Great- the more you say it's not gonna happen the most like it will, based on your track record.
Keep naysaying it, please.
As usual, you can?t comprehend posts unless they are crying toward an absolute rhetoric. Nothing in my post stated it won?t happen, just that nothing so far has shown that Apple will support it, just as you ignore my twice written desire for it to happen. This is your cue to state how Apple has been on the BDA since 2002, but will fail to notice what they?ve contributed.
You don?t have to read between the lines, just read the lines and then try to understand them as best as you can. We can use smaller words and shorter sentences if you need us to.
They put it there to give people the option to use it. That does not mean many people will use it.
People like you might not use it but others will use it. Apple delayed it for long until they realized that it makes sense to put it in MBPs. They must have had some definite clue about it.
Mostly this is Sony's influence on the industry. For example in the professional video industry. Most camera manufacturers and systems have moved to hard drives and solid state storage. Sony is the last major manufacturer with camera systems that use physical storage. Its because Sony wants to continue selling tapes and recordable BR discs.
In the long run this is a loosing strategy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2
I work in IT and move around a lot of data day to day and optical is the very worst way to move or show data there is. The only reason it's hanging around today, even though there are many more efficient methods available, is because of these same commercial interests. It has the single advantage that it can be put in a box and sold, with lots of jazzy extra stuff (like that mentioned in this article) plugged into it so as to make you believe you are getting value for your 30 or 40 dollars.
Cassettes tapes did successfully replace 8 tracks. Cassettes offered clear advantage to 8 tracks and vinyl records, but were not expensive. In the late 70's early 80's cassette tapes were the only option for portable music.
Blu-ray primary advantage is a slightly better picture and slightly better sound at a premium price. Today Blu-ray competes directly with OTA HD broadcast, HD cable, HD video on demand, standard DVD, downloading, streaming, iPods and phones.
Few of these alternatives existed when DVD became mainstream. Now that they exist, Blu-ray has to compete directly against them, it will be impossible for any future physical medium to have the success DVD has had.
Nothing that you mention even equals or compares to Blu-ray especially sound wise. It more like all that you mention is competing amongst themselves. Blu-ray is in a class of its own. The picture is better than HD cable or broadcast. A better analogy is when HiFi records replaced old 78's in the 1950. Once poeple get used to the format they will not go back to DVD. Blu-ray will eventually be the format of choice with all the new HDTVs. The price keeps dropping monthly -both machines and discs.
Actually when I get a new MacBook Pro I likely will use it. But I rarely see anyone take the SD card out of their camera.
The SD slot replaced the Express Card slot. Apple less than 1% of customers made use of the Express Card slot. Apple knew people would be extremely upset if they dropped the Express Card slot and left nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by holywarrior007
People like you might not use it but others will use it. Apple delayed it for long until they realized that it makes sense to put it in MBPs. They must have had some definite clue about it.
Yeah I agree with you. The licensing process is complex which could make these drives a bit more expensive. But I think this is no excuse. These could definitely be provided as an option if Apple isn't comfortable about including them in the current price range.
Quote:
Originally Posted by holywarrior007
But Blu-ray format is already making a very impressive start and the DVD sale is falling. I bet it would be in notebooks in 2010. But 2011 would be too far and I would never like it. How much would a Blu-ray drive cost? Sony and Dell are already shipping these in their products and it doesn't look like that it will send the prices of MBPs over the moon. Remember the 15'' MBPs aren't cheap anyway.
Assuming Apple wants to eventually support blu-ray, I don't think it's the cost of the drive, or even the cost of the license, that's holding them up. It's more likely the technical requirements of the license that's causing the delay. If you read up on the draconian measure MS put into Vista to make the content providers happy you'll get some idea of what is require and the impact to users. It requires that the entire data path, from the disc to the display, be protected so the signal can't be intercepted and recorded. So the hardware (drive, video card, display connector, and display) need to support the encryption. Hopefully, DisplayPort was the last missing piece of the hardware puzzle. And then the OS also needs to support the protection methods, too. Maybe (hopefully) Snow Leopard will fill that gap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JavaCowboy
Here's a question that I have: Is it possible for a hardware or software manufacturer to include access to a Blu-Ray drive without the media? That is, could I potentially buy a Mac with a Blu-Ray drive that is only usable for file storage but that doesn't read Blu-Ray movie disks? Or does the whole kit and caboodle have to be licensed as a "bag of hurt"?
