Right so 10x slower than what most Mac users are used to.
Running applications appropriately scaled to the hardware. I have every expectation that I can do my professional level briefings using the scaled down Keynote and given the movies I expect it to be snappy.
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Don't really see what's FUD about that. They could include a decent amount of RAM but you have to think if they included a lot, they'd tell us and follow it with 'isn't that awesome?'. Given the fact they didn't, I reckon it will have 512MB RAM.
You are spreading FEAR by introducing UNCERTAINTY that the iPad will be able to be used by artists to make serious drawings and paintings by DOUBTing that the iPad will have sufficient memory and CPU resources to do the job.
Never mind that you can make New Yorker covers using Brushes on the iPod Touch/iPhone...
That is pure FUD. You don't know that the iPad has 512MB of RAM. You don't know that the iPad is too slow but proclaim that it will be 10x slower than what users are used to. Never mind that it's at least nearly TWICE as fast as the iPhone (1Ghz vs 600 Mhz) and the apps are not desktop apps.
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Minimum requirements for iWork on the desktop are 512MB and 1GB recommended. An optimized version running on a currently non-multitasking OS and low footprint OS could probably cope with 512MB.
FUD.
The OS multitasks. You know it. I know it. Everyone but trolls admit it. When 4.0 comes out it seems likely that even 3rd party apps will be allowed to run in background.
The iWorks apps for the iPad have been optimized for the iPad hardware.
If the minimum for desktops is 512MB and the iOS overhead is lower than the OS X overhead AND the app is slimmed down then there is NO FRIGGING DOUBT THAT 512MB will be adequate.
In any case, we did not see any beach balls or stuttering in the demos and THE USERS THAT GOT TO PLAY WITH THE IPAD ALL SAID IT WAS TEH SNAPPY.
FUD.
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If you read the Brushes spec, you will see you only get 4 layers because of the uh resource limitations.
You don't suppose Apple 'brushed' over that little detail for the purposes of marketing.
The native resolution of the paintings are also 420 x 280 but they record the strokes so I guess they can redraw them at a higher resolution on export. Doesn't change the fact that you're drawing on that canvas size though. Desktop painting is done at 2k or above.
Layers was added in 2.0 so it is a relatively new feature for brushes.
You will have to provide a citation that it is limited to 4 layers because of "uh resource limitations"
Brushes can export the paintings at 1920x2880 and its a vector program. You'll have to show a citation for a 420x280 canvas size. Given the 16x zoom, if every on screen pixel is still modifiable then the canvas size is quite large.
All FUD points.
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Actually the Brushes demo is interesting because they note zooming in 32x as opposed to 16x for the iPhone so it's either 512MB or 1GB.
Gee...even assuming 420x280 and just doubling it:
420x280 = 117600 pixels
840x560 = 470400 pixels
That's ignoring that the iPad is 1024x768 rather than 480x320 so it's more than double if you actually use the native res of the panels as the starting point.
What does this show about the iPad RAM? Nada except that you don't understand that doubling the size doesn't double the memory requirements to store it but quads it. Which brushes doesn't do anyway since it is a vector drawing program...
More FUD.
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It's rumored to come with 2GB RAM but if it comes with 1GB like some netbooks, 2GB is just a simple install away.
IF you can install it. Show a citation that the RAM is user modifiable.
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No it doesn't. The touch parts of the slate would be for everything else that are better with touch but don't need pressure sensitivity.
Yes it does because where are you putting the pad? You're better off with a full sized win7 convertible at that point with a decent digitizer. At least then you could use it like a Cintiq.
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That review is really from the videos, there's been no hands-on. The main issue they point out is the control sizes but desktop controls aren't really any smaller than iPhone buttons.
Bullshit. I use a netbook a lot and trust me, on a 10" screen those targets are small if I had to use my fingers rather than a mouse. Much smaller than an iPhone button.
Yes, the start button is the same size as an iphone button. The targets in the menus are half the height. The scroll bar is a relatively thin target MUCH smaller than the way you scroll on the iPhone. The Up/Down arrows on controls are HALF the 3/4 height of the average iPhone button looking at MS Word (Page Layout tab...for indent and spacing) on my netbook. The button to access additional hidden items on the ribbon is tiny. Maybe a dozen pixels wide and high. Iphone buttons tend to have significant vertical spacing. On the Word ribbon bar controls are stacked with 2 pixel vertical spacing.
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If accurate capacitive touch can let you control a paint brush cursor on an iPhone then it can let you press an average sized play button on a 10" slate.
Yeah, sure, if I invoke 4x zoom. And you're not just pressing "an average sized play button" but interacting with desktop apps. Unless you want to discount those apps with controls smaller than "an average sized play button". In which case the iPad will have a larger selection of usable apps than the HP slate.
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There's also the option of using a cursor that you drag around like in the Money Island iphone game. It's actually not that bad and generally preferred for drawing so that your fingers don't get in the way.
Because you're an artist with a new yorker cover to comment what does and doesn't work well on a touch screen and is "preferred". By whom? Using what program? On what system?
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Yes but not very well and they still had virtual memory (hard drive based scratch).
You can have VM on an iPhone but it leads to excessive flash wear. That implies that the HP slate also won't have VM or will suffer from reduced flash life.
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When people start getting paid to do it on a regular basis, I will accept it as significant. Until then, it's a one-off marketing gimmick. To say that you can't get more "high-end in graphics" than painting with 4 layers on a 420 x 280 canvas, well it answers itself really.
FUD.
You haven't looked at the art from Brushes or you're simply troll. A mod troll...bizzare.
There are 15000 pieces on Brushes Flicker. Many are stunningly good. Far more than your trollishly dismissive 420x280x4 layers meme. There are many professional artist that have used Brushes to make some really nice pieces and none look like 420x280.
These are effectively thumbnails. Download the free viewer and export them as 6x TIFF and they look just as good at 1920x2880.
you used that link to show there are better examples of tablets and you wonder why the apple is going to outsell them all and most likely in 3 months?
those things are atrocious and running VISTA?! and XP? are you freakin kidding me? that is a pro? and those things use a pen stylus...never meant to be multitouch, and never will...
who wants to lug a pen around an already bulky contraption that will certainly need a power cord when leaving the house...because those things are bricks that need power outlets..
Not better in fact I have always said that Tablets are a hard sell and even to date only account for about 2-4% of the market. Simply showing that Tablets are nothing new.
Won't be faster than an ATOM? In what machine? Are you seriously blinded by the 1GHz vs. 1.6 GHz numbers?
Wait, you're asking if I'm blinded because I think a 1.6GHz Atom is faster than a 1GHz Cortex A8?
The 1.6GHz Atom is faster than a 1.5GHz Powerbook G4 according to benchmarks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
You are spreading FEAR by introducing UNCERTAINTY that the iPad will be able to be used by artists to make serious drawings and paintings by DOUBTing that the iPad will have sufficient memory and CPU resources to do the job.
I'm just saying it has constraints that haven't been on computer systems for 10+ years that people will have to workaround. When you start to add colors and have them separate from the sketch outlines, you can quickly exceed 4 layers.
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Originally Posted by vinea
Never mind that you can make New Yorker covers using Brushes on the iPod Touch/iPhone...
There are better examples than the New Yorker. That association doesn't really make those images better.
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Originally Posted by vinea
If the minimum for desktops is 512MB and the iOS overhead is lower than the OS X overhead AND the app is slimmed down then there is NO FRIGGING DOUBT THAT 512MB will be adequate.
Funny how you said exactly what you quoted me saying but still managed to argue about it.
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Originally Posted by vinea
You will have to provide a citation that it is limited to 4 layers because of "uh resource limitations"
Brushes appears to be going with the lower limit so it has one version for the 2G, 3G and 3GS.
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Originally Posted by vinea
You'll have to show a citation for a 420x280 canvas size.
6x zoom is 54 x 36. This means 1x is 324 x 216. It goes to 70% though so at best it's a 420 x 280 native canvas with 4 layers.
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Originally Posted by vinea
Nada except that you don't understand that doubling the size doesn't double the memory requirements to store it but quads it
I based it on Brushes using the 128MB limit - quad = 512MB. If it's based on the 256MB then it would be 1GB, which is why I mentioned both.
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Originally Posted by vinea
Which brushes doesn't do anyway since it is a vector drawing program...
So I suppose a vector program doesn't need to rasterize the strokes to a bitmap layer in RAM for it to show on screen? Vectors only save space when you save them to file because you're not recording pixels. If this weren't the case Illustrator and Indesign wouldn't be two of the biggest resource hogs of any app.
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Originally Posted by vinea
I use a netbook a lot and trust me, on a 10" screen those targets are small if I had to use my fingers rather than a mouse. Much smaller than an iPhone button.
It depends on the resolution. I find them to be adequate at even 1280 x 800 on a 10". HP have a TouchSmart UI too though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
Because you're an artist with a new yorker cover to comment what does and doesn't work well on a touch screen and is "preferred". By whom? Using what program? On what system?
That's more or less how it works on a Wacom Cintiq and with larger separation how the other Wacoms work too, which last time I checked is pretty much what most artists uses to draw digitally. Even Brushes users as it happens (1:12):
You can have VM on an iPhone but it leads to excessive flash wear. That implies that the HP slate also won't have VM or will suffer from reduced flash life.
