As developers we're fully behind Apple's decision not to support Flash. Honestly, who needs all that 'disco' crap. We can do almost everything we want to in Ajax. Keep up the good work Steve.
NYT, like many other content providers, will have an app that will allow seamless video/media similar to (but with better performance than) you expect from flash.Barring that, content providers can provide their video in Apple's native (better performance than flash) video codecs. Not sure what everyone is complaining about, since even flash on my Core 2 Duo mac gets pretty awful performance compared to just about any other multimedia platform.
I think just as youtube is transitioning to html5, so will every other free video website.
With all of the hype going on, I think Apple spoke a little too highly of the iPad while overlooking such obvious issues like no Flash.
Yeah I know, no Flash and no camera...but I still think it's a great product that will only get better. Price will come down, memory will go up within a year or two.
It was a message to web developers, and it said: "We've sold millions and millions of iPhones without Flash and made so much money we can't even count it all. We intend to do the same with this new device. And if you want your websites to work properly on our shiny new toy, you need to stop using Flash."
Quote:
Originally Posted by iGenius
Flash would run down the battery.
It is a tug of war between Apple on one side and Adobe and all Flash developers on the other side. A website without Flash will in general use less CPU cycles and battery and will be less crash-prone then one with it. Apple can optimize and fix bugs in Safari but they cannot optimize and fix bugs in Flash. Thus, when things are tight in regard to speed and energy consumption, excluding Flash helps you.
The question is whether Apple will have the power to kill Flash and more generally whether a company should have the right to kill a technology even if killing this technology could be considered to be beneficial for the world as a whole (which is debatable) if killing this technology would be beneficial to said company (offering a better web experience on mobile devices will help the 'largest mobile devices company').
Flash kind of sucks if you have dealt with it in Linux or Mac OSX you would hate it... Even in windows it is buggy and its probably the biggest security risk to the machine after IE.
Here are the reasons why flash should be kept out the iPhone and iPad.
1. Performance hog
2. Security vulnerabilities
3. Crash prone
4. Flash games are not meant for a touch screen device
If the iPad or iPhone had flash it still wouldn?t be able to play most flash games because those games weren't designed for a touch interface.... Also most sites are moving to html5 to display video like YouTube and Vimeo. All we need is for Hulu to follow suit and end of flash to display video will happen soon after.
The iPad is directed at people that just want things to work and those individuals wouldn?t know that the reason why their experience isn?t perfect is because of flash and not the iPad. I read a post yesterday that stated that they were thinking about buying one for their kid but probably won?t because without flash the games on Disney won?t work. I normally just read and don?t post but what I did feel the urge to tell him that those games weren?t built for a touch interface so even if the iPad supported flash those games wouldn?t work.
And that is the core of the issue. Allowing something in your system that just play sucks is silly and shouldn?t be done especially when most people will blame the device not the software for the issue. Techies know the cause of the problem but most people don?t. Try to explain the difference between RAM and a Hard Drive and see how long it takes regular people to understand it (also see how many actually care how it works).
Agreed! Apple gave adobe an opportunity to put flash on the iPhone, and adobe gave apple a bloated piece of software that relied on the CPY rather than the GPU.
Adobe can whine all they want and that may work when trying to get things from their mom's or dad's but this is the real world and if they want their application on these devices, they need to get their act together and actually learn how to program and some attention to detail while their at it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkhm
The flash plug in for the Mac is a nightmare.
Fact.
It crashes, it's slow, it maxes out the processor, it causes machines to over heat.
Fact.
The flash plug in is a proprietary piece of software developed by a third party, not by Apple.
Fact.
So - and I'm going out on a limb here - maybe if Adobe FIXED the plug in, made it work better, it would be welcomed.
Conjecture.
But Adobe aren't even trying, at least not in public. I don't want my iPad to crash everytime i hit another spank the monkey advert. I've got click2flash installed on Safari, safari no longer crashes. Youtube works just fine, and the video quality is massively superior to the flash version.