Just curious. I'm sure many OS X and Linux users would love to be able to use Blu-Ray exclusively for file storage.
It's probably possible, but can you imagine the marketing nightmare it would cause and how confused people would be? Record numbers of Macs would get returned by people who didn't bother to read the complete spec before purchasing their new computer thinking they'd be able to watch movies on the blu-ray drive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell
How many people commonly use SD slots? Annecdotally most people I see just plug the camera into the computer and never remove the SD card. If most people never remove the card, it's not so crucial to have the slot.
But most people didn't take the card out of the camera because they didn't have a card reader, either because it was a hassle or carry around or because they didn't want to spend the money on it. Much easier to just use the cable that came with your camera. But as soon as they realize they don't even need to keep the cable around, because now you have an SD slot, I think they'll start using that instead. Especially when they notice how much faster they can import their photos vs directly from the camera.
Already on the way out. The sooner we're rid of that extra crap the better. More Discs in boxes piling up in the corner of your house somewhere. Too funny.
By the time Blu Ray truly goes mainstream (it still hasn't), we'll be getting all our HD content online, and then you can transfer it to any device as you wish. Wirelessly even.
Agree - Disk drives take up space and are rarely used. The sooner they are gone the better.
Blu-Ray is coming to Mac computers, SJ himself said so. It's just a matter of time.
It was around March we saw the first 9.5mm BRD appear in notebooks. Still tray-loading, not slot-loading, very slow and very expensive, even for BR readers, but they did come to market. It shouldn?t be too long before the slot-loaders hit market.
As usual, you can’t comprehend posts unless they are crying toward an absolute rhetoric. Nothing in my post stated it won’t happen, just that nothing so far has shown that Apple will support it, just as you ignore my twice written desire for it to happen. This is your cue to state how Apple has been on the BDA since 2002, but will fail to notice what they’ve contributed.
And exactly what showed us that Apple would support an SD card slot, matte screen on the 17" MBP, the return of a small form 13" Pro laptop and MMS texting on the iPhone- all of which you naysayed?
Nothing in your posts about Blu-ray is supportive in bringing it to Apple - logic would therefor infer that you think it will not happen. Keep telling us all your reasons why it's not in Apple's business model, etc- Tell us why it's not needed again and again- that way we'll getting sooner.
Well that's the whole point- why do I want to downgrade an HD recoding to DVD specs? That defeats the whole purpose of recording in HD.
Not entirely true. You can burn HD onto a DVD, it's basically AVCHD. Not a full movie, but for a family thing or short films, it works fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell
Mostly this is Sony's influence on the industry. For example in the professional video industry. Most camera manufacturers and systems have moved to hard drives and solid state storage. Sony is the last major manufacturer with camera systems that use physical storage. Its because Sony wants to continue selling tapes and recordable BR discs.
Sony has been offering solid state recording for at least a couple years now, and had hard drive recording for longer than that. Panasonic jumped the gun with their P2, which uses the now abandoned PC Card format so you no longer have the benefit of being able to just insert it into your computer. Sony only needed to wait a year or so and released a format that uses Express Card, which is what notebook computers now support natively.
You are right BR quality is better, but not that much better. You are giving the average consumer too much credit in their understanding for quality. The far majority of people will take convenience and cheap over quality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud
Nothing that you mention even equals or compares to Blu-ray especially sound wise. It more like all that you mention is competing amongst themselves. Blu-ray is in a class of its own. The picture is better than HD cable or broadcast. A better analogy is when HiFi records replaced old 78's in the 1950. Once poeple get used to the format they will not go back to DVD. Blu-ray will eventually be the format of choice with all the new HDTVs. The price keeps dropping monthly -both machines and discs.
How many people commonly use SD slots? Annecdotally most people I see just plug the camera into the computer and never remove the SD card. If most people never remove the card, it's not so crucial to have the slot.
I don't think Apple added the SD card slot for the stated reasons. No, I agree with many others that this is Apple trying to help the physical media along. I mean, why else would they tell you how to boot from SD? I think that when SDXC is out(unfortunately not compatible with current SD slots) it will be fast enough, cheap enough, and have enough storage. 2TB seems like more than will ever be needed for movies. And having one media to be standard across the lineup, from HD movies to camera cards, from cell cards(micro SD, but those all come with adapters) to music, SD could hold more in a smaller space. Who doesn't want that? Here's an article that is about this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud
That's like saying casettes will not have the success of 8 Tracks. Blu-ray is the format of the future and will be around for a long time coming. Screen resolution has long passed DVD specs. Apple needs to get on board now- the train has long left the station.
