"Haifa is one of the few places in Israel where Arabs and Jews live in
the same neighborhoods, and the city has prided itself in its atmosphere
of coexistence. The Matza restaurant is Arab-owned, and several Arabs
were apparently among the victims. It marked the second time in recent
weeks that a suicide bomber did not hesitate to blow himself up in an
area where Arabs were also present."
Well, that's just great. They blow up their own "oppressed" people in the process. Fantastic. Stroke of genius. Total, blind, religious fanaticism at it's worst. They will probably destroy themselves in the final process...fine...I won't expound my thoughts about all this stupidity...it is all about the 'ol time religions...and most people here know my stance on that.
Politically though, removing Afafat-ass is the first step towards a new turn on things. He's been like that "Crazy Uncle" nobody talks to at family dinners, but put up with anyway with his idiotic rantings at the table...
[quote]The world must understand that the Palestinians have not chosen suicide bombing out of "desperation" stemming from the Israeli occupation. That is a huge lie. Why? To begin with, a lot of other people in the world are desperate, yet they have not gone around strapping dynamite to themselves. More important, President Clinton offered the Palestinians a peace plan that could have ended their "desperate" occupation, and Yasir Arafat walked away. Still more important, the Palestinians have long had a tactical alternative to suicide: nonviolent resistance, Ã* la Gandhi. A nonviolent Palestinian movement appealing to the conscience of the Israeli silent majority would have delivered a Palestinian state 30 years ago, but they have rejected that strategy, too.<hr></blockquote>
[quote]The entire Arab world is funding Arafat the terrorist so he can kill jews.<hr></blockquote>
I think you'd see much worse with meaningful funding.
[quote]What's Israel to do. Die?<hr></blockquote>
I'm beginning to think that the alternatives aren't so great either. Removing Arafat could mean a full scale war against the Arab world and all the fanatics therein. Israel is not in a good position there.
Arafat is probably too difficult to negotiate with, and Sharon probably wouldn't want to negotiate with him anyway. Keeping Arafat around and making half-hearted attempts at peace that stall upon terrorist attacks will encourage terrorism as it's been happening lately, since the point - besides killing a few Jews - is to stall peace talks. It works.
[quote]Politically though, removing Afafat-ass is the first step towards a new turn on things.<hr></blockquote>
From what I have heard, the younger generation may be much worse. They have been steeped in fanaticism since day one. I'm starting to think that if Arafat can't be bargained with, simply getting rid of him will bring worse things. An all out war on what's left of Palestine would be hell for Israel too. Hell for both sides, really.
[ 03-31-2002: Message edited by: Mac The Fork ]</p>
[quote] nonviolent resistance, Ã* la Gandhi.<hr></blockquote>
Nonviolent resistance worked so well in India because is was after WWII (England was not about to fight another war) and India had the leverage of a massive working class and raw materials to work with. Same in South Africa where a boycott was worth something. I still think it has value however in Palestine and is under used.
Also, the settlers of Israel are also taught from birth to be fanatics and hate all Palestinians too, this is not a one sided thing by any means no matter how the conservitives want to spin it.
<strong>The problem is the Arab world cannot stand the jews and wants them dead. This latest violence seems to be coming with strong backing of Iran. The entire Arab world is funding Arafat the terrorist so he can kill jews.
What's Israel to do. Die?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think the problem is that extremists like yourself do not want to believe that most Arabs want peace. You enjoy thinking that all Arabs hate America and Jews. Why do we let a few asses who decide to blow up innocent Isrealis destroy the peace process? Is it because people like you would rather have Arab terrorists to kill than Arab allies?
Yes, he is, (or at least his language is extreem...)
There is one thing you have to understand about Arafat. He has not risen to become leader of the PLO with sweettalk. He is a hard, determind man, who has forced the many fractions of the PLO into the fold.
These fractions are not under his control, but they still regard him as the palestinian leader because he has not made deals that they cannot accept.
