Look at it all in perspective though. The IDE XCode isn't even close to free when you consider the extra couple $1000 you paid for the Apple hardware. On the surface it seems like a good deal, but break it down and I can buy a PC, Windows and Visual Studio for far less than a Mac with "free" XCode. I'm not arguing which one is better, etc.. just saying the price argument is flawed.
Considering you can get a MacMini for $599 and it is more than powerful enough to run XCode and develop iPhone apps, your statement is completely false.
Actually a lot of people CHOOSE to use a windows mobile phone on their own accord. They like being able to CHOOSE things on their own, where as with the iphone, Apple CHOOSES which apps are too naughty for your wittle eyes.
The iphone is nice, but there are countless people that will attest their love for windows mobile who have COME FROM the iphone.
This discussion will head into a windows mobile vs iphone direction, I can feel it.
I don't think they'll be a whole lot of folks porting iPhone apps to Windows Mobile.
There's only one thing worse than using a PoS OS like Windows. That's using a PoS OS with a small market share like Windows Mobile.
No, this is a smart move for MS. There are -many- developers that will port their apps, because the app store is a business for them. A lot of these guys already are working on porting to Pre and also to Android. It makes great fiscal sense to do this.
HA!!! A better browsing experience that an Iphone. This guy must be living in an alternate universe. WinMo 6.5 browser is horrible and works like a piece of dog turd. The Iphone has the best browser around, even blackberry users admit that, this guy is living in a Microsoft Dream world if he thinks this.
I laughed out loud when I read that little tidbit. Microsoft is a laggard now and they have to admit it!!!!
No, this is a smart move for MS. There are -many- developers that will port their apps, because the app store is a business for them. A lot of these guys already are working on porting to Pre and also to Android. It makes great fiscal sense to do this.
I think the most you can say is that it could make fiscal sense for some apps in some cases. Porting and maintaining a port is going to require an investment by the developer. Whether that investment will be justified by the return is an open question at best.
Look at it all in perspective though. The IDE XCode isn't even close to free when you consider the extra couple $1000 you paid for the Apple hardware. On the surface it seems like a good deal, but break it down and I can buy a PC, Windows and Visual Studio for far less than a Mac with "free" XCode. I'm not arguing which one is better, etc.. just saying the price argument is flawed.
Interesting. I read through this thread and here's what I noticed from chronster and dev012:
Apple restricts apps
iPhone doesn't have Flash
Macs are expensive
Anyone notice the MS marketing strategy in this? I'm not going to make unfounded accusation, but if you are being paid for this, enjoy those MS paychecks while you can. Congress is working on making it illegal to pay people to plant marketing data in blogs and forums.
People who realize it makes no sense to pay 2x more for a macbook when they could get a PC that does everything they need.
Unless they want to enjoy the system too. Additionally, with the Mac, they can run Windows on it when they like and have both platforms available for development.
I can develop just fine on my $499 Dell Latitude that came with Vista. Add VS to that and you're way under the price of the cheapest Macbook. Just because there are PC's that are more expensive doesn't mean that's required to develop in VS. For Apple though it is required because they don't offer any affordable models.
Oh sure, I could develop using a Mac Mini just fine as well. However, if you work on large software projects, the extra time you spend recompiling with a slow computer on a daily basis is far more expensive than the extra cost of a faster computer.
Bottom to top compile time for the current project I'm working on:
2.0 GHz Mac Mini w/ 2 GB RAM: 15 minutes
2 x 2.8 GHz Mac Pro w/ 4 GB RAM: 3 minutes
The Windows developers report similar speed differences between those with newer (faster) machines and those with older (slower) machines.
So really, that faster computer more than pays for itself with the increased productivity over the 3 or so years you use it.
As far as supporting "all the versions" of WM: It's not as hard as you think. Some of the new stuff with 6.5 might not easily be backward compatible with 6.1 or 6.0, but what I've found is if it works on 6.1, it tends to work all the way back to 5.0. I've never had an issue running something designed for 5.0 on 6.1.
Nah, pretty much ever windows mobile phone feels clunky so the user experience is pretty much the same LOL
Honestly though, the differences between phones and the experiences ARE just like computers, where the newest ones are always faster and give a better experience.
I can attest to your compatibility statement, everything, aside from TCPMP worked from WM5 to WM6.1. However, I believe MS stated the App Store would only be available on 6.1 and up.
