Seems to me that the best way to solve this whole situation is to...
GO BACK IN TIME!!
Yes, that's right ladies and gentlemen, go back in time, and prevent those ca-razy Zionists from invading Palestine in the first place!
But, that does not seem so feasable, does it? At least not yet.
So, we're stuck with an occupation of Palestinian soil that is now more than a generation old, which means there are people living there that did not *choose* to be born there, and they certainly don't deserve their land taken from them either.
I find it very interesting that the US media fails to give the US population easy access to all the peace plans thrown back and forth throughout the 90s, the ones that Arafat would be "crazy not to agree to." It's simple; we must go with the UN partition proposal.
hehe Now all we gotta do is convince Sharon and Arafat of this...
That would be quite witty if the original quote was totally false. The sad thing is that Muslims are the most intolerant and backwards religion (I can show you some recent links about girls getting burned in buildings alive and others...), and the muslim nations are the poorest ones in the world. But I'm sure you'll find a way to blame America for that.
The sad thing is that Muslims are the most intolerant and backwards religion (I can show you some recent links about girls getting burned in buildings alive and others...), and the muslim nations are the poorest ones in the world.
Have we forgotten OIL? The Arab states are among the richest in the world. The problem is that most Arab states are still theocratic dictatorships, with the monarchy (somehow we seem easier with that term than dictatorial family?) hoarding all the wealth for themselves. Islam is NOT a backwards religion, but the fundamentalists who control the countries (and therefore the education system)are. The selected quotes from the Koran you see on the nightly news aren't any worse than quotes from the Old Testament.
Ancient Islamic civilizations invented the ARABIC number system we use today, they invented algebra (from the arab word al-jabr) while we were wallowing around in huts, and Romans were trying to figure out how to do higher math with their numeral system (they couldn't). Islam's history is one marked with intellectual advancement, tolerance, and progress.
Similar claims can be made of supposedly "normal" religions such as Christianity, but have we forgotten the Crusades, or the brutal Inquisition?
With Islam, the media has taught us only the bad parts.
How would Christians react if newscasters condemned Christianity because of the violent and genocidal passages in the Old Testament?
[quote] "When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations -- the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you -- 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy" (Deuteronomy 7) <hr></blockquote>
The Arab states are among the richest in the world?
Some few are. Most are not.
quote:
Ancient Islamic civilizations invented the ARABIC number system we use today?
I don?t mind you giving credit to Moslems or Arabs when that credit is due. But in this case, it is not. You might want to pick up the book by Charles Seife titled: "Zero: The Biography of a Dangerous Idea". It petty much answers that idiotic claim.
"When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations -- the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you -- 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy" (Deuteronomy 7)
At least they didn?t try to reinvent history like some people here?
The idea here is that Islam is not any greater nor any more inherently wrong than Judaism or Christianity. Atrocities have been committed in the name of a god, and still are today.
My problem is the fact that Zionists took Palestine in the first place, based off of a claim from a kingdom that rose and fell more than two thousand years ago.
The wholesale slaughter and expulsion of an entire region of indigenous people should not be condoned by *any* religion, or any levelheaded person for that matter.
Those are factual statements, and say nothing about my love or hate of Moslems. And I thought you claimed to be Jewish..
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well I think that counts as an opinion from what I learned in grade school.
I never claimed to be Jewish. I did say I had relations to Jewish culture and was not to clear as to how. I was defending my self from an anti-semitism charge. For the record I am technically Christian but open to a wide range of religions.
The idea here is that Islam is not any greater nor any more inherently wrong than Judaism or Christianity. Atrocities have been committed in the name of a god, and still are today.
I don't know enough about Islam as a religion to comment either way. Nor am I really interested to learn more about Islam. At any rate, I wasn?t talking about Islam as a religion, but rather was referring to Islamic culture and civilization as I see it today.
quote:
My problem is the fact that Zionists took Palestine in the first place, based off of a claim from a kingdom that rose and fell more than two thousand years ago.
Well, at least they had a prior claim to the land. Something that the Arabs never did.
quote:
The wholesale slaughter and expulsion of an entire region of indigenous people should not be condoned by *any* religion, or any levelheaded person for that matter.
It was a fact of life then. We wouldn?t have lost our home in Egypt if it were different. And even in our modern times, Jews in Europe still suffered from that fact of life.
quote:
For the record I am technically Christian
quote:
PC^ sure hates us some Muslims <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
At least get your story straight... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
Sure, the Zionists can make claims to their "homeland," but that does not give them the right to forcibly remove/systematically murder a people (sound familiar?) that had lived there for more than a thousand years.