While I think that SD will kill all optical, I think that Apple needs to add BD support. I mean, how hard can it be to add BD support to DVD player(or add DVD/BD playback in iTunes X, allowing Apple TV to access it)? Then Apple can then sell overpriced BD drives as BTO in MBP and MP. And of course we all know that Apple likes large profit margins... I think that ought to guarantee BD coming to the Mac soon enough I expect it in 10.7(Lion?).
I'm talking about professional video cameras, not consumer. Most of Sony's professional cameras use HDCAM tapes or BR discs.
Panasonic's P2 system is very successful, its in fact the first Panasonic camera system that has been as successfully adopted across the industry as its been. I just recently worked with the AJ-HPX3000. A great camera.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM
Sony has been offering solid state recording for at least a couple years now, and had hard drive recording for longer than that. Panasonic jumped the gun with their P2, which used the now abandoned PC Card format so you no longer have the benefit of being able to just insert it into your computer. Sony only needed to wait a year or so and released a format that uses Express Card, which is what notebook computers now support natively.
It was around March we saw the first 9.5mm BRD appear in notebooks. Still tray-loading, not slot-loading, very slow and very expensive, even for BR readers, but they did come to market. It shouldn?t be too long before the slot-loaders hit market.
Apple needs to get on board like they did with DVD. I mean- you can create HD movies in iMovie HD yet we can't burn them on a Blu-ray? Does that make sense?
We might see it at some point, but I do not see it in the near future. "Pros" can create BDs on a Mac using Adobe Encore, and you can burn them too (using an external drive or by adding a BD-Writer to a Mac Pro). I export private HD movies edited in iMovie HD to Divx HD and burn them to regular DVDs, this approach is a lot cheaper as BD-media is still quite expensive and the quality is great.
Apple is obviously giving up on optical media. iDVD and DVD Studio Pro have not seen significant updates since more than 4 years. I guess we will rather see a full line-up of MBPs without any optical drives than we will see MBPs with BD drives.
You are right BR quality is better, but not that much better. You are giving the average consumer too much credit in their understanding for quality. The far majority of people will take convenience and cheap over quality.
But Apple doesn't support and encourage cheap quality. After all, they distinguish themselves with others precisely on the same point.
Comments
Great- the more you say it's not gonna happen the most like it will, based on your track record.
Keep naysaying it, please.
As usual, you can?t comprehend posts unless they are crying toward an absolute rhetoric. Nothing in my post stated it won?t happen, just that nothing so far has shown that Apple will support it, just as you ignore my twice written desire for it to happen. This is your cue to state how Apple has been on the BDA since 2002, but will fail to notice what they?ve contributed.
You don?t have to read between the lines, just read the lines and then try to understand them as best as you can. We can use smaller words and shorter sentences if you need us to.
Really? Then why did Apple put it there? Apple must obviously thinks its important, even if you don't.
Great- the more you say it's not gonna happen the most like it will, based on your track record.
Keep naysaying it, please.
I also agree with you
They put it there to give people the option to use it. That does not mean many people will use it.
People like you might not use it but others will use it. Apple delayed it for long until they realized that it makes sense to put it in MBPs. They must have had some definite clue about it.
In the long run this is a loosing strategy.
I work in IT and move around a lot of data day to day and optical is the very worst way to move or show data there is. The only reason it's hanging around today, even though there are many more efficient methods available, is because of these same commercial interests. It has the single advantage that it can be put in a box and sold, with lots of jazzy extra stuff (like that mentioned in this article) plugged into it so as to make you believe you are getting value for your 30 or 40 dollars.
Cassettes tapes did successfully replace 8 tracks. Cassettes offered clear advantage to 8 tracks and vinyl records, but were not expensive. In the late 70's early 80's cassette tapes were the only option for portable music.
Blu-ray primary advantage is a slightly better picture and slightly better sound at a premium price. Today Blu-ray competes directly with OTA HD broadcast, HD cable, HD video on demand, standard DVD, downloading, streaming, iPods and phones.
Few of these alternatives existed when DVD became mainstream. Now that they exist, Blu-ray has to compete directly against them, it will be impossible for any future physical medium to have the success DVD has had.
