Violence in Israel/Palestine
Okay - I just want to go on a rant here since I'm sick of reading about violence in Israel and Palestine:
My bitches against Israel:
1. Get out of the occupied terroritories, including East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights. They're not yours - guess what, the owners want them back.
2. Stopping shooting refugees - this solves nothing and only creates even more pissed off Palestinians. Plus it makes your army look like a bunch of thugs.
3. Stop legalized torture. Sensory deprivation and violent shaking are torture. Admit it.
4. Apoligize to the U.S. for the U.S.S. Liberty and investigate
5. Forget Jonathan Pollard - he's a traitor who did it for the money, not Israel.
6. Stop sucking up so much American money. Pay for your own damn wars.
7. Stop the practice of collective punishement. Bulldozing entire Palestinian neighborhoods because a sniper once stopped by is unjust.
8. And I won't start about massacaring Egyptian POWS in the Sinai; driving Palestinian villagers out of Israel; your extremists groups; your refusal to compromise; your spying "art" students; your roadblocks in the occupied terroritories; your destruction of the Palestinian economy and education system; your inability to investigate your own army's abuses; etc.
My bitches against the Palestinians:
1. Stop shooting civilians and bombing discos - it only makes you look like terrorists (and some of you truly are). Especially don't attack civilians who aren't busy occupying your land.
2. Accept that Israel is going to exist. The best you can hope for is the pre-1967 border.
3. Drop the anti-Americanism. Probably reasonable since we back Israel, but counterproductive since you need the U.S. as much as the Israelis do.
4. Keep the religious extremists out. This will only get you caught up in the U.S.'s war on terror.
5. Apologize for the 1972 Munich attack, the Achille Luaro, the Rome Airport, etc.
6. Democracy works - try it some time.
7. And finally, Yasser, will you please shave off that ratty looking beard. It's driving me nuts.
Okay - my bitches are 8 against Israel and 7 (really 6) against the Palestinians. Undoubtably I'll be made out to be anti-semitic by Israeli apologists, although I'm not. I have no problem with Judaism (many of my friends are Jews) or the right of Israel to exist.
Whew - I feel better now. Having changed no ones mind, please feel free to tell me how wrong I am, why I'm anti-semitic, anti-arab, can't spell, don't understand the situation, blah, blah, blah....
My bitches against Israel:
1. Get out of the occupied terroritories, including East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights. They're not yours - guess what, the owners want them back.
2. Stopping shooting refugees - this solves nothing and only creates even more pissed off Palestinians. Plus it makes your army look like a bunch of thugs.
3. Stop legalized torture. Sensory deprivation and violent shaking are torture. Admit it.
4. Apoligize to the U.S. for the U.S.S. Liberty and investigate
5. Forget Jonathan Pollard - he's a traitor who did it for the money, not Israel.
6. Stop sucking up so much American money. Pay for your own damn wars.
7. Stop the practice of collective punishement. Bulldozing entire Palestinian neighborhoods because a sniper once stopped by is unjust.
8. And I won't start about massacaring Egyptian POWS in the Sinai; driving Palestinian villagers out of Israel; your extremists groups; your refusal to compromise; your spying "art" students; your roadblocks in the occupied terroritories; your destruction of the Palestinian economy and education system; your inability to investigate your own army's abuses; etc.
My bitches against the Palestinians:
1. Stop shooting civilians and bombing discos - it only makes you look like terrorists (and some of you truly are). Especially don't attack civilians who aren't busy occupying your land.
2. Accept that Israel is going to exist. The best you can hope for is the pre-1967 border.
3. Drop the anti-Americanism. Probably reasonable since we back Israel, but counterproductive since you need the U.S. as much as the Israelis do.
4. Keep the religious extremists out. This will only get you caught up in the U.S.'s war on terror.
5. Apologize for the 1972 Munich attack, the Achille Luaro, the Rome Airport, etc.
6. Democracy works - try it some time.
7. And finally, Yasser, will you please shave off that ratty looking beard. It's driving me nuts.
Okay - my bitches are 8 against Israel and 7 (really 6) against the Palestinians. Undoubtably I'll be made out to be anti-semitic by Israeli apologists, although I'm not. I have no problem with Judaism (many of my friends are Jews) or the right of Israel to exist.
Whew - I feel better now. Having changed no ones mind, please feel free to tell me how wrong I am, why I'm anti-semitic, anti-arab, can't spell, don't understand the situation, blah, blah, blah....
Comments
If the two sides want war then so be it. If the Palestinian terrorist want to hide in refugee camps among women and children then they have to accept collateral damage when the Israelis attack the terrorist cells.
Maybe when one side realizes that they have lost for real then we'll have peace.
<strong>
If the two sides want war then so be it. If the Palestinian terrorist want to hide in refugee camps among women and children then they have to accept collateral damage when the Israelis attack the terrorist cells.
Maybe when one side realizes that they have lost for real then we'll have peace.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The terrorist accept collateral damage, many of them think the best thing that can occure is to die for their ideals (killing innocent is a strange ideal indeed , but it's an another debate where everybody here in AI will have the same opinion). The innocent victims (those who are not terrorist) does not accept to be collateral victims.