The HP Slate has a hard drive, may have an SSD option. Why would it use mobile storage? Do you know what FUD means, 'cos I think this qualifies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
You haven't looked at the art from Brushes
I saw the higher profile works and they didn't have much detail. Work like this stuff is very impressive though despite obviously working exactly to that size, which would be tricky if for example he wanted to extend the sword:
Artist used a capacitive stylus for it. If the iPad can support native resolution or just above with 6-12 layers then there shouldn't be many problems - like I say though, something as simple as extending the canvas may not be feasible or complex blending modes due to the processing.
If iPhone 4 does introduce 3rd party multi-tasking, 1GB would probably be needed for smooth running.
I'm just saying it has constraints that haven't been on computer systems for 10+ years that people will have to workaround. When you start to add colors and have them separate from the sketch outlines, you can quickly exceed 4 layers.
So netbooks with PIII performance with last gen Atoms are not computer systems? Because the 1.6Ghz Silverthorne Atom was about the same as a 1.13Ghz PIII tualatin. The dual core A9s will be faster than the last gen Atoms and the new ones aren't THAT much faster. So i guess running Win7 desktop apps on the HP Slate is going to really suxxor.
I'm using the single core Cortex A8 as the worst case scenario for the iPad, not the best case.
And ONE MORE TIME: The apps on the iPad are optimized for the mobile environment, unlike the Win7 apps that are optimized FOR THE DESKTOP.
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There are better examples than the New Yorker. That association doesn't really make those images better.
Right. Because being on the cover of any major magazine isn't significant or professional level artwork.
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Funny how you said exactly what you quoted me saying but still managed to argue about it.
Incorrect. You stated FUD that it "could probably cope" (uncertainty...the U in FUD) as opposed to what I said, which is there is NO DOUBT it will do well, especially given that we've seen the videos and have had first hand accounts that the iPad is amazingly fast.
Brushes appears to be going with the lower limit so it has one version for the 2G, 3G and 3GS.
Except that Brushes is vector and Sketchbook is raster bitmap. In any case, there should be much higher limits for the iPad for both Sketchbook and Brushes.
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6x zoom is 54 x 36. This means 1x is 324 x 216. It goes to 70% though so at best it's a 420 x 280 native canvas with 4 layers.
That's not a citation. That's bogus math intended to spread FUD.
"For instance, in comparison to SketchBook Mobile?s canvas size restrictions, Brushes and Layers can both use canvases several thousand pixels long or wide. They also allow for more layers, but only 4 and 5, respectively"
See the link? I'm asking for a source that is not you. Answer: You don't have a citation because you simply made up the 420x280 number.
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I based it on Brushes using the 128MB limit - quad = 512MB. If it's based on the 256MB then it would be 1GB, which is why I mentioned both.
Given you don't know how much RAM Brushes uses and how it uses them you have no clue what the iPad might have or why the zoom limits are in place. So it is conjecture to paint the fear that iPad has too little memory for serious tasks despite all evidence to the contrary (performance of apps on the 3GS, demonstration of apps on the iPad, etc).
Also known as FUD.
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So I suppose a vector program doesn't need to rasterize the strokes to a bitmap layer in RAM for it to show on screen? Vectors only save space when you save them to file because you're not recording pixels. If this weren't the case Illustrator and Indesign wouldn't be two of the biggest resource hogs of any app.
You do need to rasterize but only for the visible display area. Ever hear of clipping? No? Try Google.
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It depends on the resolution. I find them to be adequate at even 1280 x 800 on a 10". HP have a TouchSmart UI too though.
You're using a multi-touch interface today on 10" HP tablet for win7 desktop apps like Word? Really?
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That's more or less how it works on a Wacom Cintiq and with larger separation how the other Wacoms work too, which last time I checked is pretty much what most artists uses to draw digitally. Even Brushes users as it happens (1:12):
I have a Cintiq and the cursor is directly under the stylus JUST LIKE IN THE VIDEO. The stylus tip is whitish and a little hard to see in that video at 1:12.
Don't take my word for it:
"Larger standard tablets will allow for such motion but again the confidence you gain from the immediate feedback of placing your pen at the origin of the stroke is invaluable!"
The whole point of the Cintiq is that you can draw on it like paper with no offset from nib to image. The nib even is designed to give a better feel with a little more drag. Introducing an artificial offset would be idiotic given that the pen does not obscure the screen any more than a normal pen does to paper. Which you would know, if say, you have used one.
Offset in normal wacom tablets sure as hell aren't "preferred"
"This offset can be overcome with a modicum of hand eye coordination and practice but it remains an unfortunate hindrance. Despite their superiority over the mouse working with tablets was still fundamentally clumsy."
from the same blog post.
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The HP Slate has a hard drive, may have an SSD option. Why would it use mobile storage? Do you know what FUD means, 'cos I think this qualifies.
Given that HP has not released specs and no one has said it has a HDD and given that it intends to be a thin (sorta) tablet why wouldn't it have a SSD? Do you have a source that says it has a HDD? I asked for a link about user installable memory too.
If it has a HDD it will have VM but also run slower than if it runs on a SSD. That's hardly a great trade.
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I saw the higher profile works and they didn't have much detail. Work like this stuff is very impressive though despite obviously working exactly to that size, which would be tricky if for example he wanted to extend the sword:
So you're saying that image lacks DETAIL? In comparison to what?
The composition of the piece is the composition of the piece. Yes, Brushes simplifies to a specific aspect ratio.
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Artist used a capacitive stylus for it. If the iPad can support native resolution or just above with 6-12 layers then there shouldn't be many problems - like I say though, something as simple as extending the canvas may not be feasible or complex blending modes due to the processing.
Right, because it can't be done on the iPhone either. Except wait...Autodesk Sketches already does that on the 3GS.
FUD. "May not be feasible" my ass.
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If iPhone 4 does introduce 3rd party multi-tasking, 1GB would probably be needed for smooth running.
Gosh batman...no 1 GB RAM and still looked pretty good.
Ohh...look...another one:
"Testing out Multifl0w has served as an excellent reminder of just how incredibly solid and powerful the iPhone 3GS is, and how eminently capable of multitasking it is.
I started out running 6-7 apps for a while ? things like Evernote, Things, Tweetie, Newsstand, Mail, 1Password, and Analytics App. Zero noticeable lag, slowdown, or performance hit.
For most of the time I?ve been testing, I?ve been running 10 to 12 apps at a time ? with most of the above apps in the mix, plus a couple of games (Paper Toss and Scramble 2), the Kindle app, RSS Player, BuddyFeed, and Safari with 4 pages open. And I still saw no slowness or lag, though at the 12 apps mark I did get a few crashes from the Scramble app. The rest of the apps have just kept sailing along ? and are still doing so as I write."
More FUD. When Apple enables 3rd party multitasking on the iPad it'll work just fine and while it probably will have 1GB RAM even 512MB looks fine given how snappy it currently is and how well the 256MB 3GS does.
Jeez, why do you KEEP claiming that the iPad won't be able to do what the 3GS already can? And THEN claiming that your doubts aren't FUD?
I'm using the single core Cortex A8 as the worst case scenario for the iPad, not the best case.
I'm using the 1.6GHz Atom as the worst case for the HP. It may be a dual core Atom. It could be a ULV Core-series chip but it's unlikely due to price.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
That's not a citation. That's bogus math intended to spread FUD.
It's from the Brushes user manual.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
See the link? I'm asking for a source that is not you. Answer: You don't have a citation because you simply made up the 420x280 number.
Ah, so you value the opinions of internet strangers over your own logic. That link you pointed to is wrong . The export canvases are large. the drawing canvases are small - just open Photoshop and check your RAM usage drawing on various image sizes (oh and before you do the whole 'it's not mobile optimized', images use the same on any device). It's not rocket science. But here's a link if you prefer:
"Layers allows you to work with a rectangular canvas of 320x480 pixels, or a square canvas of 512x512 pixels, and up to five layers."
Maybe you should send the developers a link from Google about clipping as they clearly haven't heard about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
Introducing an artificial offset would be idiotic given that the pen does not obscure the screen any more than a normal pen does to paper. Which you would know, if say, you have used one.
It does due to the glass layer but it only requires a small offset. We're talking about finger use on the iPad and an offset being preferred. But by all means don't take my word for it. Here's a post from a Brushes user in the last link I posted:
"Thanks everybody! and yes strictly done with Brushes, no post work on any other soft. Done with the POGO stylus and a lot of 800% zooms to compensate for the lack of offset on the brush"
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
Given that HP has not released specs and no one has said it has a HDD and given that it intends to be a thin (sorta) tablet why wouldn't it have a SSD? Do you have a source that says it has a HDD?
It doesn't matter if it's SSD or HDD, SSD isn't the same as the mobile Flash memory in the iPad. Plus it has to be one or the other to support a desktop OS. It will likely be 1.8" storage.
That statement has been shown to be wrong again and again, so why keep repeating it?
Mac Cube
iPod*
iPod socks
iPod Hi-Fi
AppleTV
*When iPod was introduced in 2001, it was Mac-only. At the time, there were probably less than 20m Mac users (they'd sold 13.8m Macs over the previous four years). During the 3 quarters that the iPod was Mac-only, Apple sold 236000 units. Some fan base that was.
I'm proud to have bought a first generation 5GB iPod, knowing exactly what it was (by far the smallest HD-based MP3 player available at the time) and what it could do (hold 100 of my favorite CD's, immediately improving the quality of my life). I am surprised to hear that there were so few of us who knew its true potential.
