<strong>So our main point of conflict seems to be about the pre-67 borders. The palestinians will never settle for less,
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well they will have to ! the pre 1967 borders are Unpractical these days 30 years have changed lots of things... anyway these borders were the 1950 ceasefire line, its not like these were some UN defined borders , even UN resolution 242 calls for a withdrawal to borders to be decided on during negotiations between the sides. yes the Palestinians will get around 97% of the land but they will have to be pragmatic and negotiate on the lines... that was never the problem anyway.... the sticking points at Camp David were the fact that Arafat insisted on 2 things israel would never give him:
1. Right of return for Palestinian refugees into all of Israel.
2. He wanted Palestinian control over Jerusalem's holy places including the Jewish walling wall and the Church of the holy sepulcher . basically he wanted full control of the Old city of Jerusalem.
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
there's no doubt about that. So if the conflict is about israeli security, then a withdrawal to the pre-67 borders is the only solution that will work in the long run. The alternatives are:
1. Constant martial law, which will be impossible to maintain, and will invoke international reactions sooner or later. or:
2. Full annexation. which is not an alternative to the political leadership in Israel, because the shere amount of palestinians citizens would treathen Israels status as a "jewish state".
(3. Annexation and expulsion of (parts of) the population of the OT. This not an alternative as the concequences would be dire.)
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You forget about the 4th and most possible option (which is becoming more and more feasible and popular in Israel ATM) that is a unilateral Israeli withdrawal from the OT to military viable lines with the creation of borders with heavy security apparatus and possible American and UK peace monitors. this will be quite bad for the Palestinians but it will finally eliminate the occupation and stop 99% of Palestinian terrorist attacks. we have this setup on the borders with Syria and Lebanon and although it has not provided Israel with peace it has definitely provided for security.
Its time for the Palestinians to get their act together and start negotiating seriously or else this will probably happen. either way the occupation is destined to end.
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
The question then remains: Is Israel occupying the territories just for security reasons or because they have aspirations for the land. As soon as we admit that these aspirations do exist, the sooner we can put an end to them. This is the only reasonable way forward.</strong><hr></blockquote>
NO question there, every poll on this point done in Israel proves that around 80% of Israelis want out of the OT ! ... the question is weather Palestinians and Arabs are willing to finally accept Israel's existence, forget about their dream of pushing us back into the sea and stop their terror coz if they don't they will have to learn to live with Israeli incursions into their land and a perpetual war.
[quote] 1. Right of return for Palestinian refugees into all of Israel.
2. He wanted Palestinian control over Jerusalem's holy places including the Jewish walling wall and the Church of the holy sepulcher . basically he wanted full control of the Old city of Jerusalem.
<hr></blockquote>
You forgot about the settlements. What does camp D say about them? (I know you know I know...)
And why 97%? why not 103? there is plenty of land there not yet settled. Why does peace have to be a bazardeal?
[quote] You forget about the 4th and most possible option <hr></blockquote>
I listed the alternatives to withdrawal... Read the post
[quote] every poll on this point done in Israel proves that around 80% of Israelis want out of the OT ! <hr></blockquote>
So only (max) 20% israelis support the idea that the OT settlements should stay? Why then is Sharon in power? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
<strong>You forgot about the settlements. What does camp D say about them? (I know you know I know...)
And why 97%? why not 103? there is plenty of land there not yet settled. Why does peace have to be a bazardeal?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Camp David ( and Sharem) offered to dismantle most of the settlements deep inside the OT and incorporate large population clusters on the edge of the OT ( Israeli borders ) with Israel proper , in return the Palestinians would have received Israeli land which is unpopulated around the Gaza strip and the west bank a kind of a land trade if you like. the point is they will have their land their state and enough space for them to get back to real life.
Why does it have to be a bazardeal ? any peace is a result of negotiations .. call it bazardeal .. that's the way things work in our world.
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
I listed the alternatives to withdrawal... Read the post
</strong><hr></blockquote>
No you didn't list the alternative I mentioned ... if this happens the Palestinians will be in the shit coz their economy will be in trouble they will not have a decent system of transport between the west bank and Gaza. Also if this happens it will certainly be with borders that are nowhere near the pre 67 green line ... it will be borders drawn based on one consideration only .. the security of Israel ! which means they will almost certainly loose land.
They can't fight Israel and expect Israel to trust them .. they will loose out with this solution but as I said it will eliminate the occupation. and put the IDF in a better position to defend Israel from.