Futhermore like you have stated already, Palestine is not a democratia, so the palestinians have no power to stop the terrorist, and you can be sure if they trie, that they will be killed, their family conspued in public and prosecuted. What can an innocent people against a professional army of murderer ?
[ 03-08-2002: Message edited by: powerdoc ]</p>
[ 03-08-2002: Message edited by: Scott H. ]</p>
<strong>Yea and Gandhi had no power to stop the British and MLK had no power to stop discrimination.</strong><hr></blockquote>
There was very few terrorist in India, and Gandhi was a good leader at the opposite of Arafat, put Arafat at the place of Gandhi and i am sure that the revolution of india should have been very different .
I am sure that you will agree Scott that there is no comparison possible between Gandhi and Arafat or Martin Luther King and Arafat. It's a great chance for a minority or a countrie to have a great leader that let change the world in peace.
[ 03-08-2002: Message edited by: Scott H. ]</p>
However, aren't many of Israel's actions also terrorist in nature? For example, legal torture, collective punishment, forced relocation, appalling collateral damage (every day this week we've read about the Israeli army shooting Palestinian women and children). Being a Palestinian in the occupied territories must be a nightmare, whether you resist or not.
Frankly, I see little moral high ground on either side. Both sides either target civilians and/or show little concern for civilian casualties.
I simply wish both sides would reach a permanent and equitable settlement and stop the violence. The thought of all the lost lives and wasted potential makes me sick.
<strong>Hummmm? Everyone duck! Scott_H the "racist" is coming. What religions were Ganhdi, MLK and Walesa. What religion were they not? Hummm? I think I see something there?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I never said you are racist Scott. Perhaps you think of someone else in this board.
and Gandhi , MLK and Walesa are great peoples. I never say the same thing of Arafat in any of my posts. All of them where respectable and denounced the violence even of their own side ( i do not know either for Walesa) .
BTW the fact these men are great have nothing to do with what i said in my previous post that the fact Arafat "f***ck" does not excuse the collateral damage of innocent palestinians who don't live in a democratia under and they have a bad leader.
All the men you take in example are great, and are i think one of the greatest heroe of modern history. But i doubt that the way that Sharon act have something in common with them.
[ 03-08-2002: Message edited by: powerdoc ]</p>
BTW, there are plenty of Jews who think that the only good Palestinian is a dead Palestinian. Remember the bomb planted in the Palestinian school a few days ago by a Jewish terrorist group? Israel isn't exactly full of saints either.
<strong>On average, history prove me correct.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, it doesn't. You need to put together an argument, not just throw out unsupported statements.
And I can make a similar argument about Israel and the Jews using your logic (although I don't believe it). After all, there has been a Jewish state for roughly 50 years, which has been involved in near constant conflict, including wars it initiated in 1967 and 1982. And the last Jew who attempted to seriously negotiate peace was assassinated by one of his own. Guess, that makes Jews warmongers and not peacemakers, right Scott? Again, I don't believe this argument, but it's the logic you're using.
Where's the new thinking in the Islamic world? Free excahnge of ideas? There is none. Speak out about Islam in a way that is not accepted and you end up like Salman Rushdie. It's very hard to defend this part if the world.
Furthermore, you're still generalizing to an inappopriate extent about Islam. If I pointed out that nearly all of Africa is beset by dictatorship, instability, war, corruption, and has little influence on world culture or intellectual/technological developments would you condemn blacks because of it. Of course not, you condemn the conditions, e.g., dictatorship, corruption, etc.; and not the religious/ethnic group(s). But this is what you do to the Islamic world.
I'm getting the idea that you're an unabashed supporter of Israel. What is your position on the conflict? What are your ideas to resolving it?
Have you read this thread:
<a href="http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=000832"; target="_blank">http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=000832</A>;
[ 03-08-2002: Message edited by: The Blue Meanie ]</p>
<strong>...
your refusal to compromise
...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Oh please. Israel was read to do just that. Clinton got a great deal for the terrorist. But Arafat turned his back on it.
[quote]Originally posted by gobble gobble:
<strong>...
your spying "art" students
...</strong><hr></blockquote>
From what I read the spying art students is turning out to be false. Maybe a false rumor started by anti-semites?
<strong>
I'm getting the idea that you're an unabashed supporter of Israel. What is your position on the conflict? What are your ideas to resolving it?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Scott thinks Palestinians are "dirty" and Muslims "backwards" and "barbaric" and the only way to solve the conflict is for the Palestinians to submit to Israel.
I think I am one of the people who has called scott a racist in the past. From what I have read, I stand by it but I wish I did not have to.
A) It has nothing to do with Palestinian problem. The Palestinians have as much hatred for the Arab nations that failed to support them as they do for the Israelis
C) Israel would lose a lot. The Golan Heights is a highly strategic position. It allows Israel to control the water flow into the Jordan River from the Sea of Galilee, which is crucial in a desert nation. Additionally, it's a militarily important position, because 1) Syrian tanks were able to safely attack Israel in multiple wars from the higher ground and 2) there's an Israeli radar station in the terrority.
I find interesting that, 2 years ago, there were serious discussion of a peace accord between Israel and Syria, but it just dropped off the face of the earth.