His mandate from the PLO members (and the palestinian people), is not to make concessions to Isreal. He will not give up on the refugees, Jerusalem or the settlements. We might not agree, but thats how it is... Sharon is in many ways the same. His government relies on parties on the extreeem right. They are firmly against any idea of removing the settlements, and any palestinian state. Sharon has for many years been the foremost speaker and protector of the Settlers... When Arafat walked away from the peace at Camp David it was because he knew he couldn't sell this peace to his people, especially the hardliners.
Gandhi wouldn't have lasted 5 minuttes with his message in this climate. There are several israeli non-violence activist currently beeing detaind by the IDF for trynig to enter Arafats compund...
(a funny sidenote: Look what happend to Jesus, he had a pretty simmilar message. The political climate was much the same... There was an occupation going on back then as well. These are people who are brought up on "an eye for an eye" and not "turn the other cheek"...)
I think the problem is that extremists like yourself do not want to believe that most Arabs want peace. You enjoy thinking that all Arabs hate America and Jews. Why do we let a few asses who decide to blow up innocent Isrealis destroy the peace process? Is it because people like you would rather have Arab terrorists to kill than Arab allies?</strong><hr></blockquote>
You are amazingly naive. Its not a few people blowing themselves up. The Palestinians rally in the streets everytime they do it. Its supported publicly by almost every palestinian. Its hard to talk peace with lunatics................................
<strong>When Arafat walked away from the peace at Camp David it was because he knew he couldn't sell this peace to his people, especially the hardliners.
Gandhi wouldn't have lasted 5 minuttes with his message in this climate.</strong><hr></blockquote>So the question is, why can't he sell peace to his people, and why wouldn't Gandhi last in this climate?
Maybe it's because their leaders aren't leading them in that direction?
Arafat gives Arabic language speeches about how the suicide bombers are great martyrs, the Arab League invites Hamas.
One thing Gandhi understood is that there can not be peace without dignity and self-respect.
The peace will have to be so good, that there would be no use for continued fighting. As it is right now the people who want to remove the settlements and the checkpoints are fighting side by side with the people who want to destroy Israel. What I would like to see is the extremist on both sides isolated from the more moderat (and far larger) forces.
Right now they are beeing driven together.
Gandhi wouldn't last because his methods apealed to the morality of the parties and the world opinion.
I don't feel there is much morality left, and the world opinion has been disregarded for decades...
Unlike in Tianimin Square, these tanks don't stop. Gandhi would probably have been run over...
First, some morality has to be brought back. The move is all Sharons. He has the power to break of the from the path of violence. The palestinians are in a tight corner, they will only turn more extreem if pressed further. Moderat voices have no meaning when the water and power has been cut, and the sodiers are walking door to door...
Why isn't this obvious? There will be more suicide bombings... every day... Its the only option left that has effect...
Here are some more names on Islam and nonviolence, just to show that this is actually not a non-existing field: (I copied the text, and edited a bit):
There exists a world wide network of leading Muslim intellectuals and a very substantial body of literature on Islamic nonviolence and peacemaking practices. Some of the best teachers, scholars, and trainers who have developed curricula in this area are the following:
Dr. Karim Crow, Professor, Islamic Philosophy, ISTAC, Malaysia. He is the Director of the Islam and Peace program for Nonviolence International. He conducts seminars in Arabic on peaceful Islamic action. He founded the Islamic Peace Forum.
Nagasura T. Madale, The leading Muslim practitioner of nonviolence in Mindanao, The Philippines, where there has been a great deal of fighting since the 1970s. He started many Muslim-Christian dialogues and peace schools, a resource center and a consortium of NGOs and universities for peace. The most famous scholar on nonviolence and Islam in the world.
Dr. Mubarak Awad, founder of Nonviolence International. Sometimes called the Palestinian Gandhi. Most famous Palestinian leader of nonviolence. (Mentioned above)
Dr. George Irani, (Lebanese American) Professor of International Studies George Washington College.
Dr. Mohammed Abu Nimer, Professor of Peace and Conflict Studies, The American University, Washington DC
Dr. Amr Abdullah, Professor of Conflict Analysis and Resolution, George Mason University, Fairfax.