Nothing that you mention even equals or compares to Blu-ray especially sound wise. It more like all that you mention is competing amongst themselves. Blu-ray is in a class of its own. The picture is better than HD cable or broadcast. A better analogy is when HiFi records replaced old 78's in the 1950. Once poeple get used to the format they will not go back to DVD. Blu-ray will eventually be the format of choice with all the new HDTVs. The price keeps dropping monthly -both machines and discs.
The SD slot replaced the Express Card slot. Apple less than 1% of customers made use of the Express Card slot. Apple knew people would be extremely upset if they dropped the Express Card slot and left nothing.
People like you might not use it but others will use it. Apple delayed it for long until they realized that it makes sense to put it in MBPs. They must have had some definite clue about it.
Yeah I agree with you. The licensing process is complex which could make these drives a bit more expensive. But I think this is no excuse. These could definitely be provided as an option if Apple isn't comfortable about including them in the current price range.
But Blu-ray format is already making a very impressive start and the DVD sale is falling. I bet it would be in notebooks in 2010. But 2011 would be too far and I would never like it. How much would a Blu-ray drive cost? Sony and Dell are already shipping these in their products and it doesn't look like that it will send the prices of MBPs over the moon. Remember the 15'' MBPs aren't cheap anyway.
Assuming Apple wants to eventually support blu-ray, I don't think it's the cost of the drive, or even the cost of the license, that's holding them up. It's more likely the technical requirements of the license that's causing the delay. If you read up on the draconian measure MS put into Vista to make the content providers happy you'll get some idea of what is require and the impact to users. It requires that the entire data path, from the disc to the display, be protected so the signal can't be intercepted and recorded. So the hardware (drive, video card, display connector, and display) need to support the encryption. Hopefully, DisplayPort was the last missing piece of the hardware puzzle. And then the OS also needs to support the protection methods, too. Maybe (hopefully) Snow Leopard will fill that gap.
Here's a question that I have: Is it possible for a hardware or software manufacturer to include access to a Blu-Ray drive without the media? That is, could I potentially buy a Mac with a Blu-Ray drive that is only usable for file storage but that doesn't read Blu-Ray movie disks? Or does the whole kit and caboodle have to be licensed as a "bag of hurt"?
Just curious. I'm sure many OS X and Linux users would love to be able to use Blu-Ray exclusively for file storage.
It's probably possible, but can you imagine the marketing nightmare it would cause and how confused people would be? Record numbers of Macs would get returned by people who didn't bother to read the complete spec before purchasing their new computer thinking they'd be able to watch movies on the blu-ray drive.
How many people commonly use SD slots? Annecdotally most people I see just plug the camera into the computer and never remove the SD card. If most people never remove the card, it's not so crucial to have the slot.
But most people didn't take the card out of the camera because they didn't have a card reader, either because it was a hassle or carry around or because they didn't want to spend the money on it. Much easier to just use the cable that came with your camera. But as soon as they realize they don't even need to keep the cable around, because now you have an SD slot, I think they'll start using that instead. Especially when they notice how much faster they can import their photos vs directly from the camera.
Blu Ray players and physical disc media?
Already on the way out. The sooner we're rid of that extra crap the better. More Discs in boxes piling up in the corner of your house somewhere. Too funny.
By the time Blu Ray truly goes mainstream (it still hasn't), we'll be getting all our HD content online, and then you can transfer it to any device as you wish. Wirelessly even.
Agree - Disk drives take up space and are rarely used. The sooner they are gone the better.
Blu-Ray is coming to Mac computers, SJ himself said so. It's just a matter of time.
It was around March we saw the first 9.5mm BRD appear in notebooks. Still tray-loading, not slot-loading, very slow and very expensive, even for BR readers, but they did come to market. It shouldn?t be too long before the slot-loaders hit market.
As usual, you can’t comprehend posts unless they are crying toward an absolute rhetoric. Nothing in my post stated it won’t happen, just that nothing so far has shown that Apple will support it, just as you ignore my twice written desire for it to happen. This is your cue to state how Apple has been on the BDA since 2002, but will fail to notice what they’ve contributed.
And exactly what showed us that Apple would support an SD card slot, matte screen on the 17" MBP, the return of a small form 13" Pro laptop and MMS texting on the iPhone- all of which you naysayed?
Nothing in your posts about Blu-ray is supportive in bringing it to Apple - logic would therefor infer that you think it will not happen. Keep telling us all your reasons why it's not in Apple's business model, etc- Tell us why it's not needed again and again- that way we'll getting sooner.
