To all of you who have called for a palestinian Gandhi. This quote might interest you:
[quote]"Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French...What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct...If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs... As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds." Mahatma Gandhi, quoted in "A Land of Two Peoples" ed. Mendes-Flohr.<hr></blockquote>
What is "Arabs"? A race? A country? If so than which one? The term Arabs is so blurred you can't even use it to describe a group of people! Iranians don't even consider themselves Arab! Yet they hate Israel. I think the term Islamic World should be used instead of Arabs because it is the Islamic World that has great issues with israel and jews, not "Arabs". It's like saying North America belongs to the whites.
Not really... Too many people claiming to be Jews, and claiming to know what?s best for Jews? yet, speaking with the same tongue as the Arabs, and quoting Arab sources (Edward Said) ... makes you wonder?
quote:
David's conquest of Canaan
?!?
It was Joshua, not David, who conquered Canaan?
quote:
Findings show that the sophisticated water system
There is little doubt it was the Judeans who built that water system. I can?t remember if it was the Assyrians or the Babylonians who lay siege to the city? But it certainly wasn?t the Arabs who were defending it. Did they even exist as a people back then? Anyway, if you have more info on this, I?d be really interested to learn more..
Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French
Israel belongs to the Arabs, just as much as North Africa, Spain, Serbia, Hungary, Austria, India, etc. belongs to the Arabs. You get my point? They?re a barbaric, empire building peoples who expanded their empire through the sword. To rationalize their claims to our land, without even addressing this issue, is highly suspect in my judgment.
[quote] Not really... Too many people claiming to be Jews, and claiming to know what?s best for Jews? yet, speaking with the same tongue as the Arabs, and quoting Arab sources (Edward Said) ... makes you wonder? <hr></blockquote>
I agree that the article had a lot of leftist sources, but that doesn't neccessarily make it wrong. I fond all the quotations interesting. Especially those of Zionists and the Israeli politicians...
Anyway, why don't you comment on those issues, and not the details...
[quote]outsider, you said you could spot an arab a mile off... wtf? and you were supposed to give me a trainer course too.. <hr></blockquote>
I'm an arab, your an arab, she's an arab, he's an arab. Wouldn't you like to be an arab too?
? why don't you comment on those issues, and not the details...
You know what they say about the details...
There?s just too much BS on that site. It hard for me to even try to read it. And we already covered most of that stuff.
Anyway, what about that Canadian article I posted about Norway and Sweden? Can we proceed on that front? I don?t want you backtracking if you get into trouble with your arguments?
New, I think where you get into trouble, is exactly for reason above. You can?t build a logical argument and then gloss over the details on which that logic is based on. What I mean to say is, you can?t for example, say that an object that has wings will therefore logically be able to fly. And then say, well, those wings are not really wings. Or say they are wings, but they have huge holes in them. You just can?t build a sound argument this way. And this is exactly what I hope to illustrate to you with that Canadian essay.
Hey New and Little cuss, do you guys need help telling the difference between an asian, black and a white? Is it that hard to tell the difference between races? Or maybe you guys are on such a utopian plataeu above the rest of us that you are above distinguishing between them. But back here in Reality an arab CAN tell the difference between a jew/white and an arab. Just like I can and everyone else that isn't legally (or mentally) blind.
[quote] What I mean to say is, you can?t for example, say that an object that has wings will therefore logically be able to fly. And then say, well, those wings are not really wings. Or say they are wings, but they have huge holes in them. <hr></blockquote>
Well, that certainly made everything a whole lot clearer...
[quote] Hey New and Little cuss, do you guys need help telling the difference between an asian, black and a white? <hr></blockquote>
OK now you're just being silly. What are you trying to demonstate? That I'm a racist? That because I say I can basically tell someones race by looking at them that I am a bigot? Or are you trying to undermine anything I say because you don't like my viewpoints? Trully, why the long drawn out discussion when I said that a Palestinian can easily tell the difference between a jew/American/white and an arab?
[quote]Trully, why the long drawn out discussion when I said that a Palestinian can easily tell the difference between a jew/American/white and an arab?<hr></blockquote>
It's just not this simple. You have for instance american arabs (Christians and muslims), African jews, Jews that have always lived in palestine, Palestinian Christians, White christians who live in the middle-east (yes, many in the palestinian areas), and so on. A jew is not just a jew, an arab not just an arab... It is the sterotypes that drives people apart...
Yes, but when you say 'jew' are you refering to their religious affiliation or their ethnicity? To me the term arab only refers to someones ethnicity despite whatever religion they may be. But jew may mean either a person of jewish heritage or a person of the jewish faith. I agree you cant tell the difference between an arabic jew and an arabic christian for example. But if your a militant looking for a jew to kill, are you going to spend too much time trying to make the distinction? In that area of the world being white is almost always a declaration of what your religion is; jewish or christian. So to the palistinians (certain ones mind you) white=enemy (95%) of the time.