So ADOBE - fix flash. What Flash can do is great, the potential is fantastic. That it's an unstable piece of crap on all but top end wintel machines is Adobe's issue, not Apple's.
Also - who is to say that this thing can't run flash, and SJ simply blocked it to make a little statement? I don't believe Apple's marketing people are stupid enough to open themselves us to a false claim quite this big. Let's wait eight weeks and see.
Steve Jobs is far too meticulous in preparing his presentations to have "accidentally" opened a website with Flash that the iPad can't display. I have to believe that he knew full well what he was doing, and it was intentional.
It was a message to web developers, and it said: "We've sold millions and millions of iPhones without Flash and made so much money we can't even count it all. We intend to do the same with this new device. And if you want your websites to work properly on our shiny new toy, you need to stop using Flash."
I agree, and I wonder how long it will be before Adobe responds with a lawsuit or simply pulling it programs off the Mac.
Looking at the iPad, the future of locked down, dumbed down, no choice but what Steve says sort of computing, that Steve would be very happy if Adobe did pull their programs off the Mac.
Jesus, what the hell has gotten into him?
Has Steve forgotten that his tiny market share has been falling lately? He acts like he controls the computing world and he doesn't.
He doesn't have whole lot of time left and he's trying to set things into motion that he will be unable to maintain.
Flash is not going to be on the iPhone, iPod Touch or the iPad for the reason the carriers won't allow that sort of control.
Adobe will have to make a version of Flash just for Apple's devices? I don't think so, especially if there is no money involved.
There are 2 misunderstandings here. Flash will not play on the iPad. However the NYTimes has developed an iPad app that presents the Times exactly like their webpage but using H.264 instead of Flash. That explains why when Jobs loaded the web NYTimes at the demo we saw the missing flash icon. Anyone who thinks that was an unintentional accident doesn't know Jobs or Apple very well. These events are planned with military precision. No accident, a not so subtle lift of the middle finger to Adobe. However, once you have an iPad and you run the NYTimes App on the iPad you'll see the full NYTimes but with H.264 instead of Flash.
Regarding the iBooks, Somehow Andrew Ludwig added 2+2 and got 5. Apple's iBook store uses ePub as its format which is a standard format and can be read on a wide number of devices. Books from the Apple book store will play on any device that can read epub.
What Andrew misunderstood is that the only way to access Apple's new iBook bookstore is through an iPad or presumably an iPhone or iPod Touch. What's proprietary is the book store, not the book format. So anyone can log on to Amazon's bookstore with any device (more or less) but only iPads/iPhones/iPod Touches can logon to the iBook store.
There is nothing worse than hitting a flash ad on my G5 Powermac. The fans kick in to full power mode- until I resize the window so that it is cropped out and it stops rendering, and the fans cycle down to normal. If it affects my G5 that much, I can't imagine what it would do to an iPhone/iPad.
I'd like a switch for Flash on/off (just for Hulu), but there is no way it would be added, as Apple's target audience has no clue what flash is and where it is used. Maybe Hulu should get on the HTML5 bandwagon.
I have no love for Flash or any proprietary code becoming part of the Web. Funny that while FSF was bashing Apple for the iPad, the organization ignored Adobe and its support of Flash.
John Gruber probably wrote the best defense for Apple not including Flash on the iPhone, iPod touch and iPad.
In other words, in Apple?s giant pile of aggregate crash reports ? from all app crashes on all Macs from all users who click the button to send these reports to Apple ? Flash accounts for more of them than anything else. That doesn?t mean Flash somehow causes crashes in any various app. Presumably, most of the time it?s Safari or some other browser playing Flash content. And it?s worth noting that this doesn?t necessarily mean Flash is particularly crash-prone or poorly engineered. Think of it as a formula like this:
total crashes = (crashing bugs) × (actual use)
Flash?s number and severity of crashing bugs could well be somewhat low and it would still account for a large number of total crashes because it?s actually used all the time ? by any Mac user with Flash content playing in a web page. And, if Flash Player for Mac OS X actually is poorly-engineered overly-buggy code, well, that?s even worse.