Well that's the whole point- why do I want to downgrade an HD recoding to DVD specs? That defeats the whole purpose of recording in HD.
Not entirely true. You can burn HD onto a DVD, it's basically AVCHD. Not a full movie, but for a family thing or short films, it works fine.
Mostly this is Sony's influence on the industry. For example in the professional video industry. Most camera manufacturers and systems have moved to hard drives and solid state storage. Sony is the last major manufacturer with camera systems that use physical storage. Its because Sony wants to continue selling tapes and recordable BR discs.
Sony has been offering solid state recording for at least a couple years now, and had hard drive recording for longer than that. Panasonic jumped the gun with their P2, which uses the now abandoned PC Card format so you no longer have the benefit of being able to just insert it into your computer. Sony only needed to wait a year or so and released a format that uses Express Card, which is what notebook computers now support natively.
Nothing that you mention even equals or compares to Blu-ray especially sound wise. It more like all that you mention is competing amongst themselves. Blu-ray is in a class of its own. The picture is better than HD cable or broadcast. A better analogy is when HiFi records replaced old 78's in the 1950. Once poeple get used to the format they will not go back to DVD. Blu-ray will eventually be the format of choice with all the new HDTVs. The price keeps dropping monthly -both machines and discs.
How many people commonly use SD slots? Annecdotally most people I see just plug the camera into the computer and never remove the SD card. If most people never remove the card, it's not so crucial to have the slot.
I don't think Apple added the SD card slot for the stated reasons. No, I agree with many others that this is Apple trying to help the physical media along. I mean, why else would they tell you how to boot from SD? I think that when SDXC is out(unfortunately not compatible with current SD slots) it will be fast enough, cheap enough, and have enough storage. 2TB seems like more than will ever be needed for movies. And having one media to be standard across the lineup, from HD movies to camera cards, from cell cards(micro SD, but those all come with adapters) to music, SD could hold more in a smaller space. Who doesn't want that? Here's an article that is about this.
That's like saying casettes will not have the success of 8 Tracks. Blu-ray is the format of the future and will be around for a long time coming. Screen resolution has long passed DVD specs. Apple needs to get on board now- the train has long left the station.
While I think that SD will kill all optical, I think that Apple needs to add BD support. I mean, how hard can it be to add BD support to DVD player(or add DVD/BD playback in iTunes X, allowing Apple TV to access it)? Then Apple can then sell overpriced BD drives as BTO in MBP and MP. And of course we all know that Apple likes large profit margins... I think that ought to guarantee BD coming to the Mac soon enough
SG
Panasonic's P2 system is very successful, its in fact the first Panasonic camera system that has been as successfully adopted across the industry as its been. I just recently worked with the AJ-HPX3000. A great camera.
Sony has been offering solid state recording for at least a couple years now, and had hard drive recording for longer than that. Panasonic jumped the gun with their P2, which used the now abandoned PC Card format so you no longer have the benefit of being able to just insert it into your computer. Sony only needed to wait a year or so and released a format that uses Express Card, which is what notebook computers now support natively.
It was around March we saw the first 9.5mm BRD appear in notebooks. Still tray-loading, not slot-loading, very slow and very expensive, even for BR readers, but they did come to market. It shouldn?t be too long before the slot-loaders hit market.
I think there is an option of slot-loading BRD on Dell's notebook. You can configure with Studio 15 series. Check it out on Dell's website.
Apple needs to get on board like they did with DVD. I mean- you can create HD movies in iMovie HD yet we can't burn them on a Blu-ray? Does that make sense?
We might see it at some point, but I do not see it in the near future. "Pros" can create BDs on a Mac using Adobe Encore, and you can burn them too (using an external drive or by adding a BD-Writer to a Mac Pro). I export private HD movies edited in iMovie HD to Divx HD and burn them to regular DVDs, this approach is a lot cheaper as BD-media is still quite expensive and the quality is great.
Apple is obviously giving up on optical media. iDVD and DVD Studio Pro have not seen significant updates since more than 4 years. I guess we will rather see a full line-up of MBPs without any optical drives than we will see MBPs with BD drives.
You are right BR quality is better, but not that much better. You are giving the average consumer too much credit in their understanding for quality. The far majority of people will take convenience and cheap over quality.
But Apple doesn't support and encourage cheap quality. After all, they distinguish themselves with others precisely on the same point.