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
So only (max) 20% Israelis support the idea that the OT settlements should stay? Why then is Sharon in power?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
New, how simplistic can you be ? so anyone who supports Sharon supports the settlements ? even Sharon said Israel will have to make very big concessions once a real peace is negotiated on .. Sharon was the one who implemented the peace deal with Egypt he was the one who forcefully removed Israeli settlers from the Sinai peninsula before it was returned to Egypt. I don't get your question .. what are you trying to say ?
The basic and most important point about my post ( which you cleverly circumnavigated) is the issue of the right of return of refugees and the control of Jerusalem's old city ... these are the Mega sticking points not the points re borders of the Palestinian state.
The settlements inside the OT will have to go. The settlements along the border are a more difficult question. Are they there because of natural expansion of israeli populated areas? (I have yet to see an example of this). Or are they there to delibratly make it difficult to bulid palestinian infrastructure, like the settlements built to separate Rammalah and Betlehem from East Jerusalem?
When you look at the maps its quite striking acctually how few of the settlements that are built along the border, so this is hardly a problem.
Like you said, the real point will have to be that the land is mostly linked together so that infrastructure can be built.
Gaza and the West Bank will have to be linked somehow. A special road would probably be the best solution. (since this is a much tried solution in the area).
The borders should work. After all they are a result of war not a UN deal. (this is how most borders where made in the old days).
If Israel wants a buffer. They can bulid it on Israeli turf. Maybe the Palestinians want a buffer too you know...
Forgive me for not giving Sharon any credit. But he did tell the settlers to "run and grab every hill they could".
The refugees will not be able to return, thats a sad fact. Israel/the UN should offer compesation. A neutral tribunal should be made to measure the losses.
Last, Jerusalem. No east Jerusalem no peace. easy shmeasy... how do we part it...?
The settlements inside the OT will have to go. The settlements along the border are a more difficult question. Are they there because of natural expansion of israeli populated areas?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes they are ! A good example is Jerusalem which has become Israel's most populous city with over 500,000 inhabitants .. that accounts for much of what you call the territorial gap between Ramalah and Jerusalem.
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
When you look at the maps its quite striking acctually how few of the settlements that are built along the border, so this is hardly a problem.
Like you said, the real point will have to be that the land is mostly linked together so that infrastructure can be built.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Everything can be sorted out when there is good will
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
Gaza and the West Bank will have to be linked somehow. A special road would probably be the best solution. (since this is a much tried solution in the area).
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Indeed that has already been offered by Barak in Camp David a raised road linking the West bank and Gaza.
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
The borders should work. After all they are a result of war not a UN deal. (this is how most borders where made in the old days).
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yup I agree !
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
Forgive me for not giving Sharon any credit. But he did tell the settlers to "run and grab every hill they could".
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Forgive me for not trusting Arafat and the PA after their terror and violence.
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
The refugees will not be able to return, thats a sad fact.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Tell it to the Palestinians they dont see it that way... but i off course agree
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
Israel/the UN should offer compesation. A neutral tribunal should be made to measure the losses.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Already suggested in Camp David as well....
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
Last, Jerusalem. No east Jerusalem no peace. easy shmeasy... how do we part it...? </strong><hr></blockquote>
Agreed .
Again this is a part of both the Taba map u posted and the Camp david proposals .... however the Old city of Jerusalem has four quarters .. Muslim, Jewish, Armenian and Christian... the area of the old city is just on the border of east and west Jerusalem, Barak offered Arafat control of the Temple mount where the Al-Aqssa mosque is and the Muslim quarter the Israelis would maintain control of the wailing wall under it, the Jewish quarter and the christian quarter ... Arafat demanded full control over the entire old city ... basically demanding Barak transfer the Jewish people's holiest site to palestinian control .... a travesty by all accounts !
[quote] Yes they are ! A good example is Jerusalem which has become Israel's most populous city with over 500,000 inhabitants .. that accounts for much of what you call the territorial gap between Ramalah and Jerusalem. <hr></blockquote>
It was a retorical question. You're smarter than that! Why are these settlements on the east side? (next to solely arab neighbourhoods?) Why is it that when the jewish population in Jerusalem only grows at a rate of 1%, while the arab is 3,5%, it is the Israelis that need the settlements?
East Jerusalem is after all almost only 1/4 of Jerusalm. Let them expand westward...
[quote] however the Old city of Jerusalem has four quarters .. Muslim, Jewish, Armenian and Christian... the area of the old city is just on the border of east and west Jerusalem, Barak offered Arafat control of the Temple mount where the Al-Aqssa mosque is and the Muslim quarter the Israelis would maintain control of the wailing wall under it, the Jewish quarter and the christian quarter ... Arafat demanded full control over the entire old city ... basically demanding Barak transfer the Jewish people's holiest site to palestinian control .... a travesty by all accounts ! <hr></blockquote>
Maybe some kind of shared control of the old city? Maybe under Armenian and Christian leadership? The old city is very clearly in East Jerusalem. And the muslem quarter is almost as big as the three others put together. But the important thing is to guarantee all faiths access to their holy sites.
