I have moved to apple in summer 2004 I love it and I convinced 21 of my friends to join Apple. BUT WAIT! with this iphone rip off and being exclusive to certain networks, being so expensive, with this app rejection of google and others, jailbreak and unlock. I have got an iphone 3 weeks ego and I am now off it because of apple's stupid behaviors,Apple is never going to learn. I am hopping some company like sony ericsson or htc or any other will bring a high quality phone better than Iphone and google to improve android and come on Microsoft I hate you but now we need you Apple needs more lessons. That day will come and I AM READY TO PUNCH APPLE WITH MY ELBOW. ARE YOU NOT
Look at it all in perspective though. The IDE XCode isn't even close to free when you consider the extra couple $1000 you paid for the Apple hardware. On the surface it seems like a good deal, but break it down and I can buy a PC, Windows and Visual Studio for far less than a Mac with "free" XCode. I'm not arguing which one is better, etc.. just saying the price argument is flawed.
I don't think this is true at all. I have an HP 4400 developer workstation on which I have VS2008, and I have an iMac base model with 2 GB of extra RAM on which I have xCode. The CPU in the HP is no faster than the iMac, the built in sound is only marginally better, and graphics are no better than the mac, yet the HP cost twice as much. Moreover, the iMac is more performant than the HP workstation and about half the time I use the Mac to RDP to the windows machine because I find it easier to test the web applications I write that way. I've heard this line of argument before, and I just don't think it holds up under real scrutiny.
What's cracks me up, is that Microsoft don't even use C# to build their own OS. They promotion Visual Studio and .NET but don't fully embrace .NET.
Clearly you don't know what you are talking about. The .NET Framework requires an operating system to execute. How could you write an OS on a platform that requires an OS?
I think the most you can say is that it could make fiscal sense for some apps in some cases. Porting and maintaining a port is going to require an investment by the developer. Whether that investment will be justified by the return is an open question at best.
I agree for the most part on all three of your points. Certainly there will be cases where it doesn't make sense for a specific developer at a specific time. What I have seen in this thread, however, are people responding harshly with derisive remarks akin to 'no iPhone developer would ever do that,' and I think those kinds of statements are largely unfounded. I think it is a given that it will certainly make good financial sense to many developers to port their apps. People who don't want to see that are, I think, somewhat blinded by a misplaced loyalty. I love my mac, but I'm not going to deprive myself of opportunities for growth just because I like SJ's style. To think that the majority of developers are somehow snowed by some kind of rabid platform cultism is, I think, a very questionable assumption... somewhat like suggesting Adobe will only make software for the Macintosh because it has a better user experience. Thinking like that was nonsense way back when, and it still is. While I sympathize with wanting to believe that wouldn't happen, I don't think it is a very thoughtful position to take; businesses want to make money. If they think that porting their app will make them more money, you had better believe they will do it, and from that perspective it makes great sense for M$ to provide guides and examples of how it can be done.
I have moved to apple in summer 2004 I love it and I convinced 21 of my friends to join Apple. BUT WAIT! with this iphone rip off and being exclusive to certain networks, being so expensive, with this app rejection of google and others, jailbreak and unlock. I have got an iphone 3 weeks ego and I am now off it because of apple's stupid behaviors,Apple is never going to learn. I am hopping some company like sony ericsson or htc or any other will bring a high quality phone better than Iphone and google to improve android and come on Microsoft I hate you but now we need you Apple needs more lessons. That day will come and I AM READY TO PUNCH APPLE WITH MY ELBOW. ARE YOU NOT
I agree about the cost of the iPhone. Especially ATT. $100/month is too much. But I think you will be hoping and waiting a long time if you think sony ericsson can replicate the iPhone. Possibly never!
Apple certainly HAS proven that. But it's better for some to go on denying it, and when one of the also-rans manages to innovate, inpsire, and otherwise show some shred of originality, they'll be the first ones to say "see? told ya." Which goes to pove that even a broken clock is right twice a day.
But it's stagnant. No growth. They had the advantage, they had the majority and it's rapidly eroding away.
Watching MS flail around would be painful if it wasn't so entertaining...
Agreed! Just ask GM. 30 years ago they had 72% Market Share of the biggest Market in the world, the USA. And they blew it. And for the last 10 years or so GM has been "flailing" around. This is what the powers that be at MS are worried about and rightly so!
