I know! Israel should just let the Palestinians kill a couple dozen jews a week. What's a couple jews. They have millions! If Israel just does nothing then the problem will just go away. What's so hard for them to understand?
Whats hard for them to understand is the root of the attacks and what the results of a larger scale war will be. If Israel did nothing the problem would NOT go away. Things COULD start to heal if they pulled fully out of occupied territories and work on peace, something Israel will not do. So they take the other side and will attempt to kill arafat (or capture him), and set up nazi like conditions over the occupied cities. This could escalate into a larger Israeli-Arab war that the US could get sucked into and cause major havoc, causing the deaths of thousands on both sides. This is what Israel cant understand.
This has not fully happened yet, but this slope just got alot more slippery.
thentro and New, you keep blaming Israel for the violence, but what have the Palistinians done for peace? What has Arafat done to stop the suicide bombers? Where is the outrage of the average palistinian against what the terrorists are doing to hamper the peace process?
Does anyone honestly think the palistinians WANT peace?! Not unless peace=the destruction of Israel.
20:54 PA sources: IDF takes over Arafat`s office building, confining him to one floor, cutting off electricity
20:50 Powell says terror caused situation, calls on Arafat to act against terror
</strong><hr></blockquote>
At least he gave him four minutes to do something. When dealing with terrorists you have to be hard (sorry this was one last laugh in a place of dying)
.
What is wrong with those two news clippings is that either do US not know whats going on in Israel but support it nonetheless or else it doesn´t know how to react. In both cases Israel is toying with US.
I dont think the US knows what to do now. I think its funny that zinni wants to still have negotiations. How can you have negotiations with a gun (now literally) at your head? They might as well take Arafat away and put him in jail for all the freedom he has now.
Also, I blame the bombers just as much for destroying peace. They are hurting there cause as much as Israel is. But look why they are doing it. Is it because they are Palestinian and thus just evil? Or is it because of abuse of their people over the occupation that has lasted far to long.
But look why they are doing it. Is it because they are Palestinian and thus just evil? Or is it because of abuse of their people over the occupation that has lasted far to long.
It's because their leaders tell them it's ok to kill jews. And the fact they can't ever even imagine living with those jews.
<strong>Also, I blame the bombers just as much for destroying peace. They are hurting there cause as much as Israel is. But look why they are doing it. Is it because they are Palestinian and thus just evil? Or is it because of abuse of their people over the occupation that has lasted far to long.</strong><hr></blockquote>No, it's because they are evil. I don't know how else you'd define evil - their culture is centered around killing themselves to kill civilians and children.
The only reason Israel is occupying those territories is because they were attacked repeatedly from those territories. They are defending themselves, and the Arabs are the aggressors.
<strong>If the arabs are the sole agressors, why is the death rate 1 israeli to 5 palestinians?</strong><hr></blockquote>If I attacked someone bigger than me, and I got beat up in the fight, I'd still be the aggressor.
BTW, after the last couple of weeks, I'm not sure that ratio is accurate anymore.
If someone attacks you, and you beat him, but then you go after his whole family, who's the agressor then?
I'm saying both parties are quite agressive... The big difference is Sharon and his cabinet has full control of their forces, while I believe Arafat has very little (if any) control right now...
Nobody (in their right mind) ever blamed the Israeli government for the Goldstein masacre...
About the Ratio, I checked it just now, but downgraded it from 1 to 6 to 1 to 5, just to be sure.
However I belive the IDF is working on those numbers right now... the current actions in the Arafat compund has killed 1 Israeli soldier, 5 palestinean police, 2 palestinean civilians.
It's because their leaders tell them it's ok for their soldiers to kill arabs. And the fact they can't ever even imagine living with those arabs.
That's a flawed analogy or satire. The Israeli leaders DON't EVER tell their populous to suicide bomb the enemy. And they DO live with arabs in Israel. But it is EXTREMELY RARE to see to see a jew living in a muslim nation among muslims.
(note my extreme use of CAPS. Makes me more right )
Of all the players with influence in that region... there is not a single party that really wants peace. Every so-called effort at a cease-fire is phoney, every call for a truce a sham. This craziness will go on and on and on and on, just like it has done for time immemorial. The Palestinians, (and Arab states in general) are indoctrinated as kids to hate the Jews and not recognise their right to exist in peace. Palestinian suicide bombers kill innocent Jews. The Israeli military bulldoze Palestinian farms, villages and homes and shoot kids who throw stones at the the symbols of Israeli occupation and oppression. Fellow Arab states regard Palestinians as 3rd class citizens and despite their huge oil wealth, have done next to nothing to invest in a stable Palestinian homeland.