Dr. Mary King, a leading participant of the American civil rights movement, specialist on nonviolence during the Palestinian "intifida", Director of the Graduate Program in Peace, Human Rights and Development, University of St. George in Grenada. She is author of Mahatama Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr. The Power of Nonviolent Action (Paris: UNESCO Press).
Finally, the United States Institute of Peace has funded a study on Islam and peace.
NEW, you sound like a 12 year old who can?t admit he?s wrong. Your selective ?morality? is astonishing. But there is no moral equivalency between Israel and the Arabs in this conflict. There never was and never will be. Your attempts to somehow equate the two sides just detract from any argument you try to make. As long as the Arabs hate the Israelis more than they love their children, frankly, they will always be considered as sub par compared the rest of humanity. Sending teen-age girls on a suicide rampages just underscored this point. Israeli mothers just can?t understand how any mother can send her little child into a combat zone. The Arabs like to complain about little kids getting injured by bullets. But what the hell are little children doing in an armed combat situation. They did this in Beirut, they did this in the 80?s, and they?re doing it now.
The Arabs refuse to resettle their population among their vast territory, and finally end this stupidity. But there needs to be a population transfer between Israel and the Arab states. India and Pakistan almost solved their problem this way. And I wouldn?t be surprised if again this solution will be applied in Kashmir to solve the conflict between them. The Europeans did similar things after WWII with the Germans, among others. And you can draw a direct legal parallel between the Germans in the Sudetenland?s, and the Arabs in Judea Samaria and Gaza.
Moreover, there were about a million Israelis (Jews) from Arab countries that were transferred to Israel from various Arab states in the early days of the state. There is no reason why this can?t be applied to the Arabs illegally living in Israel. Israel needs to transfer them back to their own countries.
Also, this is not a religious conflict like some like to point out. Even their Koran speaks of this land belonging to the Jews. They recognize both Moses and Abraham. The Arab dictators have used hate of Israel and the West to deflect from their own incompetence on domestic issues. This might not have been particularly troublesome to the Americans and other powers in the past, but the longer this continues, the more dangerous it is. Biological and chemical weapons are already common in the region. And it?s only a matter of time before Iran and Iraq go nuclear.
Either israel or palestine will cease to exist soon. The question is what world do you want to live in; the one with an Israel state or the one with a palestine state.
A year ago I had a lot of respect for the Islamic world. Today it's non-existant. The ironic thing is that in the last 6 months I've learned alot about the REAL islamic world than I knew in the last 25 years. Lying and back-stabbing is the order of the day there i guess.
<strong>Illegally living in Israel? How so?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I thought I answered that already.... "And you can draw a direct legal parallel between the Germans in the Sudetenland?s, and the Arabs in Judea Samaria and Gaza."
<strong>NEW, you sound like a 12 year old who can?t admit he?s wrong. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I could have said the same thing about you ? you sound like somebody who has been brainwashed by his parents or something, just like your buddy steve666.
[quote]<strong>As long as the Arabs hate the Israelis more than they love their children, frankly, they will always be considered as sub par compared the rest of humanity. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Sub-par? Are you telling me an *ARAB* is ?sub-par? because of their skin color or something? Because that?s what an Arab is, you know ? someone from an area of central Asia with dark skin.
I might respond to that remark with some respect if you were at least talking about Palestinians. At least then you could categorize them in some concrete way, but still, that is an awfully gross generalization.
[quote]<strong>Sending teen-age girls on a suicide rampages just underscored this point. Israeli mothers just can?t understand how any mother can send her little child into a combat zone.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That?s propaganda b.s, dude. Very, very, very few Palestinian mothers likely send their daughters to blow themselves up. In fact, I never saw any report that the recent 18 year-old suicide bomber did anything against her own will. It?s pretty arrogant of you to make such a statement against Palestinian mothers. If anyone is ?forcing? these girls to do this it is the extremist groups ? but no, you must put a wild spin on your argument by accusing mothers of setting there children up with bombs and sending them off to Israel.
[quote]<strong>The Arabs like to complain about little kids getting injured by bullets. But what the hell are little children doing in an armed combat situation.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Because we all know the walk to school involves assult rifle fire...