I'm buying the first generation iPad, knowing exactly what it is. A big iPod Touch, which is EXACTLY what I want.
It is readily accepted that since you were/are in the playground, when you resort to 'I know you are but what am I?' the argument is lost.
Better luck next time. ;-)
Thats the main issue with Apple fanboys like you they look at everything as an arguement if you don't agree with them. We don't argue we simple debate. Remember you cast the first stone I was simply showing how stupid you looked doing so.
I'm proud to have bought a first generation 5GB iPod, knowing exactly what it was (by far the smallest HD-based MP3 player available at the time) and what it could do (hold 500 of my favorite CD's, immediately improving the quality of my life). I am surprised to hear that there were so few of us who knew its true potential.
I'm buying the first generation iPad, knowing exactly what it is. A big iPod Touch, which is EXACTLY what I want.
Exactly. Why wouldn't people want it. The only thing wrong with the current iPod touch is that its too damn small...problem solved.
Thats the main issue with Apple fanboys like you they look at everything as an arguement if you don't agree with them. We don't argue we simple debate. Remember you cast the first stone I was simply showing how stupid you looked doing so.
If you resort to name calling... Apple Fanboys... and consider that that's "all" people are around here, then WHY are YOU here?
To pick fights? Make inane comments? Sling insults? Support the indefensible?
I simply fail to understand why you would hang around here and make over 1200 comments since 2006 if you (seemingly) loathe Apple, the Mac and Mac users?
I suggest that the problem clearly does not lie with the posters here or the Macintosh or Mac OS X or the iPad, iPhone, the iPod touch or even Satan's spawn, Steve Jobs.
I'm using the 1.6GHz Atom as the worst case for the HP. It may be a dual core Atom. It could be a ULV Core-series chip but it's unlikely due to price.
There's no reason to assume the worst for the slate. It has to run win7, go ahead and assume the best case. it doesn't matter that much given that iOS is far more efficient than win7 because it is designed for a mobile environment. Windows Phone 7 is a far better contender for the slate than the desktop win7 but then you lose the primary advantage of being on the Atom...Windows app.
That's not a bad trade given that many Windows apps will perform poorly anyway without a keyboard and mouse.
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It's from the Brushes user manual.
That would have been easier than the bogus math. I looked briefly can you tell me where in the manual?
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Ah, so you value the opinions of internet strangers over your own logic.
No, I value the statements of others over YOUR logic.
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That link you pointed to is wrong . The export canvases are large. the drawing canvases are small - just open Photoshop and check your RAM usage drawing on various image sizes (oh and before you do the whole 'it's not mobile optimized', images use the same on any device). It's not rocket science. But here's a link if you prefer:
1024x768 canvas = 786432 bytes x 2 (for 16 bits) = ~1.6MB x 5 layers = ~8MB.
Canvas size is not really THAT a huge memory user. Photoshop uses a lot of memory for what it does and it can handle 30K x 30K imagery...which would be about 900M.
"Layers allows you to work with a rectangular canvas of 320x480 pixels, or a square canvas of 512x512 pixels, and up to five layers."
Maybe you should send the developers a link from Google about clipping as they clearly haven't heard about it.
That's Layers and I don't recall if it is vector or raster. 512x512 = 262144 or 256KB.
Perhaps you can explain how different a drawing canvas is in comparison to a map canvas? And yet, somehow, I'm able to pan and zoom across a huge canvas in my GPS apps. Gee, is it because they only load the image areas they need?
And yes, I've written a simple drawing app to draw overlays on a map canvas and stored as vectors (strokes). The memory use for the drawing itself is driven by the points stored and the line data.
A line 10 pixels long takes the same space as a line 10000 pixels long.
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It does due to the glass layer but it only requires a small offset.
The glass offset is an artifact, not a feature.
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We're talking about finger use on the iPad and an offset being preferred. But by all means don't take my word for it. Here's a post from a Brushes user in the last link I posted:
"Thanks everybody! and yes strictly done with Brushes, no post work on any other soft. Done with the POGO stylus and a lot of 800% zooms to compensate for the lack of offset on the brush"
A POGO stylus is rather thick. Brushes was designed for a finger and there is no offset. The point is that YOU states that an offset was DESIRED even for things like the Cintiq. It is not.
The desire for a stylus is for finer detail work as you can do with a pen on paper vs say...a finger or brush. Having a pen about the same thickness of a finger doesn't help that much with that so zoom is desired. The offset isn't DESIRED as much as a work around when you do not have the same fine control of a fine tip. You can't SEE the fine line being drawn if the stylus is as thick as an unsharpened pencil. With a sharpened pencil (or stylus) then you do not need or want an offset from the drawing tip to the paper.
As it applies to the slate vs ipad, if the HP slate doesn't have a digitizer then it won't be any better than the iPad for artists desiring to draw fine lines directly.
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It doesn't matter if it's SSD or HDD, SSD isn't the same as the mobile Flash memory in the iPad. Plus it has to be one or the other to support a desktop OS. It will likely be 1.8" storage.
I showed this to be false to Mel a long long time ago by showing the exact same flash chips from images of the iPod Nano and the Samsung SSD they were selling. Same part numbers on the flash modules can be seen in both.
SOME SSD are different (SLC) but they tend to be much more expensive than their mass market MLC counterparts. For example the Intel X-25Ms are MLC.
The odds that the HP Slate will be using SLC SSDs is very remote.
That would have been easier than the bogus math. I looked briefly can you tell me where in the manual?
The 'bogus' math came from the manual. They have a screenshot at 600%, count the pixel blocks and scale it up to get the native canvas resolution. Zoom in on your iPhone or iPod and count the blocks if you prefer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
1024x768 canvas = 786432 bytes x 2 (for 16 bits) = ~1.6MB x 5 layers = ~8MB.
Canvas size is not really THAT a huge memory user.
I know, it's down to how the program stores information. 1024 x 768 x 32 bits per pixel = 3MB per image. If it stores say 10 levels of undo and the undo steps require a bitmap stored per level then it's 30MB. Stroke path recording is different but memory usage depends on the number of strokes and vertices per stroke.
If they add effects like full layer blur and blending modes, the memory usage goes up, same with transforms. You can't really re-rasterize hundreds of strokes every time you move or zoom on such a slow device.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
That's Layers and I don't recall if it is vector or raster.
They're both vector and the statements from the source you value over my explanation said you could have canvases several thousand pixels wide in both Layers and Brushes and was wrong. You just need to open the app to see this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
Perhaps you can explain how different a drawing canvas is in comparison to a map canvas?
An exported image can be rasterized at a higher resolution if you store stroke paths. A drawing canvas is limited to the device resources and limits the drawing precision. The hi-res exported canvas in Brushes is being rasterized on a desktop/laptop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
And yet, somehow, I'm able to pan and zoom across a huge canvas in my GPS apps. Gee, is it because they only load the image areas they need?
Yeah but you can't change the images. I'm aware of the fact that you only need to load screen contents in some scenarios and it keeps memory usage low but if it was the case in image editing apps, Photoshop or Illustrator if you want a vector example would only ever use about 100MB of RAM. They don't.
The real issue I have is nothing to do with Brushes though, it's why have Apple not bothered to release the RAM spec? The thread is about preorder numbers. What if Apple turn round and say the iPad has 256MB RAM at launch? RAM is very important and while the demos shown were fluid, all demos are. The Brushes guy showed a single image, one layer, two brush strokes.
I think people should have a right to know what they are paying for.
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Originally Posted by vinea
A line 10 pixels long takes the same space as a line 10000 pixels long.
A straight line.
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Originally Posted by vinea
The glass offset is an artifact, not a feature.
Brush offset is the feature to compensate for the glass offset.
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Originally Posted by vinea
A POGO stylus is rather thick. Brushes was designed for a finger and there is no offset.
The brushes user who made the detailed artwork had to use a POGO because there was no offset on the brush.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
The point is that YOU states that an offset was DESIRED even for things like the Cintiq. It is not.
It is when there's a glass offset. In general it's not desired at all - ideal is the sharpened pencil to paper you mentioned but you don't get that digitally yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
The odds that the HP Slate will be using SLC SSDs is very remote.
It's not really and it doesn't matter if it's SLC or MLC, they still have wear-leveling and about 5-10x faster transfer rates than mobile device storage. And HDD takes away any issues about Flash wear.
The 'bogus' math came from the manual. They have a screenshot at 600%, count the pixel blocks and scale it up to get the native canvas resolution. Zoom in on your iPhone or iPod and count the blocks if you prefer.
That isn't a definitive statement so you're still guessing.
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I know, it's down to how the program stores information. 1024 x 768 x 32 bits per pixel = 3MB per image. If it stores say 10 levels of undo and the undo steps require a bitmap stored per level then it's 30MB. Stroke path recording is different but memory usage depends on the number of strokes and vertices per stroke.
Except it doesn't store a longword per pixel and it doesn't store a complete image per undo because that would be stupid for a vector based drawing program.
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If they add effects like full layer blur and blending modes, the memory usage goes up, same with transforms. You can't really re-rasterize hundreds of strokes every time you move or zoom on such a slow device.
And you know this how? More FUD that the iPod Touch/iPhone is too "slow" to do X. Especially given that we KNOW you can rasterize hundreds of strokes per refresh...unless you believe that no app currently draws hundreds of polylines or 3D shapes.
