As I have stated previously, I'm an engineer and have worked R&D for 20+ yrs. This was a Freshman Engineering student level screw-up. The most basic, the most primitive level of testing should have revealed this design flaw, unless this is a manufacturing defect from Foxconn.
So you conclude that it is more likely that Apple made a Freshman Engineering student level screw-up and neglected to perform the most primitive level of testing?
Personally, I am leaning more toward the alternative explanation, that it is a manufacturing
If this is true, it looks like Apple is going to try the old Denial route which it seems to have a lot of practice doing. Pretend the problem doesn't exist and see how many people actually complain. But if this problem affects a large number of iPhones, it could be a losing battle for Apple to keep denying the problem.
Of course, it's only been, what, a few days since the iPhone went on sale? I think this class action lawsuit is a bit premature, but, it might just help hold Apple's feet to the fire to take action faster and acknowledge the problem rather than dragging its feet and pretending the problem doesn't exist for as long as possible.
Apple should hire your wife to do hardware testing on the next iPhone.
It certainly is true. I called the nearest Apple store to me, Glasgow, Scotland, and they said they wouldn't give any cases away free.
The phone is otherwise perfect and so I'll keep it and get a case, but I'm pissed thoroughly pissed off the stingy bastards couldn't even offer a free case.
And it's something that people pushing for "tort reform" don't want you to think about. They would prefer to stir up resentment against "greedy lawyers", while obfuscating the fact that our legal system is based on "greedy lawyers" acting as a check on "greedy corporations". Remove the check without creating some new one (perhaps they would prefer more direct government involvement?) and the results are highly predictable.
So you conclude that it is more likely that Apple made a Freshman Engineering student level screw-up and neglected to perform the most primitive level of testing?
Personally, I am leaning more toward the alternative explanation, that it is a manufacturing
defect.
Well, there certainly seems to be something going on with "the seam" on at least some phones. If it turns out to be all phones, it's still possible that it's a manufacturing defect, but it's also possible that too much group-think led to the magnitude of the problem being dismissed.
Personally, I am leaning more toward the alternative explanation, that it is a manufacturing
defect.
If this was merely a a simple manufacturing defect, I would have expected Apple to have a response to this issue a long time ago. And Apple customer support is now telling customers a replacement phone will not fix their issue. It's obvious to me this issue is not a simple manufacturing defect, it's instead either a hardware (which I believe), or software flaw.
But whatever the case, Apple's denial an issue exists is very troublesome.
I think this iPhone shortage is a blessing in disguise. It will give potential iPhone 4 customers more time to absorb and become knowledgeable about this issue before making a purchase when they are finally widely available again.
If this was merely a a simple manufacturing defect, I would have expected Apple to have a response to this issue a long time ago. It's obvious to me this issue is not a simple manufacturing defect, it's instead either hardware (which I believe), or software flaw.
But whatever the case, Apple's denial an issue exists is very troublesome.
A long time ago? The first customers only received their phones a week ago.
I think it is reasonable for it to take at least a few days to completely diagnose a
If this was merely a a simple manufacturing defect, I would have expected Apple to have a response to this issue a long time ago. ...
That seems a little ridiculous. Whether it's a design flaw that they simply missed, a manufacturing defect (on some or all phones), a software issue, or something else, the iPhone 4 was officially released only last Friday. So given that it's only been in people's hands for 5 days, how could they possibly have had a response "a long time ago."
Five days is barely enough time for them to get some affected phones back and start investigating/confirming the problem, let alone fully understand it and possible fixes.
Jobs' email response was a horrible move from a PR perspective, but I think people screaming for Apple's blood at this point have gotten more than a bit carried away with themselves (and a class action suit seems obviously premature). It's completely insane to expect them to have a definitive answer and resolution in 5 days.
That doesn't mean we all have to pretend that there is absolutely no problem of any kind, but I think we do have to give Apple a chance to investigate and respond before we start knotting the rope.
So you conclude that it is more likely that Apple made a Freshman Engineering student level screw-up and neglected to perform the most primitive level of testing?
Personally, I am leaning more toward the alternative explanation, that it is a manufacturing
defect.
How did this manufacturing defect make it out the door? Final test should have caught this. In fact, a reasonable manufacturing process would have caught this immediately. When you mass produce anything, you have periodic checks within each lot; and manditory inspections at the beginning of each lot.
