Violence in Israel/Palestine

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  • Reply 141 of 761
    newnew Posts: 3,244member
    [quote]While the Palestinians slaughter Israelis he feels the army should do nothing?<hr></blockquote>



    The death toll is about 1 israeli to 5 palestineans right now... Over 1500 people have been killed in the last 18 months...
  • Reply 142 of 761
    thentrothentro Posts: 231member
    the number is more like 1 for 3.5, not 1 for 5 from sept 2000..(Get you facts right)



    As for 666,

    Has the occupation of Palestine really helped? Today more kids got shot and killed by school and another died from a shot to the head 3 days ago. Does this help? Every day international criticism grows against Israel. Does this help? People are so hopeless as to kill them self in revenge on innocents, for innocents. Does occupation help? Will destroying roads, bombing jails, and shooting at medical crews help?



    Perhaps this man has a point...
  • Reply 143 of 761
    Been spending a lot of time lately checking out what various bloggers have to say about this and other issues. There are some very smart people out there with interesting perspectives. I don't know if this guy is "on the money" but I'm inclined to believe he is.



    <a href="http://www.davidwarrenonline.com/index.html"; target="_blank">Watch this space</a>



    [quote]Pay no attention to the suicide bombers, they are not currently the issue. Do not notice how Israel responds. The ceasefire talks that Anthony Zinni is chairing may stop or start. A fundamental shift has just occured in the relations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Dick Cheney has taken over from Ariel Sharon as Yasser Arafat's gaoler (or more precisely, probation officer). The Palestinians who thought they were fighting the Israelis, now find themselves staring directly at the United States.



    This is the meaning of the invitation the U.S. vice president extended to Mr. Arafat to meet him in Cairo, Monday, before the Arab League Summit in Beirut (on Wednesday and Thursday, next week). The invitation is conditional. Gen. Zinni must first report that Mr. Arafat is making a "100% effort" to stop terrorist attacks on Israel. As ever, Mr. Arafat thinks he will be the last to blink. He wants to see if Mr. Cheney will meet him, even after he has privately ordered his militias to continue with the carnage. Gen. Zinni, anticipating that, is now telling him it is an extremely stupid idea. But Mr. Arafat has a genius for this kind of stupidity, has found it is consistently rewarded, and why stop now?



    Because he is no longer dealing with Israel, or Mr. Sharon. He is instead staring down a U.S. administration that is about to decide whether it can live with him any more, and frankly doubts that it can. Mr. Cheney had, according to my information, actually told several Arab leaders during his regional tour that he would be personally taking over Mr. Arafat's file. The news was intended to reach Mr. Arafat from them, first.



    In an exquisite piece of diplomatic choreography, Colin Powell, the U.S. secretary of state, declared the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, under Mr. Arafat's command through the Fatah faction, to be an official "foreign terrorist organization" within hours of the suicide bombing it claimed, at the corner of Agrippas and King George St. in Jerusalem. President Bush paused in El Paso, to express his disappointment with Mr. Arafat's latest failure. And Gen. Zinni let Mr. Arafat personally understand the U.S. was aware the murderer, Mohammed Hashaika, had been released from Palestinian police detention in Ramallah at Mr. Arafat's instruction...<hr></blockquote>
  • Reply 144 of 761
    newnew Posts: 3,244member
    [quote] the number is more like 1 for 3.5, not 1 for 5 from sept 2000..(Get you facts right) <hr></blockquote>



    uhh no... the number is more like 6 to 1 acording to The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories:

    <a href="http://www.btselem.org/"; target="_blank">btselem.org</a>
  • Reply 145 of 761
    steve666steve666 Posts: 2,600member
    &gt;As for 666,

    Has the occupation of Palestine really helped? Today more kids got shot and killed by school and another died from a shot to the head 3 days ago. Does this help? Every day international criticism grows against Israel. Does this help? People are so hopeless as to kill them self in revenge on innocents, for innocents. Does occupation help? Will destroying roads, bombing jails, and shooting at medical crews help?