Concerning that canadian essay, what part is it you want clarification on?
Actually, I'd rather talk a bit about South Africa just now, since our friend Scott thought it was such a lot of lazy minded anti-Jew Euro-speak, I'd like to argue the opposit.
There are many parallels here, for those who are willing to look.
-The history of ANC and PLO is not unlike. Even the US first labeled ANC as a terrorist organization. ANC abandoned the "non-violence" and started an armed struggle.
-The simillarity between the "black homelands" and the "occupied territories" can certainly be found. Armed settlements with their own roads strongly resembel the way with farmers set up house in parts on South Africa.
-The South African National Defence Force (SANDF) and the IDF millitary supremacy in the their region and their practice of fighting ANC/PLO in neighbouring contries are much alike.
However, much more interesting is what happend when South Africa moved away from Aparheid and embraced full democracy.
On the basis of Archbishop Desmond Tutu's words: "Without forgiveness there can be no future, but without confession there can be no forgiveness", the Commission for Truth & Reconciliation has plowed through case after case of violence, abuse and injustice (from all sides). Offering "closure" to people and communities. The aim is ofcourse to get move beyond conflicts from the past, and towards beeing able to live together in the future.
To make conditions so that people eventually can learn to trust each other again, one needs create understanding. Not build more walls, a bufferzone to "protect" Isreal from the palestinians is parhaps the stupidest idea I've ever heard. Such a buffer can never do anything but letting hate dig in deeper. Building fences does not make good neighbours.
And one more thing: Just like Apartheid South Africa did with the blacks Israel is benefiting from the palestinian work force. Israel is hurting big time right now because they don´t have a underclass working in all the shitty jobs in Israel.
Post Apartheid South Africa is a living proof of Galtungs ideas despite all the problems they have.
I get Newsweek and they had an article about the suicide bombers with a picture collage of the bombers and their Israeli victims. What struck me was how diverse the Israeli population is-it almost looked like a collage of an American city-black, white, brown, asian. What's saddest is that all these people are dead-simply for being a Jew.
Incidently, not much has been discussed here about how there was a meeting of Muslim countries and Malaysia tried to get a resolution passed condemning the suicide bombers as terrorists-it didn't pass. Doesn't say much for the majority of Muslims does it? Don't hear too much about it in the European press, do you? The UN didn't pass a resolution condemning the suicide bombers did it? Gee, I wonder why Israel is fed up with the UN and world opinion........................................
"Expressing its grave concern at the further deterioration of the situation, including the recent suicide bombings in Israel and the military attack against the headquarters of the president of the Palestinian Authority,"
and the World media talks about the bombers all the time as well as whats going on in the occupied territories. The media in Israel just reports on the bombers and whether or not to kill Arafat. No wonder the world is fed up with Israeli opinion...
on another note, I thought this cartoon was worth a smile. Im not quoting this as a historical source mind you, just food for thought
-David Horsey, Washington, The Seattle
I dont know about you but Israel REALY needs to start worying about those darn Canaanites again.
Update-the Muslim forum actually passed a resolution saying its OK for suicide bombers to strike civilians. Bosnia and malaysia wanted to pass a resolution condemning the suicide bombings as terrorism. The Arabs revolted and made them pass a resolution basically saying its OK for Palestinians to slaughter Israalit civilians.
Yeh, that phony Saudi proposal for 'peace' was just so sincere........................................
Comments
[quote]"Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French...What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct...If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs... As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds." Mahatma Gandhi, quoted in "A Land of Two Peoples" ed. Mendes-Flohr.<hr></blockquote>
KILLA, did you really read this:
Not really... Too many people claiming to be Jews, and claiming to know what?s best for Jews? yet, speaking with the same tongue as the Arabs, and quoting Arab sources (Edward Said) ... makes you wonder?
quote:
David's conquest of Canaan
?!?
It was Joshua, not David, who conquered Canaan?
quote:
Findings show that the sophisticated water system
There is little doubt it was the Judeans who built that water system. I can?t remember if it was the Assyrians or the Babylonians who lay siege to the city? But it certainly wasn?t the Arabs who were defending it. Did they even exist as a people back then? Anyway, if you have more info on this, I?d be really interested to learn more..
mika.
[ 04-08-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French
Israel belongs to the Arabs, just as much as North Africa, Spain, Serbia, Hungary, Austria, India, etc. belongs to the Arabs. You get my point? They?re a barbaric, empire building peoples who expanded their empire through the sword. To rationalize their claims to our land, without even addressing this issue, is highly suspect in my judgment.
mika.