It is also in everybodys interest to stop the grave and unjustifiable confiscation of arab property in the old city, and the expulsion of arab citizens that refuse israeli citizenship or are abroad too long.
Other than this we seem to mostly agree on many points. Lets see if we can iron out these few points.
who us? you seem to be alone in your boat, jonah. At least on these boards.
Debating solutions with Rashumon (is that from Kurosawa?) is much more rewarding than discussing falsification of history with you.
BTW: I have a tip for you; go to your local library, dig up some old issues of National Geographic Magazine, say the issue from March 1915, december 1927 and April 1934. And check out the Asia map supplement from december 1933. Then we can discuss history again. Or is the NGM from before the creation of the arab nations also propaganda?
<strong>who us? you seem to be alone in your boat, jonah. At least on these boards.
Debating solutions with Rashumon (is that from Kurosawa?) is much more rewarding than discussing falsification of history with you.
BTW: I have a tip for you; go to your local library, dig up some old issues of National Geographic Magazine, say the issue from March 1915, december 1927 and April 1934. And check out the Asia map supplement from december 1933. Then we can discuss history again. Or is the NGM from before the creation of the arab nations also propaganda?
[ 05-07-2002: Message edited by: New ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
heheh... you never cease to amuse me. Kissinger, it?s Noah and the ark, Jonah and the whale...
mika.
Edit:
PS. I love how you always have all this info at your fingertips. I assume it?s all in your Arab propaganda manual. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
I blame Hamas, or Jihad, or whoever did it. I blame anyone who use terrorist means. Its tragic and its a crime, period.
I also blame Israel and Sharon for their violent and unlawful behavior in the OT. This shows that last months actions haven't brought us an inch closer to a solution.
The terrorist actions will continue. The extreemist need to be isolated. But how can they be isolated as long as there is a legitimate struggle for freedom going on?
Hopefully the PA while take strong messures against Hamas. But expect Sharon to strike back with fury... Expect more civilan casulties...
[quote] PS. I love how you always have all this info at your fingertips. I assume it?s all in your Arab propaganda manual. <hr></blockquote>
To tell you the truth, I lent a cabin in the norwegian mountains last week. And I found, to my amasement, an entire bookshelf full of old National Geographic Magazines. So I plowed through every issue from 1932 to 36, and found all the articles and references myself. I couldn't bring the issues back, but I'm gonna try to get them from some old bookstore. The stuff in there was amazing. Travle reports from Afganistan in the 1930s and so on. Really interesting.
I blame Hamas, or Jihad, or whoever did it. I blame anyone who use terrorist means. Its tragic and its a crime, period.
I also blame Israel and Sharon for their violent and unlawful behavior in the OT. This shows that last months actions haven't brought us an inch closer to a solution.
The terrorist actions will continue. The extreemist need to be isolated. But how can they be isolated as long as there is a legitimate struggle for freedom going on?
Hopefully the PA while take strong messures against Hamas. But expect Sharon to strike back with fury... Expect more civilan casulties...
[ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: New ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ha ! you expect Arafat and the PA to take action ?
LOL
they never do , they never will, not until Araft is gone !
the only means that has proved to be effective against these mad man is the IDF ... the past weeks have been very quite ... Israel pulls out and bang Israelis die !
What do you seriously expect us to do ? give in to terror and just accept it ?
You see that we agree on the real longterm solution .. how can we get there though if Palestinians insist on killing us ?
FFS they could have had all that before the Intefada started without all this bloodshed...
For the Islamic world these little victories are an aproval from Allah. If they lose then they feel that Allah has abandoned them and it is a great shame.
Anyone know who won the Kentucky derby? (not the horse, the owner of the horse)
[quote] Ha ! you expect Arafat and the PA to take action ?
LOL
they never do , they never will, not until Araft is gone ! <hr></blockquote>
Well, I didn't say I expect it, I said "hopefully", maybe I should have added "this time". This attack couldn't come on a worse time. And don't give me that crap about Arafat being behind it all. His regime is obviously the part to loose the most from this...
[quote]You know what's the wost thing about it ?
its the terribe price the Palestinians are paying for their own stupidity ... they are really destroying any hope like this .. its soo sensles !
What in the hel are can they hope gaining from this ?!?! <hr></blockquote>
Again, you talk about the palestinians as one entity, the ordinary palestinian don't gain s**t from this, but then he hasn't gained s**t from the negotiations either...
