So they all drop signal strength when engulfed in the hand, no surprise. But why keep comparing the meaningless visual display of signal loss to every other phone but only compare the rate of dropped calls to the 3GS?
If Apple wants to silence the critics or show a meaningful comparison show the raw data, not a cheap visual demo that really tells nothing.
There's a good point there I haven't thought of.
And I was wondering, seeing all those other phones dropping bars, why haven't we heard complains about them so far? Some of them did/do sell well enough to have critical mass of users to be heard.
And I was wondering, seeing all those other phones dropping bars, why haven't we heard complains about them so far? Some of them did/do sell well enough to have critical mass of users to be heard.
Well, I have had experience with this in the past with AT&T. What happens is basically nothing. If you drop a lot of calls, you call AT&T and they assign a trouble ticket to your number. About a day later an AT&T engineer calls you and tells you that they are monitoring your signal and are trying to pinpoint when and where your calls get dropped and if it's because of the network, or your phone, or your Sim. Another few days go by and then another call is made to tell you that they can't pinpoint what happened and chock it up to temporary network congestion. Then they close the ticket until you call again which for some strange reason doesn't happen for another month. I have had that happen with Nokia, Sony Ericsson, and Palm Treo phones since about 98.
The manufactures of the phones blame the network and they will offer to replace your phone, but that has never solved the problem. With the way the iPhone 4 is designed, it's easier to blame the phone since you can replicate the problem almost every time since it tells you that it has no signal. Whereas the other phones will still tell you they have signal, but you can't use the phone when you dial out or if someone calls you.
That's what I see, and that's why other phone manufacturers are crying foul. Not that the phone lost the signal, but that it doesn't accurately tell you when it lost it, i.e., you're still seeing bars when you really have none.
And I was wondering, seeing all those other phones dropping bars, why haven't we heard complains about them so far? Some of them did/do sell well enough to have critical mass of users to be heard.
The only reason Apple is only one with a video like that is because it is the only one where the spot is easily seen. It, however, is the same with the other phones. There just isn't an X mark the spot making it easier to find. If you touch the Droid Aris with one finger underneath you can loss a couple of bars. Arguably, Apple's method is better because you know right where the weak spot is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by donlphi
I watched these videos and I don't see one video where I can touch a part of the phone with one finger and remove all data. iPhone 4 is the only phone with a video like that.
I love my iPhone, but it has a much worse antennae than any you have listed below.
Everything you've said here just boils down to ... "It's a lie because Apple's iPhone 4 is more sensitive to these issues."
The fact is though, that Apple has admitted all along that the iPhone 4 is more sensitive to these issues, and they purposely designed the antenna that way. What you are leaving out also, is the part where *because* the iPhone 4's antenna is so sensitive, it drops less calls in marginal areas than other phones.
Yes, iPhone 4 has a very sensitive antenna. That's pretty much the whole point of the thing. All you have to do is hold it normally and you will get better reception and fewer dropped calls than any other phone. If you insist on clapping it to your head like a moron with your giant hand wrapped around it and if you are in a low signal area you might find some degradation of the signal (although it most likely won't drop a call).
I understand that some people have sweaty hands, and that some people are not as dexterous as others and have to hold the phone in that unusual way and so they *might* see a *slight* increase in dropped calls, but that's the essential trade-off of the iPhone 4 design. A better antenna, that's more sensitive, but with an obvious weak spot that you have to avoid.
If you don't like it, buy some other phone. It's not a flaw, it's a design choice made on purpose.
It is still a flaw designers have chosen to go with. And it seems to be backfiring a bit more than they were expecting.
I hold my phone on my left hand and while I hold it only my fingers are in contact with the phone, not my ENTIRE palm. And don't go telling me that Im un-natural.
Nope your're not un-natural because I to hold my 3Gs the same way "so when I do get a 4 this will not be a problem for me either
I hold my phone on my left hand and while I hold it only my fingers are in contact with the phone, not my ENTIRE palm. And don't go telling me that Im un-natural.
I'll just say you're gripping the phone too tightly...
