Really? I don't seem to remember anybody counting ALL the votes.
<rant>
Stupid lying media. This week, the front page of my newspaper announced, "Bush won media recount." I open the newspaper and read the article. They counted the votes in 7 different ways. Turns out that Bush only came out ahead in 3 of those 7 methods, while Gore came out ahead in 4 of them.
A statewide recount is required by Florida law in all races that have results within a 5% margin. This was never done. If the law of Florida had been followed properly, Al Gore would have come out ahead by some 171 votes. </rant>
Don't believe the media's lies. They're covering up the greatest hijack of democracy that's ever taken place. George Bush did not win that election. He is not our legitimate president.</strong><hr></blockquote>
American: Oregonian: Republican: Bush Won: Get Over It.
If you had read that article a little closer you would have seen that all the methods that Gore had been asking for were the ones that Bush won, so even if the recount HAD gone foreward, Gore would have lost. And the Supreme Court does not seem to agree with you assertions on Florida State Law, nor did most of their elected officials.
Besides, I truly do not think that Gore would have been prepared for, or able to deal with what is going on right now. He sure did not seem to help Clinton much when the embassies were bombed, or the Cole, or TWA Flight 800, or the many other terrorist attacks that occurred under Clinton/Gore's 8 year watch.
Just curious about this, but are you saying that the United States is Christian?
Mandricard
AppleOutsider</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, I was talking about the Crusades which was something Harald brought up. The Byzantine Empire was mostly Christian as was the Balkans region of Europe. The Muslims weren't stopped in Europe until they reached the gates of Vienna. Spain was also a Christian country that was invaded by the Muslims. Spain is another bit of history that still bugs bin Laden. He refers to it as "the tragedy of Andalusia". The Moors were expelled from Spain 500 years ago.
[quote] ... The event that led to the crusades was the Turkish conquest of most of Christian Asia Minor (modern Turkey). The Christian emperor in Constantinople, faced with the loss of half of his empire, appealed for help to the rude but energetic Europeans. He got it. More than he wanted, in fact... <hr></blockquote>
Are you then implying that adherents to a particular set of religious beliefs are not free to spread those beliefs? Or is it just that force should not be used when promulgating one's particular religious views? Or are you implying that Islam's rapid spread across the Middle East in the 7th through 9th centuries is somehow a special case?
I can see that not much has changed around here. Still a very liberal leaning board. Good thing it is not just a political board, I might start to get an odd view of the world around me. BTW, I am very happy to be back, and look foreward to more talking with all of you (even the Libs, Dems, Greens, and Commies). :-D
Oh and Pro-Life, Pro-Guns (esp in light of recent terrorist attacks), Christian, Pro Bush, Anti-bin Laden, Pro-Military, Pro-USA (the recent attacks were not deserved by the U.S., nor were we "asking for them"), Pro-Mac, and emerging Mac Pro.
<strong>Are you then implying that adherents to a particular set of religious beliefs are not free to spread those beliefs? Or is it just that force should not be used when promulgating one's particular religious views? Or are you implying that Islam's rapid spread across the Middle East in the 7th through 9th centuries is somehow a special case?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ummm, Islam's spread came mostly through war back then. Look at the Taliban and their current laws (based on Strict Islam). It is a crime to even talk about other religions than Islam, the penalty? DEATH. If you are islamic and convert to any other religion, penalty? DEATH. Look it up. Sudan is a good example of this, as are recent events in Afghanistan with a couple of foreign aid workers. (fortunately for them the war started or they would have also likely been put to death instead of "released" by the fleeing Taliban regime.) Islam is not about peace and love, except to other Islamic people. Anyone else is the infidel and if they do not convert they should be put to death. It is in their Koran. Look it up.
And before you say Christians are the same way, we are not. Look it up, in context.
<strong>Are you then implying that adherents to a particular set of religious beliefs are not free to spread those beliefs? Or is it just that force should not be used when promulgating one's particular religious views? Or are you implying that Islam's rapid spread across the Middle East in the 7th through 9th centuries is somehow a special case?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Harald described the Crusades as an obscene intrusion on Islam. They were not an intrusion. They were a defensive in nature. They were a response to Islam's intrusion.
As for using force to spread one's faith, I'm against it no matter who did it.
Islam is not about peace and love, except to other Islamic people.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's a little more blanket of an assertion than I'm comfortable with. Besides it's not accurate. Muslims have killed more fellow Muslims than has Israel.