The motive is obviously revenge again, as usual...
[quote] You see that we agree on the real longterm solution .. how can we get there though if Palestinians insist on killing us ? <hr></blockquote> Well, for once you could continue talking to the ones who are against the killing. Collective punishment is only gonna aspire more suicide attacks.
[quote] What Israel needs to do is be more forcefull in their defence. None of this pussyfooting. Get rid of the scourge (of terrorism). <hr></blockquote>
Do you really think last month was about "pussyfooting"? One can't defend oneself a 100% against terrorism. That is what makes it so bloody effective.
The only way to fight terror is to marginalize it. Make the users of it alienated from the rest. Calling all palestinians and the whole PA killers and terrorists achieves the opposite.
You would hardly lable all enviromantal activists murderers because of the recent killing in the Netherlands, would you?
But of course, if you want to crush someone, how convenient to label everyone "terrorist".
Well, I didn't say I expect it, I said "hopefully", maybe I should have added "this time". This attack couldn't come on a worse time. And don't give me that crap about Arafat being behind it all. His regime is obviously the part to loose the most from this...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why is that exactly ? how do you know what his motives are ? he is obviously behind other attacks why not this one ?
Are you expecting Israel to gamble on Arafats perceived motives with the lives of its people ?
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
Again, you talk about the palestinians as one entity, the ordinary palestinian don't gain s**t from this, but then he hasn't gained s**t from the negotiations either...
The motive is obviously revenge again, as usual...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well if they don't support this why don't they do something about it and why do they all support the suicides ? Hamas and Jihad don't operate in a vacuum you know ... why do the Palestinian people allow those murderers to operate in their cities and refugee camps ?
And to compare the repercussions of the violence to the results of the the Oslo process is really silly ! and you know that ! also you can't blame Israel for the shity way the PA was ruling the OT during the Oslo years .. its not our fault Palestinians chose a rubbish regime to lead them .....
New how can you say negotiations didn't give Palestinians squat ?... we have just agreed on a pretty comprehensive solution and that very solution has been offered to them in Camp david and then in Taba .... what's your point you are contradicting yourself .
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
Well, for once you could continue talking to the ones who are against the killing. Collective punishment is only gonna aspire more suicide attacks.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Like who ? Arafat is their leader he cuts all the calls he dumps any Palestinian who dares go around him and he is directly responsible to the violence.
Israel would love to talk to Abu Alah, Muhamad Dahlan, Seri Nuseybah etc..... but they don't dare, Arafat will fry their hide if they do !
And Israel isn't using collective punishment its fighting the terrorists who hide and use the Palestinian population as their shield ... if they didn't use their own people as cover these people would not have suffered from the results of the fighting. israel has nothing to gain by terrorising the population in the OT its doing it best to explain that to them and the world.
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
The only way to fight terror is to marginalize it. Make the users of it alienated from the rest. Calling all palestinians and the whole PA killers and terrorists achieves the opposite.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
That has been tried and it failed ! for years ! recently the only proven solution has been fighting it with the full force of the IDF
New, you cannot ignore the simple fact that the past few weeks have been the most quite for a while ... even if you disagree with the tactic you have to accept the results !
[quote] Why is that exactly ? how do you know what his motives are ? he is obviously behind other attacks why not this one ?
Are you expecting Israel to gamble on Arafats perceived motives with the lives of its people ? <hr></blockquote>
And how can you be so sure of this? I'd classify the whole occupation as a gamble with israeli lives. But Israel obviously has no problem gambling with palestinian lives also, judging from the statistics.
[quote] And Israel isn't using collective punishment its fighting the terrorists who hide and use the Palestinian population as their shield ...<hr></blockquote>
Yeah, confiscating trucks and destroying computer equipment is a great way of fighting terror. Not to mention demolishing civilian homes.
[quote]if they didn't use their own people as cover these people would not have suffered from the results of the fighting.<hr></blockquote>
No, they'd only be suffering from the occupation.
[quote] israel has nothing to gain by terrorising the population in the OT its doing it best to explain that to them and the world.<hr></blockquote>
[quote] That has been tried and it failed ! for years ! recently the only proven solution has been fighting it with the full force of the IDF
New, you cannot ignore the simple fact that the past few weeks have been the most quite for a while ... even if you disagree with the tactic you have to accept the results ! <hr></blockquote>
In my mind, what we saw yesterday in Tel Aviv was the result... What has been tried and failed is getting Israel to stop expanding the settlments. They almost doubled in the years after Oslo. This is also one of the direct causes of what we see now. And Sharon was right in the drivers seat most of the time.