BTW, I'm working on my own grip on my 3GS. Much more tight then correct.
people are saying that it's unfair to apple to single out other manufacturers, but i don't blame them. with he kind of flak they generate for the tiniest problem in their products, other companies that aren't at the center of attention in the industry make products that have much more severe flaws. some are bugs, some are just poor design decisions that make the experience worse than any apple antenna problem.
once you have a story of apple messing up, every 2 bit journalist wants a piece of the consumer backlash. quite frankly, the only consumer brands that your regular joe shmoe even knows anything about are apple, microsoft, and google, and the rest of the technology companies out there are a sea of sameness.
apple is merely pointing out that all phones have a problem spot. it's simple physics. if you stick a phone between your butt cheeks, you bet your ass it's going to get terrible reception.
any left or right hander can avoid the problem spot on an iphone without even thinking about it. it's sad that they even have to give away bumpers, and it's only because of the ridiculous media coverage this issue is getting.
Ok ive read the past 6 or so pages of repetitive circulative arguments.
But heres something that i want to throw out to people about this "death grip" for lefties.
Below is a picture of the iPhone4 antennas.
Note that the one on the left hand side is for..... thats right bluetooth WIFI and GPS.
Now i mention this because it seems strange that if a lefty holds the phone in their hand and faces the screen to their face it is the GPS antenna that is touching the palm and not the GSM one.
So by all logic to the arguments this means that the antenna issue should infact target RIGHTIES more.
but it doesn't.
So what does this mean?
Well basically the issue is 2 fold. First of all the reception "bars" issue made those that are on AT&T feel like they had deception when they didn't.
OK Apple can take some of the blame for this and have since released a patch so not really an ongoing issue unless you have not updated.
Lastly there is the issue of AT&T actually hiding behind the complaints aimed at Apple and all the time knowing that somewhere in their agreement there is a clause that states that Apple can not blame AT&Ts service or lack there of for reception issues.
I mention this last one because it seems that what we are finding is that networks that were almost at saturation point as it was, are hurting even more now the iPhone 4 is out and the issues that we are seeing are actually linked closer to that fact than a manufacturing one.
It will be interesting too see if the same results can be replicated here in Australia as we have 4 main GSM networks. One that is at saturation point (optus), two that have limited but strong coverage (vodafone/3) and one that has amazing coverage but is really bloody expensive (telstra).
Lets see if the results match the US results in regards to the dropped calls once tested on a variety of networks in the one location.
When you hold the phone naturally with the corner resting in your palm, your palm comes into contact with the spot that you need to touch to make the iPhone 4's signal drop significantly.
So even if you can't hold the iPhone 4 with one finger, you can replicate the effect with a natural hold.
That feature doesn't work on my iPhone 4!!! I can touch that seam for long minutes at a time and the packets don't drop, the call doesn't drop, I am pissed that my iPhone doesn't function like the video suggests ALL iPhone 4s act when you do that!!!!
Apple screwed me out of that feature and I want my money back!!!!!!
OR
there was an iPhone 4 that had a reception issue. Oh wait - let's say a FEW iPhone 4s had reception issues and someone made a video out of it instead of taking the bloody thing back to the bloody store and getting it exchanged for one that didn't exhibit that property.
Do you own an iPhone 4 freddych? And does it do that? Or not? Now I could put a video on youtube that shows my iPhone 4 NOT losing connectivity by touching it with one finger - or death grip or left-handed palm rest or whatever - but who the heck would bother watch it? ANd what would it demonstrate? That my iPhone 4 doesn't show the same reaction to contact that the iPhone 4 in the video. In light of over 3 million iPhone 4s either case is statistically insignificant.
What's Apple's point? Other companies are as shit as them? This would have all blown over in a few months if they just left it with the free bumpers...
What's Apple's point? Other companies are as shit as them? This would have all blown over in a few months if they just left it with the free bumpers...
