<strong> What's saddest is that all these people are dead-simply for being a Jew.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think we should be careful to keep a distinction between jew and israeli. Hitler was after jews, Palistinian suicide bombers are after Israelies. Islam has been a very accepting religion ever since the Ottoman empire ruled over all this land and allowed Jews and Christians to live in its empire without being taxed. The Palastinian beef is with the Israeli and not the jew and I think that is very important to point out. Many israeli muslims have died in this conflict also. Just a final thought- many more innocent palastinians have died in this conflict than innocent israelies so when one condems the suicide bombings, I believe in behooves them to condem the over reaction by the Israeli government!
[quote]These days Palestinians celebrate the suicides in newspaper announcements that read, perversely, like wedding invitations. "The Abdel Jawad and Assad families and their relatives inside the West Bank and in the Diaspora declare the martyrdom of their son, the martyr Ahmen Hafez Sa'adat," reads a March 30 notice for the 22-year-old killer of four Israelis in a shooting attack. Palestinian children play a game called "Being a Martyr," in which the "martyr" buries himself in a shallow grave. And the job of bomber comes with established cash bonuses and health benefits for the surviving family. How else could the Palestinian boy or girl next door hope to be pictured on key chains and T shirts?<hr></blockquote>
[quote]After a bombing, the sponsoring organization usually distributes to the media a video documenting the bomber's last, triumphant words. The organization pays for the funeral, which includes a tent outside the family's home where neighbors can come to offer condolences and drink coffee. Hamas pays its bombers' survivors a permanent pension of $300 to $600 a month in addition to bankrolling the family's health care and the education of the bomber's children. Iraqi President Saddam Hussein also funds a one-time $20,000 payment for the families--increased from $10,000 about six months ago in a show of solidarity.<hr></blockquote>
With this constant, never ending violent threat against civilians, how can you expect Israel to sit idly by letting their people get blown up? Something has to give. Well at least the family of the killer got some good cash out of it. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
With this constant, never ending violent threat against civilians, how can you expect Israel to sit idly by letting their people get blown up? Something has to give. Well at least the family of the killer got some good cash out of it. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Let's not forget to add the word sanctioned.
With this constant, never ending, sanctioned violent threat against civilians, how can you expect Israel to sit idly by letting their people get blown up?
Just when you think Israel might have been a bit too agressive or over the top, the Arab nations in question earlier had to vote that it was OK for suicide bombers to blow up civilians.
Arafat: "On this occasion, I would like once again to reiterate our condemnation of yesterday's operation in Netanya, in which a number of innocent Israeli civilians were killed and wounded. This operation constitutes a deviation from our policy and a violation of our national and human values. I affirm our commitment to working toward an immediate cease-fire, as we informed General Zinni. We highly value his efforts. We informed him that we are ready for the immediate implementation of the Tenet's work plan without conditions, and without prejudicing any of its articles. Also, we have informed him of our readiness to implement the Mitchell Report recommendations in cooperation with the four-way US-Russian-European-UN committee headed by Gen. Zinni."
Source: Arafat speech broadcast on Palestinian TV, in Arabic, on 28 March 2002, at 20:08 GMT.
also:
Arafat: "Today, I emphasize once again the complete and immediate halt to all armed operations. Once again, I call for a complete halt to all operations, especially suicidal operations, which we have always condemned. We will punish all those who carry out and mastermind such operations. This also applies to the firing of mortar shells, which have no objective but to provide an excuse for the Israeli attacks on us, our people, our children, and our women. Any violation of this decision will be considered an attempt to harm the higher national interests of our people and of our Arab nation."
Source: Speech by Yasir Arafat, PA president and PLO chairman on the occasion of Id al-Fitr in Ramallah, Gaza Palestine Satellite Channel Television, in Arabic, on 16 December 2001 at 16:00 GMT.
Basically the point is we are NOT in the situation that Palistinians are in. We wouldn't let it get to that point. And Bush is the commander and chief of the armed forces and the head of the executive branch. He does not have the same capacity as Arafat. In the United States, our state officials and Federal law enforcement has the responsibility to make sure people don't end up doing that. And they don't. So something must be right.
Tim McVeigh was an exeption as there are always exceptions. But we took care of him.
<strong>Does every american listen to Bush, and does he actually have control over them? Who's fault is that?</strong><hr></blockquote>Yes. The American military would not start bombing another country without approval from civilian political leaders. If they did, it certainly would be Bush's fault.
[edit:]
These are not rogue individuals doing these suicide bombings. They are organized by groups like Hamas and Fatah. Read that article I linked above - they couldn't do it on their own.
That's why the analogy to the American military is the only fair analogy - not to individuals acting on their own. There is an infrastructure there that is engaging in the suicide bombings.