Comments
<strong>So our main point of conflict seems to be about the pre-67 borders. The palestinians will never settle for less,
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well they will have to ! the pre 1967 borders are Unpractical these days 30 years have changed lots of things... anyway these borders were the 1950 ceasefire line, its not like these were some UN defined borders , even UN resolution 242 calls for a withdrawal to borders to be decided on during negotiations between the sides. yes the Palestinians will get around 97% of the land but they will have to be pragmatic and negotiate on the lines... that was never the problem anyway.... the sticking points at Camp David were the fact that Arafat insisted on 2 things israel would never give him:
1. Right of return for Palestinian refugees into all of Israel.
2. He wanted Palestinian control over Jerusalem's holy places including the Jewish walling wall and the Church of the holy sepulcher . basically he wanted full control of the Old city of Jerusalem.
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
there's no doubt about that. So if the conflict is about israeli security, then a withdrawal to the pre-67 borders is the only solution that will work in the long run. The alternatives are:
1. Constant martial law, which will be impossible to maintain, and will invoke international reactions sooner or later. or:
2. Full annexation. which is not an alternative to the political leadership in Israel, because the shere amount of palestinians citizens would treathen Israels status as a "jewish state".
(3. Annexation and expulsion of (parts of) the population of the OT. This not an alternative as the concequences would be dire.)
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You forget about the 4th and most possible option (which is becoming more and more feasible and popular in Israel ATM) that is a unilateral Israeli withdrawal from the OT to military viable lines with the creation of borders with heavy security apparatus and possible American and UK peace monitors. this will be quite bad for the Palestinians but it will finally eliminate the occupation and stop 99% of Palestinian terrorist attacks. we have this setup on the borders with Syria and Lebanon and although it has not provided Israel with peace it has definitely provided for security.
Its time for the Palestinians to get their act together and start negotiating seriously or else this will probably happen. either way the occupation is destined to end.
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
The question then remains: Is Israel occupying the territories just for security reasons or because they have aspirations for the land. As soon as we admit that these aspirations do exist, the sooner we can put an end to them. This is the only reasonable way forward.</strong><hr></blockquote>
NO question there, every poll on this point done in Israel proves that around 80% of Israelis want out of the OT ! ... the question is weather Palestinians and Arabs are willing to finally accept Israel's existence, forget about their dream of pushing us back into the sea and stop their terror coz if they don't they will have to learn to live with Israeli incursions into their land and a perpetual war.
2. He wanted Palestinian control over Jerusalem's holy places including the Jewish walling wall and the Church of the holy sepulcher . basically he wanted full control of the Old city of Jerusalem.
<hr></blockquote>
You forgot about the settlements. What does camp D say about them?
And why 97%? why not 103? there is plenty of land there not yet settled. Why does peace have to be a bazardeal?
[quote] You forget about the 4th and most possible option <hr></blockquote>
I listed the alternatives to withdrawal... Read the post
[quote] every poll on this point done in Israel proves that around 80% of Israelis want out of the OT ! <hr></blockquote>
So only (max) 20% israelis support the idea that the OT settlements should stay? Why then is Sharon in power? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
<strong>You forgot about the settlements. What does camp D say about them? (I know you know I know...)
And why 97%? why not 103? there is plenty of land there not yet settled. Why does peace have to be a bazardeal?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Camp David ( and Sharem) offered to dismantle most of the settlements deep inside the OT and incorporate large population clusters on the edge of the OT ( Israeli borders ) with Israel proper , in return the Palestinians would have received Israeli land which is unpopulated around the Gaza strip and the west bank a kind of a land trade if you like. the point is they will have their land their state and enough space for them to get back to real life.
Why does it have to be a bazardeal ? any peace is a result of negotiations .. call it bazardeal .. that's the way things work in our world.
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
I listed the alternatives to withdrawal... Read the post
</strong><hr></blockquote>
No you didn't list the alternative I mentioned ... if this happens the Palestinians will be in the shit coz their economy will be in trouble they will not have a decent system of transport between the west bank and Gaza. Also if this happens it will certainly be with borders that are nowhere near the pre 67 green line ... it will be borders drawn based on one consideration only .. the security of Israel ! which means they will almost certainly loose land.
They can't fight Israel and expect Israel to trust them .. they will loose out with this solution but as I said it will eliminate the occupation. and put the IDF in a better position to defend Israel from.
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
So only (max) 20% Israelis support the idea that the OT settlements should stay? Why then is Sharon in power?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
New, how simplistic can you be ? so anyone who supports Sharon supports the settlements ? even Sharon said Israel will have to make very big concessions once a real peace is negotiated on .. Sharon was the one who implemented the peace deal with Egypt he was the one who forcefully removed Israeli settlers from the Sinai peninsula before it was returned to Egypt. I don't get your question .. what are you trying to say ?