You DO realize there IS a GPU on the iPhone right?
Quote:
They're both vector and the statements from the source you value over my explanation said you could have canvases several thousand pixels wide in both Layers and Brushes and was wrong. You just need to open the app to see this.
It seems no less than 320x480 from the reviews. It exports 2K images. I'm not going to spend $5 just to see. In any case the burden of proof is on you given you're using this in some bogus method to FUD that the iPad will have too little RAM to be for artists.
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Yeah but you can't change the images. I'm aware of the fact that you only need to load screen contents in some scenarios and it keeps memory usage low but if it was the case in image editing apps, Photoshop or Illustrator if you want a vector example would only ever use about 100MB of RAM. They don't.
Photoshop and Illustrator are large because of all the capabilities they have, not just the canvas size. As shown the canvas memory footprint is all THAT big a contributor.
You CAN tile any image and clip to limit the CPU and memory footprint. Changing the image means re-rasterizing the affected tiles for the new stroke. I do this for redrawing individual map tiles to render large numbers of polygons (user drawn overlays) rather than rendering each polygon in 3D space and drape it on the map as a layer.
Yeah and verily even on old PIII machines with Intel integrated GPUs because some of our users still have these.
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The real issue I have is nothing to do with Brushes though, it's why have Apple not bothered to release the RAM spec?
Because Apple is a secretive company?
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The thread is about preorder numbers.
This part of the thread is about you spreading FUD that the iPad won't be a good tool for artists.
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What if Apple turn round and say the iPad has 256MB RAM at launch?
Then it is 256MB. THEN you have something to rant about that isn't FUD.
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RAM is very important and while the demos shown were fluid, all demos are. The Brushes guy showed a single image, one layer, two brush strokes.
And all those folks that got to play with the iPad and were impressed by the speed are all idiots and fooled by smoke and mirrors.
Specs are nice but usable power is more important.
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I think people should have a right to know what they are paying for.
i think people should know what is a fact and what is FUD spread by someone that doesn't like the product.
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A straight line.
ANY line. If it has the same number of vertices whether straight or not it will have the same memory footprint REGARDLESS of segment length.
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Brush offset is the feature to compensate for the glass offset.
No, you calibrate in order to minimize the offset cause by the glass. The applications assume you're drawing on the pixel the digitizer says you're on.
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The brushes user who made the detailed artwork had to use a POGO because there was no offset on the brush.
Citation. Folks that use POGO want the fine dexterity that a stylus offers over a finger because more folks are used to writing/drawing with one. Given that there is no offset THERE IS LITTLE DIFFERENCE between a POGO and a finger in terms of obscuring fine detail work. So your assertion makes no sense.
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It is when there's a glass offset. In general it's not desired at all - ideal is the sharpened pencil to paper you mentioned but you don't get that digitally yet.
The glass offset is small. YOU think it's large because in the video you can't actually see the white tip. In most cases there is no visible offset. Only toward extreme angles is it visible.
Nice backtracking. Now, in general it's not desired at all...
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and it doesn't matter if it's SLC or MLC,
Except that SLC lasts 5 times as long as MLC so this is a false statement. Plus SLC is faster. MLC cheaper.
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they still have wear-leveling
Wear leveling is pretty much implemented for all flash. Yes, even for the ones in a lowly iPod. Some implementations are better than others.
That isn't a definitive statement so you're still guessing.
I'm not going to spend $5 just to see.
You're the one guessing. I actually have the program.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
It seems no less than 320x480 from the reviews.
But is it anywhere near several thousand pixels? No, because that was FUD to make the iPad look like it can do the same as a laptop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
You CAN tile any image and clip to limit the CPU and memory footprint. Changing the image means re-rasterizing the affected tiles for the new stroke. I do this for redrawing individual map tiles to render large numbers of polygons (user drawn overlays) rather than rendering each polygon in 3D space and drape it on the map as a layer.
So why not make an iPhone drawing app? If the other apps are limited to small canvases and you can make almost infinite ones, you'd make a lot of money. If your tile size is iPhone resolution, you'd be able to make an app with 20-30 layers and infinite drawing space. Add some filters and you'll easily outsell Brushes.
In fact, make one for the desktop too. Take on Photoshop and let digital texture artists paint gigapixel textures while using only the current tile amount in RAM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
Because Apple is a secretive company?
So secretive they let us know the dimensions, clock speed, storage amount, ports, accessories, aesthetics and even let people get hands-on demos? Yeah, they better keep the RAM under wraps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
This part of the thread is about you spreading FUD that the iPad won't be a good tool for artists.
It won't be a great tool as it has no pressure sensitivity. I'm pointing out that a small RAM amount has very real limitations as it does in any computer and it's more important when you start dealing with multi-tasking and more fully fledged apps on a larger screen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
The glass offset is small. YOU think it's large because in the video you can't actually see the white tip.
I didn't say it was large, the Cintiq at my work has a small offset but without it the pen obscures the brush tip. A POGO and finger both obscure the point much worse, so an offset would be preferred. Why would you prefer no offset when your finger is in the way?
You're the one guessing. I actually have the program.
Then why didn't you know how big you can export images? Or how big the canvas size was without guessing?
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But is it anywhere near several thousand pixels? No, because that was FUD to make the iPad look like it can do the same as a laptop.
It's what was posted in a review. In any case, the bottom line is it tells you ZERO about the iPad memory size. The iPad isn't the same as a laptop but is still very capable. Probably as capable or more than your vaunted HP Slate in real world use.
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So why not make an iPhone drawing app? If the other apps are limited to small canvases and you can make almost infinite ones, you'd make a lot of money. If your tile size is iPhone resolution, you'd be able to make an app with 20-30 layers and infinite drawing space. Add some filters and you'll easily outsell Brushes.
First, I don't know ObjC all that well yet and second, good apps are all in the details. Especially ones for Apple users. I simply don't have the time to make an app as polished as Brushes appears to be.
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So secretive they let us know the dimensions, clock speed, storage amount, ports, accessories, aesthetics and even let people get hands-on demos? Yeah, they better keep the RAM under wraps.
So tell me more about the A4. Is it a cortex A8 or a A9? How many cores? Oh wait...
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It won't be a great tool as it has no pressure sensitivity.
And the HP Slate is unlikely to have a digitizer either.
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I'm pointing out that a small RAM amount has very real limitations as it does in any computer and it's more important when you start dealing with multi-tasking and more fully fledged apps on a larger screen.
And less because it's running on a mobile OS vs Win7.
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I didn't say it was large, the Cintiq at my work has a small offset but without it the pen obscures the brush tip. A POGO and finger both obscure the point much worse, so an offset would be preferred. Why would you prefer no offset when your finger is in the way?
If an offset was really desired by Brushes users it's easy to program in. Do you really think he can't do that?
If your Cintiq has a small offset you should recalibrate it. The cursor/crosshair center should be exactly where the pen tip is. Also given that you can hover with the stylus you can always see where the brush is before you put the pen down without obscuring the image below.
Then why didn't you know how big you can export images?
I don't have wifi at home so I never used the feature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
Or how big the canvas size was without guessing?
It doesn't tell you when you make a new canvas but you can see the blocks when you zoom in. It's easier to count on a screenshot though. I knew it was small but never bothered to count before you asked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
In any case, the bottom line is it tells you ZERO about the iPad memory size.
Obviously if there are limitations then it's because the developer has worked to the device constraints to ensure the program doesn't run out of memory and then fails to open the image up again. Like if you upload a 3k image to a shared server and you only get a fixed RAM allocation of 64MB per process, it can't even open the image.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
The iPad isn't the same as a laptop but is still very capable. Probably as capable or more than your vaunted HP Slate in real world use.
HP Slate will open at least a 5k canvas with at least 40 layers and be usable so no. It also has USB, a built-in camera, lots of storage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
First, I don't know ObjC all that well yet and second, good apps are all in the details. Especially ones for Apple users. I simply don't have the time to make an app as polished as Brushes appears to be.
Brushes doesn't have that many features. It doesn't even have any transform or cropping options.
You have 4 layers switched with a button, you have a brushes box with a 11 brushes and you can choose segment spacing, stroke width and opacity, an undo/redo with 10 steps, a dropper and a color picker. Then just a gallery of images that looks like the photo app. The brushes are just images repeated along the stroke path.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
So tell me more about the A4. Is it a cortex A8 or a A9? How many cores? Oh wait...
Single core 1GHz Cortex A8 is the best rumor so far.
The iPad has so many awesome things going for it, if Apple can pull off moderately priced TV, that will just be another huge feature to add to the list.
One quote in here is a little unnerving though. "nailing down the content has proven difficult as some potential collaborators weigh the advantages of working with Apple against the potential threats to their current sources of revenue."
That pretty much sums up what has kept the Apple TV from greatness. Hopefully Apple can strike a deal with content providers. Once it's on the iPad, then it's just a matter of time until they sign deals for Apple TV content. This will be huge.
Hopefully sooner than later.
Right on! Visual media for iPad and same media for AppleTV.
Comments
Right so 10x slower than what most Mac users are used to.
Running applications appropriately scaled to the hardware. I have every expectation that I can do my professional level briefings using the scaled down Keynote and given the movies I expect it to be snappy.