I hope Apple sticks to its guns and continues to deny Flash on these devices.
I agree, and I wonder how long it will be before Adobe responds with a lawsuit or simply pulling it programs off the Mac.
Looking at the iPad, the future of locked down, dumbed down, no choice but what Steve says sort of computing, that Steve would be very happy if Adobe did pull their programs off the Mac.
Jesus, what the hell has gotten into him?
In the big picture, it spells the end of freedom and beginning of total control. But that's the 5-15 year plan.
Right now it just means the first widely popular closed OS.
----
I'd laugh pretty heartily if Adobe dropped Mac support all together. Wouldn't effect me at all since I use CS3 and have no plans or intention to ever upgrade. Ever.
CS4 was an insult to Adobe customers and has had the slowest adoption rate of any CS suite. I'm not interested in what they produce. They bought Macromedia only to destroy their few worthwhile products.
Do you know all those empty holes in web-sites. Left by the missing Flash.
What would happen if Apple sold the space to Advertisers fill all those holes with alternative content?
C.
While an interesting idea in theory, it would probably result in a lawsuit. Advertisers could claim that Apple is intentionally blocking flash ads only to turn it around and resell the space to someone else.
only iPads/iPhones/iPod Touches can logon to the iBook store.
I'd hope that any device running iTunes can log on to it too. The more portals, the more penetration.
I could like without the iBookstore on the Apple TV, but it should be accessible from every Apple computer, mobile device and iTunes installatio, just like the iTunes and App Stores.
Adobe will have to make a version of Flash just for Apple's devices? I don't think so, especially if there is no money involved.
Adobe will find it difficult to sell development tools for their "any environment" run time if it runs on progressively less of the popular environments. It is in Adobe's interest to push Flash Player, Apple's only incentive is potential increased sales from compatibility with existing web content; web content that in some notable cases (YouTube, Vimeo) seems to be migrating away from Flash.
Comments
NYT, like many other content providers, will have an app that will allow seamless video/media similar to (but with better performance than) you expect from flash.Barring that, content providers can provide their video in Apple's native (better performance than flash) video codecs. Not sure what everyone is complaining about, since even flash on my Core 2 Duo mac gets pretty awful performance compared to just about any other multimedia platform.
I think just as youtube is transitioning to html5, so will every other free video website.
Yeah I know, no Flash and no camera...but I still think it's a great product that will only get better. Price will come down, memory will go up within a year or two.
Check it out:
http://www.ipadlot.com
It was a message to web developers, and it said: "We've sold millions and millions of iPhones without Flash and made so much money we can't even count it all. We intend to do the same with this new device. And if you want your websites to work properly on our shiny new toy, you need to stop using Flash."
Flash would run down the battery.
It is a tug of war between Apple on one side and Adobe and all Flash developers on the other side. A website without Flash will in general use less CPU cycles and battery and will be less crash-prone then one with it. Apple can optimize and fix bugs in Safari but they cannot optimize and fix bugs in Flash. Thus, when things are tight in regard to speed and energy consumption, excluding Flash helps you.
The question is whether Apple will have the power to kill Flash and more generally whether a company should have the right to kill a technology even if killing this technology could be considered to be beneficial for the world as a whole (which is debatable) if killing this technology would be beneficial to said company (offering a better web experience on mobile devices will help the 'largest mobile devices company').
It's been bankrupt and living on life support from Carlos Slim, it's not a beacon of success.
Here are the reasons why flash should be kept out the iPhone and iPad.