Another nail in windows mobile's coffin as far as I'm concerned - it's up to each manufacturer to develop the phone and contacts applications. I had an HTC WinMo phone first, and it's phone app was actually very nice - in some ways better then the iPhone's. Then I broke it and since they were between models (no parts to fix my old one, no new ones to give me) my carrier offered to "upgrade" me to the more expensive Treo. What a mistake! Palm did an INCREDIBLY bad job - their phone app was so bad it was almost unusable. I despised that thing and between the stupid phone locking up at least once a week (and I only had one app - a password manager - on it) I was barely able to hang on until the end of my contract to get an iPhone. There were many times where it would have been worth it to just pay the early termination fee on that POS.
The whole model of how they do business and manage the OS in Windows Mobile is totally flawed and I doubt they can fix it without a major mind share shift and risk of alienating developers or partners like the PlaysForSure (ha!) to Zune debacle. Right now Windows Mobile is all about the developers and the manufactures and damn the user experience. And they wonder why they are loosing market share?
You do realize that WinMo has a much larger market share than the iPhone OS right? The iPhone OS is growing at a faster rate and it dominates the web traffic category, but WinMo is still crushing it in overall market share.
I'm not a M$ fanboy and I have an iPhone 3GS, but ignoring the true market share numbers is just stupid.
Dev012 - you are a funny troll to have an iPhone but then spout utter rubbish about the pitiful state of MS mobile products. WinMo has a historical installed base of about ~50Million devices, iPhone/iTouch has >45M. Many of those WinMo devices are incapable of running 6.0/6.1 and certainly 6.5. There is a significant diversity of hardware spec (even though most phones have only ever been made by HTC) so there is no way that many years of WinMo output can approach the real market size or monetized potential of a concentrated 2 years of iPhone OSX output. Add to that the massively higher uptake/spend on apps/advanced web usage and you have an essentially moribund MS platform against a rampant OSX and RIM, attacking what little value proposition WinMo has left from both sides. Maybe Mo7 will be good but by then it may be too little too late.
It is no wonder that MS are desperate to get developers to come over by pretending it is almost a free add-on to the work they are doing for OSX while trying to copy anyone else's ideas along the way.
WinMo is in deep trouble and MS's actions show that.
The iphone is nice, but there are countless people that will attest their love for windows mobile who have COME FROM the iphone.
And do you any stats to show that "countless" people are moving to other phones after buying an iPhone? And of those "countless people" that have left the iPhone. And of those "countless people" where are the stats to show that they have specifically chosen WinMo?
Or are you just pissing in the wind? As usual.
Quote:
If I was allowed to do what I wanted on an iphone like I can on a windows mobile phone, I'd have an iphone
What exactly do you want to do with your phone?
Followed by... would the majority of phone users need to do the same?
Quote:
A browser without flash support is just dumb.
And is it dumb because most smart phones don't support full Flash... or just because iPhone doesn't support it?
Quote:
I guess it makes sense for me to say that the reason I don't own an iphone is because of Apple. Kind of ironic.
Considering nearly every one of your posts contains anti-apple sentiment,,, there is no irony there whatsoever.
Can anyone tell me why is absence of flash on iPhone a bad thing? Apart from few retarded sites using flash for navigation i really don't see the point.
Sites like hulu.com don't need flash, they can stream videos using x264 either through live http streaming or as mp4 files.
Flash games? Seriously? A flash game can burn a hole in a laptop. What would the performance on an iPhone be and what would it do with battery life? Also lot of flash games assume physical keyboard is present.
If anything I'm glad there is no flash support for iPhone and I hope there'll never be one. Given the market penetration less and less people can ignore iPhone so they build sites that don't depend on flash.
But the problem with these other platforms is you have to support multiple hardware configurations. Many iPhone developers are very small shops that just don't have the resources to do that.
I'm currently developing an iPhone app. Most of it is written in C++ and is very portable. But there's no way I'm going to port it to _any_ platform that has a small market share _and_ requires me to support multiple hardware platforms.
I'm personally writing in C/ObjC for the platform and from there I plan on extending it to work with the desktop Cocoa application.
I personally have no desire to write in C++ unless I want to write an application using Qt.
I am curious as to Microsoft's vision for their mobile and C#. Are they actually promoting that over C++ or not?