The basic and most important point about my post ( which you cleverly circumnavigated) is the issue of the right of return of refugees and the control of Jerusalem's old city ... these are the Mega sticking points not the points re borders of the Palestinian state.
I would like to know what you think of that !
The settlements inside the OT will have to go. The settlements along the border are a more difficult question. Are they there because of natural expansion of israeli populated areas? (I have yet to see an example of this). Or are they there to delibratly make it difficult to bulid palestinian infrastructure, like the settlements built to separate Rammalah and Betlehem from East Jerusalem?
When you look at the maps its quite striking acctually how few of the settlements that are built along the border, so this is hardly a problem.
Like you said, the real point will have to be that the land is mostly linked together so that infrastructure can be built.
Gaza and the West Bank will have to be linked somehow. A special road would probably be the best solution. (since this is a much tried solution in the area).
The borders should work. After all they are a result of war not a UN deal. (this is how most borders where made in the old days).
If Israel wants a buffer. They can bulid it on Israeli turf. Maybe the Palestinians want a buffer too you know...
Forgive me for not giving Sharon any credit. But he did tell the settlers to "run and grab every hill they could".
The refugees will not be able to return, thats a sad fact. Israel/the UN should offer compesation. A neutral tribunal should be made to measure the losses.
Last, Jerusalem. No east Jerusalem no peace. easy shmeasy... how do we part it...?
<strong>hmm... Your right, lets discuss the issues at hand. (If you really care about what the Camp David/Taba offer really was, see the map I posted <a href="http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=000843&p=17"; target="_blank"> here.</a>
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes i know that map very well....
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
The settlements inside the OT will have to go. The settlements along the border are a more difficult question. Are they there because of natural expansion of israeli populated areas?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes they are ! A good example is Jerusalem which has become Israel's most populous city with over 500,000 inhabitants .. that accounts for much of what you call the territorial gap between Ramalah and Jerusalem.
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
When you look at the maps its quite striking acctually how few of the settlements that are built along the border, so this is hardly a problem.
Like you said, the real point will have to be that the land is mostly linked together so that infrastructure can be built.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Everything can be sorted out when there is good will
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
Gaza and the West Bank will have to be linked somehow. A special road would probably be the best solution. (since this is a much tried solution in the area).
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Indeed that has already been offered by Barak in Camp David a raised road linking the West bank and Gaza.
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
The borders should work. After all they are a result of war not a UN deal. (this is how most borders where made in the old days).
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yup I agree !
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
Forgive me for not giving Sharon any credit. But he did tell the settlers to "run and grab every hill they could".
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Forgive me for not trusting Arafat and the PA after their terror and violence.
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
The refugees will not be able to return, thats a sad fact.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Tell it to the Palestinians they dont see it that way... but i off course agree
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
Israel/the UN should offer compesation. A neutral tribunal should be made to measure the losses.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Already suggested in Camp David as well....
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
Last, Jerusalem. No east Jerusalem no peace. easy shmeasy... how do we part it...?
Agreed .
Again this is a part of both the Taba map u posted and the Camp david proposals .... however the Old city of Jerusalem has four quarters .. Muslim, Jewish, Armenian and Christian... the area of the old city is just on the border of east and west Jerusalem, Barak offered Arafat control of the Temple mount where the Al-Aqssa mosque is and the Muslim quarter the Israelis would maintain control of the wailing wall under it, the Jewish quarter and the christian quarter ... Arafat demanded full control over the entire old city ... basically demanding Barak transfer the Jewish people's holiest site to palestinian control .... a travesty by all accounts !
It was a retorical question. You're smarter than that! Why are these settlements on the east side? (next to solely arab neighbourhoods?) Why is it that when the jewish population in Jerusalem only grows at a rate of 1%, while the arab is 3,5%, it is the Israelis that need the settlements?
East Jerusalem is after all almost only 1/4 of Jerusalm. Let them expand westward...
[quote] however the Old city of Jerusalem has four quarters .. Muslim, Jewish, Armenian and Christian... the area of the old city is just on the border of east and west Jerusalem, Barak offered Arafat control of the Temple mount where the Al-Aqssa mosque is and the Muslim quarter the Israelis would maintain control of the wailing wall under it, the Jewish quarter and the christian quarter ... Arafat demanded full control over the entire old city ... basically demanding Barak transfer the Jewish people's holiest site to palestinian control .... a travesty by all accounts ! <hr></blockquote>
Maybe some kind of shared control of the old city? Maybe under Armenian and Christian leadership? The old city is very clearly in East Jerusalem. And the muslem quarter is almost as big as the three others put together. But the important thing is to guarantee all faiths access to their holy sites.