As far as different experiences, I can't really agree. As far as WM goes, I've used the OS since it was 5.0 with my MPX220. I've also used the HTC 8125, HTC 8525, HTC 8925, Pantech Duo, and Samsung Blackjack. All were very sluggish. And after a few months with them, they became even slower. It was almost a daily routine hard resetting my phone for it to function. The HTC 8925 was the last straw. It was the most powerful smart phone I had to date, and It still ran no faster than my 5.0 powered phones. I give HTC props for creating very innovative designs, and phones that last pretty well. I'm also glad to see they're exploring Android pretty heavily now, which I think has blown WM out of the water since 1.0.
I watched a video of 6.5 online, and it still looks sluggish. If the rumors are true that 7.0 is a recoded, built from the ground up OS, they may be back in the game, but there's no excuse for putting out garbage for the better part of a decade prior to this.
The reason Apple's App store works so well is that it comes already installed in the phone, and there are only 3 phones these applications can run on. There's really not too many compatibility issues as of yet, aside from maybe the GPS Apps on the 1st generation. Also, Apple hasn't left their first generation users in the dust. They too have been given the 3.0 update. Albeit, it may not offer all of the 3.0 updates, it was still updated to fix bugs and offer a few cool features. My WM phones get 1 update, and every time I was left with more bugs and headaches than what I started with. I think anyone with an HTC 8925 can attest to that!
Well, if the Windows platform is so great, why do they have to try and urge developers to port apps from the Apple Mobile platform? If Windows 6.5 is so good, the developers will just flock to it on their own. Did Apple mention anything about porting Windows Mobile apps to the iPhone. Hell, no. They just put out the SDK and let the developers do their thing. Microsoft always seems like it's on the defense and trying to take stuff from Apple. Why is Apple even being mentioned by Microsoft if their WinMo platform is so large and strong? It's been around a long, long time and if anyone wanted to develop apps for WinMo, they certainly would have done so by now. Since the WinMo platform can use Flash games and apps, they've already got thousands of those, so why worry about what Apple has.
Has Apple not proved to everyone that design/production/control of their hardware and design/production/control of their software is the recipe for a gratifying user experience and thereby company success?
Yes, competition is good...have at it, Google, Symbian, MS, etc., but don't vilify Apple for a proven modus operandi.
If Apple were a company to rest on its laurels we would still be using OS9, the iPod Classic, the original Shuffle, the first gen iPhone and a "plastic" white laptop.
I'm not one to belly ache about what Apple is not doing. I have great confidence the Apple PHD's will continue to improve their product offerings and stay well ahead of the competition.
Apple, generally and Steve Jobs specifically, have been able to corral the nerds/engineers into providing tech that actually works and is a pleasure to work on! Unlike MS, HP, Dell, Nokia, Symbian, Sony, LG, Motorola, Gateway, etc., etc., which is a nightmare to work on compared to the Apple products.
And don't forget, the day after iPhone OS 3.0 was released to the public, MILLIONS of iPhones upgraded to it, so developers immediately could use the latest API's and know they could sell their 3.0-specific apps (if they didn't want to support the older version) right away. Only if their app required new hardware capabilities, then they would need to wait for sales of the latest iPhone.
Microsoft has publicly announced that there is no upgrade path for existing phones for v6.5 or v7.0 (which is planned to be released less than six months later). So developers have the additional hurdle of having an install base of zero if they target v6.5 or v7.0 with their apps.
Microsoft may have, in total, more phones running a version of wince, but it's incredibly hard for developers to actually support all the different models of phones, each with a slightly different revision of wince, with different screens, processors, buttons and RAM. You aren't just coding for wince, you need to develop for each of the actual phones you want to support.
And don't forget, the day after iPhone OS 3.0 was released to the public, MILLIONS of iPhones upgraded to it, so developers immediately could use the latest API's and know they could sell their 3.0-specific apps (if they didn't want to support the older version) right away. Only if their app required new hardware capabilities, then they would need to wait for sales of the latest iPhone.
Microsoft has publicly announced that there is no upgrade path for existing phones for v6.5 or v7.0 (which is planned to be released less than six months later). So developers have the additional hurdle of having an install base of zero if they target v6.5 or v7.0 with their apps.
Microsoft may have, in total, more phones running a version of wince, but it's incredibly hard for developers to actually support all the different models of phones, each with a slightly different revision of wince, with different screens, processors, buttons and RAM. You aren't just coding for wince, you need to develop for each of the actual phones you want to support.