Those who reap the most handsome rewards by the continuation of unrest are those who manufacture the tools of warfare. The market for arms in the region is vast. Israel has an unknown number of nuclear warheads (perhaps 150+ now). All sides feel threatened in one way or the other. Peace in the middle east will *never* happen so long as all sides feel threatened. Peace will *never* happen when profits/bottom lines of the biggest military-industrial entities are kept healthy by the constant clamor of governments in the region for more and more weapons.
It's all down to big-$$$ interests exploiting intolerances, rivalries, and hatreds which have been going on for centuries. It's almost as easy as printing money. A bigger battle than trying to get the Arabs and Israelis to live in peace with each other is getting the arms industry to sacrifice a portion of its fat profits. Peace just doesn't cut it, economically, most specially to economies which are sustained by warfare and the promotion of human misery.
[quote]That's a flawed analogy or satire. The Israeli leaders DON't EVER tell their populous to suicide bomb the enemy.<hr></blockquote>
Firstly; Not all of the Palestinian leaders tell the palestinians to go blow themselves up, NON of the PA leaders do.
Secondly; They don't need suicide bombers. They have all the tanks. But there are several Israeli leaders on the exteem right who approve of the killing of palestinian civilians...
[quote]
(note my extreme use of CAPS. Makes me more right <hr></blockquote>
Samantha: It's not about the $ its about the religion... Blaming it on the Arms-dealers is like blaming The Beermakers for alcoholism... Its all about political decisions. The Weapons are just the consequens... However a the US pouring weapons into the region hasen't exactly made things better...
>Firstly; Not all of the Palestinian leaders tell the palestinians to go blow themselves up, NON of the PA leaders do.
Secondly; They don't need suicide bombers. They have all the tanks. But there are several Israeli leaders on the exteem right who approve of the killing of palestinian civilians...<
None of the PA leaders tell them to!? Are you for real? The bulk of the bombers were from the military arm of fatah. Arafat talks peace in english, then in arabic tells them that they will storm Jerusalem. He is instigating the attacks because he feels the terror will make Israelis feel helpless and give the arabs what they want. Israel needed to let him know in a big way that terror will get them nowhere. In my opinion Israel should have killed him outright. Blow up the entire compound and then say 'Next?.. Thats what happens when you attack us while we are trying to formulate a peace plan.' Arabs understand violence, not peace. Israel may have to just force a peace plan on them. Leave all jewish settlements , shove Palestinians living in gaza into the West Bank and seal off the border with the West bank.
The Palestinians have never wanted peace. If they did they would have had it by now when Israel was ruled by doves Rabin and Barak. Their resort to violence is the cause of Israels actions. The Palestinians are their own worst enemy.
As for Arab countries coming to Arafats aid-never happen. They know they would lose and they can't stand the asshole....................................... ....................................
No, the bulk of bombers were not from fatah, and fatah is a "loose" organisation with a host of branches...
If you knew any arabic, you would know that the arafats speeches are about giving honor to all the palestinians who have died in the conflict. 40% of them under 18 years old. And most of the civilians or policemen killed in clashes with the IDF. The term "Martyr" applies to all of them, every casualty. Its a crude term to us, but so is "Crusade" to them...
[quote] Thats what happens when you attack us while we are trying to formulate a peace plan. <hr></blockquote>
I thought is was the arabs who just came up with a peace plan...
I thought is was the arabs who just came up with a peace plan...
Israel has been talking peace for the last 8 years, while being bombed by the very people it was trying to make peace with.
The 'arab' peace plan is dead in the water if they keep insisting on refugee returns to Israel. Palestinians lost the wars it fought against Israel-they aren't going back-period. They can move to the new palestinian state that would be set up and would have been set up by now if Arafat could keep the blood from his hands....................
Arafat should be feeling really lucky right now, he's still alive. The Israel gov't decided not to kill or expell him.
Will he stop the terror or will he just sit in his desk and "condemn" the suicide bombings and then order his generals to procure more arms from Iran and tell his militia leaders to kill a few dozen more Jews, then plead to the international community to end the so-called "Israeli aggression?"
And for those who think the Palestinians and the Arabs in general are justified, think about this.
Imagine you own a house. Some other people enslave you, persecute you, and exile you from your home.
A couple thousand years later you return to your house after your neighbourhood voted to split your house between you, and some other people that decided to like your house.
You say, sure, I'm a really nice guy, I'll share my house. However, the person does not like that, he wants all of your house for himself.
He gets his neighbours together and they try to force you to leave your half of the house, but they fail.