[quote]<strong>The Europeans did similar things after WWII with the Germans, among others. And you can draw a direct legal parallel between the Germans in the Sudetenland?s, and the Arabs in Judea Samaria and Gaza.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Don?t you just love to compare the Arabs to the Germans of the WWII era... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
[quote]<strong>Biological and chemical weapons are already common in the region. And it?s only a matter of time before Iran and Iraq go nuclear.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Notice: I am 110% opposed to Iraq?s nuclear endeavors.
But... Wasn?t ISRAEL the country developing biological weapons that would kill Arabs but not Jews? LOL! How idiotic.
<strong>That doesn't answer my question. I'd like to see how you draw the parallel.</strong><hr></blockquote>
On 29th September, 1938, Adolf Hitler, Neville Chamberlain, Edouard Daladier and Benito Mussolini sign the Munich Agreement which transfers the Sudetenland to Germany. Hitler marches into the Sudetenland on 1st October, 1938 - under the pretext of liberating the ethnic Germans there. As this area contained nearly all Czechoslovakia's mountain fortifications, Czechoslovakia is no longer able to defend herself against Hitler. And a little later, in March 1939, the whole of Czechoslovakia comes under the control of the Nazis.
On the 29th November, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly pass a resolution to transfer historic Jewish lands in the then British Mandate to Arab control. The area transferred is again a mountainous area, leaving the Jewish population extremely vulnerable to attack(s). Jews are allocated just a fraction of their historic lands. With the British set to leave their Mandate on the 15th May, 1948, the armies of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, and Egypt, with the help of local Arabs in Judea Samaria, that same day invade the remaining Jewish portion (then called Israel) - under the pretext of liberating it from the Jews. The invasion, heralded by an Egyptian air attack on Tel Aviv, is vigorously resisted by Israel, using arms purchased in Czechoslovakia among other places.
As we all well know, the Nazis were finally defeated in 1945. The Czechs regarded the Sudeten Germans as a fifth column who greeted Hitler with open arms when he seized the Sudetenland after the Munich Agreement of 1938. By 1945, there was an overwhelming urge for retribution for German aggression and atrocities. Czechoslovakia decided to forever rid of its ethnic German population. Three million Sudeten Germans were transferred to Bavaria and other German states at the end of that war.
In June, 1967, the armies of Jordan, Syria, and Egypt in Judea Samaria and Gaza, were finally defeated. Many Israelis such as myself, regard the Arabs in Judea Samaria and Gaza as a fifth column, who like the Germans that greeted Hitler with open arms when he seized the Sudete, greeted the invading armies of the Arabs in 1947 with open arms.
Therefore I would like them removed. For obvious reasons (OIL), I understand the need to be a bit more patient. So the transfer of the Arabs out of Judea Samaria and Gaza, is yet to be written in the history books.
Sub-par? Are you telling me an *ARAB* is ?sub-par? because of their skin color or something? Because that?s what an Arab is, you know ? someone from an area of central Asia with dark skin.
If that?s what in your eyes constitutes an Arab, then you are truly ignorant. No one here is talking about race or skin color. To be an Arab, has everything to do with culture, religion, and ethnicity. But maybe you?re more ignorant then I gave you credit for.
Quote:
That?s propaganda b.s, dude ?
Really?! Why don?t you check back on the news reels and see who exactly was confronting the IDF in the 70?s, 80?s, and 90?s. I'd say about 50% were children. But I guess you haven?t been watching the news for the last 20 years.
Quote:
Don?t you just love to compare the Arabs to the Germans of the WWII
Read their papers. (Maybe Scott can refresh your memory ). Watch their news. Heck, borrow their schoolbooks - paid for by our European friends here. Although my original comparison was wholly different, both comparisons with the Nazis are quite legitimate.
From 1947 to 1967 the lands of Judea Samaria and Gaza were under total Arab control. Why wasn?t a ?Palestianian? state created then? Think about that.