It is also in everybodys interest to stop the grave and unjustifiable confiscation of arab property in the old city, and the expulsion of arab citizens that refuse israeli citizenship or are abroad too long.
Other than this we seem to mostly agree on many points. Lets see if we can iron out these few points.
mika.
Debating solutions with Rashumon (is that from Kurosawa?) is much more rewarding than discussing falsification of history with you.
BTW: I have a tip for you; go to your local library, dig up some old issues of National Geographic Magazine, say the issue from March 1915, december 1927 and April 1934. And check out the Asia map supplement from december 1933. Then we can discuss history again. Or is the NGM from before the creation of the arab nations also propaganda?
[ 05-07-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
<strong>who us? you seem to be alone in your boat, jonah. At least on these boards.
Debating solutions with Rashumon (is that from Kurosawa?) is much more rewarding than discussing falsification of history with you.
BTW: I have a tip for you; go to your local library, dig up some old issues of National Geographic Magazine, say the issue from March 1915, december 1927 and April 1934. And check out the Asia map supplement from december 1933. Then we can discuss history again. Or is the NGM from before the creation of the arab nations also propaganda?
[ 05-07-2002: Message edited by: New ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
And the reward is?
heheh... you never cease to amuse me. Kissinger, it?s Noah and the ark, Jonah and the whale...
mika.
Edit:
PS. I love how you always have all this info at your fingertips. I assume it?s all in your Arab propaganda manual. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
[ 05-07-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
This just in: New suicide attack in Tel Aviv...
Back to square one... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
[ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
I blame Hamas, or Jihad, or whoever did it. I blame anyone who use terrorist means. Its tragic and its a crime, period.
I also blame Israel and Sharon for their violent and unlawful behavior in the OT. This shows that last months actions haven't brought us an inch closer to a solution.
The terrorist actions will continue. The extreemist need to be isolated. But how can they be isolated as long as there is a legitimate struggle for freedom going on?
Hopefully the PA while take strong messures against Hamas. But expect Sharon to strike back with fury... Expect more civilan casulties...
[ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
To tell you the truth, I lent a cabin in the norwegian mountains last week. And I found, to my amasement, an entire bookshelf full of old National Geographic Magazines. So I plowed through every issue from 1932 to 36, and found all the articles and references myself. I couldn't bring the issues back, but I'm gonna try to get them from some old bookstore. The stuff in there was amazing. Travle reports from Afganistan in the 1930s and so on. Really interesting.
No propaganda manual needed, sorry!
You have GOT to be kidding me. The PA?
What Israel needs to do is be more forcefull in their defence. None of this pussyfooting. Get rid of the scourge (of terrorism).
<strong>Who to blame?
I blame Hamas, or Jihad, or whoever did it. I blame anyone who use terrorist means. Its tragic and its a crime, period.
I also blame Israel and Sharon for their violent and unlawful behavior in the OT. This shows that last months actions haven't brought us an inch closer to a solution.
The terrorist actions will continue. The extreemist need to be isolated. But how can they be isolated as long as there is a legitimate struggle for freedom going on?
Hopefully the PA while take strong messures against Hamas. But expect Sharon to strike back with fury... Expect more civilan casulties...
[ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: New ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ha ! you expect Arafat and the PA to take action ?
LOL
they never do , they never will, not until Araft is gone !
the only means that has proved to be effective against these mad man is the IDF ... the past weeks have been very quite ... Israel pulls out and bang Israelis die !
What do you seriously expect us to do ? give in to terror and just accept it ?
You see that we agree on the real longterm solution .. how can we get there though if Palestinians insist on killing us ?
FFS they could have had all that before the Intefada started without all this bloodshed...
its the terribe price the Palestinians are paying for their own stupidity ... they are really destroying any hope like this .. its soo sensles !
What in the hel are can they hope gaining from this ?!?!
Anyone know who won the Kentucky derby? (not the horse, the owner of the horse)
LOL
they never do , they never will, not until Araft is gone ! <hr></blockquote>
Well, I didn't say I expect it, I said "hopefully", maybe I should have added "this time". This attack couldn't come on a worse time. And don't give me that crap about Arafat being behind it all. His regime is obviously the part to loose the most from this...
[quote]You know what's the wost thing about it ?
its the terribe price the Palestinians are paying for their own stupidity ... they are really destroying any hope like this .. its soo sensles !
What in the hel are can they hope gaining from this ?!?! <hr></blockquote>
Again, you talk about the palestinians as one entity, the ordinary palestinian don't gain s**t from this, but then he hasn't gained s**t from the negotiations either...