<strong>That's a little more blanket of an assertion than I'm comfortable with. Besides it's not accurate. Muslims have killed more fellow Muslims than has Israel.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You are right, it was a bit more blanket than I had intended. But the base assertion I think stands. Just because they are more violent towards one another than others have been to them does not mean that the religious tenets are not as said. After all, not all Christians follow all their religious tenets as intended by Scripture either. That does not mean though that Christianity as described in the Bible is really only what is practiced by its followers. All people involved in religion are this way to some extent. After all we are only human.
I wonder though, if you put up a chart of how many Muslims were killed by Israelis vs. Muslims and and how many Israelis were killed by Muslims vs. Israelis what would that chart look like?
<strong>I can see that not much has changed around here. Still a very liberal leaning board. Good thing it is not just a political board, I might start to get an odd view of the world around me.</strong><hr></blockquote>Just to make sure I wasn't seeing things, after I read this I went back and counted Liberals/Dems vs. Conservatives/Repubs. I got about 15 on the right and about 14 on the left (it was hard to tell with some, but I put anti-Bush, Green, or liberal on the left, and conservative, libertarian, or republican on the right).
Those liberals they're everywhere! They're coming after me! See there's another one!
[quote]Ummm, Islam's spread came mostly through war back then. Look at the Taliban and their current laws (based on Strict Islam). It is a crime to even talk about other religions than Islam, the penalty? DEATH. If you are islamic and convert to any other religion, penalty? DEATH. Look it up. Sudan is a good example of this, as are recent events in Afghanistan with a couple of foreign aid workers. (fortunately for them the war started or they would have also likely been put to death instead of "released" by the fleeing Taliban regime.) Islam is not about peace and love, except to other Islamic people. Anyone else is the infidel and if they do not convert they should be put to death. It is in their Koran. Look it up<hr></blockquote>
This is FUD. Do stop spreading it. Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance. The Taliban and other extremist regimes have nothing to do with Islam, they are a shame to Islam.
Osama Bin Laden is not a Muslim. He's just an extremist fascist. Please do NOT confuse both.
Osama Bin Laden is not a Muslim.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes he is. As far as I know Islam has no means to excommunicate anybody. Bin Laden has as much right to claim to be following the Koran as anybody. He is an embarassment to many Muslims though.
Comments
<strong>
It was a belated response to the intrusion of Islam on the Christian world.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Just curious about this, but are you saying that the United States is Christian?
Mandricard
AppleOutsider
<strong>
Really? I don't seem to remember anybody counting ALL the votes.
<rant>
Stupid lying media. This week, the front page of my newspaper announced, "Bush won media recount." I open the newspaper and read the article. They counted the votes in 7 different ways. Turns out that Bush only came out ahead in 3 of those 7 methods, while Gore came out ahead in 4 of them.
A statewide recount is required by Florida law in all races that have results within a 5% margin. This was never done. If the law of Florida had been followed properly, Al Gore would have come out ahead by some 171 votes. </rant>
Don't believe the media's lies. They're covering up the greatest hijack of democracy that's ever taken place. George Bush did not win that election. He is not our legitimate president.</strong><hr></blockquote>
American: Oregonian: Republican: Bush Won: Get Over It.
If you had read that article a little closer you would have seen that all the methods that Gore had been asking for were the ones that Bush won, so even if the recount HAD gone foreward, Gore would have lost. And the Supreme Court does not seem to agree with you assertions on Florida State Law, nor did most of their elected officials.
Besides, I truly do not think that Gore would have been prepared for, or able to deal with what is going on right now. He sure did not seem to help Clinton much when the embassies were bombed, or the Cole, or TWA Flight 800, or the many other terrorist attacks that occurred under Clinton/Gore's 8 year watch.
<strong>
Just curious about this, but are you saying that the United States is Christian?
Mandricard
AppleOutsider</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, I was talking about the Crusades which was something Harald brought up. The Byzantine Empire was mostly Christian as was the Balkans region of Europe. The Muslims weren't stopped in Europe until they reached the gates of Vienna. Spain was also a Christian country that was invaded by the Muslims. Spain is another bit of history that still bugs bin Laden. He refers to it as "the tragedy of Andalusia". The Moors were expelled from Spain 500 years ago.