1. Performance hog
2. Security vulnerabilities
3. Crash prone
4. Flash games are not meant for a touch screen device
If the iPad or iPhone had flash it still wouldn?t be able to play most flash games because those games weren't designed for a touch interface.... Also most sites are moving to html5 to display video like YouTube and Vimeo. All we need is for Hulu to follow suit and end of flash to display video will happen soon after.
The iPad is directed at people that just want things to work and those individuals wouldn?t know that the reason why their experience isn?t perfect is because of flash and not the iPad. I read a post yesterday that stated that they were thinking about buying one for their kid but probably won?t because without flash the games on Disney won?t work. I normally just read and don?t post but what I did feel the urge to tell him that those games weren?t built for a touch interface so even if the iPad supported flash those games wouldn?t work.
And that is the core of the issue. Allowing something in your system that just play sucks is silly and shouldn?t be done especially when most people will blame the device not the software for the issue. Techies know the cause of the problem but most people don?t. Try to explain the difference between RAM and a Hard Drive and see how long it takes regular people to understand it (also see how many actually care how it works).
What's up with Steve always plugging the New York Times?
It's been bankrupt and living on life support from Carlos Slim, it's not a beacon of success.
Its recognizable to everyone and as such a good synechdoche for newspaper publishers everywhere
Someone needs to take Flash out to the back 40 and put a bullet in it's head. I applaud Apple for not supporting it. And no, that's not sarcasm.
Agree. They have every right to do so, and its not easy to stand up for what you believe in when under the heavy gaze of loud-mouth critics.
Adobe can whine all they want and that may work when trying to get things from their mom's or dad's but this is the real world and if they want their application on these devices, they need to get their act together and actually learn how to program and some attention to detail while their at it.
The flash plug in for the Mac is a nightmare.
Fact.
It crashes, it's slow, it maxes out the processor, it causes machines to over heat.
Fact.
The flash plug in is a proprietary piece of software developed by a third party, not by Apple.
Fact.
So - and I'm going out on a limb here - maybe if Adobe FIXED the plug in, made it work better, it would be welcomed.
Conjecture.
But Adobe aren't even trying, at least not in public. I don't want my iPad to crash everytime i hit another spank the monkey advert. I've got click2flash installed on Safari, safari no longer crashes. Youtube works just fine, and the video quality is massively superior to the flash version.
So ADOBE - fix flash. What Flash can do is great, the potential is fantastic. That it's an unstable piece of crap on all but top end wintel machines is Adobe's issue, not Apple's.
Also - who is to say that this thing can't run flash, and SJ simply blocked it to make a little statement? I don't believe Apple's marketing people are stupid enough to open themselves us to a false claim quite this big. Let's wait eight weeks and see.
Steve Jobs is far too meticulous in preparing his presentations to have "accidentally" opened a website with Flash that the iPad can't display. I have to believe that he knew full well what he was doing, and it was intentional.
It was a message to web developers, and it said: "We've sold millions and millions of iPhones without Flash and made so much money we can't even count it all. We intend to do the same with this new device. And if you want your websites to work properly on our shiny new toy, you need to stop using Flash."
I agree, and I wonder how long it will be before Adobe responds with a lawsuit or simply pulling it programs off the Mac.
Looking at the iPad, the future of locked down, dumbed down, no choice but what Steve says sort of computing, that Steve would be very happy if Adobe did pull their programs off the Mac.
Jesus, what the hell has gotten into him?
Has Steve forgotten that his tiny market share has been falling lately? He acts like he controls the computing world and he doesn't.
He doesn't have whole lot of time left and he's trying to set things into motion that he will be unable to maintain.
Flash is not going to be on the iPhone, iPod Touch or the iPad for the reason the carriers won't allow that sort of control.
Adobe will have to make a version of Flash just for Apple's devices? I don't think so, especially if there is no money involved.
What's up with Steve always plugging the New York Times?
It's been bankrupt and living on life support from Carlos Slim, it's not a beacon of success.
Not to mention a rag that abandoned honest journalism 149 years ago.