How did this manufacturing defect make it out the door? Final test should have caught this. In fact, a reasonable manufacturing process would have caught this immediately. When you mass produce anything, you have periodic checks within each lot; and manditory inspections at the beginning of each lot.
Obviously, this didn't happen.
Well, what if the people doing the checks at the factory are wearing gloves to avoid smudging the phones, which ended up masking the problem?
It's pretty easy to say there is no way they could have missed this. It's not so easy to devise a system of quality control that will never miss anything.
If this was merely a a simple manufacturing defect, I would have expected Apple to have a response to this issue a long time ago. And Apple customer support is now telling customers a replacement phone will not fix their issue. It's obvious to me this issue is not a simple manufacturing defect, it's instead either a hardware (which I believe), or software flaw.
But whatever the case, Apple's denial an issue exists is very troublesome.
"It's obvious to me this issue is not a simple manufacturing defect, it's instead either a hardware (which I believe), or software flaw."
Do you have info that no one else has? Are you an engineer or have technical or manufacturing degree or knowledge that would support that assumption?
Do you have some "inside knowledge" or facts that are not public?
You said this was a hardware issue? How did you come to that conclusion? What facts or data do you base this on?
We need more info before we can make assumptions that based on factual evidense.
Just because you believe it to be true...doesn't make it factual.......
You pointed this same very point out to me a few posts ago...rememeber?
I'm not experiencing substantially adverse iPhone 4 reception problems, no matter how I hold my device.
Consider this a notice that I wish to testify against your claim in this case. I request that you notify the court within 30 days of filing your claim that I request to be disposed as a witness against your claim, at your expense. I require you to notify me in writing that you have notified the court of my request, within 30 days of filing your claim.
"It's obvious to me this issue is not a simple manufacturing defect, it's instead either a hardware (which I believe), or software flaw."
Do you have info that no one else has? Are you an engineer or have technical or manufacturing degree or knowledge that would support that assumption?
Do you have some "inside knowledge" or facts that are not public?
You said this was a hardware issue? How did you come to that conclusion? What facts or data do you base this on?
We need more info before we can make assumptions that based on factual evidense.
Just because you believe it to be true...doesn't make it factual.......
You pointed this same very point out to me a few posts ago...rememeber?
Nope, I said obvious to me. Purely my opinion, not a fact like the ones you try to give about the percentage this issue affects. It's my opinion based upon personal observation, reading numerous articles from experts, Apple's denial and lack of response, and my logical deduction. But it's just my opinion. And Apple's continued denial and lack of response will fuel more people thinking the same way. But I could be completely wrong. I hope I am wrong, because I want an iPhone 4, but not in it's current flawed state.
It would be nice to get an official response from Apple along those lines. Apple support is telling customers a different story.
It would be nice, but companies are generally loathe to say there is definitely a problem at a point where they may not be sure if there is or, if there is, what it is. Mostly because initial reports or "admissions" of problems will be widely reported in the press and if they later determine that it's limited, etc. the press will largely be silent.
I think it's reasonable for them to remain silent on the issue for at least a few weeks, although, if it turns out to be a real and widespread problem, they've then put themselves on the hook for more sold phones during that time, with potentially a larger financial hit, or a bigger PR problem.
How did this manufacturing defect make it out the door? Final test should have caught this. In fact, a reasonable manufacturing process would have caught this immediately. When you mass produce anything, you have periodic checks within each lot; and manditory inspections at the beginning of each lot.
Obviously, this didn't happen.
It is not all that obvious. We know that the white version is delayed because of manufacturing
problems. We also know that many phones shipped with the screen bonding substance insufficiently cured, causing yellowish blotches on some screens. We don't know how many lots of black iPhones were rejected, because of spot checks. We don't know how extensive and well designed the final tests were. Finally, a certain portion of all manufacturing runs makes it out the door with defects. We don't have accurate statistics on the prevalence of the issue for iPhones, so
Nope, I said obvious to me. Purely my opinion, not a fact like the ones you try to give about the percentage this issue affects. I said several times, my opinion based upon personal observation, reading numerous articles from experts, Apple's denial and lack of response, and my logical deduction. But it's just my opinion. And Apple's continued denial and lack of response will fuel more people thinking the same way. But I could be completely wrong.
But my percentage quote was from an "APPLE STORE MANAGER" I did not make it up based on my assumptions.....
EDIT:
Here is your post...no where does it say this is "my opinion"
If this was merely a a simple manufacturing defect, I would have expected Apple to have a response to this issue a long time ago. And Apple customer support is now telling customers a replacement phone will not fix their issue. It's obvious to me this issue is not a simple manufacturing defect, it's instead either a hardware (which I believe), or software flaw.