Don't really see what's FUD about that. They could include a decent amount of RAM but you have to think if they included a lot, they'd tell us and follow it with 'isn't that awesome?'. Given the fact they didn't, I reckon it will have 512MB RAM.
You are spreading FEAR by introducing UNCERTAINTY that the iPad will be able to be used by artists to make serious drawings and paintings by DOUBTing that the iPad will have sufficient memory and CPU resources to do the job.
Never mind that you can make New Yorker covers using Brushes on the iPod Touch/iPhone...
That is pure FUD. You don't know that the iPad has 512MB of RAM. You don't know that the iPad is too slow but proclaim that it will be 10x slower than what users are used to. Never mind that it's at least nearly TWICE as fast as the iPhone (1Ghz vs 600 Mhz) and the apps are not desktop apps.
Minimum requirements for iWork on the desktop are 512MB and 1GB recommended. An optimized version running on a currently non-multitasking OS and low footprint OS could probably cope with 512MB.
FUD.
- The OS multitasks. You know it. I know it. Everyone but trolls admit it. When 4.0 comes out it seems likely that even 3rd party apps will be allowed to run in background.
- The iWorks apps for the iPad have been optimized for the iPad hardware.
- If the minimum for desktops is 512MB and the iOS overhead is lower than the OS X overhead AND the app is slimmed down then there is NO FRIGGING DOUBT THAT 512MB will be adequate.
In any case, we did not see any beach balls or stuttering in the demos and THE USERS THAT GOT TO PLAY WITH THE IPAD ALL SAID IT WAS TEH SNAPPY.FUD.
If you read the Brushes spec, you will see you only get 4 layers because of the uh resource limitations.
You don't suppose Apple 'brushed' over that little detail for the purposes of marketing.
The native resolution of the paintings are also 420 x 280 but they record the strokes so I guess they can redraw them at a higher resolution on export. Doesn't change the fact that you're drawing on that canvas size though. Desktop painting is done at 2k or above.
- Layers was added in 2.0 so it is a relatively new feature for brushes.
- You will have to provide a citation that it is limited to 4 layers because of "uh resource limitations"
- Brushes can export the paintings at 1920x2880 and its a vector program. You'll have to show a citation for a 420x280 canvas size. Given the 16x zoom, if every on screen pixel is still modifiable then the canvas size is quite large.
All FUD points.Actually the Brushes demo is interesting because they note zooming in 32x as opposed to 16x for the iPhone so it's either 512MB or 1GB.
Gee...even assuming 420x280 and just doubling it:
420x280 = 117600 pixels
840x560 = 470400 pixels
That's ignoring that the iPad is 1024x768 rather than 480x320 so it's more than double if you actually use the native res of the panels as the starting point.
What does this show about the iPad RAM? Nada except that you don't understand that doubling the size doesn't double the memory requirements to store it but quads it. Which brushes doesn't do anyway since it is a vector drawing program...
More FUD.
It's rumored to come with 2GB RAM but if it comes with 1GB like some netbooks, 2GB is just a simple install away.
IF you can install it. Show a citation that the RAM is user modifiable.
No it doesn't. The touch parts of the slate would be for everything else that are better with touch but don't need pressure sensitivity.
Yes it does because where are you putting the pad? You're better off with a full sized win7 convertible at that point with a decent digitizer. At least then you could use it like a Cintiq.
That review is really from the videos, there's been no hands-on. The main issue they point out is the control sizes but desktop controls aren't really any smaller than iPhone buttons.
Bullshit. I use a netbook a lot and trust me, on a 10" screen those targets are small if I had to use my fingers rather than a mouse. Much smaller than an iPhone button.
Yes, the start button is the same size as an iphone button. The targets in the menus are half the height. The scroll bar is a relatively thin target MUCH smaller than the way you scroll on the iPhone. The Up/Down arrows on controls are HALF the 3/4 height of the average iPhone button looking at MS Word (Page Layout tab...for indent and spacing) on my netbook. The button to access additional hidden items on the ribbon is tiny. Maybe a dozen pixels wide and high. Iphone buttons tend to have significant vertical spacing. On the Word ribbon bar controls are stacked with 2 pixel vertical spacing.
If accurate capacitive touch can let you control a paint brush cursor on an iPhone then it can let you press an average sized play button on a 10" slate.
Yeah, sure, if I invoke 4x zoom.
There's also the option of using a cursor that you drag around like in the Money Island iphone game. It's actually not that bad and generally preferred for drawing so that your fingers don't get in the way.
Because you're an artist with a new yorker cover to comment what does and doesn't work well on a touch screen and is "preferred". By whom? Using what program? On what system?
Yes but not very well and they still had virtual memory (hard drive based scratch).
You can have VM on an iPhone but it leads to excessive flash wear. That implies that the HP slate also won't have VM or will suffer from reduced flash life.
When people start getting paid to do it on a regular basis, I will accept it as significant. Until then, it's a one-off marketing gimmick. To say that you can't get more "high-end in graphics" than painting with 4 layers on a 420 x 280 canvas, well it answers itself really.
FUD.
You haven't looked at the art from Brushes or you're simply troll. A mod troll...bizzare.
There are 15000 pieces on Brushes Flicker. Many are stunningly good. Far more than your trollishly dismissive 420x280x4 layers meme. There are many professional artist that have used Brushes to make some really nice pieces and none look like 420x280.
These are effectively thumbnails. Download the free viewer and export them as 6x TIFF and they look just as good at 1920x2880.
you used that link to show there are better examples of tablets and you wonder why the apple is going to outsell them all and most likely in 3 months?
those things are atrocious and running VISTA?! and XP? are you freakin kidding me? that is a pro? and those things use a pen stylus...never meant to be multitouch, and never will...
who wants to lug a pen around an already bulky contraption that will certainly need a power cord when leaving the house...because those things are bricks that need power outlets..
Not better in fact I have always said that Tablets are a hard sell and even to date only account for about 2-4% of the market. Simply showing that Tablets are nothing new.
Won't be faster than an ATOM? In what machine? Are you seriously blinded by the 1GHz vs. 1.6 GHz numbers?
Wait, you're asking if I'm blinded because I think a 1.6GHz Atom is faster than a 1GHz Cortex A8?
The 1.6GHz Atom is faster than a 1.5GHz Powerbook G4 according to benchmarks.
You are spreading FEAR by introducing UNCERTAINTY that the iPad will be able to be used by artists to make serious drawings and paintings by DOUBTing that the iPad will have sufficient memory and CPU resources to do the job.
I'm just saying it has constraints that haven't been on computer systems for 10+ years that people will have to workaround. When you start to add colors and have them separate from the sketch outlines, you can quickly exceed 4 layers.
Never mind that you can make New Yorker covers using Brushes on the iPod Touch/iPhone...
There are better examples than the New Yorker. That association doesn't really make those images better.
If the minimum for desktops is 512MB and the iOS overhead is lower than the OS X overhead AND the app is slimmed down then there is NO FRIGGING DOUBT THAT 512MB will be adequate.
Funny how you said exactly what you quoted me saying but still managed to argue about it.
You will have to provide a citation that it is limited to 4 layers because of "uh resource limitations"
Autodesk Sketchbook:
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet...12&id=13872203
iPhone 3GS Canvas size 1024x682 - 6 Layers
iPhone 2G, 3G Canvas size 600x400 3 Layers
Brushes appears to be going with the lower limit so it has one version for the 2G, 3G and 3GS.
You'll have to show a citation for a 420x280 canvas size.
6x zoom is 54 x 36. This means 1x is 324 x 216. It goes to 70% though so at best it's a 420 x 280 native canvas with 4 layers.
Nada except that you don't understand that doubling the size doesn't double the memory requirements to store it but quads it
I based it on Brushes using the 128MB limit - quad = 512MB. If it's based on the 256MB then it would be 1GB, which is why I mentioned both.
Which brushes doesn't do anyway since it is a vector drawing program...
So I suppose a vector program doesn't need to rasterize the strokes to a bitmap layer in RAM for it to show on screen? Vectors only save space when you save them to file because you're not recording pixels. If this weren't the case Illustrator and Indesign wouldn't be two of the biggest resource hogs of any app.
I use a netbook a lot and trust me, on a 10" screen those targets are small if I had to use my fingers rather than a mouse. Much smaller than an iPhone button.
It depends on the resolution. I find them to be adequate at even 1280 x 800 on a 10". HP have a TouchSmart UI too though.
Because you're an artist with a new yorker cover to comment what does and doesn't work well on a touch screen and is "preferred". By whom? Using what program? On what system?
That's more or less how it works on a Wacom Cintiq and with larger separation how the other Wacoms work too, which last time I checked is pretty much what most artists uses to draw digitally. Even Brushes users as it happens (1:12):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ4C9zmStjU
You can have VM on an iPhone but it leads to excessive flash wear. That implies that the HP slate also won't have VM or will suffer from reduced flash life.
The HP Slate has a hard drive, may have an SSD option. Why would it use mobile storage? Do you know what FUD means, 'cos I think this qualifies.
You haven't looked at the art from Brushes
I saw the higher profile works and they didn't have much detail. Work like this stuff is very impressive though despite obviously working exactly to that size, which would be tricky if for example he wanted to extend the sword:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/3668391...7616136519426/
Artist used a capacitive stylus for it. If the iPad can support native resolution or just above with 6-12 layers then there shouldn't be many problems - like I say though, something as simple as extending the canvas may not be feasible or complex blending modes due to the processing.