An excellent article about the origins of this conflict, Zionist motivations, and Muslim reactions can be found here:
Also the words "indigenous people" do not really apply very well here. The Hebrews, as they were called then, were in Egypt for only 400 years before their return to the Land of Israel, and their re-conquest of that land.
Similar claims can be made of supposedly "normal" religions such as Christianity, but have we forgotten the Crusades, or the brutal Inquisition?
With Islam, the media has taught us only the bad parts.
How would Christians react if newscasters condemned Christianity because of the violent and genocidal passages in the Old Testament?
The Crusades and the Inquisition were the distant past. They were also condemned by many other Cristians at the time. The Inquisition was also localized to a certain area and is hardly representative of the cathlic church today. I'm not defending them at all (I have my own beef with christianity in the last 1500 years) but christians are less likely to think like a herd like the islam world.
[quote] but christians are less likely to think like a herd like the islam world. <hr></blockquote>
Sorry about the amount of reading I'm putting on you, but I thought that what <a href="http://www.crosscurrents.org/hassan.htm"; target="_blank">this muslim</a> has to say might interest you...
To me this guy is more interested in being a "Muslim(tm)" than being a muslim. I work with 2 people who are muslim, and you would never know it unless you really taked to them. They dress moderately and are respectful and adhere to their religious beliefs without being in-your-face about it. Then there is this guy who wears full garb, big beard, musk, starts every sentence off with "As a devout muslim,..." ,etc. Who's the better muslim? Is it the guy that over does it or the moderates? Is it the "Muslim(tm)" or the muslim? Are you a better muslim because you have a longer beard or a beard at all...
[quote]The Jewish kingdoms were only one of many periods in ancient Palestine
"The extended kingdoms of David and Solomon, on which the Zionists base their territorial demands, endured for only about 73 years...Then it fell apart...[Even] if we allow independence to the entire life of the ancient Jewish kingdoms, from David's conquest of Canaan in 1000 B.C. to the wiping out of Judah in 586 B.C., we arrive at [only] a 414 year Jewish rule." Illene Beatty, "Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan."
More on Canaanite civilization
"Recent archeological digs have provided evidence that Jerusalem was a big and fortified city already in 1800 BCE...Findings show that the sophisticated water system heretofor attributed to the conquering Israelites pre-dated them by eight centuries and was even more sophisticated than imagined...Dr. Ronny Reich, who directed the excavation along with Eli Shuikrun, said the entire system was built as a single complex by Canaanites in the Middle Bronze Period, around 1800 BCE." The Jewish Bulletin, July 31st, 1998.
How long has Palestine been a specifically Arab country?
"Palestine became a predominately Arab and Islamic country by the end of the seventh century. Almost immediately thereafter its boundaries and its characteristics - including its name in Arabic, Filastin - became known to the entire Islamic world, as much for its fertility and beauty as for its religious significance...In 1516, Palestine became a province of the Ottoman Empire, but this made it no less fertile, no less Arab or Islamic...Sixty percent of the population was in agriculture; the balance was divided between townspeople and a relatively small nomadic group. All these people believed themselves to belong in a land called Palestine, despite their feelings that they were also members of a large Arab nation...Despite the steady arrival in Palestine of Jewish colonists after 1882, it is important to realize that not until the few weeks immediately preceding the establishment of Israel in the spring of 1948 was there ever anything other than a huge Arab majority. For example, the Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314." Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."
<strong>The idea here is that Islam is not any greater nor any more inherently wrong than Judaism or Christianity. Atrocities have been committed in the name of a god, and still are today.
My problem is the fact that Zionists took Palestine in the first place, based off of a claim from a kingdom that rose and fell more than two thousand years ago.
The wholesale slaughter and expulsion of an entire region of indigenous people should not be condoned by *any* religion, or any levelheaded person for that matter.</strong><hr></blockquote>
There has never been a wholesale slaughter. Any 'expulsions' would never had occurred if Israel wasn't attacked. Get your facts straight.................
Comments
GO BACK IN TIME!!
Yes, that's right ladies and gentlemen, go back in time, and prevent those ca-razy Zionists from invading Palestine in the first place!
But, that does not seem so feasable, does it? At least not yet.
So, we're stuck with an occupation of Palestinian soil that is now more than a generation old, which means there are people living there that did not *choose* to be born there, and they certainly don't deserve their land taken from them either.