Over the next 54 years you try to make peace with guy in the other half of your house, you offer the other half to be his own.
But instead he commits acts of terror against you.
If you were forced from your house and later were able to return, wouldn't you want it back? Don't the Jewish People deserve their land back? Are the Palestinains right for killing Jews?
We offer them the Judea, Samaria (West Bank), and the Gaza strip, and East Jerusalem as their capitol. We offer them our rightful national homeland, yet they say no, its not enough and kill our innocent civilians.
How can anyone say that's right. How is that Israel's fault?? It's those evil Jews occupying the West Bank and Gaza. A terrible occupation against the Palestinain people so lets go kill those Jews.
<sarcasm> Well sorry for occuying our land</sarcasm>
Oh wait, we don't actually occupy the WB/Gaza, it was given over the Palestinians in the Oslo Accords in 93. Oops, looks like there's no occupation, and the few tanks and soldiers we send in to dismantle terrorist infrastructure is because the PA simply will not do it.
Comments
This has not fully happened yet, but this slope just got alot more slippery.
[ 03-29-2002: Message edited by: thentro ]</p>
What strikes you as wrong?
[quote]20:54\tPA sources: IDF takes over Arafat`s office building, confining him to one floor, cutting off electricity
20:50\tPowell says terror caused situation, calls on Arafat to act against terror<hr></blockquote>
And check out my new signature:
Does anyone honestly think the palistinians WANT peace?! Not unless peace=the destruction of Israel.
<strong>Consider these two late newsclippings:
What strikes you as wrong?
20:54 PA sources: IDF takes over Arafat`s office building, confining him to one floor, cutting off electricity
20:50 Powell says terror caused situation, calls on Arafat to act against terror
</strong><hr></blockquote>
At least he gave him four minutes to do something. When dealing with terrorists you have to be hard (sorry this was one last laugh in a place of dying)
.
What is wrong with those two news clippings is that either do US not know whats going on in Israel but support it nonetheless or else it doesn´t know how to react. In both cases Israel is toying with US.
[ 03-29-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]</p>
Also, I blame the bombers just as much for destroying peace. They are hurting there cause as much as Israel is. But look why they are doing it. Is it because they are Palestinian and thus just evil? Or is it because of abuse of their people over the occupation that has lasted far to long.
It's because their leaders tell them it's ok to kill jews. And the fact they can't ever even imagine living with those jews.
<stupid voice>
It's because their leaders tell them it's ok for their soldiers to kill arabs. And the fact they can't ever even imagine living with those arabs.
</stupid voice>
Let's try to get beyond this level of argumentation...
<strong>Also, I blame the bombers just as much for destroying peace. They are hurting there cause as much as Israel is. But look why they are doing it. Is it because they are Palestinian and thus just evil? Or is it because of abuse of their people over the occupation that has lasted far to long.</strong><hr></blockquote>No, it's because they are evil. I don't know how else you'd define evil - their culture is centered around killing themselves to kill civilians and children.
The only reason Israel is occupying those territories is because they were attacked repeatedly from those territories. They are defending themselves, and the Arabs are the aggressors.
<strong>If the arabs are the sole agressors, why is the death rate 1 israeli to 5 palestinians?</strong><hr></blockquote>If I attacked someone bigger than me, and I got beat up in the fight, I'd still be the aggressor.
BTW, after the last couple of weeks, I'm not sure that ratio is accurate anymore.
I'm saying both parties are quite agressive... The big difference is Sharon and his cabinet has full control of their forces, while I believe Arafat has very little (if any) control right now...
Nobody (in their right mind) ever blamed the Israeli government for the Goldstein masacre...
However I belive the IDF is working on those numbers right now... the current actions in the Arafat compund has killed 1 Israeli soldier, 5 palestinean police, 2 palestinean civilians.
That's a flawed analogy or satire. The Israeli leaders DON't EVER tell their populous to suicide bomb the enemy. And they DO live with arabs in Israel. But it is EXTREMELY RARE to see to see a jew living in a muslim nation among muslims.
(note my extreme use of CAPS. Makes me more right
Those who reap the most handsome rewards by the continuation of unrest are those who manufacture the tools of warfare. The market for arms in the region is vast. Israel has an unknown number of nuclear warheads (perhaps 150+ now). All sides feel threatened in one way or the other. Peace in the middle east will *never* happen so long as all sides feel threatened. Peace will *never* happen when profits/bottom lines of the biggest military-industrial entities are kept healthy by the constant clamor of governments in the region for more and more weapons.
