do as a community is stand beside our platform of choice, no matter what sh*t comes out or what blessings are bestowed. We ought to be loyal. And bashing our favorite company just looks bad for the rest of us.
I hope that the G5 comes out in January. I hope that the G4 is in the iMac. However, if those don't happen, sure I am going to be disappointed. I will not begin saying that Apple sucks, because what alternative do I have; Windows??
(P.S. Yes, I know Linux. Unix is out there. Yes, it is a great operating system. However it was not meant to be taken such that I would forget my favorite penguin.
[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: Mike Eggleston ]</p>
<strong>I was talking to an elite beta tester who showed me his G5 that was in a sealed clear case. He said he also had a g6 coming. There may be hope for a g5 at MWSF.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And I doubt this why?
<strong>I honestly have faith in Applenut's "source", as well as Applenut himself.
G4 iMacs and PowerMac G5s at MWSF.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
As much as we go at it, I have faith in him too.
G5 at MWSF.
as far as he could see, the case was nothing special except that it was a beige pc-case
the main problem -at least back then- was the massive heat dissipation, which require(d) a big heatsink and vents. haven't we read elsewhere that the g5 was 196mm2? seems to fit...
I think that the main problem is that we have been stuck for too long with the G4..
All those speculations about the forthcoming hardware reveal that the majority of us really want to move ahead...
The computer industry moves at a very fast pace, the Peecee side have the DDR implemented in their system for way too long compared to the PowerMac.
I believe that a big part of us are just frustrated.
I expect a lot from the next event in San Francisco, the last show at New-York really let me down. And trust me, I did not have unrealistic expectation!! Just DDR and a chipset topping around 1GHZ. I do not think that a weenee 135 mhz speed bump and L3 backside cache in 6 months was something acceptable!!
And the fact is, leaks are occuring. There have been too many reports on the G5, and they all jive together, for it to be one person pulling our chains. Rumor sites are guillible but not that bad, I'm sure they do check their sources at least enough that they would know if it was the same person feeding the G5 info to every rumor site.
Added to the rumor sites, several individuals, including Applenut, have claimed knowledge of the G5's imminent release. Applenut doesn't have a history of BS here at AI.
If the G5 is on schedule to be ready by march or even April, then Jobs will announce it. He has no choice...the desktop aren't selling. Apple cannot charge so much for outdated systems...the only way they can get away with their prices is if they put the Power back in Powermacs.
The intriguing part is that it appears from the rumors that two different chips are nearly ready at Motorola: The Apollo G4, and the G5. As a pessimist, I would say that the reports on the G5 are from people who have confused it with the Apollo G4. This makes sense and it wouldn't be all that bad, since the Apollo reportedly clocks up to 1.266 GHz. Thus if we get Apollo Powermacs, they would shape up as:
GHz:
1.0
1.133
1.266
All on either a 133 or 266 MHz system bus. Not too shabby, but not groudbreaking either.
As an optimist, I suggest an alternate explanation. The Apollo is clearly designed for low power consumption and low heat generation, and supposedly low cost. It's made for tight enclosures where heat and space are limited...such as laptops--OR--a desktop without a fan that has a tight enclosure. The new iMac fits this description.
The orginal iMac used a G3 at the time when Powermacs also ran on G3s. So it would be a break from tradition for Apple to introduce a new iMac with a G3. So my guess is that the new iMac will use the Apollo G4, clocked at the above MHz listing. Apple wants the new iMac design to be revolutionary, not evolutionary--and if it ran on a 1 GHz G3 that would be nice but not very exciting. But a 1 GHz+ G4 iMac....that would be groundbreaking for Apple! Which is why I think it's going to happen.
This leaves the Powermacs in question. An Apollo imac leaves two different options for the Powermacs:
Option 1. The iMac is clocked at a single speed for all models, like the iBook:
1.0 GHz iMac Apollo
Powermac:
1.13 GHz Apollo
1.27 GHz Apollo
Dual 1.27 GHz Apollo.
Option 2: This is the more likely option, says my gut:
1 GHz Apollo iMac
1 GHz Powermac G5
1.2 GHz Powermac G5
1.4 GHz Powermac G5
Or the Powermacs clock from 1.2-1.6 GHz.
Now, back to MWNY...why was that show such a bust? There were many rumors surrounding it that suggested something big was cancelled at nearly the last minute. I thiink it was lackluster because two products, the iMac and G4 Powermac, were nearing EOL, and Apple had devoted all their resources to finishing the successors to their desktop line, planning to make the Jan. Expo count. The iMac may have been ready, but Apple didn't want to release a G4 iMac while the Powermacs still ran with G4s. So they waited:
So the optimist in me says that MWSF will bring us G4 iMac Apollos, and Powermac G5s. This lineup makes the most sense. Yes, Apple often introduces lineups that make no sense at all...but this time I suspect it's different. There are too many concurring G5 rumors swirling around the internet for me to believe they are the work of a single person--rumor sites would get suspicious if all the rumors came from people with the same or similar IPs. And most importantly, the only rumors that do conflict report Apollo G4s being introduced. But if we make a leap in judgment and believe BOTH the G5 and Apollo rumors, we get a desktop lineup from Apple both sensible and revolutionary.
I'm taking that leap and buying stock. The worst scenario is that I hold onto the stock for a few years and cash in later. But if I'm right about the desktop lineup at MWSF, then I'll be cashing in much sooner....and with the money in hand I'll have little trouble deciding how to spend it!
[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: Junkyard Dawg ]</p>