    Perhaps this man has a point... &lt;



    And do you think if Israel just pulled out of the territories the violence against them would stop? There are enough fanatics on the Palestinian side to carry on the violence regardless of what Israel does. They are trying to come to a peaceful conclusion but no country in the world would stand by while their citizens are being slaughtered.



    As for world opinion, the world isn't saving Israeli lives. World opinion pushed this peace plan which resulted in nothing but more death and violence. Screw world opinion.........................
  • Reply 146 of 761
    From today's Jerusalem Post.



    <a href="http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/03/27/LatestNews/LatestNews.46007.html"; target="_blank">http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/03/27/LatestNews/LatestNews.46007.html</a>;



    quote:



    (17:00) Palestinian ambulance driver caught transporting bomb



    Reserve soldiers at a mobile roadblock today captured a Palestinian Red Crescent ambulance driver who was caught transporting an explosive belt of the type detonated by suicide bombers, Israel Radio reported.



    The ambulance was stopped and searched between Nablus and Ramallah, and soldiers found the explosive belt under a stretcher upon which a Palestinian boy was lying. The boy's family was with him in the ambulance.



    The ambulance driver, Islam Jibril, a resident of the Balata refugee camp near Nablus, told interrogators he received the belt from Muhammad Titti, a senior Tanzim activist close to Palestinian Authority West Bank security chief Marwan Barghouti.



    The belt contained some 10 kilograms of explosives. IDF sappers detonated it in a controlled explosion





    mika.
  • Reply 147 of 761
    steve666steve666 Posts: 2,600member
    Another bombing today. israel should close the border to all palestinians for one month after every bombing. Let them wallow in their own shit and starve for awhile and see if that gets their attention.



    I tell you something-from the comments my friends here are making about the violence the palestinians have lost almost all support from even people who were not exactly pro-Israel. Some of them think Israel should just bomb the hell out of them. ...............................................
  • Reply 148 of 761
    newnew Posts: 3,244member
    For the first time, the whole of the arab world is ready to offer Israel peace and recognition. And the extreemist blow it all to pieces... there was a second attack (on a settlement) just now.

    The Isreali retribution will be the hardest yet.

    Oh, what a depressing day. First a chance for turn to the better, and now this...



    [ 03-28-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
  • Reply 149 of 761
    20 dead (so far) and 170 injured yesterday in one of the deadliest attacks ever.



    Since Zinni has been in the region Israel has suffered 2 more terrorists attacks but in the interest of peace there was no retaliation.



    Israel caved into the immense pressure not to retaliate because doing so would only make the situation worse (or so we've been told.)



    That worked so well, as seeing how maybe the worst ever terrorist attack just happened during the cease-fire negotiations.



    You bet Israel will respond. It is now obvious the Palestinians do not want peace, only to destroy Israel. Whether we respond to terror with retaliation, or whether we choose to restrain ourselves, it only gets worse.



    I have always believed in peace, but now I have changed my mind, it is time to destroy the Palestinian Authority once and for all as they have no intention of stopping the violence, for even as Israel stops retaliatory strikes, the Palestinians decide to continue to murder innocent civilians.



    [ 03-28-2002: Message edited by: MacsKickAss ]</p>
  • Reply 150 of 761
    Just as I have finished typing this another terrorist attack has occured. 3 dead and 2 wounded and a possible hostage situation.
  • Reply 151 of 761
    newnew Posts: 3,244member
    "You bet Israel will respond. It is now obvious the Palestinians do not want peace, only to destroy Israel. Whether we respond to terror with retaliation, or whether we choose to restrain ourselves, it only gets worse."



    You think these madmen speak for all the palestinians? Why would the PA shoot itself in the foot just now? When they have the whole arab sumit finally backing them for peacetalks and a palestinian state...
  • Reply 152 of 761
    andersanders Posts: 6,523member
    Lets try and use a little logic here.



    Why is perhaps the worst terrorist attack taking place while the entire arab world for the first time is making a plan that will normalize the relationship between them and Israel, a plan that Arafat is embracing fully? Of course there is groups that want the plan to fail and is prepared to fight it but who don´t representing more than a fraction of the Palestinians.