And do you any stats to show that "countless" people are moving to other phones after buying an iPhone? And of those "countless people" that have left the iPhone. And of those "countless people" where are the stats to show that they have specifically chosen WinMo?
Or are you just pissing in the wind? As usual.
What exactly do you want to do with your phone?
Followed by... would the majority of phone users need to do the same?
And is it dumb because most smart phones don't support full Flash... or just because iPhone doesn't support it?
Considering nearly every one of your posts contains anti-apple sentiment,,, there is no irony there whatsoever.
1. Amazing you pounce on my comment when people around here constantly say things like that, providing no "stats" or data on their OPINION. Countless people as in I can't count the number of people I've seen post at places like PPCGeeks.com and XDADevelopers that have tried and hated the iphone.
So hmm, let me pull up some charts here, and yup, there it is: You're nitpicking and trying to start an argument as usual.
2. What exactly do I want to do? Or what exactly have I BEEN doing since last November that the iphone can't? Do you really want me to go over all the things I take for granted that the iphone doesn't have? Here's a good one, that I need for work specifically: MULTITASKING. It's nice being able to research something on the web, copy something, paste it into an email with an image attachment, all while on a conference call. Is there an app for that? Running a ported version of android is cool too, albeit pointless right now.
And why do I care what the majority of users want to do? Why would you care? I was talking about what I wanted to do with a phone and why I don't own one.
3. YA JUS CUZ DA IPHONE HEZ IT. THAT IS WHY IT IS IS DUMB FOR FLASH NOT TO B ON BROZR DERRR.
A bit of a stretch to start an argument, don't you think?
4. Finally, before speaking, try reading. My "anti-apple sentiments" are ill to none, and whatever I do have stem from the type of behavior we've seen an abundance of in the past few weeks.
I know you, and people LIKE you think that if someone doesn't share the same opinion as you, they must be trolling. The truth is, picking apart someone's comment and trying to start an argument over nothing with each and every line is obvious trolling.
2. What exactly do I want to do? Or what exactly have I BEEN doing since last November that the iphone can't? Do you really want me to go over all the things I take for granted that the iphone doesn't have? Here's a good one, that I need for work specifically: MULTITASKING. It's nice being able to research something on the web, copy something, paste it into an email with an image attachment, all while on a conference call. Is there an app for that? Running a ported version of android is cool too, albeit pointless right now.
Actually... the iPhone can do that one.
The phone call can run in the background. Go in to safari, copy, paste in an email, and send, all while you're still on the phone.
Comments
Look at it all in perspective though. The IDE XCode isn't even close to free when you consider the extra couple $1000 you paid for the Apple hardware. On the surface it seems like a good deal, but break it down and I can buy a PC, Windows and Visual Studio for far less than a Mac with "free" XCode. I'm not arguing which one is better, etc.. just saying the price argument is flawed.
I don't think this is true at all. I have an HP 4400 developer workstation on which I have VS2008, and I have an iMac base model with 2 GB of extra RAM on which I have xCode. The CPU in the HP is no faster than the iMac, the built in sound is only marginally better, and graphics are no better than the mac, yet the HP cost twice as much. Moreover, the iMac is more performant than the HP workstation and about half the time I use the Mac to RDP to the windows machine because I find it easier to test the web applications I write that way. I've heard this line of argument before, and I just don't think it holds up under real scrutiny.
What's cracks me up, is that Microsoft don't even use C# to build their own OS. They promotion Visual Studio and .NET but don't fully embrace .NET.
Clearly you don't know what you are talking about. The .NET Framework requires an operating system to execute. How could you write an OS on a platform that requires an OS?
"You'll see our browsing experience gets dramatically better"
These claims of better browsing have been made by Microsloth with each new release of "WinLess" for more than a decade, going back to the Compaq iPaq.
I AM READY TO PUNCH APPLE WITH MY ELBOW. ARE YOU NOT
Not. The iPhone isn't suddenly a POS just because of a few highly publicized actions touted primarily by desperate competition.
I think the most you can say is that it could make fiscal sense for some apps in some cases. Porting and maintaining a port is going to require an investment by the developer. Whether that investment will be justified by the return is an open question at best.