But whatever the case, Apple's denial an issue exists is very troublesome.
I think this iPhone shortage is a blessing in disguise. It will give potential iPhone 4 customers more time to absorb and become knowledgeable about this issue before making a purchase when they are finally widely available again.
But my percentage quote was from an "APPLE STORE MANAGER" I did not make it up based on my assumptions.....
But you ran with that very limited data from one Apple store manager, that has many flaws we previously discussed, and painted it as a fact for the iPhone 4 issue. I just had to call you on how that limited data is very flawed.
But my percentage quote was from an "APPLE STORE MANAGER" I did not make it up based on my assumptions.....
EDIT:
Here is your post...no where does it say this is "my opinion"
If this was merely a a simple manufacturing defect, I would have expected Apple to have a response to this issue a long time ago. And Apple customer support is now telling customers a replacement phone will not fix their issue. It's obvious to me this issue is not a simple manufacturing defect, it's instead either a hardware (which I believe), or software flaw.
But whatever the case, Apple's denial an issue exists is very troublesome.
I think this iPhone shortage is a blessing in disguise. It will give potential iPhone 4 customers more time to absorb and become knowledgeable about this issue before making a purchase when they are finally widely available again.
I highlighted and underlined the places above where its obviously my opinion, not fact.
But you ran with that very limited data from one Apple store manager, that has many flaws we previously discussed, and painted it as a fact for the iPhone 4 issue. I just had to call you on how that limited data is very flawed.
you are correct i did run with that information. I also said where it came from and did not say it was pure fact.
If you went to an Apple store and the store manager told you "hey man...the signal loss issue is purely a hardware issue based on what I see in my store"
You would be touting that all over these threads......I have no doubt......
Comments
As I have stated previously, I'm an engineer and have worked R&D for 20+ yrs. This was a Freshman Engineering student level screw-up. The most basic, the most primitive level of testing should have revealed this design flaw, unless this is a manufacturing defect from Foxconn.
So you conclude that it is more likely that Apple made a Freshman Engineering student level screw-up and neglected to perform the most primitive level of testing?
Personally, I am leaning more toward the alternative explanation, that it is a manufacturing
defect.
If this is true, it looks like Apple is going to try the old Denial route which it seems to have a lot of practice doing. Pretend the problem doesn't exist and see how many people actually complain. But if this problem affects a large number of iPhones, it could be a losing battle for Apple to keep denying the problem.
Of course, it's only been, what, a few days since the iPhone went on sale? I think this class action lawsuit is a bit premature, but, it might just help hold Apple's feet to the fire to take action faster and acknowledge the problem rather than dragging its feet and pretending the problem doesn't exist for as long as possible.
Apple should hire your wife to do hardware testing on the next iPhone.
It certainly is true. I called the nearest Apple store to me, Glasgow, Scotland, and they said they wouldn't give any cases away free.
The phone is otherwise perfect and so I'll keep it and get a case, but I'm pissed thoroughly pissed off the stingy bastards couldn't even offer a free case.
And it's something that people pushing for "tort reform" don't want you to think about. They would prefer to stir up resentment against "greedy lawyers", while obfuscating the fact that our legal system is based on "greedy lawyers" acting as a check on "greedy corporations". Remove the check without creating some new one (perhaps they would prefer more direct government involvement?) and the results are highly predictable.
right dere widya bro
So you conclude that it is more likely that Apple made a Freshman Engineering student level screw-up and neglected to perform the most primitive level of testing?
Personally, I am leaning more toward the alternative explanation, that it is a manufacturing
defect.
Well, there certainly seems to be something going on with "the seam" on at least some phones. If it turns out to be all phones, it's still possible that it's a manufacturing defect, but it's also possible that too much group-think led to the magnitude of the problem being dismissed.
Personally, I am leaning more toward the alternative explanation, that it is a manufacturing
defect.
If this was merely a a simple manufacturing defect, I would have expected Apple to have a response to this issue a long time ago. And Apple customer support is now telling customers a replacement phone will not fix their issue. It's obvious to me this issue is not a simple manufacturing defect, it's instead either a hardware (which I believe), or software flaw.
But whatever the case, Apple's denial an issue exists is very troublesome.