[ 04-08-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
outsider, you said you could spot an arab a mile off... wtf? and you were supposed to give me a trainer course too..
now i'm depressed,
me
p.s. i thought fer sure we could base all our racial profiling on yer keen perceptions.
I agree that the article had a lot of leftist sources, but that doesn't neccessarily make it wrong. I fond all the quotations interesting. Especially those of Zionists and the Israeli politicians...
Anyway, why don't you comment on those issues, and not the details...
[quote]outsider, you said you could spot an arab a mile off... wtf? and you were supposed to give me a trainer course too.. <hr></blockquote>
I'm an arab, your an arab, she's an arab, he's an arab. Wouldn't you like to be an arab too?
? why don't you comment on those issues, and not the details...
You know what they say about the details...
There?s just too much BS on that site. It hard for me to even try to read it. And we already covered most of that stuff.
Anyway, what about that Canadian article I posted about Norway and Sweden? Can we proceed on that front? I don?t want you backtracking if you get into trouble with your arguments?
mika.
[ 04-09-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
mika.
[ 04-09-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
Well, that certainly made everything a whole lot clearer...
[quote] Hey New and Little cuss, do you guys need help telling the difference between an asian, black and a white? <hr></blockquote>
Yes, please explain to the basic differences...
OK now you're just being silly. What are you trying to demonstate? That I'm a racist? That because I say I can basically tell someones race by looking at them that I am a bigot? Or are you trying to undermine anything I say because you don't like my viewpoints? Trully, why the long drawn out discussion when I said that a Palestinian can easily tell the difference between a jew/American/white and an arab?
[quote]Trully, why the long drawn out discussion when I said that a Palestinian can easily tell the difference between a jew/American/white and an arab?<hr></blockquote>
It's just not this simple. You have for instance american arabs (Christians and muslims), African jews, Jews that have always lived in palestine, Palestinian Christians, White christians who live in the middle-east (yes, many in the palestinian areas), and so on. A jew is not just a jew, an arab not just an arab... It is the sterotypes that drives people apart...
An arab is a member of a ethnic group (with many subgroups).
You can decide wether you want to be a jew or not (at least in a normal society). Beeing arab your stuck with...
[ 04-09-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
Actually, I'd rather talk a bit about South Africa just now, since our friend Scott thought it was such a lot of lazy minded anti-Jew Euro-speak, I'd like to argue the opposit.
There are many parallels here, for those who are willing to look.
-The history of ANC and PLO is not unlike. Even the US first labeled ANC as a terrorist organization. ANC abandoned the "non-violence" and started an armed struggle.
-The simillarity between the "black homelands" and the "occupied territories" can certainly be found. Armed settlements with their own roads strongly resembel the way with farmers set up house in parts on South Africa.
-The South African National Defence Force (SANDF) and the IDF millitary supremacy in the their region and their practice of fighting ANC/PLO in neighbouring contries are much alike.
However, much more interesting is what happend when South Africa moved away from Aparheid and embraced full democracy.
On the basis of Archbishop Desmond Tutu's words: "Without forgiveness there can be no future, but without confession there can be no forgiveness", the Commission for Truth & Reconciliation has plowed through case after case of violence, abuse and injustice (from all sides). Offering "closure" to people and communities. The aim is ofcourse to get move beyond conflicts from the past, and towards beeing able to live together in the future.
To make conditions so that people eventually can learn to trust each other again, one needs create understanding. Not build more walls, a bufferzone to "protect" Isreal from the palestinians is parhaps the stupidest idea I've ever heard. Such a buffer can never do anything but letting hate dig in deeper. Building fences does not make good neighbours.
Post Apartheid South Africa is a living proof of Galtungs ideas despite all the problems they have.
Incidently, not much has been discussed here about how there was a meeting of Muslim countries and Malaysia tried to get a resolution passed condemning the suicide bombers as terrorists-it didn't pass. Doesn't say much for the majority of Muslims does it? Don't hear too much about it in the European press, do you? The UN didn't pass a resolution condemning the suicide bombers did it? Gee, I wonder why Israel is fed up with the UN and world opinion........................................
"Expressing its grave concern at the further deterioration of the situation, including the recent suicide bombings in Israel and the military attack against the headquarters of the president of the Palestinian Authority,"
and the World media talks about the bombers all the time as well as whats going on in the occupied territories. The media in Israel just reports on the bombers and whether or not to kill Arafat. No wonder the world is fed up with Israeli opinion...
on another note, I thought this cartoon was worth a smile. Im not quoting this as a historical source mind you, just food for thought
-David Horsey, Washington, The Seattle
I dont know about you but Israel REALY needs to start worying about those darn Canaanites again.
Yeh, that phony Saudi proposal for 'peace' was just so sincere........................................