<strong>Yes. The American military would not start bombing another country without approval from civilian political leaders. If they did, it certainly would be Bush's fault.</strong><hr></blockquote>
There is no comparison possible between US and Palestine indeed
We are not talking about palestinian millitary here. Infact the Palestinian Atority only have (had) a police force, not a millitary.
Let us look at the recent statement from one of Isreals "civil" political leaders.
(extreem, yes, but a part of the government until recently):
[quote]Lieberman: use gas to force Palestinians out of Nativity Church
Far-right National Union-Yisrael Beiteinu party chief Avigdor Lieberman said Wednesday that Israeli forces should employ gas to force Palestinian militants out of the Church of the Nativity.
Lieberman told Army Radio that instead of endangering IDF infantrymen, Israel should order aerial bombings of militants in refugee camps. He said that the United States and NATO had often taken this course in the past, adding that "In southern Afghanistan, there were days that the United States wiped out 400 people a day in aerial bombings."
The former cabinet minister quit the government last month in protest over perceived policy concessions by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon over Yasser Arafat and his Palestinian Authority.
Repeating a demand that the IDF go after Arafat physically in the Ramallah compound to which the PA leader has been confned, Lieberman said he would tell the cabinet, were he still a member:
"I demand erasing the mukata [Arafat's compound] from the face of the earth, with everyone inside. I demand going into every single hole, carry out a total mobilization, and clean out the area, but with a thorough-going cleaning - not an effort here and an effort there, not a limited operation, but an full-out war. How long do we have to talk about these bandits, these criminals, these terrorists?"
Asked if he also advocated destroying the Church of the Nativity, by tradition the site of the birth of Jesus and one of the holiest sites in Christianity, Lieberman said "We don't need to. We have enough [other] means.
"We can put gas in there and take them out - they'll simply come out," Lieberman said. "We have enough techinical means. We need neither harm the church nor obliterate it. It all depends on the political echelon. It must make a decision and give the order to get them out of there."
<strong>We are not talking about palestinian millitary here. Infact the Palestinian Atority only have (had) a police force, not a millitary.</strong><hr></blockquote>Fatah and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades are the de facto PLO military. And they collaborate closely with Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Hizbolah. Together, they're like a NATO for terrorists.
linking the PLO or the PA to al-axa, hamas or any other is foolish ... yesterday maybe... but not today... we're at loggerheads because the israelis don't care to differentiate.
you also said 'they couldn't do it on their own'... heheee, tell tim mcveigh that.
from Beirut Oklahoma,
cuss
p.s.
[ 04-10-2002: Message edited by: little cuss ]</p>
Comments
<strong> What's saddest is that all these people are dead-simply for being a Jew.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think we should be careful to keep a distinction between jew and israeli. Hitler was after jews, Palistinian suicide bombers are after Israelies. Islam has been a very accepting religion ever since the Ottoman empire ruled over all this land and allowed Jews and Christians to live in its empire without being taxed. The Palastinian beef is with the Israeli and not the jew and I think that is very important to point out. Many israeli muslims have died in this conflict also. Just a final thought- many more innocent palastinians have died in this conflict than innocent israelies so when one condems the suicide bombings, I believe in behooves them to condem the over reaction by the Israeli government!
Some excerpts:
[quote]These days Palestinians celebrate the suicides in newspaper announcements that read, perversely, like wedding invitations. "The Abdel Jawad and Assad families and their relatives inside the West Bank and in the Diaspora declare the martyrdom of their son, the martyr Ahmen Hafez Sa'adat," reads a March 30 notice for the 22-year-old killer of four Israelis in a shooting attack. Palestinian children play a game called "Being a Martyr," in which the "martyr" buries himself in a shallow grave. And the job of bomber comes with established cash bonuses and health benefits for the surviving family. How else could the Palestinian boy or girl next door hope to be pictured on key chains and T shirts?<hr></blockquote>
[quote]After a bombing, the sponsoring organization usually distributes to the media a video documenting the bomber's last, triumphant words. The organization pays for the funeral, which includes a tent outside the family's home where neighbors can come to offer condolences and drink coffee. Hamas pays its bombers' survivors a permanent pension of $300 to $600 a month in addition to bankrolling the family's health care and the education of the bomber's children. Iraqi President Saddam Hussein also funds a one-time $20,000 payment for the families--increased from $10,000 about six months ago in a show of solidarity.<hr></blockquote>
<strong>
This is good reflect of my opinion too.
With this constant, never ending violent threat against civilians, how can you expect Israel to sit idly by letting their people get blown up? Something has to give. Well at least the family of the killer got some good cash out of it. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
<strong><a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/04/10/mideast/index.html"; target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/04/10/mideast/index.html</a>;
With this constant, never ending violent threat against civilians, how can you expect Israel to sit idly by letting their people get blown up? Something has to give. Well at least the family of the killer got some good cash out of it. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Let's not forget to add the word sanctioned.