I think this iPhone shortage is a blessing in disguise. It will give potential iPhone 4 customers more time to absorb and become knowledgeable about this issue before making a purchase when they are finally widely available again.
If this was merely a a simple manufacturing defect, I would have expected Apple to have a response to this issue a long time ago. It's obvious to me this issue is not a simple manufacturing defect, it's instead either hardware (which I believe), or software flaw.
But whatever the case, Apple's denial an issue exists is very troublesome.
A long time ago? The first customers only received their phones a week ago.
I think it is reasonable for it to take at least a few days to completely diagnose a
problem in a device as complex as the iPhone.
If this was merely a a simple manufacturing defect, I would have expected Apple to have a response to this issue a long time ago. ...
That seems a little ridiculous. Whether it's a design flaw that they simply missed, a manufacturing defect (on some or all phones), a software issue, or something else, the iPhone 4 was officially released only last Friday. So given that it's only been in people's hands for 5 days, how could they possibly have had a response "a long time ago."
Five days is barely enough time for them to get some affected phones back and start investigating/confirming the problem, let alone fully understand it and possible fixes.
Jobs' email response was a horrible move from a PR perspective, but I think people screaming for Apple's blood at this point have gotten more than a bit carried away with themselves (and a class action suit seems obviously premature). It's completely insane to expect them to have a definitive answer and resolution in 5 days.
That doesn't mean we all have to pretend that there is absolutely no problem of any kind, but I think we do have to give Apple a chance to investigate and respond before we start knotting the rope.
So you conclude that it is more likely that Apple made a Freshman Engineering student level screw-up and neglected to perform the most primitive level of testing?
Personally, I am leaning more toward the alternative explanation, that it is a manufacturing
defect.
How did this manufacturing defect make it out the door? Final test should have caught this. In fact, a reasonable manufacturing process would have caught this immediately. When you mass produce anything, you have periodic checks within each lot; and manditory inspections at the beginning of each lot.
Obviously, this didn't happen.
I think we do have to give Apple a chance to investigate and respond before we start knotting the rope.
It would be nice to get an official response from Apple along those lines. Apple support is telling customers a different story.
How did this manufacturing defect make it out the door? Final test should have caught this. In fact, a reasonable manufacturing process would have caught this immediately. When you mass produce anything, you have periodic checks within each lot; and manditory inspections at the beginning of each lot.
Obviously, this didn't happen.
Well, what if the people doing the checks at the factory are wearing gloves to avoid smudging the phones, which ended up masking the problem?
It's pretty easy to say there is no way they could have missed this. It's not so easy to devise a system of quality control that will never miss anything.
If this was merely a a simple manufacturing defect, I would have expected Apple to have a response to this issue a long time ago. And Apple customer support is now telling customers a replacement phone will not fix their issue. It's obvious to me this issue is not a simple manufacturing defect, it's instead either a hardware (which I believe), or software flaw.
But whatever the case, Apple's denial an issue exists is very troublesome.
"It's obvious to me this issue is not a simple manufacturing defect, it's instead either a hardware (which I believe), or software flaw."
Do you have info that no one else has? Are you an engineer or have technical or manufacturing degree or knowledge that would support that assumption?
Do you have some "inside knowledge" or facts that are not public?
You said this was a hardware issue? How did you come to that conclusion? What facts or data do you base this on?
We need more info before we can make assumptions that based on factual evidense.
Just because you believe it to be true...doesn't make it factual.......
You pointed this same very point out to me a few posts ago...rememeber?
===============
To: jwilkinson@kcrlegal.com
cc: wkershaw@kcrlegal.com, bcutter@kcrlegal.com, eratinoff@kcrlegal.com
I'm not experiencing substantially adverse iPhone 4 reception problems, no matter how I hold my device.
Consider this a notice that I wish to testify against your claim in this case. I request that you notify the court within 30 days of filing your claim that I request to be disposed as a witness against your claim, at your expense. I require you to notify me in writing that you have notified the court of my request, within 30 days of filing your claim.
<my name>
<my address>
===============
"It's obvious to me this issue is not a simple manufacturing defect, it's instead either a hardware (which I believe), or software flaw."
Do you have info that no one else has? Are you an engineer or have technical or manufacturing degree or knowledge that would support that assumption?
Do you have some "inside knowledge" or facts that are not public?
You said this was a hardware issue? How did you come to that conclusion? What facts or data do you base this on?
We need more info before we can make assumptions that based on factual evidense.
Just because you believe it to be true...doesn't make it factual.......