Good points. If I was a developer I would steer clear of anything MS offers! It's a crap organization that produces crap time and time again.
Interesting. I read through this thread and here's what I noticed from chronster and dev012:
Apple restricts apps
iPhone doesn't have Flash
Macs are expensive
Anyone notice the MS marketing strategy in this? I'm not going to make unfounded accusation, but if you are being paid for this, enjoy those MS paychecks while you can. Congress is working on making it illegal to pay people to plant marketing data in blogs and forums.
Welcome to the forums. So far you haven't really added anything decent to the thread, but I'll cross my fingers for you and hope you stick around past 20 posts. The more the merrier.
By the way this thread just earned me enough to buy my family rice for dinner. We fight off starvation one more day. I'll be back tomorrow to collect my paycheck when I start my "Apple eats babies" thread.
But seriously, grow up. Use some intelligence and discuss what's said instead of brushing it off with name calling. That'll get you more respect from everyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thompr
Dorky websites & quick flash games. Exactly the previous poster's point. Is that the best you got?
Thompson
He said they were dying out but they aren't. Why would they? Sure they're dorky, but plenty of DORKIER things are still around and thriving ::cough twitter cough::
Even if you're not into flash games, what about hulu? What about the fact that flash is so common these days? Surely you can speak to that point. I hope Apple does allow flash on the iphone. With that browser, I think it really would work great and people would get a lot out of it (even if they don't play the dorky games ;P)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino
couldn't get a job astroturfing for the health insurance industry, eh?
I think you misread my post. I wasn't calling him ignorant, just saying he was throwing the word "ignorant" around a lot. Maybe I should edit.
It runs on countless devices, which amounts to a staggered, variable user experience, completely out of Microsoft's control. There are other issues, such as MS not knowing how to design UIs, but that's a different matter.
Is Microsoft's purchase of Danger going to change this? Is the real intent of this document to provide information to port to a Zune Phone with a consistent hardware configuration?
Has Apple not proved to everyone that design/production/control of their hardware and design/production/control of their software is the recipe for a gratifying user experience and thereby company success?
Yes, competition is good...have at it, Google, Symbian, MS, etc., but don't vilify Apple for a proven modus operandi.
QFT.
Apple certainly HAS proven that. But it's better for some to go on denying it, and when one of the also-rans manages to innovate, inpsire, and otherwise show some shred of originality, they'll be the first ones to say "see? told ya." Which goes to pove that even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Comments
Look at it all in perspective though. The IDE XCode isn't even close to free when you consider the extra couple $1000 you paid for the Apple hardware. On the surface it seems like a good deal, but break it down and I can buy a PC, Windows and Visual Studio for far less than a Mac with "free" XCode. I'm not arguing which one is better, etc.. just saying the price argument is flawed.
Considering you can get a MacMini for $599 and it is more than powerful enough to run XCode and develop iPhone apps, your statement is completely false.
Actually a lot of people CHOOSE to use a windows mobile phone on their own accord. They like being able to CHOOSE things on their own, where as with the iphone, Apple CHOOSES which apps are too naughty for your wittle eyes.
The iphone is nice, but there are countless people that will attest their love for windows mobile who have COME FROM the iphone.
This discussion will head into a windows mobile vs iphone direction, I can feel it.
Be gone troll.
I don't think they'll be a whole lot of folks porting iPhone apps to Windows Mobile.
There's only one thing worse than using a PoS OS like Windows. That's using a PoS OS with a small market share like Windows Mobile.
No, this is a smart move for MS. There are -many- developers that will port their apps, because the app store is a business for them. A lot of these guys already are working on porting to Pre and also to Android. It makes great fiscal sense to do this.
I laughed out loud when I read that little tidbit. Microsoft is a laggard now and they have to admit it!!!!
No, this is a smart move for MS. There are -many- developers that will port their apps, because the app store is a business for them. A lot of these guys already are working on porting to Pre and also to Android. It makes great fiscal sense to do this.
I think the most you can say is that it could make fiscal sense for some apps in some cases. Porting and maintaining a port is going to require an investment by the developer. Whether that investment will be justified by the return is an open question at best.