    Israel had a policy until very recently of not talking to the palestinians before there hadn´t been an attack in at least seven days and that was like giving those who don´t want peace an offer they couldn´t refuse. As long as they could get four suicide bombers a month they could have it their way (luckily Sharon realised that and cancelled that policy). And what we are seeing right now is the terrorists "natural" reaction to the arab peace plan. And the best Israel can do to feed the terrorists is to retaliate the terrorist attacks because it helps them justify their attacks and keep the cycle of violence running. Retaliation is exactly what the terrorists want.



    In short: Palestinians aren´t just Palestinians. Not more than Timothy McVeigh is Bush. And to say that the attacks today shows that Palestinians won´t have peace with Israel is as right as saying that the school shootings in US shows that the US population believe in murdering each other.
  • Reply 153 of 761
    outsideroutsider Posts: 6,008member
    Guys. If the Palistinian common man didn't want the extremists talking for them then why not turn these bastards in?! They LIVE with the common man! The common man KNOWS who the extremists are. They could turn them in. But they don't. Don't they realize these extremist are ruining any chance at long term peace?
  • Reply 154 of 761
    newnew Posts: 3,244member
    well, there is no simple solution here. To most palestinians, Isreal is still the main enemy and oppressor. Collaboration with Israel is seen as treason. And you've probably seen how these people are dealt with.

    I believe a change has to come from within. The PA has to deal with the extreemist. But right now they have neither the power nor the motivation to do this...
  • Reply 155 of 761
    Perhaps an ultimatum is in order, "President Arafat, if you do not stop the violence - for real - we will."



    And then, if Arafat really wants his people to have a home, he will make a 100% effor, not 50%, and he will crack down on terror. If he does not then he can expect the PA to be destroyed, possibly he could lose his life, and the territories will be re-occupied, and possibly the Palestinians expelled, and they will have to find 1 of 22 Arab states in which to live.



    Let's hope it doesn't come to that, but we're close, Arafat's run out of time.



    [ 03-28-2002: Message edited by: MacsKickAss ]</p>
  • Reply 156 of 761
    The history of public pronouncements repeats?



    Arafat and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, signed countless agreements in the late 1960?s. In a 1968 agreement the PLO specifically agreed to recognize Jordanian sovereignty and refrain from carrying weapons in Jordanian towns. Arafat violated these agreements as soon as it was possible to do so. Arafat In the 1970?s signed agreements with Lebanon, recognizing that state?s sovereignty, as well. Arafat violated these agreements as soon as it was possible to do so.



    Yet despite a clear history of duplicity, such that no Arab state would put stock in an agreement signed by Yasser Arafat, the State of Israel gambled its future on him. It was pure Jewish naivete. Many Israelis wanted to believe that there were honest intentions behind PLO leader Yasser Arafat?s signature on the 1990?s Oslo Accords.



    But in 1994, after signing the very first agreement between the PLO and Israel, Arafat made a speech in Arabic in Johannesburg, South Africa. Arafat turned to the story of the ?Meccan peace accord?.



    In that speech, Arafat compared the ?Gaza-Jericho First? Oslo agreement with Israel to the 628 CE Hudaibiya Pact between Mohammed and the Quraysh tribe that ruled Mecca at the time. Mohammed wanted Mecca for Islam, but did not as yet have the military wherewithal to do so. Therefore, he signed a ten-year peace accord with the leaders of Mecca. However, just two years later, in 630 CE, after Mohammed had built up his forces sufficiently, he violated the pact and assaulted the city. Arabs call the episode "hilam" - a war strategy.



    That ethos of the double-cross is very acceptable in the realm of Islam. It?s even praiseworthy in Islam. Many Israelis are not aware of this, but are now only beginning to get a glimpse of this reality.



    But some people are just too emotionally invested in dreams of peace. Sadly, what they do not yet realize, is that as long as they let these emotions cloud their better judgment, peace will never arrive.



    So, the history of public pronouncements repeats? And now, Arafat is being given yet another opportunity to sign yet another agreement.





    mika.