If iPhone 4 does introduce 3rd party multi-tasking, 1GB would probably be needed for smooth running.
I'm just saying it has constraints that haven't been on computer systems for 10+ years that people will have to workaround. When you start to add colors and have them separate from the sketch outlines, you can quickly exceed 4 layers.
So netbooks with PIII performance with last gen Atoms are not computer systems? Because the 1.6Ghz Silverthorne Atom was about the same as a 1.13Ghz PIII tualatin. The dual core A9s will be faster than the last gen Atoms and the new ones aren't THAT much faster. So i guess running Win7 desktop apps on the HP Slate is going to really suxxor.
I'm using the single core Cortex A8 as the worst case scenario for the iPad, not the best case.
And ONE MORE TIME: The apps on the iPad are optimized for the mobile environment, unlike the Win7 apps that are optimized FOR THE DESKTOP.
There are better examples than the New Yorker. That association doesn't really make those images better.
Right. Because being on the cover of any major magazine isn't significant or professional level artwork.
Funny how you said exactly what you quoted me saying but still managed to argue about it.
Incorrect. You stated FUD that it "could probably cope" (uncertainty...the U in FUD) as opposed to what I said, which is there is NO DOUBT it will do well, especially given that we've seen the videos and have had first hand accounts that the iPad is amazingly fast.
Autodesk Sketchbook:
Which isn't Brushes. Nice try.
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet...12&id=13872203
iPhone 3GS Canvas size 1024x682 - 6 Layers
iPhone 2G, 3G Canvas size 600x400 3 Layers
Brushes appears to be going with the lower limit so it has one version for the 2G, 3G and 3GS.
Except that Brushes is vector and Sketchbook is raster bitmap. In any case, there should be much higher limits for the iPad for both Sketchbook and Brushes.
6x zoom is 54 x 36. This means 1x is 324 x 216. It goes to 70% though so at best it's a 420 x 280 native canvas with 4 layers.
That's not a citation. That's bogus math intended to spread FUD.
"For instance, in comparison to SketchBook Mobile?s canvas size restrictions, Brushes and Layers can both use canvases several thousand pixels long or wide. They also allow for more layers, but only 4 and 5, respectively"
http://digital-painting-software-rev...pod-touch.html
See the link? I'm asking for a source that is not you. Answer: You don't have a citation because you simply made up the 420x280 number.
I based it on Brushes using the 128MB limit - quad = 512MB. If it's based on the 256MB then it would be 1GB, which is why I mentioned both.
Given you don't know how much RAM Brushes uses and how it uses them you have no clue what the iPad might have or why the zoom limits are in place. So it is conjecture to paint the fear that iPad has too little memory for serious tasks despite all evidence to the contrary (performance of apps on the 3GS, demonstration of apps on the iPad, etc).
Also known as FUD.
So I suppose a vector program doesn't need to rasterize the strokes to a bitmap layer in RAM for it to show on screen? Vectors only save space when you save them to file because you're not recording pixels. If this weren't the case Illustrator and Indesign wouldn't be two of the biggest resource hogs of any app.
You do need to rasterize but only for the visible display area. Ever hear of clipping? No? Try Google.
It depends on the resolution. I find them to be adequate at even 1280 x 800 on a 10". HP have a TouchSmart UI too though.
You're using a multi-touch interface today on 10" HP tablet for win7 desktop apps like Word? Really?
That's more or less how it works on a Wacom Cintiq and with larger separation how the other Wacoms work too, which last time I checked is pretty much what most artists uses to draw digitally. Even Brushes users as it happens (1:12):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ4C9zmStjU
I have a Cintiq and the cursor is directly under the stylus JUST LIKE IN THE VIDEO. The stylus tip is whitish and a little hard to see in that video at 1:12.
Don't take my word for it:
"Larger standard tablets will allow for such motion but again the confidence you gain from the immediate feedback of placing your pen at the origin of the stroke is invaluable!"
Not offset by some value. Right at the origin.
http://art-liberty.com/blog/2009-02-28-10
The whole point of the Cintiq is that you can draw on it like paper with no offset from nib to image. The nib even is designed to give a better feel with a little more drag. Introducing an artificial offset would be idiotic given that the pen does not obscure the screen any more than a normal pen does to paper. Which you would know, if say, you have used one.
Offset in normal wacom tablets sure as hell aren't "preferred"
"This offset can be overcome with a modicum of hand eye coordination and practice but it remains an unfortunate hindrance. Despite their superiority over the mouse working with tablets was still fundamentally clumsy."
from the same blog post.
The HP Slate has a hard drive, may have an SSD option. Why would it use mobile storage? Do you know what FUD means, 'cos I think this qualifies.
Given that HP has not released specs and no one has said it has a HDD and given that it intends to be a thin (sorta) tablet why wouldn't it have a SSD? Do you have a source that says it has a HDD? I asked for a link about user installable memory too.
If it has a HDD it will have VM but also run slower than if it runs on a SSD. That's hardly a great trade.
I saw the higher profile works and they didn't have much detail. Work like this stuff is very impressive though despite obviously working exactly to that size, which would be tricky if for example he wanted to extend the sword:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/3668391...7616136519426/
So you're saying that image lacks DETAIL? In comparison to what?
The composition of the piece is the composition of the piece. Yes, Brushes simplifies to a specific aspect ratio.
Artist used a capacitive stylus for it. If the iPad can support native resolution or just above with 6-12 layers then there shouldn't be many problems - like I say though, something as simple as extending the canvas may not be feasible or complex blending modes due to the processing.
Right, because it can't be done on the iPhone either. Except wait...Autodesk Sketches already does that on the 3GS.
FUD. "May not be feasible" my ass.
If iPhone 4 does introduce 3rd party multi-tasking, 1GB would probably be needed for smooth running.
Here's someone with a jailbroken 3GS running
Applications:
Weathereye
Random Facts
Chalky
Google App
Phone
Mail
Games:
Assassin?s Creed
Metal Gear Solid Touch
Real Racing
http://www.funkyspacemonkey.com/mult...wer-iphone-3gs
Gosh batman...no 1 GB RAM and still looked pretty good.
Ohh...look...another one:
"Testing out Multifl0w has served as an excellent reminder of just how incredibly solid and powerful the iPhone 3GS is, and how eminently capable of multitasking it is.
I started out running 6-7 apps for a while ? things like Evernote, Things, Tweetie, Newsstand, Mail, 1Password, and Analytics App. Zero noticeable lag, slowdown, or performance hit.
For most of the time I?ve been testing, I?ve been running 10 to 12 apps at a time ? with most of the above apps in the mix, plus a couple of games (Paper Toss and Scramble 2), the Kindle app, RSS Player, BuddyFeed, and Safari with 4 pages open. And I still saw no slowness or lag, though at the 12 apps mark I did get a few crashes from the Scramble app. The rest of the apps have just kept sailing along ? and are still doing so as I write."
http://justanotheriphoneblog.com/wor...jailbreak-only
More FUD. When Apple enables 3rd party multitasking on the iPad it'll work just fine and while it probably will have 1GB RAM even 512MB looks fine given how snappy it currently is and how well the 256MB 3GS does.
Jeez, why do you KEEP claiming that the iPad won't be able to do what the 3GS already can? And THEN claiming that your doubts aren't FUD?
Don't be so hard on yourself your opinion may be lame but you can still have one.
It is readily accepted that since you were/are in the playground, when you resort to 'I know you are but what am I?' the argument is lost.
Better luck next time. ;-)
I'm using the single core Cortex A8 as the worst case scenario for the iPad, not the best case.
I'm using the 1.6GHz Atom as the worst case for the HP. It may be a dual core Atom. It could be a ULV Core-series chip but it's unlikely due to price.
That's not a citation. That's bogus math intended to spread FUD.
It's from the Brushes user manual.
See the link? I'm asking for a source that is not you. Answer: You don't have a citation because you simply made up the 420x280 number.
Ah, so you value the opinions of internet strangers over your own logic. That link you pointed to is wrong
http://graphicssoft.about.com/od/iph.../gr/layers.htm
"Layers allows you to work with a rectangular canvas of 320x480 pixels, or a square canvas of 512x512 pixels, and up to five layers."
Maybe you should send the developers a link from Google about clipping as they clearly haven't heard about it.
Introducing an artificial offset would be idiotic given that the pen does not obscure the screen any more than a normal pen does to paper. Which you would know, if say, you have used one.
It does due to the glass layer but it only requires a small offset. We're talking about finger use on the iPad and an offset being preferred. But by all means don't take my word for it. Here's a post from a Brushes user in the last link I posted:
"Thanks everybody! and yes strictly done with Brushes, no post work on any other soft. Done with the POGO stylus and a lot of 800% zooms to compensate for the lack of offset on the brush
Given that HP has not released specs and no one has said it has a HDD and given that it intends to be a thin (sorta) tablet why wouldn't it have a SSD? Do you have a source that says it has a HDD?
It doesn't matter if it's SSD or HDD, SSD isn't the same as the mobile Flash memory in the iPad. Plus it has to be one or the other to support a desktop OS. It will likely be 1.8" storage.
That statement has been shown to be wrong again and again, so why keep repeating it?