Look at it all in perspective though. The IDE XCode isn't even close to free when you consider the extra couple $1000 you paid for the Apple hardware. On the surface it seems like a good deal, but break it down and I can buy a PC, Windows and Visual Studio for far less than a Mac with "free" XCode. I'm not arguing which one is better, etc.. just saying the price argument is flawed.
Interesting. I read through this thread and here's what I noticed from chronster and dev012:
Apple restricts apps
iPhone doesn't have Flash
Macs are expensive
Anyone notice the MS marketing strategy in this? I'm not going to make unfounded accusation, but if you are being paid for this, enjoy those MS paychecks while you can. Congress is working on making it illegal to pay people to plant marketing data in blogs and forums.
between m$'s first quarterly loss, the ignorant pc buyers, ballmer the blowhard and this guy you'd think apple ran the world.
to clear up;
"porting programs from ... Objective-C to C# is relatively painless, because both are Java-like languages"
uhhhhh, you mean java is C-like, or doesn't a pioneer get any credit anymore.
People who realize it makes no sense to pay 2x more for a macbook when they could get a PC that does everything they need.
Unless they want to enjoy the system too. Additionally, with the Mac, they can run Windows on it when they like and have both platforms available for development.
No way man. There's always gonna be dorky websites that offer quick flash games.
Dorky websites & quick flash games. Exactly the previous poster's point. Is that the best you got?
Thompson
I can develop just fine on my $499 Dell Latitude that came with Vista. Add VS to that and you're way under the price of the cheapest Macbook. Just because there are PC's that are more expensive doesn't mean that's required to develop in VS. For Apple though it is required because they don't offer any affordable models.
Oh sure, I could develop using a Mac Mini just fine as well. However, if you work on large software projects, the extra time you spend recompiling with a slow computer on a daily basis is far more expensive than the extra cost of a faster computer.
Bottom to top compile time for the current project I'm working on:
2.0 GHz Mac Mini w/ 2 GB RAM: 15 minutes
2 x 2.8 GHz Mac Pro w/ 4 GB RAM: 3 minutes
The Windows developers report similar speed differences between those with newer (faster) machines and those with older (slower) machines.
So really, that faster computer more than pays for itself with the increased productivity over the 3 or so years you use it.
you like to throw that word around a lot don't you? ignorant...
couldn't get a job astroturfing for the health insurance industry, eh?
As far as supporting "all the versions" of WM: It's not as hard as you think. Some of the new stuff with 6.5 might not easily be backward compatible with 6.1 or 6.0, but what I've found is if it works on 6.1, it tends to work all the way back to 5.0. I've never had an issue running something designed for 5.0 on 6.1.
Nah, pretty much ever windows mobile phone feels clunky so the user experience is pretty much the same LOL
Honestly though, the differences between phones and the experiences ARE just like computers, where the newest ones are always faster and give a better experience.
I can attest to your compatibility statement, everything, aside from TCPMP worked from WM5 to WM6.1. However, I believe MS stated the App Store would only be available on 6.1 and up.
As far as different experiences, I can't really agree. As far as WM goes, I've used the OS since it was 5.0 with my MPX220. I've also used the HTC 8125, HTC 8525, HTC 8925, Pantech Duo, and Samsung Blackjack. All were very sluggish. And after a few months with them, they became even slower. It was almost a daily routine hard resetting my phone for it to function. The HTC 8925 was the last straw. It was the most powerful smart phone I had to date, and It still ran no faster than my 5.0 powered phones. I give HTC props for creating very innovative designs, and phones that last pretty well. I'm also glad to see they're exploring Android pretty heavily now, which I think has blown WM out of the water since 1.0.
I watched a video of 6.5 online, and it still looks sluggish. If the rumors are true that 7.0 is a recoded, built from the ground up OS, they may be back in the game, but there's no excuse for putting out garbage for the better part of a decade prior to this.
The reason Apple's App store works so well is that it comes already installed in the phone, and there are only 3 phones these applications can run on. There's really not too many compatibility issues as of yet, aside from maybe the GPS Apps on the 1st generation. Also, Apple hasn't left their first generation users in the dust. They too have been given the 3.0 update. Albeit, it may not offer all of the 3.0 updates, it was still updated to fix bugs and offer a few cool features. My WM phones get 1 update, and every time I was left with more bugs and headaches than what I started with. I think anyone with an HTC 8925 can attest to that!
Yes, competition is good...have at it, Google, Symbian, MS, etc., but don't vilify Apple for a proven modus operandi.