You were upset Nick, that I didn?t refer to the Arabs in these areas as Palestinians. This is because there is no such thing as a Palestinian. There never was. You can go back thousands of years. You'll never find it. This is modern invention by Arab propagandists. I read the history books Nick. I know what I?m talking about.
Comments
<a href="http://apnews.excite.com/article/20020331/D7IJHEJ01.html"; target="_blank">Suicide Blast in Israel Kills 12</a>
"Haifa is one of the few places in Israel where Arabs and Jews live in
the same neighborhoods, and the city has prided itself in its atmosphere
of coexistence. The Matza restaurant is Arab-owned, and several Arabs
were apparently among the victims. It marked the second time in recent
weeks that a suicide bomber did not hesitate to blow himself up in an
area where Arabs were also present."
Well, that's just great. They blow up their own "oppressed" people in the process. Fantastic. Stroke of genius. Total, blind, religious fanaticism at it's worst. They will probably destroy themselves in the final process...fine...I won't expound my thoughts about all this stupidity...it is all about the 'ol time religions...and most people here know my stance on that.
Politically though, removing Afafat-ass is the first step towards a new turn on things. He's been like that "Crazy Uncle" nobody talks to at family dinners, but put up with anyway with his idiotic rantings at the table...
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/31/opinion/31FRIE.html"; target="_blank">Link here.</a>
[quote]The world must understand that the Palestinians have not chosen suicide bombing out of "desperation" stemming from the Israeli occupation. That is a huge lie. Why? To begin with, a lot of other people in the world are desperate, yet they have not gone around strapping dynamite to themselves. More important, President Clinton offered the Palestinians a peace plan that could have ended their "desperate" occupation, and Yasir Arafat walked away. Still more important, the Palestinians have long had a tactical alternative to suicide: nonviolent resistance, Ã* la Gandhi. A nonviolent Palestinian movement appealing to the conscience of the Israeli silent majority would have delivered a Palestinian state 30 years ago, but they have rejected that strategy, too.<hr></blockquote>
I think you'd see much worse with meaningful funding.
[quote]What's Israel to do. Die?<hr></blockquote>
I'm beginning to think that the alternatives aren't so great either. Removing Arafat could mean a full scale war against the Arab world and all the fanatics therein. Israel is not in a good position there.
Arafat is probably too difficult to negotiate with, and Sharon probably wouldn't want to negotiate with him anyway. Keeping Arafat around and making half-hearted attempts at peace that stall upon terrorist attacks will encourage terrorism as it's been happening lately, since the point - besides killing a few Jews - is to stall peace talks. It works.
[quote]Politically though, removing Afafat-ass is the first step towards a new turn on things.<hr></blockquote>
From what I have heard, the younger generation may be much worse. They have been steeped in fanaticism since day one. I'm starting to think that if Arafat can't be bargained with, simply getting rid of him will bring worse things. An all out war on what's left of Palestine would be hell for Israel too. Hell for both sides, really.
[ 03-31-2002: Message edited by: Mac The Fork ]</p>
Nonviolent resistance worked so well in India because is was after WWII (England was not about to fight another war) and India had the leverage of a massive working class and raw materials to work with. Same in South Africa where a boycott was worth something. I still think it has value however in Palestine and is under used.
Also, the settlers of Israel are also taught from birth to be fanatics and hate all Palestinians too, this is not a one sided thing by any means no matter how the conservitives want to spin it.
<strong>The problem is the Arab world cannot stand the jews and wants them dead. This latest violence seems to be coming with strong backing of Iran. The entire Arab world is funding Arafat the terrorist so he can kill jews.
What's Israel to do. Die?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think the problem is that extremists like yourself do not want to believe that most Arabs want peace. You enjoy thinking that all Arabs hate America and Jews. Why do we let a few asses who decide to blow up innocent Isrealis destroy the peace process? Is it because people like you would rather have Arab terrorists to kill than Arab allies?
He's not and extremist
There is one thing you have to understand about Arafat. He has not risen to become leader of the PLO with sweettalk. He is a hard, determind man, who has forced the many fractions of the PLO into the fold.