Let's say nobody realized tires can go flat until one day Goodyear brings out a new line of tires that's supposed to be better than any other; people start buying them and inevitably hitting nails in the road. Buyers start posting videos on youtube showing that if they stab a nail into the tire, it goes flat. Then the media makes a huge deal about these new Goodyear tires that are apparently going flat left and right, leaving furious buyers abandoned on the sides of roads all over the country. Every day is met with a new report from an "analyst" reporting how many billions it's going to cost Goodyear to recall every single one of these tires. Consumer reports is recommending not buying these new flattening tires from Goodyear, and every person on the street asks you if you've been having that go-flat problem with your new Goodyear tires.
Remember, in this analogy at this point in time no one has noticed that all tires will go flat if you hit a nail. Would you expect Goodyear to simply keep their mouths shut and patch everyone's tires for free, without ever pointing out that getting a flat when you hit a nail is not exclusive to their new tire line, or even Goodyear tires in general?
... the clamminess of the individual is unique to the individual, along with the physiology and biochemistry of the individual are always different in ways that will or will not impact the signal.
So slimy class-action contingency-fee-hunting lawyers get the biggest signal drop?
Would you expect Goodyear to simply keep their mouths shut and patch everyone's tires for free, without ever pointing out that getting a flat when you hit a nail is not exclusive to their new tire line, or even Goodyear tires in general?
I wouldn't care what they did, as long as it didn't result in every man and his dog suddenly thinking they were bloody electrical engineers.
The IP4 has detuning issues that, whilst not unique, are not common. However there happens to be a fix... you either stop being a fat sweaty person living in a low signal area, or you get a free bumper. Problem solved.
With the bumper in place the IP4 has the same crap attenuation issues that a lot of other phones do.
They should have left it with that. This concentrated attempt to make their competitors look bad so they look better is contemptible. It makes them look weak. I don't like when people act like that and I don't like it when companies do either.
The IP4 is more than capable of selling based on its own merits.
It is not a question of the phone's merits or drawbacks. It is a question of how Apple as a company deals with it's customers. This action by Apple could have been done more gracefully and possibly a little earlier.
I think it is fair for Apple to pick on the competitors as they started to pretend that they were holier than thou with regard to attenuation.
Thorns in wrong side, Apple. Engineering companies were rather with you in the antenna hogwash until you've got started on calling their products out. They are engineers, you know, and they're living all that out, too.
Wait, I've got an idea. Your engineering class: A, your overall marketing class: AAA+, your PR class: C. You have $45B all in cash. See where to invest?
Comments
So they all drop signal strength when engulfed in the hand, no surprise. But why keep comparing the meaningless visual display of signal loss to every other phone but only compare the rate of dropped calls to the 3GS?
If Apple wants to silence the critics or show a meaningful comparison show the raw data, not a cheap visual demo that really tells nothing.
There's a good point there I haven't thought of.
And I was wondering, seeing all those other phones dropping bars, why haven't we heard complains about them so far? Some of them did/do sell well enough to have critical mass of users to be heard.
There's a good point there I haven't thought of.
And I was wondering, seeing all those other phones dropping bars, why haven't we heard complains about them so far? Some of them did/do sell well enough to have critical mass of users to be heard.
Well, I have had experience with this in the past with AT&T. What happens is basically nothing. If you drop a lot of calls, you call AT&T and they assign a trouble ticket to your number. About a day later an AT&T engineer calls you and tells you that they are monitoring your signal and are trying to pinpoint when and where your calls get dropped and if it's because of the network, or your phone, or your Sim. Another few days go by and then another call is made to tell you that they can't pinpoint what happened and chock it up to temporary network congestion. Then they close the ticket until you call again which for some strange reason doesn't happen for another month. I have had that happen with Nokia, Sony Ericsson, and Palm Treo phones since about 98.
The manufactures of the phones blame the network and they will offer to replace your phone, but that has never solved the problem. With the way the iPhone 4 is designed, it's easier to blame the phone since you can replicate the problem almost every time since it tells you that it has no signal. Whereas the other phones will still tell you they have signal, but you can't use the phone when you dial out or if someone calls you.
That's what I see, and that's why other phone manufacturers are crying foul. Not that the phone lost the signal, but that it doesn't accurately tell you when it lost it, i.e., you're still seeing bars when you really have none.