I agree for the most part on all three of your points. Certainly there will be cases where it doesn't make sense for a specific developer at a specific time. What I have seen in this thread, however, are people responding harshly with derisive remarks akin to 'no iPhone developer would ever do that,' and I think those kinds of statements are largely unfounded. I think it is a given that it will certainly make good financial sense to many developers to port their apps. People who don't want to see that are, I think, somewhat blinded by a misplaced loyalty. I love my mac, but I'm not going to deprive myself of opportunities for growth just because I like SJ's style. To think that the majority of developers are somehow snowed by some kind of rabid platform cultism is, I think, a very questionable assumption... somewhat like suggesting Adobe will only make software for the Macintosh because it has a better user experience. Thinking like that was nonsense way back when, and it still is. While I sympathize with wanting to believe that wouldn't happen, I don't think it is a very thoughtful position to take; businesses want to make money. If they think that porting their app will make them more money, you had better believe they will do it, and from that perspective it makes great sense for M$ to provide guides and examples of how it can be done.
I'm not a M$ fanboy and I have an iPhone 3GS, but ignoring the true market share numbers is just stupid.
But it's stagnant. No growth. They had the advantage, they had the majority and it's rapidly eroding away.
Watching MS flail around would be painful if it wasn't so entertaining...
I have moved to apple in summer 2004 I love it and I convinced 21 of my friends to join Apple. BUT WAIT! with this iphone rip off and being exclusive to certain networks, being so expensive, with this app rejection of google and others, jailbreak and unlock. I have got an iphone 3 weeks ego and I am now off it because of apple's stupid behaviors,Apple is never going to learn. I am hopping some company like sony ericsson or htc or any other will bring a high quality phone better than Iphone and google to improve android and come on Microsoft I hate you but now we need you Apple needs more lessons. That day will come and I AM READY TO PUNCH APPLE WITH MY ELBOW. ARE YOU NOT
I agree about the cost of the iPhone. Especially ATT. $100/month is too much. But I think you will be hoping and waiting a long time if you think sony ericsson can replicate the iPhone. Possibly never!
QFT.
Apple certainly HAS proven that. But it's better for some to go on denying it, and when one of the also-rans manages to innovate, inpsire, and otherwise show some shred of originality, they'll be the first ones to say "see? told ya." Which goes to pove that even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Yep!
But it's stagnant. No growth. They had the advantage, they had the majority and it's rapidly eroding away.
Watching MS flail around would be painful if it wasn't so entertaining...
Agreed! Just ask GM. 30 years ago they had 72% Market Share of the biggest Market in the world, the USA. And they blew it. And for the last 10 years or so GM has been "flailing" around. This is what the powers that be at MS are worried about and rightly so!
The whole model of how they do business and manage the OS in Windows Mobile is totally flawed and I doubt they can fix it without a major mind share shift and risk of alienating developers or partners like the PlaysForSure (ha!) to Zune debacle. Right now Windows Mobile is all about the developers and the manufactures and damn the user experience. And they wonder why they are loosing market share?
You do realize that WinMo has a much larger market share than the iPhone OS right? The iPhone OS is growing at a faster rate and it dominates the web traffic category, but WinMo is still crushing it in overall market share.
I'm not a M$ fanboy and I have an iPhone 3GS, but ignoring the true market share numbers is just stupid.
Dev012 - you are a funny troll to have an iPhone but then spout utter rubbish about the pitiful state of MS mobile products. WinMo has a historical installed base of about ~50Million devices, iPhone/iTouch has >45M. Many of those WinMo devices are incapable of running 6.0/6.1 and certainly 6.5. There is a significant diversity of hardware spec (even though most phones have only ever been made by HTC) so there is no way that many years of WinMo output can approach the real market size or monetized potential of a concentrated 2 years of iPhone OSX output. Add to that the massively higher uptake/spend on apps/advanced web usage and you have an essentially moribund MS platform against a rampant OSX and RIM, attacking what little value proposition WinMo has left from both sides. Maybe Mo7 will be good but by then it may be too little too late.
It is no wonder that MS are desperate to get developers to come over by pretending it is almost a free add-on to the work they are doing for OSX while trying to copy anyone else's ideas along the way.
WinMo is in deep trouble and MS's actions show that.
The iphone is nice, but there are countless people that will attest their love for windows mobile who have COME FROM the iphone.
And do you any stats to show that "countless" people are moving to other phones after buying an iPhone? And of those "countless people" that have left the iPhone. And of those "countless people" where are the stats to show that they have specifically chosen WinMo?