These fractions are not under his control, but they still regard him as the palestinian leader because he has not made deals that they cannot accept.
His mandate from the PLO members (and the palestinian people), is not to make concessions to Isreal. He will not give up on the refugees, Jerusalem or the settlements. We might not agree, but thats how it is... Sharon is in many ways the same. His government relies on parties on the extreeem right. They are firmly against any idea of removing the settlements, and any palestinian state. Sharon has for many years been the foremost speaker and protector of the Settlers... When Arafat walked away from the peace at Camp David it was because he knew he couldn't sell this peace to his people, especially the hardliners.
Gandhi wouldn't have lasted 5 minuttes with his message in this climate. There are several israeli non-violence activist currently beeing detaind by the IDF for trynig to enter Arafats compund...
(a funny sidenote: Look what happend to Jesus, he had a pretty simmilar message. The political climate was much the same... There was an occupation going on back then as well. These are people who are brought up on "an eye for an eye" and not "turn the other cheek"...)
<strong>
I think the problem is that extremists like yourself do not want to believe that most Arabs want peace. You enjoy thinking that all Arabs hate America and Jews. Why do we let a few asses who decide to blow up innocent Isrealis destroy the peace process? Is it because people like you would rather have Arab terrorists to kill than Arab allies?</strong><hr></blockquote>
You are amazingly naive. Its not a few people blowing themselves up. The Palestinians rally in the streets everytime they do it. Its supported publicly by almost every palestinian. Its hard to talk peace with lunatics................................
<strong>When Arafat walked away from the peace at Camp David it was because he knew he couldn't sell this peace to his people, especially the hardliners.
Gandhi wouldn't have lasted 5 minuttes with his message in this climate.</strong><hr></blockquote>So the question is, why can't he sell peace to his people, and why wouldn't Gandhi last in this climate?
Maybe it's because their leaders aren't leading them in that direction?
Arafat gives Arabic language speeches about how the suicide bombers are great martyrs, the Arab League invites Hamas.
Which comes first, the leaders, or the people?
The peace will have to be so good, that there would be no use for continued fighting. As it is right now the people who want to remove the settlements and the checkpoints are fighting side by side with the people who want to destroy Israel. What I would like to see is the extremist on both sides isolated from the more moderat (and far larger) forces.
Right now they are beeing driven together.
Gandhi wouldn't last because his methods apealed to the morality of the parties and the world opinion.
I don't feel there is much morality left, and the world opinion has been disregarded for decades...
Unlike in Tianimin Square, these tanks don't stop. Gandhi would probably have been run over...
First, some morality has to be brought back. The move is all Sharons. He has the power to break of the from the path of violence. The palestinians are in a tight corner, they will only turn more extreem if pressed further. Moderat voices have no meaning when the water and power has been cut, and the sodiers are walking door to door...
Why isn't this obvious? There will be more suicide bombings... every day... Its the only option left that has effect...
BTW, do you have some real Arafat quotes?
Here you go: <a href="http://www.hcef.org/foundation/people/advisory/mawad.html"; target="_blank">Dr. Mubarak Awad</a>, who was expelled from East Jerusalem by Israel, because he advocated a non-violent civil revolt.
Here are some more names on Islam and nonviolence, just to show that this is actually not a non-existing field: (I copied the text, and edited a bit):
There exists a world wide network of leading Muslim intellectuals and a very substantial body of literature on Islamic nonviolence and peacemaking practices. Some of the best teachers, scholars, and trainers who have developed curricula in this area are the following:
Dr. Karim Crow, Professor, Islamic Philosophy, ISTAC, Malaysia. He is the Director of the Islam and Peace program for Nonviolence International. He conducts seminars in Arabic on peaceful Islamic action. He founded the Islamic Peace Forum.
Nagasura T. Madale, The leading Muslim practitioner of nonviolence in Mindanao, The Philippines, where there has been a great deal of fighting since the 1970s. He started many Muslim-Christian dialogues and peace schools, a resource center and a consortium of NGOs and universities for peace. The most famous scholar on nonviolence and Islam in the world.