Mac Cube
iPod*
iPod socks
iPod Hi-Fi
AppleTV
*When iPod was introduced in 2001, it was Mac-only. At the time, there were probably less than 20m Mac users (they'd sold 13.8m Macs over the previous four years). During the 3 quarters that the iPod was Mac-only, Apple sold 236000 units. Some fan base that was.
I'm proud to have bought a first generation 5GB iPod, knowing exactly what it was (by far the smallest HD-based MP3 player available at the time) and what it could do (hold 100 of my favorite CD's, immediately improving the quality of my life). I am surprised to hear that there were so few of us who knew its true potential.
I'm buying the first generation iPad, knowing exactly what it is. A big iPod Touch, which is EXACTLY what I want.
It is readily accepted that since you were/are in the playground, when you resort to 'I know you are but what am I?' the argument is lost.
Better luck next time. ;-)
Thats the main issue with Apple fanboys like you they look at everything as an arguement if you don't agree with them. We don't argue we simple debate. Remember you cast the first stone I was simply showing how stupid you looked doing so.
I'm proud to have bought a first generation 5GB iPod, knowing exactly what it was (by far the smallest HD-based MP3 player available at the time) and what it could do (hold 500 of my favorite CD's, immediately improving the quality of my life). I am surprised to hear that there were so few of us who knew its true potential.
I'm buying the first generation iPad, knowing exactly what it is. A big iPod Touch, which is EXACTLY what I want.
Exactly. Why wouldn't people want it. The only thing wrong with the current iPod touch is that its too damn small...problem solved.
Thats the main issue with Apple fanboys like you they look at everything as an arguement if you don't agree with them. We don't argue we simple debate. Remember you cast the first stone I was simply showing how stupid you looked doing so.
If you resort to name calling... Apple Fanboys... and consider that that's "all" people are around here, then WHY are YOU here?
To pick fights? Make inane comments? Sling insults? Support the indefensible?
I simply fail to understand why you would hang around here and make over 1200 comments since 2006 if you (seemingly) loathe Apple, the Mac and Mac users?
I suggest that the problem clearly does not lie with the posters here or the Macintosh or Mac OS X or the iPad, iPhone, the iPod touch or even Satan's spawn, Steve Jobs.
I'm using the 1.6GHz Atom as the worst case for the HP. It may be a dual core Atom. It could be a ULV Core-series chip but it's unlikely due to price.
There's no reason to assume the worst for the slate. It has to run win7, go ahead and assume the best case. it doesn't matter that much given that iOS is far more efficient than win7 because it is designed for a mobile environment. Windows Phone 7 is a far better contender for the slate than the desktop win7 but then you lose the primary advantage of being on the Atom...Windows app.
That's not a bad trade given that many Windows apps will perform poorly anyway without a keyboard and mouse.
It's from the Brushes user manual.
That would have been easier than the bogus math. I looked briefly can you tell me where in the manual?
Ah, so you value the opinions of internet strangers over your own logic.
No, I value the statements of others over YOUR logic.
That link you pointed to is wrong
1024x768 canvas = 786432 bytes x 2 (for 16 bits) = ~1.6MB x 5 layers = ~8MB.
Canvas size is not really THAT a huge memory user. Photoshop uses a lot of memory for what it does and it can handle 30K x 30K imagery...which would be about 900M.
http://graphicssoft.about.com/od/iph.../gr/layers.htm
"Layers allows you to work with a rectangular canvas of 320x480 pixels, or a square canvas of 512x512 pixels, and up to five layers."
Maybe you should send the developers a link from Google about clipping as they clearly haven't heard about it.
That's Layers and I don't recall if it is vector or raster. 512x512 = 262144 or 256KB.
Perhaps you can explain how different a drawing canvas is in comparison to a map canvas? And yet, somehow, I'm able to pan and zoom across a huge canvas in my GPS apps. Gee, is it because they only load the image areas they need?
And yes, I've written a simple drawing app to draw overlays on a map canvas and stored as vectors (strokes). The memory use for the drawing itself is driven by the points stored and the line data.
A line 10 pixels long takes the same space as a line 10000 pixels long.
It does due to the glass layer but it only requires a small offset.
The glass offset is an artifact, not a feature.
We're talking about finger use on the iPad and an offset being preferred. But by all means don't take my word for it. Here's a post from a Brushes user in the last link I posted:
"Thanks everybody! and yes strictly done with Brushes, no post work on any other soft. Done with the POGO stylus and a lot of 800% zooms to compensate for the lack of offset on the brush
A POGO stylus is rather thick. Brushes was designed for a finger and there is no offset. The point is that YOU states that an offset was DESIRED even for things like the Cintiq. It is not.
The desire for a stylus is for finer detail work as you can do with a pen on paper vs say...a finger or brush. Having a pen about the same thickness of a finger doesn't help that much with that so zoom is desired. The offset isn't DESIRED as much as a work around when you do not have the same fine control of a fine tip. You can't SEE the fine line being drawn if the stylus is as thick as an unsharpened pencil. With a sharpened pencil (or stylus) then you do not need or want an offset from the drawing tip to the paper.
As it applies to the slate vs ipad, if the HP slate doesn't have a digitizer then it won't be any better than the iPad for artists desiring to draw fine lines directly.
It doesn't matter if it's SSD or HDD, SSD isn't the same as the mobile Flash memory in the iPad. Plus it has to be one or the other to support a desktop OS. It will likely be 1.8" storage.
I showed this to be false to Mel a long long time ago by showing the exact same flash chips from images of the iPod Nano and the Samsung SSD they were selling. Same part numbers on the flash modules can be seen in both.
SOME SSD are different (SLC) but they tend to be much more expensive than their mass market MLC counterparts. For example the Intel X-25Ms are MLC.
The odds that the HP Slate will be using SLC SSDs is very remote.
That would have been easier than the bogus math. I looked briefly can you tell me where in the manual?
The 'bogus' math came from the manual. They have a screenshot at 600%, count the pixel blocks and scale it up to get the native canvas resolution. Zoom in on your iPhone or iPod and count the blocks if you prefer.
1024x768 canvas = 786432 bytes x 2 (for 16 bits) = ~1.6MB x 5 layers = ~8MB.
Canvas size is not really THAT a huge memory user.
I know, it's down to how the program stores information. 1024 x 768 x 32 bits per pixel = 3MB per image. If it stores say 10 levels of undo and the undo steps require a bitmap stored per level then it's 30MB. Stroke path recording is different but memory usage depends on the number of strokes and vertices per stroke.
If they add effects like full layer blur and blending modes, the memory usage goes up, same with transforms. You can't really re-rasterize hundreds of strokes every time you move or zoom on such a slow device.
That's Layers and I don't recall if it is vector or raster.
They're both vector and the statements from the source you value over my explanation said you could have canvases several thousand pixels wide in both Layers and Brushes and was wrong. You just need to open the app to see this.
Perhaps you can explain how different a drawing canvas is in comparison to a map canvas?
An exported image can be rasterized at a higher resolution if you store stroke paths. A drawing canvas is limited to the device resources and limits the drawing precision. The hi-res exported canvas in Brushes is being rasterized on a desktop/laptop.
And yet, somehow, I'm able to pan and zoom across a huge canvas in my GPS apps. Gee, is it because they only load the image areas they need?
Yeah but you can't change the images. I'm aware of the fact that you only need to load screen contents in some scenarios and it keeps memory usage low but if it was the case in image editing apps, Photoshop or Illustrator if you want a vector example would only ever use about 100MB of RAM. They don't.
The real issue I have is nothing to do with Brushes though, it's why have Apple not bothered to release the RAM spec? The thread is about preorder numbers. What if Apple turn round and say the iPad has 256MB RAM at launch? RAM is very important and while the demos shown were fluid, all demos are. The Brushes guy showed a single image, one layer, two brush strokes.
I think people should have a right to know what they are paying for.
A line 10 pixels long takes the same space as a line 10000 pixels long.
A straight line.
The glass offset is an artifact, not a feature.
Brush offset is the feature to compensate for the glass offset.
A POGO stylus is rather thick. Brushes was designed for a finger and there is no offset.
The brushes user who made the detailed artwork had to use a POGO because there was no offset on the brush.
The point is that YOU states that an offset was DESIRED even for things like the Cintiq. It is not.
It is when there's a glass offset. In general it's not desired at all - ideal is the sharpened pencil to paper you mentioned but you don't get that digitally yet.
The odds that the HP Slate will be using SLC SSDs is very remote.
It's not really and it doesn't matter if it's SLC or MLC, they still have wear-leveling and about 5-10x faster transfer rates than mobile device storage. And HDD takes away any issues about Flash wear.
The 'bogus' math came from the manual. They have a screenshot at 600%, count the pixel blocks and scale it up to get the native canvas resolution. Zoom in on your iPhone or iPod and count the blocks if you prefer.
That isn't a definitive statement so you're still guessing.
I know, it's down to how the program stores information. 1024 x 768 x 32 bits per pixel = 3MB per image. If it stores say 10 levels of undo and the undo steps require a bitmap stored per level then it's 30MB. Stroke path recording is different but memory usage depends on the number of strokes and vertices per stroke.
Except it doesn't store a longword per pixel and it doesn't store a complete image per undo because that would be stupid for a vector based drawing program.
If they add effects like full layer blur and blending modes, the memory usage goes up, same with transforms. You can't really re-rasterize hundreds of strokes every time you move or zoom on such a slow device.