If Apple were a company to rest on its laurels we would still be using OS9, the iPod Classic, the original Shuffle, the first gen iPhone and a "plastic" white laptop.
I'm not one to belly ache about what Apple is not doing. I have great confidence the Apple PHD's will continue to improve their product offerings and stay well ahead of the competition.
Apple, generally and Steve Jobs specifically, have been able to corral the nerds/engineers into providing tech that actually works and is a pleasure to work on! Unlike MS, HP, Dell, Nokia, Symbian, Sony, LG, Motorola, Gateway, etc., etc., which is a nightmare to work on compared to the Apple products.
Microsoft has publicly announced that there is no upgrade path for existing phones for v6.5 or v7.0 (which is planned to be released less than six months later). So developers have the additional hurdle of having an install base of zero if they target v6.5 or v7.0 with their apps.
Microsoft may have, in total, more phones running a version of wince, but it's incredibly hard for developers to actually support all the different models of phones, each with a slightly different revision of wince, with different screens, processors, buttons and RAM. You aren't just coding for wince, you need to develop for each of the actual phones you want to support.
And don't forget, the day after iPhone OS 3.0 was released to the public, MILLIONS of iPhones upgraded to it, so developers immediately could use the latest API's and know they could sell their 3.0-specific apps (if they didn't want to support the older version) right away. Only if their app required new hardware capabilities, then they would need to wait for sales of the latest iPhone.
Microsoft has publicly announced that there is no upgrade path for existing phones for v6.5 or v7.0 (which is planned to be released less than six months later). So developers have the additional hurdle of having an install base of zero if they target v6.5 or v7.0 with their apps.
Microsoft may have, in total, more phones running a version of wince, but it's incredibly hard for developers to actually support all the different models of phones, each with a slightly different revision of wince, with different screens, processors, buttons and RAM. You aren't just coding for wince, you need to develop for each of the actual phones you want to support.
Good points. If I was a developer I would steer clear of anything MS offers! It's a crap organization that produces crap time and time again.
Be gone troll.
Interesting. I read through this thread and here's what I noticed from chronster and dev012:
Apple restricts apps
iPhone doesn't have Flash
Macs are expensive
Anyone notice the MS marketing strategy in this? I'm not going to make unfounded accusation, but if you are being paid for this, enjoy those MS paychecks while you can. Congress is working on making it illegal to pay people to plant marketing data in blogs and forums.
Welcome to the forums. So far you haven't really added anything decent to the thread, but I'll cross my fingers for you and hope you stick around past 20 posts. The more the merrier.
By the way this thread just earned me enough to buy my family rice for dinner. We fight off starvation one more day. I'll be back tomorrow to collect my paycheck when I start my "Apple eats babies" thread.
But seriously, grow up. Use some intelligence and discuss what's said instead of brushing it off with name calling. That'll get you more respect from everyone.
Dorky websites & quick flash games. Exactly the previous poster's point. Is that the best you got?
Thompson
He said they were dying out but they aren't. Why would they? Sure they're dorky, but plenty of DORKIER things are still around and thriving ::cough twitter cough::
Even if you're not into flash games, what about hulu? What about the fact that flash is so common these days? Surely you can speak to that point. I hope Apple does allow flash on the iphone. With that browser, I think it really would work great and people would get a lot out of it (even if they don't play the dorky games ;P)
couldn't get a job astroturfing for the health insurance industry, eh?
I think you misread my post. I wasn't calling him ignorant, just saying he was throwing the word "ignorant" around a lot. Maybe I should edit.
It runs on countless devices, which amounts to a staggered, variable user experience, completely out of Microsoft's control. There are other issues, such as MS not knowing how to design UIs, but that's a different matter.
Is Microsoft's purchase of Danger going to change this? Is the real intent of this document to provide information to port to a Zune Phone with a consistent hardware configuration?
Has Apple not proved to everyone that design/production/control of their hardware and design/production/control of their software is the recipe for a gratifying user experience and thereby company success?
Yes, competition is good...have at it, Google, Symbian, MS, etc., but don't vilify Apple for a proven modus operandi.
QFT.
Apple certainly HAS proven that. But it's better for some to go on denying it, and when one of the also-rans manages to innovate, inpsire, and otherwise show some shred of originality, they'll be the first ones to say "see? told ya." Which goes to pove that even a broken clock is right twice a day.