It's all down to big-$$$ interests exploiting intolerances, rivalries, and hatreds which have been going on for centuries. It's almost as easy as printing money. A bigger battle than trying to get the Arabs and Israelis to live in peace with each other is getting the arms industry to sacrifice a portion of its fat profits. Peace just doesn't cut it, economically, most specially to economies which are sustained by warfare and the promotion of human misery.
Firstly; Not all of the Palestinian leaders tell the palestinians to go blow themselves up, NON of the PA leaders do.
Secondly; They don't need suicide bombers. They have all the tanks. But there are several Israeli leaders on the exteem right who approve of the killing of palestinian civilians...
[quote]
(note my extreme use of CAPS. Makes me more right <hr></blockquote>
LOL <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Samantha: It's not about the $ its about the religion... Blaming it on the Arms-dealers is like blaming The Beermakers for alcoholism... Its all about political decisions. The Weapons are just the consequens... However a the US pouring weapons into the region hasen't exactly made things better...
Secondly; They don't need suicide bombers. They have all the tanks. But there are several Israeli leaders on the exteem right who approve of the killing of palestinian civilians...<
None of the PA leaders tell them to!? Are you for real? The bulk of the bombers were from the military arm of fatah. Arafat talks peace in english, then in arabic tells them that they will storm Jerusalem. He is instigating the attacks because he feels the terror will make Israelis feel helpless and give the arabs what they want. Israel needed to let him know in a big way that terror will get them nowhere. In my opinion Israel should have killed him outright. Blow up the entire compound and then say 'Next?.. Thats what happens when you attack us while we are trying to formulate a peace plan.' Arabs understand violence, not peace. Israel may have to just force a peace plan on them. Leave all jewish settlements , shove Palestinians living in gaza into the West Bank and seal off the border with the West bank.
The Palestinians have never wanted peace. If they did they would have had it by now when Israel was ruled by doves Rabin and Barak. Their resort to violence is the cause of Israels actions. The Palestinians are their own worst enemy.
As for Arab countries coming to Arafats aid-never happen. They know they would lose and they can't stand the asshole....................................... ....................................
If you knew any arabic, you would know that the arafats speeches are about giving honor to all the palestinians who have died in the conflict. 40% of them under 18 years old. And most of the civilians or policemen killed in clashes with the IDF. The term "Martyr" applies to all of them, every casualty. Its a crude term to us, but so is "Crusade" to them...
[quote] Thats what happens when you attack us while we are trying to formulate a peace plan. <hr></blockquote>
I thought is was the arabs who just came up with a peace plan...
Israel has been talking peace for the last 8 years, while being bombed by the very people it was trying to make peace with.
The 'arab' peace plan is dead in the water if they keep insisting on refugee returns to Israel. Palestinians lost the wars it fought against Israel-they aren't going back-period. They can move to the new palestinian state that would be set up and would have been set up by now if Arafat could keep the blood from his hands....................
Will he stop the terror or will he just sit in his desk and "condemn" the suicide bombings and then order his generals to procure more arms from Iran and tell his militia leaders to kill a few dozen more Jews, then plead to the international community to end the so-called "Israeli aggression?"
And for those who think the Palestinians and the Arabs in general are justified, think about this.
Imagine you own a house. Some other people enslave you, persecute you, and exile you from your home.
A couple thousand years later you return to your house after your neighbourhood voted to split your house between you, and some other people that decided to like your house.
You say, sure, I'm a really nice guy, I'll share my house. However, the person does not like that, he wants all of your house for himself.
He gets his neighbours together and they try to force you to leave your half of the house, but they fail.
Over the next 54 years you try to make peace with guy in the other half of your house, you offer the other half to be his own.
But instead he commits acts of terror against you.
If you were forced from your house and later were able to return, wouldn't you want it back? Don't the Jewish People deserve their land back? Are the Palestinains right for killing Jews?
We offer them the Judea, Samaria (West Bank), and the Gaza strip, and East Jerusalem as their capitol. We offer them our rightful national homeland, yet they say no, its not enough and kill our innocent civilians.
How can anyone say that's right. How is that Israel's fault?? It's those evil Jews occupying the West Bank and Gaza. A terrible occupation against the Palestinain people so lets go kill those Jews.
<sarcasm> Well sorry for occuying our land</sarcasm>
Oh wait, we don't actually occupy the WB/Gaza, it was given over the Palestinians in the Oslo Accords in 93. Oops, looks like there's no occupation, and the few tanks and soldiers we send in to dismantle terrorist infrastructure is because the PA simply will not do it.
So how the hell is all this Israel's fault?
[ 03-30-2002: Message edited by: MacsKickAss ]</p>