And you know this how? More FUD that the iPod Touch/iPhone is too "slow" to do X. Especially given that we KNOW you can rasterize hundreds of strokes per refresh...unless you believe that no app currently draws hundreds of polylines or 3D shapes.
You DO realize there IS a GPU on the iPhone right?
They're both vector and the statements from the source you value over my explanation said you could have canvases several thousand pixels wide in both Layers and Brushes and was wrong. You just need to open the app to see this.
It seems no less than 320x480 from the reviews. It exports 2K images. I'm not going to spend $5 just to see. In any case the burden of proof is on you given you're using this in some bogus method to FUD that the iPad will have too little RAM to be for artists.
Yeah but you can't change the images. I'm aware of the fact that you only need to load screen contents in some scenarios and it keeps memory usage low but if it was the case in image editing apps, Photoshop or Illustrator if you want a vector example would only ever use about 100MB of RAM. They don't.
Photoshop and Illustrator are large because of all the capabilities they have, not just the canvas size. As shown the canvas memory footprint is all THAT big a contributor.
You CAN tile any image and clip to limit the CPU and memory footprint. Changing the image means re-rasterizing the affected tiles for the new stroke. I do this for redrawing individual map tiles to render large numbers of polygons (user drawn overlays) rather than rendering each polygon in 3D space and drape it on the map as a layer.
Yeah and verily even on old PIII machines with Intel integrated GPUs because some of our users still have these.
The real issue I have is nothing to do with Brushes though, it's why have Apple not bothered to release the RAM spec?
Because Apple is a secretive company?
The thread is about preorder numbers.
This part of the thread is about you spreading FUD that the iPad won't be a good tool for artists.
What if Apple turn round and say the iPad has 256MB RAM at launch?
Then it is 256MB. THEN you have something to rant about that isn't FUD.
RAM is very important and while the demos shown were fluid, all demos are. The Brushes guy showed a single image, one layer, two brush strokes.
And all those folks that got to play with the iPad and were impressed by the speed are all idiots and fooled by smoke and mirrors.
Specs are nice but usable power is more important.
I think people should have a right to know what they are paying for.
i think people should know what is a fact and what is FUD spread by someone that doesn't like the product.
A straight line.
ANY line. If it has the same number of vertices whether straight or not it will have the same memory footprint REGARDLESS of segment length.
Brush offset is the feature to compensate for the glass offset.
No, you calibrate in order to minimize the offset cause by the glass. The applications assume you're drawing on the pixel the digitizer says you're on.
The brushes user who made the detailed artwork had to use a POGO because there was no offset on the brush.
Citation. Folks that use POGO want the fine dexterity that a stylus offers over a finger because more folks are used to writing/drawing with one. Given that there is no offset THERE IS LITTLE DIFFERENCE between a POGO and a finger in terms of obscuring fine detail work. So your assertion makes no sense.
It is when there's a glass offset. In general it's not desired at all - ideal is the sharpened pencil to paper you mentioned but you don't get that digitally yet.
The glass offset is small. YOU think it's large because in the video you can't actually see the white tip. In most cases there is no visible offset. Only toward extreme angles is it visible.
Nice backtracking. Now, in general it's not desired at all...
and it doesn't matter if it's SLC or MLC,
Except that SLC lasts 5 times as long as MLC so this is a false statement. Plus SLC is faster. MLC cheaper.
they still have wear-leveling
Wear leveling is pretty much implemented for all flash. Yes, even for the ones in a lowly iPod. Some implementations are better than others.
And HDD takes away any issues about Flash wear.
And is slower.
That isn't a definitive statement so you're still guessing.
I'm not going to spend $5 just to see.
You're the one guessing. I actually have the program.
It seems no less than 320x480 from the reviews.
But is it anywhere near several thousand pixels? No, because that was FUD to make the iPad look like it can do the same as a laptop.
You CAN tile any image and clip to limit the CPU and memory footprint. Changing the image means re-rasterizing the affected tiles for the new stroke. I do this for redrawing individual map tiles to render large numbers of polygons (user drawn overlays) rather than rendering each polygon in 3D space and drape it on the map as a layer.
So why not make an iPhone drawing app? If the other apps are limited to small canvases and you can make almost infinite ones, you'd make a lot of money. If your tile size is iPhone resolution, you'd be able to make an app with 20-30 layers and infinite drawing space. Add some filters and you'll easily outsell Brushes.
In fact, make one for the desktop too. Take on Photoshop and let digital texture artists paint gigapixel textures while using only the current tile amount in RAM.
Because Apple is a secretive company?
So secretive they let us know the dimensions, clock speed, storage amount, ports, accessories, aesthetics and even let people get hands-on demos? Yeah, they better keep the RAM under wraps.
This part of the thread is about you spreading FUD that the iPad won't be a good tool for artists.
It won't be a great tool as it has no pressure sensitivity. I'm pointing out that a small RAM amount has very real limitations as it does in any computer and it's more important when you start dealing with multi-tasking and more fully fledged apps on a larger screen.
The glass offset is small. YOU think it's large because in the video you can't actually see the white tip.
I didn't say it was large, the Cintiq at my work has a small offset but without it the pen obscures the brush tip. A POGO and finger both obscure the point much worse, so an offset would be preferred. Why would you prefer no offset when your finger is in the way?
You're the one guessing. I actually have the program.
Then why didn't you know how big you can export images? Or how big the canvas size was without guessing?
But is it anywhere near several thousand pixels? No, because that was FUD to make the iPad look like it can do the same as a laptop.
It's what was posted in a review. In any case, the bottom line is it tells you ZERO about the iPad memory size. The iPad isn't the same as a laptop but is still very capable. Probably as capable or more than your vaunted HP Slate in real world use.
So why not make an iPhone drawing app? If the other apps are limited to small canvases and you can make almost infinite ones, you'd make a lot of money. If your tile size is iPhone resolution, you'd be able to make an app with 20-30 layers and infinite drawing space. Add some filters and you'll easily outsell Brushes.
First, I don't know ObjC all that well yet and second, good apps are all in the details. Especially ones for Apple users. I simply don't have the time to make an app as polished as Brushes appears to be.
So secretive they let us know the dimensions, clock speed, storage amount, ports, accessories, aesthetics and even let people get hands-on demos? Yeah, they better keep the RAM under wraps.
So tell me more about the A4. Is it a cortex A8 or a A9? How many cores? Oh wait...
It won't be a great tool as it has no pressure sensitivity.
And the HP Slate is unlikely to have a digitizer either.
I'm pointing out that a small RAM amount has very real limitations as it does in any computer and it's more important when you start dealing with multi-tasking and more fully fledged apps on a larger screen.
And less because it's running on a mobile OS vs Win7.
I didn't say it was large, the Cintiq at my work has a small offset but without it the pen obscures the brush tip. A POGO and finger both obscure the point much worse, so an offset would be preferred. Why would you prefer no offset when your finger is in the way?
If an offset was really desired by Brushes users it's easy to program in. Do you really think he can't do that?
If your Cintiq has a small offset you should recalibrate it. The cursor/crosshair center should be exactly where the pen tip is. Also given that you can hover with the stylus you can always see where the brush is before you put the pen down without obscuring the image below.
Then why didn't you know how big you can export images?
I don't have wifi at home so I never used the feature.
Or how big the canvas size was without guessing?
It doesn't tell you when you make a new canvas but you can see the blocks when you zoom in. It's easier to count on a screenshot though. I knew it was small but never bothered to count before you asked.
In any case, the bottom line is it tells you ZERO about the iPad memory size.
Obviously if there are limitations then it's because the developer has worked to the device constraints to ensure the program doesn't run out of memory and then fails to open the image up again. Like if you upload a 3k image to a shared server and you only get a fixed RAM allocation of 64MB per process, it can't even open the image.
The iPad isn't the same as a laptop but is still very capable. Probably as capable or more than your vaunted HP Slate in real world use.
HP Slate will open at least a 5k canvas with at least 40 layers and be usable so no. It also has USB, a built-in camera, lots of storage...
First, I don't know ObjC all that well yet and second, good apps are all in the details. Especially ones for Apple users. I simply don't have the time to make an app as polished as Brushes appears to be.
Brushes doesn't have that many features. It doesn't even have any transform or cropping options.
You have 4 layers switched with a button, you have a brushes box with a 11 brushes and you can choose segment spacing, stroke width and opacity, an undo/redo with 10 steps, a dropper and a color picker. Then just a gallery of images that looks like the photo app. The brushes are just images repeated along the stroke path.
So tell me more about the A4. Is it a cortex A8 or a A9? How many cores? Oh wait...
Single core 1GHz Cortex A8 is the best rumor so far.
Does everyone know fully what they're even buying?
Yup, an iPod touch big enough to read books on comfortably.
The iPad has so many awesome things going for it, if Apple can pull off moderately priced TV, that will just be another huge feature to add to the list.
One quote in here is a little unnerving though. "nailing down the content has proven difficult as some potential collaborators weigh the advantages of working with Apple against the potential threats to their current sources of revenue."
That pretty much sums up what has kept the Apple TV from greatness. Hopefully Apple can strike a deal with content providers. Once it's on the iPad, then it's just a matter of time until they sign deals for Apple TV content. This will be huge.
Hopefully sooner than later.
Right on! Visual media for iPad and same media for AppleTV.
HP introduced their Slate before Apple. Which is far more powerful then the iPad.
How many have they sold?