Regarding the iBooks, Somehow Andrew Ludwig added 2+2 and got 5. Apple's iBook store uses ePub as its format which is a standard format and can be read on a wide number of devices. Books from the Apple book store will play on any device that can read epub.
What Andrew misunderstood is that the only way to access Apple's new iBook bookstore is through an iPad or presumably an iPhone or iPod Touch. What's proprietary is the book store, not the book format. So anyone can log on to Amazon's bookstore with any device (more or less) but only iPads/iPhones/iPod Touches can logon to the iBook store.
What would happen if Apple sold the space to Advertisers fill all those holes with alternative content?
C.
I'd like a switch for Flash on/off (just for Hulu), but there is no way it would be added, as Apple's target audience has no clue what flash is and where it is used. Maybe Hulu should get on the HTML5 bandwagon.
I have no love for Flash or any proprietary code becoming part of the Web. Funny that while FSF was bashing Apple for the iPad, the organization ignored Adobe and its support of Flash.
John Gruber probably wrote the best defense for Apple not including Flash on the iPhone, iPod touch and iPad.
http://daringfireball.net/2010/01/apple_adobe_flash
In other words, in Apple?s giant pile of aggregate crash reports ? from all app crashes on all Macs from all users who click the button to send these reports to Apple ? Flash accounts for more of them than anything else. That doesn?t mean Flash somehow causes crashes in any various app. Presumably, most of the time it?s Safari or some other browser playing Flash content. And it?s worth noting that this doesn?t necessarily mean Flash is particularly crash-prone or poorly engineered. Think of it as a formula like this:
total crashes = (crashing bugs) × (actual use)
Flash?s number and severity of crashing bugs could well be somewhat low and it would still account for a large number of total crashes because it?s actually used all the time ? by any Mac user with Flash content playing in a web page. And, if Flash Player for Mac OS X actually is poorly-engineered overly-buggy code, well, that?s even worse.
I hope Apple sticks to its guns and continues to deny Flash on these devices.
I agree, and I wonder how long it will be before Adobe responds with a lawsuit or simply pulling it programs off the Mac.
Looking at the iPad, the future of locked down, dumbed down, no choice but what Steve says sort of computing, that Steve would be very happy if Adobe did pull their programs off the Mac.
Jesus, what the hell has gotten into him?
In the big picture, it spells the end of freedom and beginning of total control. But that's the 5-15 year plan.
Right now it just means the first widely popular closed OS.
----
I'd laugh pretty heartily if Adobe dropped Mac support all together. Wouldn't effect me at all since I use CS3 and have no plans or intention to ever upgrade. Ever.
CS4 was an insult to Adobe customers and has had the slowest adoption rate of any CS suite. I'm not interested in what they produce. They bought Macromedia only to destroy their few worthwhile products.
Do you know all those empty holes in web-sites. Left by the missing Flash.
What would happen if Apple sold the space to Advertisers fill all those holes with alternative content?
C.
While an interesting idea in theory, it would probably result in a lawsuit. Advertisers could claim that Apple is intentionally blocking flash ads only to turn it around and resell the space to someone else.
I'll take the empty spaces.
only iPads/iPhones/iPod Touches can logon to the iBook store.
I'd hope that any device running iTunes can log on to it too. The more portals, the more penetration.
I could like without the iBookstore on the Apple TV, but it should be accessible from every Apple computer, mobile device and iTunes installatio, just like the iTunes and App Stores.
Adobe will have to make a version of Flash just for Apple's devices? I don't think so, especially if there is no money involved.
Adobe will find it difficult to sell development tools for their "any environment" run time if it runs on progressively less of the popular environments. It is in Adobe's interest to push Flash Player, Apple's only incentive is potential increased sales from compatibility with existing web content; web content that in some notable cases (YouTube, Vimeo) seems to be migrating away from Flash.
And they better do something quick because they are about to lose out to HTML5.