I find it very interesting that the US media fails to give the US population easy access to all the peace plans thrown back and forth throughout the 90s, the ones that Arafat would be "crazy not to agree to." It's simple; we must go with the UN partition proposal.
hehe Now all we gotta do is convince Sharon and Arafat of this...
violence saddens me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
PC^ sure hates us some Muslims
oh wait... but he's not a racist
That would be quite witty if the original quote was totally false. The sad thing is that Muslims are the most intolerant and backwards religion (I can show you some recent links about girls getting burned in buildings alive and others...), and the muslim nations are the poorest ones in the world. But I'm sure you'll find a way to blame America for that.
Have we forgotten OIL? The Arab states are among the richest in the world. The problem is that most Arab states are still theocratic dictatorships, with the monarchy (somehow we seem easier with that term than dictatorial family?) hoarding all the wealth for themselves. Islam is NOT a backwards religion, but the fundamentalists who control the countries (and therefore the education system)are. The selected quotes from the Koran you see on the nightly news aren't any worse than quotes from the Old Testament.
Ancient Islamic civilizations invented the ARABIC number system we use today, they invented algebra (from the arab word al-jabr) while we were wallowing around in huts, and Romans were trying to figure out how to do higher math with their numeral system (they couldn't). Islam's history is one marked with intellectual advancement, tolerance, and progress.
Similar claims can be made of supposedly "normal" religions such as Christianity, but have we forgotten the Crusades, or the brutal Inquisition?
With Islam, the media has taught us only the bad parts.
How would Christians react if newscasters condemned Christianity because of the violent and genocidal passages in the Old Testament?
[quote] "When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations -- the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you -- 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy" (Deuteronomy 7) <hr></blockquote>
The Arab states are among the richest in the world?
Some few are. Most are not.
quote:
Ancient Islamic civilizations invented the ARABIC number system we use today?
I don?t mind you giving credit to Moslems or Arabs when that credit is due. But in this case, it is not. You might want to pick up the book by Charles Seife titled: "Zero: The Biography of a Dangerous Idea". It petty much answers that idiotic claim.
Here?s a link: <a href="http://www.users.cloud9.net/~cgseife/aboutzero.html"; target="_blank">http://www.users.cloud9.net/~cgseife/aboutzero.html</a>;
quote:
"When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations -- the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you -- 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy" (Deuteronomy 7)
At least they didn?t try to reinvent history like some people here?
mika.
My problem is the fact that Zionists took Palestine in the first place, based off of a claim from a kingdom that rose and fell more than two thousand years ago.
The wholesale slaughter and expulsion of an entire region of indigenous people should not be condoned by *any* religion, or any levelheaded person for that matter.
<strong>
Those are factual statements, and say nothing about my love or hate of Moslems. And I thought you claimed to be Jewish..
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well I think that counts as an opinion from what I learned in grade school.
I never claimed to be Jewish. I did say I had relations to Jewish culture and was not to clear as to how. I was defending my self from an anti-semitism charge. For the record I am technically Christian but open to a wide range of religions.
The idea here is that Islam is not any greater nor any more inherently wrong than Judaism or Christianity. Atrocities have been committed in the name of a god, and still are today.
I don't know enough about Islam as a religion to comment either way. Nor am I really interested to learn more about Islam. At any rate, I wasn?t talking about Islam as a religion, but rather was referring to Islamic culture and civilization as I see it today.
quote:
My problem is the fact that Zionists took Palestine in the first place, based off of a claim from a kingdom that rose and fell more than two thousand years ago.
Well, at least they had a prior claim to the land. Something that the Arabs never did.
quote:
The wholesale slaughter and expulsion of an entire region of indigenous people should not be condoned by *any* religion, or any levelheaded person for that matter.
It was a fact of life then. We wouldn?t have lost our home in Egypt if it were different. And even in our modern times, Jews in Europe still suffered from that fact of life.
quote:
For the record I am technically Christian
quote:
PC^ sure hates us some Muslims <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
At least get your story straight... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
mika
[ 04-08-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
An excellent article about the origins of this conflict, Zionist motivations, and Muslim reactions can be found here:
<a href="http://www.wrmea.com/jews_for_justice/index.html"; target="_blank">http://www.wrmea.com/jews_for_justice/index.html</a>;
An interesting read.
If they were true, would we be in our present dilemma ?
mika
[ 04-08-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
mika.
<a href="http://www.aril.org/galtung.htm"; target="_blank">Religions, hard and soft.</a>
Yes, the same norwegian guy... Relax Killa, nobody in Norway likes him either...
With Islam, the media has taught us only the bad parts.