Or are you just pissing in the wind? As usual.
If I was allowed to do what I wanted on an iphone like I can on a windows mobile phone, I'd have an iphone
What exactly do you want to do with your phone?
Followed by... would the majority of phone users need to do the same?
A browser without flash support is just dumb.
And is it dumb because most smart phones don't support full Flash... or just because iPhone doesn't support it?
I guess it makes sense for me to say that the reason I don't own an iphone is because of Apple. Kind of ironic.
Considering nearly every one of your posts contains anti-apple sentiment,,, there is no irony there whatsoever.
Sites like hulu.com don't need flash, they can stream videos using x264 either through live http streaming or as mp4 files.
Flash games? Seriously? A flash game can burn a hole in a laptop. What would the performance on an iPhone be and what would it do with battery life? Also lot of flash games assume physical keyboard is present.
If anything I'm glad there is no flash support for iPhone and I hope there'll never be one. Given the market penetration less and less people can ignore iPhone so they build sites that don't depend on flash.
Probably true.
But the problem with these other platforms is you have to support multiple hardware configurations. Many iPhone developers are very small shops that just don't have the resources to do that.
I'm currently developing an iPhone app. Most of it is written in C++ and is very portable. But there's no way I'm going to port it to _any_ platform that has a small market share _and_ requires me to support multiple hardware platforms.
I'm personally writing in C/ObjC for the platform and from there I plan on extending it to work with the desktop Cocoa application.
I personally have no desire to write in C++ unless I want to write an application using Qt.
I am curious as to Microsoft's vision for their mobile and C#. Are they actually promoting that over C++ or not?
....will no doubt make this another MS fiasco. Balmer- you are the biggest idiot in technology.
Balmer is the John Scully of MS. Everyone in Silicon Valley should be celebrating.
And do you any stats to show that "countless" people are moving to other phones after buying an iPhone? And of those "countless people" that have left the iPhone. And of those "countless people" where are the stats to show that they have specifically chosen WinMo?
Or are you just pissing in the wind? As usual.
What exactly do you want to do with your phone?
Followed by... would the majority of phone users need to do the same?
And is it dumb because most smart phones don't support full Flash... or just because iPhone doesn't support it?
Considering nearly every one of your posts contains anti-apple sentiment,,, there is no irony there whatsoever.
1. Amazing you pounce on my comment when people around here constantly say things like that, providing no "stats" or data on their OPINION. Countless people as in I can't count the number of people I've seen post at places like PPCGeeks.com and XDADevelopers that have tried and hated the iphone.
So hmm, let me pull up some charts here, and yup, there it is: You're nitpicking and trying to start an argument as usual.
2. What exactly do I want to do? Or what exactly have I BEEN doing since last November that the iphone can't? Do you really want me to go over all the things I take for granted that the iphone doesn't have? Here's a good one, that I need for work specifically: MULTITASKING. It's nice being able to research something on the web, copy something, paste it into an email with an image attachment, all while on a conference call. Is there an app for that? Running a ported version of android is cool too, albeit pointless right now.
And why do I care what the majority of users want to do? Why would you care? I was talking about what I wanted to do with a phone and why I don't own one.
3. YA JUS CUZ DA IPHONE HEZ IT. THAT IS WHY IT IS IS DUMB FOR FLASH NOT TO B ON BROZR DERRR.
A bit of a stretch to start an argument, don't you think?
4. Finally, before speaking, try reading. My "anti-apple sentiments" are ill to none, and whatever I do have stem from the type of behavior we've seen an abundance of in the past few weeks.
I know you, and people LIKE you think that if someone doesn't share the same opinion as you, they must be trolling. The truth is, picking apart someone's comment and trying to start an argument over nothing with each and every line is obvious trolling.
Now have fun on my ignore list.
2. What exactly do I want to do? Or what exactly have I BEEN doing since last November that the iphone can't? Do you really want me to go over all the things I take for granted that the iphone doesn't have? Here's a good one, that I need for work specifically: MULTITASKING. It's nice being able to research something on the web, copy something, paste it into an email with an image attachment, all while on a conference call. Is there an app for that? Running a ported version of android is cool too, albeit pointless right now.
Actually... the iPhone can do that one.
The phone call can run in the background. Go in to safari, copy, paste in an email, and send, all while you're still on the phone.