With this constant, never ending, sanctioned violent threat against civilians, how can you expect Israel to sit idly by letting their people get blown up?
Just when you think Israel might have been a bit too agressive or over the top, the Arab nations in question earlier had to vote that it was OK for suicide bombers to blow up civilians.
Arafat: "On this occasion, I would like once again to reiterate our condemnation of yesterday's operation in Netanya, in which a number of innocent Israeli civilians were killed and wounded. This operation constitutes a deviation from our policy and a violation of our national and human values. I affirm our commitment to working toward an immediate cease-fire, as we informed General Zinni. We highly value his efforts. We informed him that we are ready for the immediate implementation of the Tenet's work plan without conditions, and without prejudicing any of its articles. Also, we have informed him of our readiness to implement the Mitchell Report recommendations in cooperation with the four-way US-Russian-European-UN committee headed by Gen. Zinni."
Source: Arafat speech broadcast on Palestinian TV, in Arabic, on 28 March 2002, at 20:08 GMT.
also:
Arafat: "Today, I emphasize once again the complete and immediate halt to all armed operations. Once again, I call for a complete halt to all operations, especially suicidal operations, which we have always condemned. We will punish all those who carry out and mastermind such operations. This also applies to the firing of mortar shells, which have no objective but to provide an excuse for the Israeli attacks on us, our people, our children, and our women. Any violation of this decision will be considered an attempt to harm the higher national interests of our people and of our Arab nation."
Source: Speech by Yasir Arafat, PA president and PLO chairman on the occasion of Id al-Fitr in Ramallah, Gaza Palestine Satellite Channel Television, in Arabic, on 16 December 2001 at 16:00 GMT.
Tim McVeigh was an exeption as there are always exceptions. But we took care of him.
<strong>Does every american listen to Bush, and does he actually have control over them? Who's fault is that?</strong><hr></blockquote>Yes. The American military would not start bombing another country without approval from civilian political leaders. If they did, it certainly would be Bush's fault.
[edit:]
These are not rogue individuals doing these suicide bombings. They are organized by groups like Hamas and Fatah. Read that article I linked above - they couldn't do it on their own.
That's why the analogy to the American military is the only fair analogy - not to individuals acting on their own. There is an infrastructure there that is engaging in the suicide bombings.
[ 04-10-2002: Message edited by: BRussell ]</p>
<strong>Yes. The American military would not start bombing another country without approval from civilian political leaders. If they did, it certainly would be Bush's fault.</strong><hr></blockquote>
There is no comparison possible between US and Palestine indeed
Let us look at the recent statement from one of Isreals "civil" political leaders.
(extreem, yes, but a part of the government until recently):
[quote]Lieberman: use gas to force Palestinians out of Nativity Church
Far-right National Union-Yisrael Beiteinu party chief Avigdor Lieberman said Wednesday that Israeli forces should employ gas to force Palestinian militants out of the Church of the Nativity.
Lieberman told Army Radio that instead of endangering IDF infantrymen, Israel should order aerial bombings of militants in refugee camps. He said that the United States and NATO had often taken this course in the past, adding that "In southern Afghanistan, there were days that the United States wiped out 400 people a day in aerial bombings."
The former cabinet minister quit the government last month in protest over perceived policy concessions by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon over Yasser Arafat and his Palestinian Authority.
Repeating a demand that the IDF go after Arafat physically in the Ramallah compound to which the PA leader has been confned, Lieberman said he would tell the cabinet, were he still a member:
"I demand erasing the mukata [Arafat's compound] from the face of the earth, with everyone inside. I demand going into every single hole, carry out a total mobilization, and clean out the area, but with a thorough-going cleaning - not an effort here and an effort there, not a limited operation, but an full-out war. How long do we have to talk about these bandits, these criminals, these terrorists?"
Asked if he also advocated destroying the Church of the Nativity, by tradition the site of the birth of Jesus and one of the holiest sites in Christianity, Lieberman said "We don't need to. We have enough [other] means.
"We can put gas in there and take them out - they'll simply come out," Lieberman said. "We have enough techinical means. We need neither harm the church nor obliterate it. It all depends on the political echelon. It must make a decision and give the order to get them out of there."
<hr></blockquote>
<strong>We are not talking about palestinian millitary here. Infact the Palestinian Atority only have (had) a police force, not a millitary.</strong><hr></blockquote>Fatah and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades are the de facto PLO military. And they collaborate closely with Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Hizbolah. Together, they're like a NATO for terrorists.
you also said 'they couldn't do it on their own'... heheee, tell tim mcveigh that.
from Beirut Oklahoma,
cuss
p.s.
[ 04-10-2002: Message edited by: little cuss ]</p>
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
[ 04-10-2002: Message edited by: Samantha Joanne Ollendale ]</p>
At least in 1993...
do i need one?
cuss