The motive is obviously revenge again, as usual...
[quote] You see that we agree on the real longterm solution .. how can we get there though if Palestinians insist on killing us ? <hr></blockquote> Well, for once you could continue talking to the ones who are against the killing. Collective punishment is only gonna aspire more suicide attacks.
[quote] What Israel needs to do is be more forcefull in their defence. None of this pussyfooting. Get rid of the scourge (of terrorism). <hr></blockquote>
Do you really think last month was about "pussyfooting"? One can't defend oneself a 100% against terrorism. That is what makes it so bloody effective.
The only way to fight terror is to marginalize it. Make the users of it alienated from the rest. Calling all palestinians and the whole PA killers and terrorists achieves the opposite.
You would hardly lable all enviromantal activists murderers because of the recent killing in the Netherlands, would you?
But of course, if you want to crush someone, how convenient to label everyone "terrorist".
<strong>
Well, I didn't say I expect it, I said "hopefully", maybe I should have added "this time". This attack couldn't come on a worse time. And don't give me that crap about Arafat being behind it all. His regime is obviously the part to loose the most from this...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why is that exactly ? how do you know what his motives are ? he is obviously behind other attacks why not this one ?
Are you expecting Israel to gamble on Arafats perceived motives with the lives of its people ?
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
Again, you talk about the palestinians as one entity, the ordinary palestinian don't gain s**t from this, but then he hasn't gained s**t from the negotiations either...
The motive is obviously revenge again, as usual...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well if they don't support this why don't they do something about it and why do they all support the suicides ? Hamas and Jihad don't operate in a vacuum you know ... why do the Palestinian people allow those murderers to operate in their cities and refugee camps ?
And to compare the repercussions of the violence to the results of the the Oslo process is really silly ! and you know that ! also you can't blame Israel for the shity way the PA was ruling the OT during the Oslo years .. its not our fault Palestinians chose a rubbish regime to lead them .....
New how can you say negotiations didn't give Palestinians squat ?... we have just agreed on a pretty comprehensive solution and that very solution has been offered to them in Camp david and then in Taba .... what's your point you are contradicting yourself .
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
Well, for once you could continue talking to the ones who are against the killing. Collective punishment is only gonna aspire more suicide attacks.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Like who ? Arafat is their leader he cuts all the calls he dumps any Palestinian who dares go around him and he is directly responsible to the violence.
Israel would love to talk to Abu Alah, Muhamad Dahlan, Seri Nuseybah etc..... but they don't dare, Arafat will fry their hide if they do !
And Israel isn't using collective punishment its fighting the terrorists who hide and use the Palestinian population as their shield ... if they didn't use their own people as cover these people would not have suffered from the results of the fighting. israel has nothing to gain by terrorising the population in the OT its doing it best to explain that to them and the world.
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
The only way to fight terror is to marginalize it. Make the users of it alienated from the rest. Calling all palestinians and the whole PA killers and terrorists achieves the opposite.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
That has been tried and it failed ! for years ! recently the only proven solution has been fighting it with the full force of the IDF
New, you cannot ignore the simple fact that the past few weeks have been the most quite for a while ... even if you disagree with the tactic you have to accept the results !
Are you expecting Israel to gamble on Arafats perceived motives with the lives of its people ? <hr></blockquote>
And how can you be so sure of this? I'd classify the whole occupation as a gamble with israeli lives. But Israel obviously has no problem gambling with palestinian lives also, judging from the statistics.
[quote] And Israel isn't using collective punishment its fighting the terrorists who hide and use the Palestinian population as their shield ...<hr></blockquote>
Yeah, confiscating trucks and destroying computer equipment is a great way of fighting terror. Not to mention demolishing civilian homes.
[quote]if they didn't use their own people as cover these people would not have suffered from the results of the fighting.<hr></blockquote>
No, they'd only be suffering from the occupation.
[quote] israel has nothing to gain by terrorising the population in the OT its doing it best to explain that to them and the world.<hr></blockquote>
"Run and grab every hill"
"Run and grab every hill"
"Run and grab every hill"
-great explanation... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
[quote] That has been tried and it failed ! for years ! recently the only proven solution has been fighting it with the full force of the IDF
New, you cannot ignore the simple fact that the past few weeks have been the most quite for a while ... even if you disagree with the tactic you have to accept the results ! <hr></blockquote>
In my mind, what we saw yesterday in Tel Aviv was the result... What has been tried and failed is getting Israel to stop expanding the settlments. They almost doubled in the years after Oslo. This is also one of the direct causes of what we see now. And Sharon was right in the drivers seat most of the time.