    [ 03-28-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
  • Reply 157 of 761
    andersanders Posts: 6,523member
    [quote]Originally posted by MacsKickAss:

    <strong>Perhaps an ultimatum is in order, "President Arafat, if you do not stop the violence - for real - we will."



    And then, if Arafat really wants his people to have a home, he will make a 100% effor, not 50%, and he will crack down on terror. If he does not then he can expect the PA to be destroyed, possibly he could lose his life, and the territories will be re-occupied, and possibly the Palestinians expelled, and they will have to find 1 of 22 Arab states in which to live.

    </strong><hr></blockquote>



    I am very happy that you actually want this to end with a palestinian state and a real peace. Not everyone here seems to want that.



    But I still can´t agree with you. 90+% of the palestinians have lived in the occupied areas or in Israel all their lifes and so have their grandparents and have done nothing against Israel. No matter what happens on the political level they all have an individual right to be treated fair. They have the right to have something to say about their life and who govern the area they live on. In a war it can be nessesary to occupy an area for some time but not for generations like Israel do. They either have to give up the area or to make it part of Israel and give the people all the rights Israelis have.



    And the palestinians can´t just go live in other arab countries. They are either from the land now known as Israel or in the occupied territories. What you suggest is like asking me to go and live in France (no offense Powerdoc ) because our queen offended Russia and they want our land in return. Or you to live in England because US is given back to the Indians.



    About the Arab peace plan. Its the best thing in a long time because it seems its backed up by all arab states, UN, US and EU and can bring peace between all arab states and Israel. I hope it will put huge pressure on Arafat as well as Israel. Only thing I really dislike is the part about Palestinians originating from Israel should be able to choose between compensation from their confiscated property or to go back to live in Israel. All this is according to an old UN resolution but when this has been discussed before it has generally been agreed that the last choice should be made so no one would choose it. I don´t believe that states should be build on religion as we build Israel but as it is now it would be impossible for Israel to accept any other situation than a large majority of its population being jews. So from a strategic POW they should reformulate that paragraph so the only real solution was compensation.
  • Reply 158 of 761
    Anders, if a Palestinian state is created, or the the territories are merged with Israel, do you think the violence will really stop?



    What they really want is the destruction of all of Israel, maybe not all of them think that, but they are at least sympathetic to the suicide bombers that will try to make that happen.



    What's happened is that we've given in completely to Arafat and the Palestinians yet that is not enough for them, for what they truly want is no Israel period, no matter how much land is given to them.
  • Reply 159 of 761
    thentrothentro Posts: 231member
    what is it that Palestinians want? What are they defending?

    Meny people like Binyamin Netanyahu believe that the sole purpose of the PA is to destroy Israel. An infact the whole intent of the Arab nations is to destroy Israel. I can see why he believes that. In 1948 the Arab states were against Israel. The Yom Kippur war 1973 was an attempt to expel Israel from their lands and failed. But now Israel is here for good.

    The Palestinians just want a home and to live like humans again. That is what the intifada is. An uprising to get a home land, once lost, back and to end the fear that consumes daly life. Oddly enough this is what Israel wants too.



    Netanyahu said today:

    "First, we must immediately dismantle the Palestinian Authority and expel Arafat. Second we must encircle the main Palestinian population centers, purge them of terrorists, and eradicate the terrorist infrastructure. Third, we must establish security separation lines that will allow Israeli armed forces to enter Palestinian territory, but prevent Palestinian terrorists from entering our towns and cities."



    This is the kind of voice that has Sharon ear now. I fear for all the people of the middle east tonight. Reports of tanks entering cities are coming in now. I fear that blood shall wash the streets and all hope will be lost. Those who have not hope can not be controlled. I fear that Israel has no hope. I fear that Palestinians are about to lose all hope...
  • Reply 160 of 761
    thentrothentro Posts: 231member
    "But Ra'anan Gissin, an Israeli government spokesman, said Arafat "has nothing to fear about his personal safety."





    What the hell is Israel trying to do start a massive mid-east war!!! What if they get attacked by other arab states trying to defend Arafat! What will the US do then!

    God Damn sharon and his henchmen. Whats next I wonder...

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