How would Christians react if newscasters condemned Christianity because of the violent and genocidal passages in the Old Testament?
The Crusades and the Inquisition were the distant past. They were also condemned by many other Cristians at the time. The Inquisition was also localized to a certain area and is hardly representative of the cathlic church today. I'm not defending them at all (I have my own beef with christianity in the last 1500 years) but christians are less likely to think like a herd like the islam world.
<strong>Did any of you (other than outsider) read this?:
<a href="http://www.aril.org/galtung.htm"; target="_blank">Religions, hard and soft.</a>
Yes, the same norwegian guy... Relax Killa, nobody in Norway likes him either...</strong><hr></blockquote>
What's the point? Sorry New. This guy is a dodo.
mika.
[ 04-08-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
1987 \tRight Livelihood Award, 1987
1988 \tNorwegian Humanist Prize, 1988
1990 \tSocrates Prize for Adult Education, 1990
1993 \tBajaj International Award for Promoting Gandhian Values, 1993
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1975 \tDr honoris causa, University of Tampere, 1975, peace studies
1976 \tDr honoris causa, University of Cluj, 1976, future studies
1987 \tDr honoris causa, Uppsala University, 1987, social sciences
1990 \tDr honoris causa, Soka University, Tokyo, 1990, peace/buddhism
1995 \tDr honoris causa, Universität Osnabrück, 1995, peace studies
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1981 \tProfessor honorario, Universidad de Alicante, Alicante 1981
1984 - 1993 \tHonorarprofessor, Freie Universität Berlin, 1984 - 1993
1986 \tHonorary professor, Sichuan University, Chengdu, 1986
1993 \tHonorarprofessor, Universität Witten/Herdecke, Witten, 1993
Sorry about the amount of reading I'm putting on you, but I thought that what <a href="http://www.crosscurrents.org/hassan.htm"; target="_blank">this muslim</a> has to say might interest you...
<a href="http://www.wrmea.com/jews_for_justice/index.html"; target="_blank">www.wrmea.com/jews_for_justice</a>
An interesting read. <hr></blockquote>
KILLA, did you really read this:
(just a small clipping)
[quote]The Jewish kingdoms were only one of many periods in ancient Palestine
"The extended kingdoms of David and Solomon, on which the Zionists base their territorial demands, endured for only about 73 years...Then it fell apart...[Even] if we allow independence to the entire life of the ancient Jewish kingdoms, from David's conquest of Canaan in 1000 B.C. to the wiping out of Judah in 586 B.C., we arrive at [only] a 414 year Jewish rule." Illene Beatty, "Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan."
More on Canaanite civilization
"Recent archeological digs have provided evidence that Jerusalem was a big and fortified city already in 1800 BCE...Findings show that the sophisticated water system heretofor attributed to the conquering Israelites pre-dated them by eight centuries and was even more sophisticated than imagined...Dr. Ronny Reich, who directed the excavation along with Eli Shuikrun, said the entire system was built as a single complex by Canaanites in the Middle Bronze Period, around 1800 BCE." The Jewish Bulletin, July 31st, 1998.
How long has Palestine been a specifically Arab country?
"Palestine became a predominately Arab and Islamic country by the end of the seventh century. Almost immediately thereafter its boundaries and its characteristics - including its name in Arabic, Filastin - became known to the entire Islamic world, as much for its fertility and beauty as for its religious significance...In 1516, Palestine became a province of the Ottoman Empire, but this made it no less fertile, no less Arab or Islamic...Sixty percent of the population was in agriculture; the balance was divided between townspeople and a relatively small nomadic group. All these people believed themselves to belong in a land called Palestine, despite their feelings that they were also members of a large Arab nation...Despite the steady arrival in Palestine of Jewish colonists after 1882, it is important to realize that not until the few weeks immediately preceding the establishment of Israel in the spring of 1948 was there ever anything other than a huge Arab majority. For example, the Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314." Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."
<hr></blockquote>
[ 04-08-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
<strong>The idea here is that Islam is not any greater nor any more inherently wrong than Judaism or Christianity. Atrocities have been committed in the name of a god, and still are today.
My problem is the fact that Zionists took Palestine in the first place, based off of a claim from a kingdom that rose and fell more than two thousand years ago.
The wholesale slaughter and expulsion of an entire region of indigenous people should not be condoned by *any* religion, or any levelheaded person for that matter.</strong><hr></blockquote>
There has never been a wholesale slaughter. Any 'expulsions' would never had occurred if Israel wasn't attacked. Get your facts straight.................