And I was wondering, seeing all those other phones dropping bars, why haven't we heard complains about them so far? Some of them did/do sell well enough to have critical mass of users to be heard.
Apparently not.
I watched these videos and I don't see one video where I can touch a part of the phone with one finger and remove all data. iPhone 4 is the only phone with a video like that.
I love my iPhone, but it has a much worse antennae than any you have listed below.
Keep it real!
I reviewed a sampling of the videos that someone linked to, none documents whether signal is actually lost, aka a call dropped or data transfer stops.
Can someone link me to a video that documents that on a phone other than the iP4?
Everything you've said here just boils down to ... "It's a lie because Apple's iPhone 4 is more sensitive to these issues."
The fact is though, that Apple has admitted all along that the iPhone 4 is more sensitive to these issues, and they purposely designed the antenna that way. What you are leaving out also, is the part where *because* the iPhone 4's antenna is so sensitive, it drops less calls in marginal areas than other phones.
Yes, iPhone 4 has a very sensitive antenna. That's pretty much the whole point of the thing. All you have to do is hold it normally and you will get better reception and fewer dropped calls than any other phone. If you insist on clapping it to your head like a moron with your giant hand wrapped around it and if you are in a low signal area you might find some degradation of the signal (although it most likely won't drop a call).
I understand that some people have sweaty hands, and that some people are not as dexterous as others and have to hold the phone in that unusual way and so they *might* see a *slight* increase in dropped calls, but that's the essential trade-off of the iPhone 4 design. A better antenna, that's more sensitive, but with an obvious weak spot that you have to avoid.
If you don't like it, buy some other phone. It's not a flaw, it's a design choice made on purpose.
It is still a flaw designers have chosen to go with. And it seems to be backfiring a bit more than they were expecting.
Apparently not.
Yes, apparently problem was not that obvious as with iP4.
If you squeeze Nokia too tighly it drops it's CEO?
I had to say it!
I have to re-quote it!
I hold my phone on my left hand and while I hold it only my fingers are in contact with the phone, not my ENTIRE palm. And don't go telling me that Im un-natural.
Nope your're not un-natural because I to hold my 3Gs the same way "so when I do get a 4 this will not be a problem for me either
I hold my phone on my left hand and while I hold it only my fingers are in contact with the phone, not my ENTIRE palm. And don't go telling me that Im un-natural.
I'll just say you're gripping the phone too tightly...
BTW, I'm working on my own grip on my 3GS. Much more tight then correct.
once you have a story of apple messing up, every 2 bit journalist wants a piece of the consumer backlash. quite frankly, the only consumer brands that your regular joe shmoe even knows anything about are apple, microsoft, and google, and the rest of the technology companies out there are a sea of sameness.
apple is merely pointing out that all phones have a problem spot. it's simple physics. if you stick a phone between your butt cheeks, you bet your ass it's going to get terrible reception.
any left or right hander can avoid the problem spot on an iphone without even thinking about it. it's sad that they even have to give away bumpers, and it's only because of the ridiculous media coverage this issue is getting.
But heres something that i want to throw out to people about this "death grip" for lefties.
Below is a picture of the iPhone4 antennas.
Note that the one on the left hand side is for..... thats right bluetooth WIFI and GPS.
Now i mention this because it seems strange that if a lefty holds the phone in their hand and faces the screen to their face it is the GPS antenna that is touching the palm and not the GSM one.
So by all logic to the arguments this means that the antenna issue should infact target RIGHTIES more.
but it doesn't.
So what does this mean?
Well basically the issue is 2 fold. First of all the reception "bars" issue made those that are on AT&T feel like they had deception when they didn't.
OK Apple can take some of the blame for this and have since released a patch so not really an ongoing issue unless you have not updated.
Lastly there is the issue of AT&T actually hiding behind the complaints aimed at Apple and all the time knowing that somewhere in their agreement there is a clause that states that Apple can not blame AT&Ts service or lack there of for reception issues.
I mention this last one because it seems that what we are finding is that networks that were almost at saturation point as it was, are hurting even more now the iPhone 4 is out and the issues that we are seeing are actually linked closer to that fact than a manufacturing one.