Dr. Mubarak Awad, founder of Nonviolence International. Sometimes called the Palestinian Gandhi. Most famous Palestinian leader of nonviolence. (Mentioned above)
Dr. George Irani, (Lebanese American) Professor of International Studies George Washington College.
Dr. Mohammed Abu Nimer, Professor of Peace and Conflict Studies, The American University, Washington DC
Dr. Amr Abdullah, Professor of Conflict Analysis and Resolution, George Mason University, Fairfax.
Dr. Mary King, a leading participant of the American civil rights movement, specialist on nonviolence during the Palestinian "intifida", Director of the Graduate Program in Peace, Human Rights and Development, University of St. George in Grenada. She is author of Mahatama Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr. The Power of Nonviolent Action (Paris: UNESCO Press).
Finally, the United States Institute of Peace has funded a study on Islam and peace.
[ 03-31-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
The Arabs refuse to resettle their population among their vast territory, and finally end this stupidity. But there needs to be a population transfer between Israel and the Arab states. India and Pakistan almost solved their problem this way. And I wouldn?t be surprised if again this solution will be applied in Kashmir to solve the conflict between them. The Europeans did similar things after WWII with the Germans, among others. And you can draw a direct legal parallel between the Germans in the Sudetenland?s, and the Arabs in Judea Samaria and Gaza.
Moreover, there were about a million Israelis (Jews) from Arab countries that were transferred to Israel from various Arab states in the early days of the state. There is no reason why this can?t be applied to the Arabs illegally living in Israel. Israel needs to transfer them back to their own countries.
Also, this is not a religious conflict like some like to point out. Even their Koran speaks of this land belonging to the Jews. They recognize both Moses and Abraham. The Arab dictators have used hate of Israel and the West to deflect from their own incompetence on domestic issues. This might not have been particularly troublesome to the Americans and other powers in the past, but the longer this continues, the more dangerous it is. Biological and chemical weapons are already common in the region. And it?s only a matter of time before Iran and Iraq go nuclear.
mika.
A year ago I had a lot of respect for the Islamic world. Today it's non-existant. The ironic thing is that in the last 6 months I've learned alot about the REAL islamic world than I knew in the last 25 years. Lying and back-stabbing is the order of the day there i guess.
<strong>Illegally living in Israel? How so?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I thought I answered that already.... "And you can draw a direct legal parallel between the Germans in the Sudetenland?s, and the Arabs in Judea Samaria and Gaza."
mika.
<strong>NEW, you sound like a 12 year old who can?t admit he?s wrong. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I could have said the same thing about you ? you sound like somebody who has been brainwashed by his parents or something, just like your buddy steve666.
[quote]<strong>As long as the Arabs hate the Israelis more than they love their children, frankly, they will always be considered as sub par compared the rest of humanity. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Sub-par? Are you telling me an *ARAB* is ?sub-par? because of their skin color or something? Because that?s what an Arab is, you know ? someone from an area of central Asia with dark skin.
I might respond to that remark with some respect if you were at least talking about Palestinians. At least then you could categorize them in some concrete way, but still, that is an awfully gross generalization.
[quote]<strong>Sending teen-age girls on a suicide rampages just underscored this point. Israeli mothers just can?t understand how any mother can send her little child into a combat zone.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That?s propaganda b.s, dude. Very, very, very few Palestinian mothers likely send their daughters to blow themselves up. In fact, I never saw any report that the recent 18 year-old suicide bomber did anything against her own will. It?s pretty arrogant of you to make such a statement against Palestinian mothers. If anyone is ?forcing? these girls to do this it is the extremist groups ? but no, you must put a wild spin on your argument by accusing mothers of setting there children up with bombs and sending them off to Israel.
[quote]<strong>The Arabs like to complain about little kids getting injured by bullets. But what the hell are little children doing in an armed combat situation.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Because we all know the walk to school involves assult rifle fire...