[quote] ... The event that led to the crusades was the Turkish conquest of most of Christian Asia Minor (modern Turkey). The Christian emperor in Constantinople, faced with the loss of half of his empire, appealed for help to the rude but energetic Europeans. He got it. More than he wanted, in fact... <hr></blockquote>
<a href="http://www.greece.org/Romiosini/fall.html"; target="_blank">Here's something</a> on the fall of Constantinople.
[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]</p>
Oh and Pro-Life, Pro-Guns (esp in light of recent terrorist attacks), Christian, Pro Bush, Anti-bin Laden, Pro-Military, Pro-USA (the recent attacks were not deserved by the U.S., nor were we "asking for them"), Pro-Mac, and emerging Mac Pro.
<strong>Are you then implying that adherents to a particular set of religious beliefs are not free to spread those beliefs? Or is it just that force should not be used when promulgating one's particular religious views? Or are you implying that Islam's rapid spread across the Middle East in the 7th through 9th centuries is somehow a special case?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ummm, Islam's spread came mostly through war back then. Look at the Taliban and their current laws (based on Strict Islam). It is a crime to even talk about other religions than Islam, the penalty? DEATH. If you are islamic and convert to any other religion, penalty? DEATH. Look it up. Sudan is a good example of this, as are recent events in Afghanistan with a couple of foreign aid workers. (fortunately for them the war started or they would have also likely been put to death instead of "released" by the fleeing Taliban regime.) Islam is not about peace and love, except to other Islamic people. Anyone else is the infidel and if they do not convert they should be put to death. It is in their Koran. Look it up.
And before you say Christians are the same way, we are not. Look it up, in context.
<strong>Are you then implying that adherents to a particular set of religious beliefs are not free to spread those beliefs? Or is it just that force should not be used when promulgating one's particular religious views? Or are you implying that Islam's rapid spread across the Middle East in the 7th through 9th centuries is somehow a special case?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Harald described the Crusades as an obscene intrusion on Islam. They were not an intrusion. They were a defensive in nature. They were a response to Islam's intrusion.
As for using force to spread one's faith, I'm against it no matter who did it.
[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]</p>
<strong>
Islam is not about peace and love, except to other Islamic people.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's a little more blanket of an assertion than I'm comfortable with. Besides it's not accurate. Muslims have killed more fellow Muslims than has Israel.
<strong>That's a little more blanket of an assertion than I'm comfortable with. Besides it's not accurate. Muslims have killed more fellow Muslims than has Israel.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You are right, it was a bit more blanket than I had intended. But the base assertion I think stands. Just because they are more violent towards one another than others have been to them does not mean that the religious tenets are not as said. After all, not all Christians follow all their religious tenets as intended by Scripture either. That does not mean though that Christianity as described in the Bible is really only what is practiced by its followers. All people involved in religion are this way to some extent. After all we are only human.
I wonder though, if you put up a chart of how many Muslims were killed by Israelis vs. Muslims and and how many Israelis were killed by Muslims vs. Israelis what would that chart look like?
[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: NoahJ ]</p>
Am a civil servant, so no political affiliation allowed
<strong>I can see that not much has changed around here. Still a very liberal leaning board. Good thing it is not just a political board, I might start to get an odd view of the world around me.</strong><hr></blockquote>Just to make sure I wasn't seeing things, after I read this I went back and counted Liberals/Dems vs. Conservatives/Repubs. I got about 15 on the right and about 14 on the left (it was hard to tell with some, but I put anti-Bush, Green, or liberal on the left, and conservative, libertarian, or republican on the right).
Those liberals they're everywhere! They're coming after me! See there's another one!
<img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
<strong>Those liberals they're everywhere! They're coming after me! See there's another one!
<img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote> Hmmmm, your paranoia will not save you young padawan.
(Maybe they just post a lot more in the threads I read. However I did not do a formal name count to post. Oh well.)
Libertarian
Liberal Marxist. Bring it on.
This is FUD. Do stop spreading it. Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance. The Taliban and other extremist regimes have nothing to do with Islam, they are a shame to Islam.
Osama Bin Laden is not a Muslim. He's just an extremist fascist. Please do NOT confuse both.
<strong>
Osama Bin Laden is not a Muslim.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes he is. As far as I know Islam has no means to excommunicate anybody. Bin Laden has as much right to claim to be following the Koran as anybody. He is an embarassment to many Muslims though.
Dem/Green
eh? <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
anyhoo.
USA
Individualist (borderline Objectivist)
And I've got to say, I'm disturbed by how many people around here seem to base their opinions of the President of mass-email forwards...