It will be interesting too see if the same results can be replicated here in Australia as we have 4 main GSM networks. One that is at saturation point (optus), two that have limited but strong coverage (vodafone/3) and one that has amazing coverage but is really bloody expensive (telstra).
Lets see if the results match the US results in regards to the dropped calls once tested on a variety of networks in the one location.
When you hold the phone naturally with the corner resting in your palm, your palm comes into contact with the spot that you need to touch to make the iPhone 4's signal drop significantly.
So even if you can't hold the iPhone 4 with one finger, you can replicate the effect with a natural hold.
That feature doesn't work on my iPhone 4!!! I can touch that seam for long minutes at a time and the packets don't drop, the call doesn't drop, I am pissed that my iPhone doesn't function like the video suggests ALL iPhone 4s act when you do that!!!!
Apple screwed me out of that feature and I want my money back!!!!!!
OR
there was an iPhone 4 that had a reception issue. Oh wait - let's say a FEW iPhone 4s had reception issues and someone made a video out of it instead of taking the bloody thing back to the bloody store and getting it exchanged for one that didn't exhibit that property.
Do you own an iPhone 4 freddych? And does it do that? Or not? Now I could put a video on youtube that shows my iPhone 4 NOT losing connectivity by touching it with one finger - or death grip or left-handed palm rest or whatever - but who the heck would bother watch it? ANd what would it demonstrate? That my iPhone 4 doesn't show the same reaction to contact that the iPhone 4 in the video. In light of over 3 million iPhone 4s either case is statistically insignificant.
What's Apple's point? Other companies are as shit as them? This would have all blown over in a few months if they just left it with the free bumpers...
Let's say nobody realized tires can go flat until one day Goodyear brings out a new line of tires that's supposed to be better than any other; people start buying them and inevitably hitting nails in the road. Buyers start posting videos on youtube showing that if they stab a nail into the tire, it goes flat. Then the media makes a huge deal about these new Goodyear tires that are apparently going flat left and right, leaving furious buyers abandoned on the sides of roads all over the country. Every day is met with a new report from an "analyst" reporting how many billions it's going to cost Goodyear to recall every single one of these tires. Consumer reports is recommending not buying these new flattening tires from Goodyear, and every person on the street asks you if you've been having that go-flat problem with your new Goodyear tires.
Remember, in this analogy at this point in time no one has noticed that all tires will go flat if you hit a nail. Would you expect Goodyear to simply keep their mouths shut and patch everyone's tires for free, without ever pointing out that getting a flat when you hit a nail is not exclusive to their new tire line, or even Goodyear tires in general?
It is still a flaw designers have chosen to go with. And it seems to be backfiring a bit more than they were expecting.
thing is, it's only backfiring online, not in real-world use for 99% of users.
... the clamminess of the individual is unique to the individual, along with the physiology and biochemistry of the individual are always different in ways that will or will not impact the signal.
So slimy class-action contingency-fee-hunting lawyers get the biggest signal drop?
Oh, and trolls under the bridge too?
Would you expect Goodyear to simply keep their mouths shut and patch everyone's tires for free, without ever pointing out that getting a flat when you hit a nail is not exclusive to their new tire line, or even Goodyear tires in general?
I wouldn't care what they did, as long as it didn't result in every man and his dog suddenly thinking they were bloody electrical engineers.
The IP4 has detuning issues that, whilst not unique, are not common. However there happens to be a fix... you either stop being a fat sweaty person living in a low signal area, or you get a free bumper. Problem solved.
With the bumper in place the IP4 has the same crap attenuation issues that a lot of other phones do.
They should have left it with that. This concentrated attempt to make their competitors look bad so they look better is contemptible. It makes them look weak. I don't like when people act like that and I don't like it when companies do either.
The IP4 is more than capable of selling based on its own merits.
I think it is fair for Apple to pick on the competitors as they started to pretend that they were holier than thou with regard to attenuation.
Wait, I've got an idea. Your engineering class: A, your overall marketing class: AAA+, your PR class: C. You have $45B all in cash. See where to invest?