[quote]<strong>The Europeans did similar things after WWII with the Germans, among others. And you can draw a direct legal parallel between the Germans in the Sudetenland?s, and the Arabs in Judea Samaria and Gaza.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Don?t you just love to compare the Arabs to the Germans of the WWII era... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
[quote]<strong>Biological and chemical weapons are already common in the region. And it?s only a matter of time before Iran and Iraq go nuclear.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Notice: I am 110% opposed to Iraq?s nuclear endeavors.
But... Wasn?t ISRAEL the country developing biological weapons that would kill Arabs but not Jews? LOL! How idiotic.
<a href="http://www.mideastfacts.com/ethno_bomb.html"; target="_blank">http://www.mideastfacts.com/ethno_bomb.html</a>;
<strong>That doesn't answer my question. I'd like to see how you draw the parallel.</strong><hr></blockquote>
On 29th September, 1938, Adolf Hitler, Neville Chamberlain, Edouard Daladier and Benito Mussolini sign the Munich Agreement which transfers the Sudetenland to Germany. Hitler marches into the Sudetenland on 1st October, 1938 - under the pretext of liberating the ethnic Germans there. As this area contained nearly all Czechoslovakia's mountain fortifications, Czechoslovakia is no longer able to defend herself against Hitler. And a little later, in March 1939, the whole of Czechoslovakia comes under the control of the Nazis.
On the 29th November, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly pass a resolution to transfer historic Jewish lands in the then British Mandate to Arab control. The area transferred is again a mountainous area, leaving the Jewish population extremely vulnerable to attack(s). Jews are allocated just a fraction of their historic lands. With the British set to leave their Mandate on the 15th May, 1948, the armies of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, and Egypt, with the help of local Arabs in Judea Samaria, that same day invade the remaining Jewish portion (then called Israel) - under the pretext of liberating it from the Jews. The invasion, heralded by an Egyptian air attack on Tel Aviv, is vigorously resisted by Israel, using arms purchased in Czechoslovakia among other places.
As we all well know, the Nazis were finally defeated in 1945. The Czechs regarded the Sudeten Germans as a fifth column who greeted Hitler with open arms when he seized the Sudetenland after the Munich Agreement of 1938. By 1945, there was an overwhelming urge for retribution for German aggression and atrocities. Czechoslovakia decided to forever rid of its ethnic German population. Three million Sudeten Germans were transferred to Bavaria and other German states at the end of that war.
In June, 1967, the armies of Jordan, Syria, and Egypt in Judea Samaria and Gaza, were finally defeated. Many Israelis such as myself, regard the Arabs in Judea Samaria and Gaza as a fifth column, who like the Germans that greeted Hitler with open arms when he seized the Sudete, greeted the invading armies of the Arabs in 1947 with open arms.
Therefore I would like them removed. For obvious reasons (OIL), I understand the need to be a bit more patient. So the transfer of the Arabs out of Judea Samaria and Gaza, is yet to be written in the history books.
mika.
[ 04-01-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
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Sub-par? Are you telling me an *ARAB* is ?sub-par? because of their skin color or something? Because that?s what an Arab is, you know ? someone from an area of central Asia with dark skin.
If that?s what in your eyes constitutes an Arab, then you are truly ignorant. No one here is talking about race or skin color. To be an Arab, has everything to do with culture, religion, and ethnicity. But maybe you?re more ignorant then I gave you credit for.
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That?s propaganda b.s, dude ?
Really?! Why don?t you check back on the news reels and see who exactly was confronting the IDF in the 70?s, 80?s, and 90?s. I'd say about 50% were children. But I guess you haven?t been watching the news for the last 20 years.
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Don?t you just love to compare the Arabs to the Germans of the WWII
Read their papers. (Maybe Scott can refresh your memory
mika.
[ 04-01-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
From 1947 to 1967 the lands of Judea Samaria and Gaza were under total Arab control. Why wasn?t a ?Palestianian? state created then? Think about that.
You were upset Nick, that I didn?t refer to the Arabs in these areas as Palestinians. This is because there is no such thing as a Palestinian. There never was. You can go back thousands of years. You'll never find it. This is modern invention by Arab propagandists. I read the history books Nick. I know what I?m talking about.
mika.
[ 04-01-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>