You pointed this same very point out to me a few posts ago...rememeber?
Nope, I said obvious to me. Purely my opinion, not a fact like the ones you try to give about the percentage this issue affects. It's my opinion based upon personal observation, reading numerous articles from experts, Apple's denial and lack of response, and my logical deduction. But it's just my opinion. And Apple's continued denial and lack of response will fuel more people thinking the same way. But I could be completely wrong. I hope I am wrong, because I want an iPhone 4, but not in it's current flawed state.
It would be nice to get an official response from Apple along those lines. Apple support is telling customers a different story.
It would be nice, but companies are generally loathe to say there is definitely a problem at a point where they may not be sure if there is or, if there is, what it is. Mostly because initial reports or "admissions" of problems will be widely reported in the press and if they later determine that it's limited, etc. the press will largely be silent.
I think it's reasonable for them to remain silent on the issue for at least a few weeks, although, if it turns out to be a real and widespread problem, they've then put themselves on the hook for more sold phones during that time, with potentially a larger financial hit, or a bigger PR problem.
How did this manufacturing defect make it out the door? Final test should have caught this. In fact, a reasonable manufacturing process would have caught this immediately. When you mass produce anything, you have periodic checks within each lot; and manditory inspections at the beginning of each lot.
Obviously, this didn't happen.
It is not all that obvious. We know that the white version is delayed because of manufacturing
problems. We also know that many phones shipped with the screen bonding substance insufficiently cured, causing yellowish blotches on some screens. We don't know how many lots of black iPhones were rejected, because of spot checks. We don't know how extensive and well designed the final tests were. Finally, a certain portion of all manufacturing runs makes it out the door with defects. We don't have accurate statistics on the prevalence of the issue for iPhones, so
we can't say with certainty that it is excessive.
Nope, I said obvious to me. Purely my opinion, not a fact like the ones you try to give about the percentage this issue affects. I said several times, my opinion based upon personal observation, reading numerous articles from experts, Apple's denial and lack of response, and my logical deduction. But it's just my opinion. And Apple's continued denial and lack of response will fuel more people thinking the same way. But I could be completely wrong.
But my percentage quote was from an "APPLE STORE MANAGER" I did not make it up based on my assumptions.....
EDIT:
Here is your post...no where does it say this is "my opinion"
If this was merely a a simple manufacturing defect, I would have expected Apple to have a response to this issue a long time ago. And Apple customer support is now telling customers a replacement phone will not fix their issue. It's obvious to me this issue is not a simple manufacturing defect, it's instead either a hardware (which I believe), or software flaw.
But whatever the case, Apple's denial an issue exists is very troublesome.
I think this iPhone shortage is a blessing in disguise. It will give potential iPhone 4 customers more time to absorb and become knowledgeable about this issue before making a purchase when they are finally widely available again.
... I request to be disposed as a witness against your claim ...
Risky language. Haven't you ever read any John Grisham? "... disposed, with extreme prejudice."
Personally, I'd request to be deposed, if I were you.
But my percentage quote was from an "APPLE STORE MANAGER" I did not make it up based on my assumptions.....
But you ran with that very limited data from one Apple store manager, that has many flaws we previously discussed, and painted it as a fact for the iPhone 4 issue. I just had to call you on how that limited data is very flawed.
But my percentage quote was from an "APPLE STORE MANAGER" I did not make it up based on my assumptions.....
EDIT:
Here is your post...no where does it say this is "my opinion"
If this was merely a a simple manufacturing defect, I would have expected Apple to have a response to this issue a long time ago. And Apple customer support is now telling customers a replacement phone will not fix their issue. It's obvious to me this issue is not a simple manufacturing defect, it's instead either a hardware (which I believe), or software flaw.
But whatever the case, Apple's denial an issue exists is very troublesome.
I think this iPhone shortage is a blessing in disguise. It will give potential iPhone 4 customers more time to absorb and become knowledgeable about this issue before making a purchase when they are finally widely available again.
I highlighted and underlined the places above where its obviously my opinion, not fact.
But you ran with that very limited data from one Apple store manager, that has many flaws we previously discussed, and painted it as a fact for the iPhone 4 issue. I just had to call you on how that limited data is very flawed.
you are correct i did run with that information. I also said where it came from and did not say it was pure fact.
If you went to an Apple store and the store manager told you "hey man...the signal loss issue is purely a hardware issue based on what I see in my store"
You would be touting that all over these threads......I have no doubt......